Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

father Smirnoff (you are a priest, eh?)- first of all I have to say that your namesake gave me severe wobblies the other night. Took a good 48 hours to get back on the straight and narrow.

I think we agree. The biggest problem is the schedule and number of matches. Problem is that its all driven by the need for money to fund the game. And everyone involved is at fault, the clubs, regions and national unions are all ravenously hungry for money. No one anywhere is really looking at the big picture. Very myopic at the moment.

Then the holiday derbies. These need to be big events. This is where we get the more casual supporters or the folks who are Rugby fans, but are careful where they spend. We must entertain them. The more big crowds, the more money into the game and the greater chance (albeit slim) of limiting the seasons.

red_stag wrote:Also worth remembering England.and France are larger with more teams so losing internationals is spread across all teama. I can see the Pro 12 ending up in conferences in the long run. Local games attract highest crowds. So the Welsh play each other and then the best plays thr best Iriah, Scots.and Italian team.

This makes perfect sense, and could be one of the solutions.

As an aside, the English and French clubs lose players to England and France, but sometime significant numbers to other nations as well. Though not consistent across all the English and French clubs, Saints, Leicester and Toulon lost more than half their starters during the RWC. Saracens only a few.

It's called squad rotation and it is a must do in sport. Munster, Leinster and Scarlets have done it very well. Besides, you can't build strength in depth without giving players game time. That is how we do it where as the French just buy the best players. Unless you have a suggestion on how we could improve the Rabo?

It's an awful league.
It is not respected and the whole season is a mush mash. The whole structure is poor.
Last season, Edinburgh and Glasgow both took their top internationals out of their teams, to save them for the WC. This completely throws the league. They both dropped down the league like a stone. Do they get punished for losing home games, when they've beaten other with a full team? No, they are guaranteed automatic qualification into the Heineken. Just look at Ulster's boxing day game in Leinster. 5 debutante played and they get hammered. You can call it squad rotation, but they made a full 15 changes for last nights game.
Let's be honest, the Heineken cup is the ultimate and the league is a distant second.
I'm also not a fan of the scheduling. I hate Sunday games, especially at 5pm. The games are just staggered around the weekend and it makes it pretty impossible to support your team away. Also there are barely any games played on a Saturday afternoon.
People can argue that when the Irish provinces win the Heineken, that they come from the Celtic league, so it must be a good league. There are some very good teams in the Rabies Pro 12, but you barely see their best players playing for them in the league.

manofgwent wrote:Let's be honest, the Heineken cup is the ultimate and the league is a distant second.

Obvs.

He means importance not just playing standards. If you look at football clubs both Europe and domestic competitions are seen as being important.

Well we aren't football thank god.

red_stag wrote:Also worth remembering England.and France are larger with more teams so losing internationals is spread across all teama. I can see the Pro 12 ending up in conferences in the long run. Local games attract highest crowds. So the Welsh play each other and then the best plays thr best Iriah, Scots.and Italian team.

Try telling that to the Tigers.




The French of course get the whole xmas period off, which they enjoy but looking at what can be done by scheduling competitive games between full strength sides in the holiday period as is the case in the Jeff it seems foolish from a financing and fan enjoyment perspective.
Yes of course squads must be managed, but it really seems daft of the Irish to screw their own Provinces and their fans by taking away the senior squad when they did. Those should have been premium fixtures. Given the Robocop is a smaller league than the T14 and the Irish dont have the EDF cup fixtures it seems odd they couldnt find a different spot in the schedule for the cap which would have been less disruptive.
The Robocop is clearly treated as subserviant to the national game and HC by the Unions, that only further undermines its credibility. Its going to be the case for any league, but is much less so in France and England where the balance is more sensible.

Some things have been fixed )adding the playoffs) but theres still work to be done to make the Rabo really matter and feel like its fiercely contested

Im not saying we should be like football but it should be a target for rabo clubs in particular to respect the domestic competition as much as the Euro cup.

Otherwise whats the point of it, it just becomes a development tool.

When I go and watch rugby it does not bother me if the seasoned internationals are playing or not.
The fringe players have a lot to prove and more often than not they are far more competitive that the established players.

Exactly. The league should be your bread and butter. The Rabies will only get interesting when the 6 nations is over you won't attract crowds when teams are quite often weakened and the scheduling and kick off times are all over the place. I'm a season ticket holder at the Dragons, but I just couldn't be bothered to watch our home games versus Glasgow. It was played at 5pm on a sunday. It's hard to get excited about. I do miss top tier rugby in Wales being played on a Saturday afternoon. I don't remember the last league game the Dragons played on a Saturday afternoon.
Just take a look at how many Rabies games the likes of Lydiate, Priestland, o gara, o Connell have played by the end of the season. 1/3 of them?
Thank god we aren't like football, the Eabies is more like the cricket county championship, only with even less crowds(joke).

Cymroglian.
It doesn't bother me either. It's always good to see the next generation get a chance, but not everyone is the same. Your casual fan wants to see the cream of welsh rugby, otherwise they'll spend their £20 somewhere else.

manofgwent wrote:Cymroglian.
It doesn't bother me either. It's always good to see the next generation get a chance, but not everyone is the same. Your casual fan wants to see the cream of welsh rugby, otherwise they'll spend their £20 somewhere else.

Exactly

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
The French of course get the whole xmas period off, which they enjoy

Don't think they have much time off ?? They played on 23/12 and are playing today TOP 14 but I guess that's still a week in the turn around

gowales wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Cymroglian.
It doesn't bother me either. It's always good to see the next generation get a chance, but not everyone is the same. Your casual fan wants to see the cream of welsh rugby, otherwise they'll spend their £20 somewhere else.

Exactly

Agree

doctor_grey wrote:Disagree. There is no dough wthout us. All the funding comes from money we pay either directly or indirectly. Through ticket-paying customers, buying team gear, networks paying based upon tv ratings (the number of us watching), corporate sponsors (paying to advertise to us), and so on. It may be channeled through clubs, national unions, or other channels, but in the end, it comes from us.

Yes, but the fans money comes mainly through the Heineken Cup and National side in the case of Ireland. As in buying merchandise relating to the national side, buying tickets for the test matches and Heineken Cup games and the much larger TV deals with the Heineken Cup, Six Nations, World Cup etc. The TV deals for the Pro 12 aren't that big and neither are attendances. This is another big difference; the competition isn't the cash cow the English and French leagues but the provinces get a slice of the pie when it comes to events like the World Cup, Six Nations etc.

The structure is different elsewhere but thats how it is in Ireland. The clubs and the national team aren't separate in terms of income and expenditure. It's all just one big honey pot.

I understand people's point about wanting to see the best Wales/Ireland/Scotland have to offer but if people don't want players rested during the Pro12 then when should they be rested?
I reckon more people will moan if the top players are rested during the HEC and Welsh/Scottish teams (Ireland has 20 or so players on central contracts so have to rest in the Pro12) get smashed left right and centre by the French, English and Irish teams. Or they could go down the football route with clubs/regions/provinces making players unavailable for internationals - not something I'd want, and I imagine that would turn away the fair weather fans in droves - also as the unions have a huge influence in celtic leagues/clubs and so that's a non-starter.

Interestingly all big football clubs as well as the English and French rugby clubs all rotate their players during league matches in order to keep them fresh for the big European matches - something the celtic teams seemed to be doing now...

If you see what Bradley is done for the Edinburgh team to meet Glasgow tomorrow it makes Cardiff Dave's point perfectly. Total contempt for both sets of fans

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Of course not - but Rabobank were somehow persuaded to sign on the dotted for a 4-year term, so it doesn't matter.

It's all about the HC.

I don't know lads. We love watching test matches. When you see we've just agreed a three-match test tour to end every season and now four matches has become the norm instead of three in the Autumn... and we've just added 2 new teams to the Pro 12. The NH season is swelling out of control and thats going to have effects unfortunately.

I don't know why people complain. It's our equivalent of the Currie Cup or the ITM Cup. It's where stars are born and where it all starts for the young guys. I like that.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:If you see what Bradley is done for the Edinburgh team to meet Glasgow tomorrow it makes Cardiff Dave's point perfectly. Total contempt for both sets of fans

I concur.
13 changes to the Edinburgh side I see. Marvelous.

Casartelli wrote:Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Of course not - but Rabobank were somehow persuaded to sign on the dotted for a 4-year term, so it doesn't matter.

It's all about the HC.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:If you see what Bradley is done for the Edinburgh team to meet Glasgow tomorrow it makes Cardiff Dave's point perfectly. Total contempt for both sets of fans

I concur.
13 changes to the Edinburgh side I see. Marvelous.

Embra have a decent chance of their 2nd HC QF in 15 attempts.

You can make comparisons with the Pro 12 to competitions such as the currie cup, but when you think that people compare the HC to the super 15, its difficult to compare. They are the elite club competitions in their respective hemispheres, however, all teams play 14 games in the super 15, whereas all tram play just 6 games in the Heineken. Personally I'd love to see a European league or 3 European league, with promotion and relegation. Just imagine a European league featuring, Leicester, Toulouse, Saracens, clermont, munster, Leinster, Ospreys etc. Ok, my dragons would be in league 3, but it would be so competitive and just imagine some of the attendances. Still it'll never happen. Just dreaming.

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Yes of course it is, teams can't get relegated and you do have to rest players. Developing players is very important also.
Teams don't get relegated in the Super 15 either yet no ones questions when those teams make a few changes and try to bring young players on.

manofgwent wrote:You can make comparisons with the Pro 12 to competitions such as the currie cup, but when you think that people compare the HC to the super 15, its difficult to compare. They are the elite club competitions in their respective hemispheres, however, all teams play 14 games in the super 15, whereas all tram play just 6 games in the Heineken. Personally I'd love to see a European league or 3 European league, with promotion and relegation. Just imagine a European league featuring, Leicester, Toulouse, Saracens, clermont, munster, Leinster, Ospreys etc. Ok, my dragons would be in league 3, but it would be so competitive and just imagine some of the attendances. Still it'll never happen. Just dreaming.

Think of the Away trips....

The biggest difference between the Currie Cup, NPC, Premiership, Top 14, and the Rabo is.......

No not that the rest are all national leagues, that's the 2nd biggest......

No not Relegation....... 3rd biggest.....

Tradition!

Currie Cup and Top 14 are both over 100 years old. The NPC 35. Even the Premiership is based on something that dates back 25 years.

The Celtic League is only in it's 11th season, well 9th really, as the pre Welsh regional setup was like a different comp.

Hard to compare it with a contest that players great grandads may have played in.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Embra have a decent chance of their 2nd HC QF in 15 attempts.

Many teams will still be hoping for a HEC QF. Cardiff for one.

It is a serious competition of course. But it's doesn't have as much intensity as the Premiership or Top 14 overall. Although sometimes it can. Leinster v Munster in front of 50k fans can be bone crunching affairs. The style of rugby on display is more attractive than the other two. People say the Premiership is full of boring rugby. But apart from Toulouse/Clermont, the Top 14 is even worse!

The most legitimate point raised here though is the pulling of players from the Christmas derbies. Which is disrespectful to the fans and will damage the league in the long run. Maybe the schedule has to be jiggled around a bit to make it easier to achieve, but the 4 unions should agree that the Christmas derbies have to be the big events of the league calender (behind the playoffs), and all the international stars should be made available. It will only increase support and show some bleedin gratitude to the fans.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Embra have a decent chance of their 2nd HC QF in 15 attempts.

Many teams will still be hoping for a HEC QF. Cardiff for one.

There is even a chance that both may qualify. That group is the weakest in the comp. (Followed by Leinster's group) The last two rounds in that group are a bit of a lottery.

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

I hear Disney might sponsor it in the future as it couldn't be anymore Mickey Mouse.

So my answer to the question is NO!

HERSH

As an ex professional rugby player, who played in both Wales and England I guess you have the most experience of the difference.

Maybe you would like to enlighten us with the differences you noticed during your career.

Are you still playing professionally?

Any competition that produces sides like Leinster and Munster and can 'loan' players to International sides like Wales, that showed such scintillating form during the WC, and Ireland that can often brush aside strong English teams like flies brushed off a horse's back - yep, that competition is a serious enough competition.

Indeed, maybe it is simply that the Pro 12 is such a serious competition that it can afford to have a few days off here and there to let the waterboys have a game. Waterboy rugby is great for team morale

The Rabo is a serious competition. People keep harping on that teams don't take it seriously but the reality is that more often that not the strongest teams are at the top of the table and the weakest at the bottom. The league is a good reflection of the relative strength of the sides involved and there is huge competition to secure a top 4 play off.

Like any league the teams juggle their resources accordingly, especially to be able to compete in the HEC, which is obviously prioritised above the league. Do Man utd prioritise the League or Europe?

The Irish teams are obviously restricted with the player welfare programme but even with this Munster and Leinster still dominate the league.

Munster did not field their 3rd XV against Ulster as has been suggested, they fielded the strongest team they had available due to injuries and the Irish training camp...a team containing Irish international and Lions like Leamy, Horan, O'Leary, O'Driscoll and 1st team regulars like Murphy, Mafi and Varley.

Ulster had a team containing 3 springbok internationals and a new zealand RWC winner as well as several Irish and Irish 'A' internationals like Cave, Henry and Tuohy.

Anyone who actually watched the game would not suggest that the RABO is anything but a serious competition.

Of course the league is taken as a serious competition. Take Leinster and Munster out of the league and you have 10 teams who take it pretty serious. As an Ulster fan, and with the exception of the Leinster game, we always put out a side that can win. All teams rotate players, like the All Blacks, but the league is very much the bread and butter for a lot of teams. Teams like Ulster, Dragons and Glasgow all take the league serious, and would love to win the title. Last years final is a good example of how big it can be.

Saying all this there is a few things that really undermine the league. Such as the IRFU decision to rest internationals during the derbies. Real shame. There's a few things, but I think the one thing I would focus on, and I don't want to open an old can of worms, but the prestige of the league. I'm not talking about history but that the league hasn't got enough to play for. The AP and T14 are great because every game does matter.

They shouldn't revamp the league but perhaps have better European qualification. Not sure how, but maybe more people would show up if more games had a meaning. Perhaps expand the play-offs to be like the T14 and have a 6 team play-offs.

Firstly a league title won't be decided on who has the best 15. Its a squad game. Infact the most dominate sides in leagues general tend to be the sides with the best backup 15. No Team (including French and English sides) will field their best 15 all of the time in their respective leagues. Most of the French big boys already have whats know as home and away 15's.

If the purpose of this thread is to establish if the Rabbo is stronger than the French league then I would say no as generally looking at French sides as a whole they have more experienced squads.

I certanly however dont think the quality on show is bad though and its a better league than the Aviva as for starters there are more current internationals playing in it. Granted some won't be seen half the year but its not like the English Superstars play all the time either.

What I would say is the attendances in England are better which creates for a better atmosphere. But I dont think that really plays any difference in terms of quality on show. Infact I think in a lot of ways the English League is not as good. Thats partly because only about 4 or 5 sides (I'm being generous here) try to play any rugby. The rest will grind it out for results which teaches those players how to deal with cup rugby. What it does not teach them however is to play heads up rugby and attacking space.

You only have to look at the Rugby the Ospreys played in the opening rounds (without their stars) to understand that they have quality throughout so whoever plays for them is going to be fairly good.

As for Leinster and Munster not taking it seriously, can someone explain to me why they always push the top 4 every season? Its tosh to suggest these teams dont take the league seriously.

I can understand why attendances in Wales are low given the working climate and unemployment figures. I guess people wont give the Rabbo credit though until they are all playing in front of 20,000 each wee

Personally I love the culture differences in the league and even the Italians are adding to it now. The way I look at it come the 6 Nations no other league in Europe will provide more Internationals.

At the end of the day it can't really be measured because when a Rabbo side beats a Aviva side in Europe its because they have been rested and playing at less intensity in previous weeks. When an Aviva side wins its because they are the better side. It's a no win situation for Rabbo teams really.

JayMaster3000 wrote:The AP and T14 are great because every game does matter.

It's a myth continuously perpetuated. Every-Game-Matters.

The truth is that in Pro 12, the same is true... every-game-matters. But there is also another truth; and that is that in the AP and T14, just like in Pro 12, NOT every game matters EQUALLY. In short, in the AP, in the T14, and in the Pro 12, every game matters but some matter more than others. This law applies to all manner of sporting competition.

But still the myth is perpetuated that someohow the old relegation league is more 'competitive' because if you're not fighting to stay at the top, you're fighting to keep from the bottom. Hmmm, is not fighting to get to the top motivation enough? It should be. Nobody wants a wooden spoon.

Oh but when you're halfway through a season and you don't have a hope in hell of getting to the play-offs, where's your motivation then? If you're not part of a relegation league, you don't have any - or so the story goes.

And yet - and yet, it's never those guys at the bottom who are criticised for not sending out their best players. It's the teams at the top who get lambasted for the lack of intensity up there on the top rungs of the Pro 12. The accusation is almost that the top sides don't take being top seriously enough. How serious does the top get? Being there is ambition enough and staying there is perfect tactics.

Munster make a mockery of the competition by churning out a '3rd string' side against Ulster. The imputation is that had the Pro12 been a relegation league, Munster couldn't afford to take the 'risk'. Both sides would have had to put out their best sides and play their best rugby.

Rubbish. Munster had their strategists look at the fixtures and tables (ie any player with a brain cell) and they just did the homework on risk and came up with the maths to prove they didn't really need the game as much as Ulster did. Did they want to lose the game? No. But did they need to win the game given their position in the league relative to Ulster's? No again. Strategy is not a sin. Playing your best side week in/week out and playing them as hard as you can week in/week out is a naive strategy - and that IS a sin....if it ever happened. The truth is it never does happen; not in Pro12, not in T14 and not in the AP. But long live the myth anyway...it gives us a ready made topic whenever topics are short on the ground.

Well said as always secretfly....one minor point though, Munster sent out the strongest side they had available. Circumstances meant that Ulster were able to field a closer to full strength side but I have no doubt that both sides were looking to win that one. Some of the hits were ferocious and the difference was Ulsters superior cutting edge out wide and scrum...if BJ, Jones and Howlett had of been fit it would have been much closer imo.

Couldn't have put it better Secret Fly - Roddersm, I'd say the Scarlets did the same (ie send out their strongest side) even though they made 14 changes, most of the players who played 4 days earlier wouldn't have been able to get up to the required standard to play better than the players that replaced them. Plus we had many injuries as well (as do most teams)

I get your point rodders ...and whilst I didn't get to see the game, I have no doubt that Munster didn't go up there to take a loss. I did put '3rd string' into quotation marks as I meant that to be the general taunt coming from those questioning how serious the league is. Yes, Munster will have fought for it but in the knowledge that their chances were less real with the team they put out.

You say they put out the strongest side they had available to them and I'd agree there too. But the reason they didn't have a stronger side is to do with the obvious Ireland callups/committments added to having certain players ready for bigger games. And that is not in any way disparaging Ulster. Ulster themselves are plotting out their season and placing resources accordingly. Munster, Ulster and every side in the league organises players according to their own requirements, taking note of each other's respective positions in the league as well as games to come. Plus, a big chunk of thought and strategising also goes into Heineken preparations.

But yes, Munster still trying with less of a familiar team than they might have wanted in an ideal world is just further proof that top sides in the league DO take the competition seriously. But it is a military campaign, you do need to strategise throughout the year, just as Ulster did on their trip to Leinster. You need to pick and choose your time to play your best hands. Plus, game time for less familiar names will never be a wasted opportunity anyway. Those decisions come back to pay their dividends in future seasons.

Thats it secretfly, Ulsters target over the xmas period was 5 points and we got that. I didn't agree totally with our decision to send such an understrength side down to Leinster but it was vindicated with the win on Friday, and ultimately that shows that we do take the League seriously rather than we don't.

All the sides want to be involved in the play offs so its nonsence for anyone to suggest that it's not a serious competition and its worth the dour games and squad rotation you sometimes get throughout the season to see the end of season run in.

The HEC is the pinnacle of club rugby and the priority but I think fans of most of the Rabo sides would be bitterly disappointed not to make the top 4.

sorry wrong thread...

SecretFly wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:The AP and T14 are great because every game does matter.

It's a myth continuously perpetuated. Every-Game-Matters.

The truth is that in Pro 12, the same is true... every-game-matters. But there is also another truth; and that is that in the AP and T14, just like in Pro 12, NOT every game matters EQUALLY. In short, in the AP, in the T14, and in the Pro 12, every game matters but some matter more than others. This law applies to all manner of sporting competition.

But still the myth is perpetuated that someohow the old relegation league is more 'competitive' because if you're not fighting to stay at the top, you're fighting to keep from the bottom. Hmmm, is not fighting to get to the top motivation enough? It should be. Nobody wants a wooden spoon.

Oh but when you're halfway through a season and you don't have a hope in hell of getting to the play-offs, where's your motivation then? If you're not part of a relegation league, you don't have any - or so the story goes.

And yet - and yet, it's never those guys at the bottom who are criticised for not sending out their best players. It's the teams at the top who get lambasted for the lack of intensity up there on the top rungs of the Pro 12. The accusation is almost that the top sides don't take being top seriously enough. How serious does the top get? Being there is ambition enough and staying there is perfect tactics.

Munster make a mockery of the competition by churning out a '3rd string' side against Ulster. The imputation is that had the Pro12 been a relegation league, Munster couldn't afford to take the 'risk'. Both sides would have had to put out their best sides and play their best rugby.

Rubbish. Munster had their strategists look at the fixtures and tables (ie any player with a brain cell) and they just did the homework on risk and came up with the maths to prove they didn't really need the game as much as Ulster did. Did they want to lose the game? No. But did they need to win the game given their position in the league relative to Ulster's? No again. Strategy is not a sin. Playing your best side week in/week out and playing them as hard as you can week in/week out is a naive strategy - and that IS a sin....if it ever happened. The truth is it never does happen; not in Pro12, not in T14 and not in the AP. But long live the myth anyway...it gives us a ready made topic whenever topics are short on the ground.

I wasn't really talking about relegation. I was more implying a change to the play-off system or European qualification so that more games have a little more impact. Perhaps pull in more fans. The AP and T14 get about six-seven teams get H-Cup while the ML get 10-11 teams in the H-Cup. Maybe a little more competition would up the it a little more.

I think it's a good standard, already mentioned, and that most teams do it take it serious, as already mentioned. But teams having less to play for in the ML I think that gives people ammo and perhaps keeps other sponsors away. Perhaps expand the play-offs or reform European qualification, but I don't think any of this is possible.

Why would a union (say the Italians) look to throw their membership of the Heineken Cup, into a league that could, potentially, leave them with no team in the HC? Its complete apples and chalk.

The Rabo gives 4 small markets the ability to create and sustain self-sufficient professional teams at a decent enough level of quality to allow the national sides of each market to assemble competitive teams. In a rare bout of possitivity, Italy are getting better (slowly but surely), Scotland have paid for Murrayfield finally so can now focus on developing their structures, Wales and Ireland are competitive in most Tests.

And does the Rabo really have to listen to Top14 supporters talk about not rotating players/fielding weakened sides for away fixtures (or just giving up on away games)? And the Jeff is so competitive that no side has ever rested a player. Only difference is Irish provinces resting players ties into central contracts so it is loud and clear when it happens. It's not as if a players body can take a fully competitive rugby match every week!

I think for a league that is still very young, the Rabo is coming along nicely.

With respect to Ulster the issue was the fixture list - we only had a 4 day turn around. If the Leinster game had been on a Saturday we would have put our our strongest side.

Instead, and because we take the Pro12 seriously, we put out sides we believed would maximize our points return from playing two games in four days against the strongest two sides in the competion.

Our return of 5 points achieved that.

As an aside some young kids got greaty experience which will do them a world of good

I watched 4 cracking Rabo games over the xmas period: Leinster v Ulster, Ulster v Munster, Connacht v Leinster, Ospreys v Blues.

Yes there were players missing, particularly in the Irish derbies but even with this there were numerous world class players on show: Pieenar, Muller, Afoa, Nacewa, Bowe, Williams, Henson, Terblanche to name a few plus many potential stars of the future.

Generally speaking there was an excellent standard of rugby and no quarter was given in any game that I watched.

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

How can it be when some teams don't play there 1st choice teams for large parts of the season, the fans know this hence why games have poor attendances.

Geoff I think the problem is the ludicrous amount of changes. 15 changes is bordering on the silly. It shows how seriously Ulster take the competition.

Playing a 2nd/3rd strength team in a league game shows the sheer lack of interest. You play to win if the game matters.

Some clubs in the AP do rotate. My team Sarries changed 6 for the Gloucester game which is still plenty. Quins and Exeter both had a 4 day turn around but did they rotate that much? A bit of course but not too much.

Doctor Grey Saracens did lose a lot of starters. The likes of Stevens,Burger,Wyles,Wigglesworth and Brown could well easily start. It's just we have better strength in depth than most sides in the AP. We lost 8 players. Please stop spouting the ridiculous myth. The real beneficiaries of the RWC were Quins with 3 players missing.

HERSH wrote:Is the Rabo a serious competition?

How can it be when some teams don't play there 1st choice teams for large parts of the season, the fans know this hence why games have poor attendances.

Well in terms of attendances its hard to compete with a League were people will pay to watch Worcester beat Wasps 6-0 and Bath beat LI 30 -3.

With scorelines like that I'd be wondering how serious a competition the AP is.

Some people using Ulster’s two games as an example of how poor the league is.

What would an AP team have done? send out their first XV against Leinster, lose with no BP, garner no experience for talented youth like Birch (looked very good), then put the same tired XV out against Munster at home, possibly still won, but not got the BP? That would have been a tactical failure which would have resulted in 1 league point lost and a lot of young players not getting game time. it was a gamble, it paid off, fair play to them.