Pick Your Ireland Squad for the Six Nations

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Pick your squad for Ireland in the Six Nations, and you could win the chance to be in a long, boring, meaningless argument with Sin E and/or rodders. Call now!

Here's my effort;

PROPS
Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Tom Court, Tony Buckley, Paddy McAllister
HOOKERS
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Damien Varley
LOCKS
Paul O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner
BACKROW
Stephen Ferris, Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Peter O'Mahony, Chris Henry
SCRUM HALF
Eoin Reddan, Conor Murray, Isaac Boss
OUTHALF
Ronan O'Gara, Johnny Sexton
CENTRES
Gordon D'Arcy, Paddy Wallace, Fergus McFadden, Darren Cave, Keith Earls
BACK THREE
Luke Fitzgerald, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney, Gavin Duffy

Captain; Paul O'Connell
Vice-Captains; Rory Best, Ronan O'Gara, Johnny Sexton, Jamie Heaslip

Additional Players to feature for Ireland A but not the squad for the tournament proper;

Stephen Archer, Mike Sherry, Shane Jennings, Mike McCarthy, Paul Marshall, Ian Madigan, Nevin Spence, Simon Zebo, Craig Gilroy

Artful_Dodger wrote:Hugely disappointed with Kidney - people always denied he was biased - I think this is the clincher - it really is.

Kidney is being quite conservative- but he's not biased.

Biased against ulster?

He may be loyal to a fault with his group of players but i wouldn't say hes biased.

Is Marshall missing out on the subs bench for one wolfhounds game really that bad?

I would have had him and Gilroy ahead of TOL and Conway respectively but neither would be getting much game-time. Tuohy and Wallace will be in the 6n squad. Best, Trimble, and Ferris will be starting and Henry will be the next backrower in line

Try stating your opinion without getting nasty Notch - my personal opinion is that 5 Ulster players given recent results is ludicrous and two of them not even making the wolfhound just takes the biscuit.

Tomas O'Leary been playing better than Marshall has he?? Thats not a conservative choice its plain ridiculous.

Yes, exactly.

If there's one selection that is wrecking my head though, it's Denis Hurley for the Wolfhounds. What can we possibly learn from that?

He's a good club man and nothing more. Why not pick O'Hallornan or Gilroy who have the potential to be something more? It's not biased. It just doesn't make sense.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Try stating your opinion without getting nasty Notch - my personal opinion is that 5 Ulster players given recent results is ludicrous and two of them not even making the wolfhound just takes the biscuit.

Tomas O'Leary been playing better than Marshall has he?? Thats not a conservative choice its plain ridiculous.

Yes, I agree with that. But people seem to think one poster abusing another is worse than a poster abusing the coach? He's a person too. So don't call someone out for being nasty if you're going to throw slurs about the people in the Ireland set-up around or you risk being the pot calling the kettle black.

Your calling a mans personal and professional integrity into question and it's out of line. And stupid.

No, Kidney just isn't selecting on form. And it worries me.

You've just said he's not selecting on form so what the hell else would come into it other than personal bias? Perhaps your questioning his intelligence...?

I dont think suggesting the coach is bias in some capacity is the same as getting abusive by the way.

No mate, it's quite a lot worse. It's quite a lot more serious.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Hugely disappointed with Kidney - people always denied he was biased - I think this is the clincher - it really is.

Biased? In favour of what?

I'm on record as saying the more promising young players get considered the better. But I know I'm much too freeform for reality and reality strikes everytime the International season begins. Choices are made - not always necessarily the choices of us fans but we're not the ones being paid or the ones with our head on a block if results don't keep coming.

So again. Biased? In favour of what? Players from a certain Province? Criminal if true. Or is it simply biased in favour of results?

McLauglin's is disappointed. And any proud, competitive coach would be. But - how would Kidney choose to answer McLaughlin's concerns?

He might point that Leinster are top of Pro12 and already through to the HC quarters; and then he might also say Munster are 3rd in the Pro12 and the only side with 5 from 5 in HC. He might then say, so who would rightly feel shortchanged if those hard fought for results were discounted in favour of 'performance'?

I'm just saying, if one player gets picked, one misses out. The one that misses out is going to ask why? The answer better be a good one if League and Heineken Cup positions don't count.

Right so how about answering the question, if he's not selecting on form, what do you think he's selecting on?

Lads your arguing over the squad for one wolfhounds match relax.

Gilroys got plenty of time to get recogntion.

We all knew there wouldnt be much changes to the RWC squad. I know some myself included would have liked to have seen us move on from Cullen and O'Leary etc. but realistically they wont have much part to play in the 6 nations.

The problem isn't whose in the squad its whose coaching the squad. We could have Nacewa and half the aussie back line and we'd still be playing the same way. hopefully Kidney and co can get them playing but the squad (where it counts) is pretty much as expected.

No coach ever selects just on form.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Right so how about answering the question, if he's not selecting on form, what do you think he's selecting on?

I think he's decided that he wants to keep the squad from the RWC together. Simple as that. No drama. No conspiracies. No bias.

He just wants to give the same group of players a chance in the 6N.

The same squad and team that was systematically outplayed by Wales in the WC - our first opponents in the 6N?

Interesting plan by Kidney.....

We get it. You disagree.

FFS, I disagree every bit as much as you. But that doesn't give me the right to go around making wild claims about his integrity as a coach.

Golden wrote:Lads your arguing over the squad for one wolfhounds match relax.

Gilroys got plenty of time to get recogntion.

We all knew there wouldnt be much changes to the RWC squad. I know some myself included would have liked to have seen us move on from Cullen and O'Leary etc. but realistically they wont have much part to play in the 6 nations.

The problem isn't whose in the squad its whose coaching the squad. We could have Nacewa and half the aussie back line and we'd still be playing the same way. hopefully Kidney and co can get them playing but the squad (where it counts) is pretty much as expected.

No coach ever selects just on form.

Voice of reason. Now don't get cocky! I'll still demand to be talking about the lack of youngblood in the side come the Championship itself!

Get a grip Notch - I'm hardly the only Ulster fan making complaints about this and you've been reading the thread so I think you're well aware that a lot of Ulster fans feel the same way.

If I want to suggest that Kidney is either personally bias with regard to individual players or bias to a particular province then I think I'm entitled to do that.

Its hardly the first time a coach has been accused of having favourites/pets or being bias towards a particular team I think your somewhat over reacting. Also - suggesting that a coach would or should pick on anything other than form is rather laughable in my opinion.

Stop trying to argue the toss over the actual selection when I agree with you, you're wasting your breath. You're preaching to the choir.

I stand by my original statement; anyone who genuinely believes Kidney is biased against any particular province is an idiot.

I didnt say he was biased against a particular province I suggested that he was biased IN FAVOUR of a particular province (Munster) and more specifically some Munster players who could only be described as failed players such as O'Leary and Hurley.

If a coach doesn't pick on Individual form then he still has choices, and they've been used the world over.

He could pick based on particular units that are proven to work - not every player in the unit is the in-form player but when combined in the unit, it simply functions due to familiarity.

He could pick based on results. The majorities coming from the most productive sides on the results tables.

Plus: The players displaying the 'best' form tend to be the players who are also trying hardest. The young are always out to prove themselves worthy - the 'worthy' meanwhile often just cruise through, confident that they'll be picked and confident that they'll put on the afterburners when the real competitions begin. I'm sure Kidney knows at this stage who the cruisers are and they are chosen without recourse to evident form in the lead up.

Not saying I approve of all Kidney's methodology - but he undoubtedly has his and sticks rigidly by it.

[quote="Golden"


The problem isn't whose in the squad its whose coaching the squad. We could have Nacewa and half the aussie back line and we'd still be playing the same way. hopefully Kidney and co can get them playing but the squad (where it counts) is pretty much as expected.

[/quote]

Have to say I pretty much agree with this. Only thing I would say though is that a poor gameplan coupled with a misplaced loyalty that has gone on too long (D'arcy and TOL - Although he finally got it right with the latter) compounds the problem which has led to the mediocre performances we have all witnessed over the last 2 years. I do have faith in Kidney but there is no doubt it has waned over the last year and a half or so. Ireland is a better team than has been shown in that time and it is sad to see. The lack of penetration we have in the backline quite frankly has been alarming and draining from a supporters perspective.

Maybe with no backs coach now, or with one filling in, things will change! But it seems that this optimism I inevitably have before matches, or an attitude where I'm thinking to myself, 'We are so close to clicking, it will happen it's just a matter of time' quite simply almost always fails to come to fruition (except for the odd glimpse/match). Sorry if I sound depressed, but let's face it it is depressing We need to start improving our performances. I'm almost at the point where I'd be happy with that alone regardless of results!

Absolutely agree with the above, Kidney has had his pets like O'Leary and even 31 year old Gavin Duffy (I mean really?) for quite some time, similarly with the total failure that is Tony Buckley. Picking these guys at any level is completely fruitless at this stage as they arent going anywhere internationally, he needs to stop picking these players and start picking on form.

Stop this silly loyalty towards certain players and pick young up and coming talent thats playing well.

In 2009 he took over and said it was time to get the old Slam hoodoo off our backs. We won the Slam.

Then he was free to do what we all knew was needed,and that was to rebuild Ireland for the coming decade. He has to make it a larger and a more fluid system where the journey from underage to Senior squad is smooth and constant. A constant stream of readymade talent, preferably in all positions without the need to go looking for gandmothers.

So, he's at the beginning of the fourth year. Provinces are at a point of strength (Leinster) or are actively re-strengthening (Munster/Ulster). Acadamies are stuffed with young potentials, young players are pushing their senior (and foreign signings) at provincial level and the International side is slowly changing faces... with so many contenders that fights break out at the very mention of a position.

Yeah, I don't like the ...styleless rugby...we're playing at the moment but lets admit it's only four years since he was given the job of refitting Ireland. England are still trying to regroup after their 2004 WC! There are nine more years left in this decade. It's not all gloom.

I am not questioning the fact that Kidney has been building strength in depth, he has been and has done a good job regarding that but at the same time we have been underperforming for the last 2 years.

Also, it could be argued that alot of credit for the strength in depth has to go to the IRFU on a broad scale and to the individual provinces, it isn't all just Kidney at the end of the day!

It is the fact that we have the talent available but are still clueless with regards to a gameplan. If the Ireland of the early 90's had the backline (and strength in depth in that area) that we have now then we would have been laughing! But then guess you could argue the talent now is a result of professionalism but even still.

Our problem in the past (well early 90's at least) was always a lack of cutting edge in the backs. We had the grit and determination and a forward pack who could perform on their day but just lacked the backline to capitalise. Now we don't have that excuse and yet we still can't deliver!

Come to think of it, perhaps professionalism is providing us with these great players and this strength in depth, but at the same time is stifling our performances because of the pressure to perform!

While I think the criticism of Tomas O'Leary is way over the top, did anyone consider the reason might be that both he and Boss's provincial team mates are the outhalfs.


Heart on hand Ulster fans, how well do you think would Marshall do with either Keatley or Madigan with a weeks training? (and bearing in mind its a fairly experienced Saxon squad).

I'm delighted Peter O'Mahoney is not in the Wolfhounds squad - he'd only get injured and Munster cannot afford to lose another backrower at the moment. I bet secretly Brian McLaughlin is delighed he isn't losing Gilroy (who is way down the pecking order anyway) in the Rabbo. Gives Ulster a chance to make up some ground on getting to the Magners playoffs.

Got a time tunnel now have they?

To be fair Sin E, the question of how well Marshall would do if he'd been picked for the WH's is not the right question. The question is whether or not he has done enough to get picked, and my answer to that would be yes!

From what I know of Kidney, he would always put the team first, not the individual. If he thinks that there will be a better team performance with Keatley/O'Leary (or Madigan/Boss), he will go for the best pairing to provide he best team (while being decent to those who don't get picked).

I doubt if he is unusual in this way. You often see it at underage level where the coaches keep the provincial partnerships together.

Ok fair point Sin e, and I don't necessarily disagree with what you say in the post above! But I still think you were initially asking the wrong question. On top of that it is dificult to see an argument for keeping a partnership together which turns out to be to the detriment of a player on form. I agree there needs to be a balance as there is no point in picking a team that will get humiliated ( confidence is important after all) but if you want to start that argument then you could say it should be IHumph and Marshall. That way you'd be blooding 2 new players rather than just one! Not that I think that is a good idea (is not like that combo plays often for Ulster). But at same time altho someone like TOL has experience which is good for other players to be around I still don't think it should be used (in this case) as an excuse to keep a player who deserves a chance out.

Ian Humphreys is 30! I think his international boat has sailed. He has 7 Wolfhound caps and I recall an absolutely comedy of errors between himself & Boss against the Saxons about 2 years ago.

Ok fair enough I am a bit drunk now and perhaps I could have thought of a different example, point is would prob have been better to pick the half backs around Marshall rather than Keatley, or even give Marshall a chance off the bench. Either way is not going to happen!. Bye the way what age is TOL?

And yes i know it's the experiance that settles the team that you're going to come back with fair enough, I am kidding realx

Kidding about what you'll come back with just to clarify, I really need to stop drinking! lol apologies, but my other points still stand

Irishhoneymonster wrote:Ok fair enough I am a bit drunk now and perhaps I could have thought of a different example, point is would prob have been better to pick the half backs around Marshall rather than Keatley, or even give Marshall a chance off the bench. Either way is not going to happen!. Bye the way what age is TOL?

O'Leary has just gone 28 (but don't even attempt to compare his career to either Marshalls or Humphreys - there would be only one winner).

Someone's going to have a sore head tomorrow

Artful_Dodger wrote:I didnt say he was biased against a particular province I suggested that he was biased IN FAVOUR of a particular province (Munster) and more specifically some Munster players who could only be described as failed players such as O'Leary and Hurley.

Have to agree with this. I would say Notch, anyone who didn't think Kidney had preference towards Munster is an idiot. Surely you would agree he has preference towards Munster? It is plainly obvious.

I already have a sore head lol, think is time for bed, and yes was kidding about TOL's age as well, hench the whistle Although he does look about 50 when he's on the pitch

I agree with you Geoff on this one - well mostly. Actually I can see why Marshall and Gilroy aren't there so Deccie's squad makes 100% sense.

Take Marshall for example. Is he likely to supplant either Murray or Reddan? His form has been good... and bad - patchy at best so he hasn't forced his way ahead of either CM or ER. The indignation then shown by posters is that he seems to be behind Boss and TOL. However Boss went to the RWC and plays regularly with Sexton so he is certainly ahead of him in my book. So the position that Marshall has been so shamefully overlooked for is that of 4th Scrum half.
Is Kidney really concerned with that position? Perhaps he is more concerned with 3rd choice fly half in case of an injury to JS or ROG? It makes far more sense for Kidney to play the prospective fly halves with their provincial partners to give them every opportunity to impress. So in the Wolfhounds' game I'd expect a Boss/Madigan start with a TOL/Keatley switch in the second half.

The "Main" squad is obviously two teams. One made up of first choice players and one made up of a mix of experienced has-beens and young wannabees. The Wolfhounds are a similar blend but not as far apart on the spectrum. So someone like Duffy can slot into a number of positions in training and is ideal to play in the centre for a while and FB for a while.

The Wolfhounds game is a straight eliminator between contenders with the winner then being compared to the incumbent cover for the first team. So for example guys like Tuohy and Toner will be trying to outdo each other and in the process convince DK they could edge past DOC for the first team bench spot. Varley or Sherry have a chance in this game to show if they should threaten Cronin and at the very least show who's next in the injury call-ups. I agree Geoff that Kidney will start Trimble, Bowe and Kearney as his back three, so the Wolfhounds game is to see whether Fitzgerald or Hurley should threaten McFadden's bench spot in the Test squad.

BTW Gilroy hasn't been clearly better than the other back three "Additionals", and since none of these players are in contention for a game anyway, is he not much better at Ulster?

Marshall's form has been good and bad? Patchy? Not sure what games you have been watching lately Aukster.. He has been fantastic lately. Finally showing some consistency.

How do you lads reckon the Wolfhounds will go in the A-Team Four nations ?

Rory - Marshall has been playing better in a better team. i.e. When the pack returned from the RWC and started going forward he's looked good, prior to that he was public enemy No.1 for a lot of the Ravenhill faithful. For example in the Leinster game he was villified yet the following week against Edinburgh he was lionised, some people would call that patchy.

Despite this everyone knows he is in far better form than TOL, but is he better making his point for Ulster in a P12 game or getting 20 minutes off the bench in a meaningless A game when he has NO chance of playing in the 6N?

Sin é wrote:From what I know of Kidney, he would always put the team first, not the individual. If he thinks that there will be a better team performance with Keatley/O'Leary (or Madigan/Boss), he will go for the best pairing to provide he best team (while being decent to those who don't get picked).

I doubt if he is unusual in this way. You often see it at underage level where the coaches keep the provincial partnerships together.

Fair point sin but then how do you explain e lack of game time reddan/sexton saw as a pairing internationally. Murray/sexton and reddan/ROG were used but not the ore combinations until ROG eventually usurped sexton again.

I'll never forget the look on his face in the second half of the WC QF. His best laid plans had turned to dust. He had the look of a man in that situation who has no plan B. I think sticking with Kidney is a big mistake as far as the next WC is concerned. He may do OK in this championship, but a poor 6N next year and...oops, too late.

Glas a du wrote:I'll never forget the look on his face in the second half of the WC QF. His best laid plans had turned to dust. He had the look of a man in that situation who has no plan B. I think sticking with Kidney is a big mistake as far as the next WC is concerned. He may do OK in this championship, but a poor 6N next year and...oops, too late.

That really is a pessimistic veiw of world. Kidney is an experienced coach and knows exactly what he is doing.

Everytime there is a team or panel selection there is going to be winners and losers happens everysingle time. Fact of the matter is you cannot please everybody.

I am taking the view that Irish rugby is in a very healthy state right now and am looking forward the 6Ns and the remainder of the HC with high expectations.

Finally anybody who is suggesting that Deccie is biased is just not in touch with reality.

I have to say.....

....I'm really tempted to come out and say that Kidney is a useless, incompetent bollix of a coach and the squads he's picked don't in anyway accurately reflect the cream of Irish rugby talent or the current best players available, that he already had this team selected in september and him viewing the provincial games was a waste of time, that team Ireland is a closed shop...harder to get into than the knights templar, that we are in serious decline unless there are changes at the top including the IRFU cronies guiding Kidneys hand.......

...but I'm not going to do that. I'm going to trust, somehow, that Deccie has a plan, that there is some logic to selecting over the hill players on reputation or never-will-be journeymen ahead of talented youngsters and players at their peak in top form....

In Deccie we trust.

Anyone else see Declan Kidneys latest Twitter update:

"Lièvremont just left, had a good old chin-wag, gonna take a few of his ideas onboard... starting with the moustache! <winks>"

Kidney picks on:

Form
Experience
Familiarity

Now he tends to put too much emphasis on the last at the expense of the first and this leads to one or two unnecessarily conservative selections such as TOL over Marshall, selecting Cullen and omitting Gilroy.

It is important that players understand that form counts which is why TOL over Marshall is wrong. Marshall should be starting for the Wolfhounds. Boss would still be the playing going up to the first team squad regardless.

Cullen is past his sell by date - he has recognized that MOD is past it. Even if Cullen was fit I still believe Tuohy, Toner and McCarthy would have been considered in front of him.

Gilroy should have gone as one of the Additionals.

However having said that these are my minor nit picks and I think it is not on to question the mans integrity because you disagree with some selections. I agree with Notch this is a far more serious statement to make than insulting someone on a forum, which is a 'whatever' moment as far as I am concerned.

I would never question his integrity, I think he's a genuinely nice bloke who understands that the world changes when players cross the whitewash. I just think he's done a good job, but peaked winning the Grand Slam. I don't care if you keep him or not in reality.

I think Kidney is a man of integrity too but given the players he's picked its quite easy to come to the conclusion that a bit part player at Munster or Leinster has a better chance of Ireland selection than a central and integral player at Ulster, regardless of how the provinces are playing.

How Gilroy, who has been ever present for Ulster and scoring crucial tries and Paul Marshall, who has been on fire can be behind the likes of Conway and O'Leary, Ian Humphreys can't make the Wolfhounds despite playing Keatley, who has hardly played this season, of the park recently and Chris Henry who has been arguably the form Irish backrower this year can only make the wolfhounds is outrageous.

Toner and Tuohy are clearly going head to head for Cullens spot in the squad which is ludicrous because both Cullen and O'Callaghan have been rubbish since the RWC and Toner and Touhy have been in the form of their careers.

I think we need a complete new look centre pairing. Its a disgrace that James Downey has been over looked. Him and Earls would be a nod to the future. Missed opportunity.

red_stag wrote:I think we need a complete new look centre pairing. Its a disgrace that James Downey has been over looked. Him and Earls would be a nod to the future. Missed opportunity.

When Ulstermen Mollycoddle?