Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

Can't see anything wrong with oil companies. Like every other business they are out to make money, but somehow it is frowned upon to make more than anyone else.
It is not the fault of the oil companies if there is future harm to the environment, as if there wasn't a demand or the product they wouldn't be continuing to invest in finding it. (if there even is an issue with the environment)
Oil companies probably put more money into alternatives than anyone else. Statoil in particular.

As for climate change, there is no doubt it is occurring, however considering the age of the earth is measured in billions of years and we are only able to go back as far as the last ice age (10-15000 years) to measure climate trends. I'm yet to be convinced of man's actual contribution. The number one greenhouse gas is not C02, CH4 or any other by product of our use, but infact naturally occuring water vapour, which our burning of fossil fuels barely make a dent in. Of course it's all about tolerances and thresholds, but with the likes of India, China and America being the worlds biggest polluters, I'm not going to feel guilty about European energy consumption. It seems very convenient that as people are reliant on fossil fuel then it is easy to tax it by both increasing it's price and the guilt associated with using it.

Anyway, all these lentil knitters who go on about the "evil" of oil have never ever given a viable alternative.
Personally I think Nuclear power is the way forward, but the uneducated hippies will never allow it.

[navyblueshorts]

Diane Abbott, you just couldn't make her up:

"White people love playing divide and rule We should not play their game".

What a well judged comment from the 'Legend'....I don't think.

[super_realist]

Diane Abbott, you just couldn't make her up:

"White people love playing divide and rule We should not play their game".

What a well judged comment from the 'Legend'....I don't think.

Mac's a communist Navy, I wouldn't expect anything less to see his poster girl described as a legend. He's like a teacher who feels it is his duty to be left of centre, but like many teachers, doesn't know why.

[McLaren]

Navy

Who can argue with that comment navy, given what we have done throughout history and are current attitudes it seems fair. If you actually believe the white upper middle classes who wield the power in the UK care a damn about struggling ethnic communities I would be surprised at your naivety.

The Suarez situation highlights the fact most people don’t get racism; Liverpool should be absolutely condemned for their defence of his actions. They are not however and some people even suggest an 8 game ban is way over the top. Personally I don’t see how he didn’t suffer an instant dismissal as that is what I would hope to see happen to any colleague making such remarks. I will even add the Stevie Williams incident to the evidence, a clearly racist and unacceptable comment defended on here and by others as nothing more than banter. Banter should be humorous, and I don’t see how something making light of 500 years of oppression is funny.

So yes, Dian Abbot is a legend and I wish more politicians were like her. And no I don’t care if she fiddled expenses, in fact I couldn’t care less about the expenses “scandal”. So what they took some extra mulla, imagine how much extra the average white van driver would have skimmed had they not been too stupid and ignorant to get in such a position?

[super_realist]

Mac, you're like a sixth form socialist. Embarassing.

Please explain why Abbot is a legend. Her job is to represent her constituents, nothing more.
She's a hypocrit and a cheat, hardly what you could call a legend.

[McLaren]

Super, even some quite conservative minded folk would agree that whatever policy is put in place it is applied evenly and fairly with regards to race or ethnicity? Not sure how that counts as socialism, so maybe you are confusing your political ideologies.

[super_realist]

Mac, sounds like you studied politics at First Year Uni level and now think you are better versed than anyone else, bit like your reading of Doak on course design.

I agree about fair application in regards to race and ethnicity policies, what I do not agree with is Abbot's blatantly provocative comments.
They are not helpful at all, outdated and are wide of the mark in any event.

[Diggers]

I think she has achieved much in her life. From a poor background she went to Cambridge and has gone on to have a high profile political career.
I dont think that makes her a legend, I also think its completely wrong to call her an idiot. Id be very impressed if most idiots could make as much of their life as she has.
She does like to stir up a debate and people love to batter her about sending her son to Westminster. I can see why but she had a tough decision to make, maybe she took the wrong one but if thats the case a single mum wanting to protect her son is hardly the biggest crime on earth. She is more principled than an awful lot of politicians but she does get targeted, yes because she is outspoken but also I have no doubt because she is black, female and maybe even because she is overweight.
By all accounts she is an excellent constituency MP, so to the people she tries to help out there perhaps she is a legend ?

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

Who can argue with that comment navy, given what we have done throughout history and are current attitudes it seems fair. If you actually believe the white upper middle classes who wield the power in the UK care a damn about struggling ethnic communities I would be surprised at your naivety.

Laughable. What you don't seem to understand is that what she has said is racist. Funny that you, with your knee-jerk responses to such issues, don't see this.

The Suarez situation highlights the fact most people don’t get racism; Liverpool should be absolutely condemned for their defence of his actions. They are not however and some people even suggest an 8 game ban is way over the top. Personally I don’t see how he didn’t suffer an instant dismissal as that is what I would hope to see happen to any colleague making such remarks. I will even add the Stevie Williams incident to the evidence, a clearly racist and unacceptable comment defended on here and by others as nothing more than banter. Banter should be humorous, and I don’t see how something making light of 500 years of oppression is funny.

I suggest Suarez has been given an exemplary sentence on the basis of no evidence other than his own admission. As far as I'm aware, no-one has corroborated Evra. The fact that Suarez admitted what he said surely suggests he was unaware of the impending furore? Not that this excuses the comments entirely but I would have thought the sentence he received would have taken this in to account. Contrast this with John Terry who knows exactly what the consequences of admission are and, if he really insulted Anton Ferdinand, knows no-one else can corroborate it.

TBH (and I'm not actually saying this is what happened), I could believe Evra made it up given the way professional footballers cheat their way through every game and try to get opposing players booked/sent off. In fact, given what a lot of players are like, I would hope the authorities are on the watch for any unfounded accusations in future as a way of deliberately getting opposition players in trouble. The accusation of being racist is easy to make and, even if unfounded, hard to shake off.

I also wouldn't expect you to be objective here being an avowed Man U fan.

So yes, Dian Abbot is a legend and I wish more politicians were like her. And no I don’t care if she fiddled expenses, in fact I couldn’t care less about the expenses “scandal”. So what they took some extra mulla, imagine how much extra the average white van driver would have skimmed had they not been too stupid and ignorant to get in such a position?

Your response on this last paragraph is so absurd as to be worthy of ridicule. She's made a racist remark. You can't have it both ways. Re. your position on the expenses issue, that's your thoughts on the matter? That you don't care that our politicians are, arguably, corrupt? No, I suppose you don't given that Abbott is, apparently, one of your darling Lefties.

[navyblueshorts]

...Who can argue with that comment navy, given what we have done throughout history and are current attitudes it seems fair. If you actually believe the white upper middle classes who wield the power in the UK care a damn about struggling ethnic communities I would be surprised at your naivety...

One other thing Mac. I doubt the white, upper, middle class etc (as you describe them) give a poopie about anyone who's struggling. They probably look out for themselves....surprise, surprise. There are plenty of white, working class/lower class/whatever-derogatory-term-you-want people out there but you conveniently ignore them don't you? Your assumption it's all down to race is ridiculous and poorly thought through.

[super_realist]

Mac seems to assume that if you are white and middle class that automatically makes you a bad, wicked right wing person.
It apparently means you don't care for other people and are obviously racist, but that if you are working class and left wing then you are altruistic, , wholesome, generous, embrace all ethnicities and share all your cash about and don't have any negative character traits at all.


I'm sure he's anti capitalist, anti banking and anti oil companies too. Probably camping out in some tent in Edinburgh.

[navyblueshorts]

It gets better. Now she's saying the comment was "taken out of context". Isn't that one of the most pathetic excuses ever? No Diane, your tweet was in the present tense. As written, it did not refer to 19th Century Colonial rule. Worried it's uncovered some of your real thoughts on race relations? Oh dear.

Mac. Your darling Ms. Abbott doesn't appear to 'get racism' does she?

[McLaren]

I was thinking and even if you do consider Diane’s comments to be inaapropriate should we really blame someone whose race has been persecuted for so long for having a slight outburst of frustration. Especially given that despite hundreds of years of cruelty and acceptable behaviour towards black people we have not managed to fully correct the issues in 2012!!

Is it any surprise some black people are frustrated and why must we adopt such a patronising tone when a black person merely points out the idiocy of our behaviour over the years?

[super_realist]

Mac, what exactly does she have to be fed up with in 2012? She wasn't alive 500 years ago, and people like the Irish were persecuted too over time, but you don't hear them crying foul all that often (ok, they can't take potato jokes)

I really can't see why Abbot even bothered to bring the issue up. It doesn't help, is provocative, and I'm not even convinced there is even an issue to be raised.
Why bring it up now? She's just sabre rattling.
If I was her I would consider her appalling weight problem to be an issue more pressing.

[MustPuttBetter]

Mac, you are funny. You went off your trolley at the Steve Williams 'racist' comment, and now Diane Abbott makes as much if not more of a derogatory comment - ''White people love playing 'divide & rule' We should not play their game'' - and she's apparently a legend.

I doubt you know whether it's day or night most of the time!

[McLaren]

Surely the fact you do not understand my point in my previous posts on this not only shows your ignorance of the subject but also proves Abbots point?

[super_realist]

Mac, please explain why you believe the following statement (attributed to Fat Abbot) has any basis to it.

"White people love playing divide and rule We should not play their game".

You are just a Bolinger Bolshevist who doesn't really understand the world he lives in but who feels he needs to support the "oppressed" because of some Utopian ideal.

[navyblueshorts]

I was thinking and even if you do consider Diane’s comments to be inaapropriate should we really blame someone whose race has been persecuted for so long for having a slight outburst of frustration. Especially given that despite hundreds of years of cruelty and acceptable behaviour towards black people we have not managed to fully correct the issues in 2012!!

Is it any surprise some black people are frustrated and why must we adopt such a patronising tone when a black person merely points out the idiocy of our behaviour over the years?

Fair point...in a way. You're right that some people are frustrated with such aspects of history. Fair enough, I don't disagree. However, one doesn't campaign for years and years about racist preconceptions and then make remarks that could be construed as harbouring similar prejudices. If someone makes such remarks in such a context, then they should expect to be mocked. Non-discrimination based on race etc cuts both ways. Abbott's comment illustrates that nicely.

Ironically, I don't think she's likely to be really racist and she made comment to the fact she wished people wouldn't refer to a "the black community", a remark I take to mean she wishes people wouldn't distinguish at all and just refer to "the community". A laudable aim.

I see she's apologised now. At least it was quick so fair play to her for that.

[MustPuttBetter]

Surely the fact you do not understand my point in my previous posts on this not only shows your ignorance of the subject but also proves Abbots point?

I think the fickle, illogical ramblings you come out with might prove her point but i'm not sure that applies to the rest of us whites..........

I assume the point that Tiger does in fact have a black ars*hole proves his point, or is that different?

[Diggers]

Two sides to this. Yes sometimes the race card can be played too often. The other side is that in the UK in 2012 there are still huge issues concerning race and I think that an awful lot of them get swept under the carpet because they are too difficult/impossible? to deal with.
As an example I look after two media companies in the west end, probably employ about 250 people between them. You can count the number of asian or black employees pretty much on one hand. Mind you equally the vast majority of them are well spoken, middle class kids with financial support from their families.
Society is not fair in many ways, but some sections of society are certainly treated more "fairly" than others. I think you'd have to be completely blinkered not to be able to see that.

[super_realist]

MIght well be true Diggers, but I don't think that means that "whites like to divide and rule" does it?

[Diggers]

Its a strange comment SR, but I dont know the full context in which she said it.
Let's face it she has worked for many years now with the upper levels of the civil service, in the Commons and will have been on numerous committees working with members of the Lords as well. She is very well versed in how things are done.
I think having an off the record conversation with her about the workings of govt at the top level would be very interesting indeed.

[McLaren]

Here is a question, sort of related to the fact I get called socialist, communist etc on this site.

I was born with a gut reaction to hate the Torries, so the question is, why are some of you not born with this clearly evolutionary necessity?

[super_realist]

Exactly the reason you don't understand it.

You don't even know why you hate the Tories, but you do.
What makes you think that being so blindly blinkered means you have an evolutionary advantage? It certainly hasn't helped your chronic spelling.

I can see that both parties from left and right of centre bring certain useful policies to the table, not all, but some, but you just see anything remotely right as instantly bad, or that being priveleged, wealthy or are even prepared to work hard is an afront to your red flag, Tommy Sheridan agenda.

[Diggers]

Here is a question, sort of related to the fact I get called socialist, communist etc on this site.

I was born with a gut reaction to hate the Torries, so the question is, why are some of you not born with this clearly evolutionary necessity?

Mac, you do realise you are asking that question on a golf forum dont you.

[dynamark]

Hey ho boys and girls!
Did anyone else think over the years this unfortunate young man was refered to in the media as'the black teenager'and recently referred to as 'the teenager'.
Society is not fair in all manner of ways but there has always been the opportunity for people to make progress.

[navyblueshorts]

Here is a question, sort of related to the fact I get called socialist, communist etc on this site.

I was born with a gut reaction to hate the Torries, so the question is, why are some of you not born with this clearly evolutionary necessity?

I'm a gut Socialist basically although my Dad was essentially a mild Tory and my Mum a mild(ish) Socialist. I was born in '66 and was therefore in my teens/early 20s through Thatcher. I seriously disliked (hated even) a lot of what was done under her stewardship at the time.
That said, much of what was done then was ultimately needed I think. They weren't all bad. Then again, the Left is not all good. I'm with S_R here, both sides of the political spectrum have decent ideas from time-to-time but they also talk absolute testicles as well.
I'm going off politicians anyway as I get older. Period. They generally all seem to be career politicos now who're only concerned about the short game (i.e. being re-elected) and not making difficult decisions and seeing them through.
I find I'm getting more right wing as I age (Dad said this would happen ) but I'd never say I was becoming someone who'd happily join the Tory party. Guess I'm a floating voter.

I assume your so-say gut reaction hatred of everything Tory may derive from your parents feelings on Thatcher's Scottish policies esp. the Poll Tax?

FWIW Mac, beating you constantly with the 'Commie stick' is a bit of cheap shot IMO. OK some of the time for a laugh () but it gets a bit dull if over-used.

[dynamark]

Missed the world cup win then!

[Diggers]

Im probably not a million miles away from Navy. I was born in 67 and also grew up in the Thatcher years. I was in the north east and my family have a mining background so I have to say it was hard not to take personally a lot of what went on back then. That said there were then and will always be a lot of working class Tory voters.
But although I have also become more small c conservative with age, I will never vote Tory. I have seen nothing to make me believe that the far right of the party will always hold far too much power and influence for someone like me to ever feel I could trust them. Despite the fact that our Old Etonian PM is just a normal middle class bloke..........

[super_realist]

As opposed to the poor downtrodden peasant upbringing of Tony Blair......

[Diggers]

Super, I suggest you take a look at the respective family trees of Cameron and Blair. They dont have a lot in common.
Cameron comes from a bloodline of privelege. Which is fine, well its not really but thats life, but dont tell me you are just a normal middle class bloke because you really arent Dave.

[super_realist]

What is wrong with coming from a priveleged background? Does someone have to have worked as a Hackney cab driver to know how to run the country?

No one is saying Cameron is middle class, man of the people, but Blair wasn't either.

Blair had a pretty priveleged upbringing too, Fettes College in Edinburgh and The Chorister, Durham.

Cameron is no less suitable to run the country than anyone else simply because of his background.

[navyblueshorts]

...Cameron is no less suitable to run the country than anyone else simply because of his background.

True, but we're definitely not "all in this together".

[Diggers]

What is wrong with coming from a priveleged background? Does someone have to have worked as a Hackney cab driver to know how to run the country?

No one is saying Cameron is middle class, man of the people, but Blair wasn't either.

Blair had a pretty priveleged upbringing too, Fettes College in Edinburgh and The Chorister, Durham.

Cameron is no less suitable to run the country than anyone else simply because of his background.

Camerons background will have massively helped him get to where he is in the Tory Party. Other potentially more able candidates without the same connections and history wont have found the rise to the top quite as straightforward as Cameron.
Maybe his huge charisma, amazing oratory skills and massive intellect...none off which Ive seen much sign of so far.....would have got him there anyway. Personally I very much doubt it.

[super_realist]

No we're not, because we're not communists, so it was probably a silly thing to say but there will always be people better off than others but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way of the world.

[super_realist]

Diggers, , then Blairs priveleged background should have gone against the principles of the Labour party, compared to Milliband, Cameron has outstanding charisma and oratory skills. Cameron has Milliband in his back pocket at PMQ's

Milliband is doing the longevity of the coalition a great deal of good.

[Diggers]

Blairs background is that of a family working hard to give their family a start in life. That isn't against and principles of teh Labour party. Cameron's background is one of having a silver spoon shoved right up his and his inbred, chinless wonder ancestors backsides for generations.
Cameron has been at best average in PMQ's, certainly nothing special. The fact is that Milliband is awful but he has still had plenty of good days against Cameron. Its a massive shame his brother didnt win the leadership race, Labour certainly shot themselves in the foot there.

[navyblueshorts]

The only PMQs I've heard in the recent past are all "ya-boo sucks" playground stuff. Rubbish and hardly worthy of the body supposedly running our Country.

You're right re. Red Ed and his effect on the Coalition. He's pretty poor.

[navyblueshorts]

Blairs background is that of a family working hard to give their family a start in life. That isn't against and principles of teh Labour party...

His parents' background may be that of a solid, working family but Blair himself has had a pretty sweet time of it as far as I can see.

[super_realist]

The point is Diggers, that background is irrelevant to whether you can run the country or not.
Blairs dad was a University lecturer, hardly the Coal mining heartland that people seem to expect Cameron to have been part of. And even if Cameron is from that background, it's hardly his fault, it's not like he just got handed the leadership, he has done just what every other leader has to get to head of their party.
Churchill was from a similar background, but without doubt the most influential PM of all time.

[Diggers]

Its not irrelevant to getting into a position where you are given the opportunity to run the country.
Blairs Dad was a junior tax insprector who then put himself through Uni to become a lecturer.
Churchill without doubt the most influential leader ? Really ? He was simply the best leader to help us have a chance of playing a part in winning WW2.
Id say Attlee was equally if not more influential in creating the welfare state.
Thats real politics, not wartime leadership.

[super_realist]

Blair, who went to probably the most exclusive school in Scotland? Seems that privelege is not only the preserve of the Tory party and influential in choosing who gets to climb the greasy pole.

[Diggers]

Nothing wrong with a good education....whats wrong is having everything handed to you on a plate because its your birthright.
People like Cameron see themselves as the ruling class.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=bullingdon+club+cameron&hl=en&biw=1248&bih=776&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=oHpRkBnS7r0HhM:&imgrefurl=http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/03/14/the-bullingdon-club/&docid=CC3oPG3l6k9muM&imgurl=http://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cameroneton2_468x420.jpg%253Fw%253D700&w=468&h=420&ei=idQFT62vE8f58QOcqozyBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=102&vpy=142&dur=609&hovh=213&hovw=237&tx=174&ty=129&sig=104879922746293151595&page=1&tbnh=142&tbnw=165&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

They literally make me want to puke.

[super_realist]

I agree, looks like St.Andrews students on a night out, but did you expect his dad to send him to Peckham Comprehensive?

I'm sure you could find similar pictures of Blair at Fettes.

You can't become president of the US unless you are minted either, so it's hardly the fault of the rich that they end up in positions of power.

[Diggers]

I doubt someone like Blair would have got into Camerons crew though. Blue blood only, either that or a really tight backside so the rest of the toffs could have a good jump.

[super_realist]

Agreed, pretty hateful looking bunch, but would they be any worse than a bunch of lead swinging dole scroungers?

[Diggers]

Lead swinging dole scroungers are not my favourite people, but at least they usually have a reason to be unpleasant.
And nobody is going to allow a lead swinging doleite to have a nice cosy passage to being an MP or PM.

[super_realist]

Could be worse, Mac could be in charge, makes it a commie state, closes down the banks and oil companies, dishing benefits out to whoever wanted them, making everyone swear allegiance to Doak and taking golf back to the middle ages.

[Doon the Water]

I might see the Maggie,Maggie, Maggie film tomorrow.

It may be an interesting experience in Scotland.
The cinema will either be empty or full of folk wanting to throw things at the screen.

[kwinigolfer]

I'd like to think British actresses had first dibs on playing Thatcher and all turned the "opportunity" down.

[Shotrock]

Man, that photo is right out of central casting!!

Don't know enough about the path to PM or high government office in the UK, but in the states neither Bill Clinton nor Barak Obama were to the Manor born, unlike the Bush, Kennedy or Gore clan.

In the case of Clinton (underrated Prez IMO), too many took him for a cud chewing, good ol' boy from the south, when in fact his intellect was (is) pretty enormous.

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