The Wales vs England bickering thread, 2012 - PONIES ALLOWED!

[TycroesOsprey]

First topic message reminder :

OK, every year we see threads that actually contain really good rugby discussion derailed by the ongoing Wales vs England bickering and WUMMING! I will name no names. I guess we have all been guilty .

Since most of the general bickering comes from the respective fans of Wales and England ; I thought I would create a thread for it in an effort to keep decent rugby discussion relatively WUM free in other threads.

So I will begin, An article in the Western Mail today pointed out how England are copying Gatlands youthful approach with a squad that has an average age of 25 and 428 caps between them.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/01/12/analysis-new-look-england-follow-youthful-wales-lead-91466-30105333/

Wales probable squad (once you have taken out Shane and Wellies from the World cup squad with their probable replacements) lines up at the same average age and about 820 caps between them. England are copying Wales' approcach but are way behind. Clearly all things point to a wales victory in HQ this year.

Discuss

post script

Please may I emphasise that this is a bickering and banter thread, whilst mild wumming and banter are allowed please try not to stray over the line of decency.

[miteyironpaw]

"so lets not go there because its just a bit of B.S and frippery..."

Yes, I agree. Another bit of frippery that frankly the kiwis win all of the time, so let's ignore it. And rugby league too, since the Aussies have a mortgage on that. Yes, "major sports" are defined as those that have a world cup competition that has been won by England.

[Comfort]

id feel inferior to the sportsmen and women that won them, not the the internet trolls who claim the spoils on the sports peoples behalfs as if they have themselves done something worthwhile, without ever lifting their tubby-tubby fingertips, unless of course its to hit the tv remote to turn up the volume on Skysports to watch Barnes & Morris jack eachother off about Tom Croft and Chris Ashton, how England/English teams only lost because of a] refereeing decisions and or b] they play in the toughest league competition in the world and finally end up in eachothers arms in a mutually gushing rendition of Swing low before proclaiming England have to be the favourites for the next 6 nations before showing 73 replays of Johnnys drop goal in 2003, further reminding us, of how the English are so ever-better than anyone else at everything.

of course, Haskell then runs in to the studio and DOMINATES them both.

[english warrior]

Comfort,
you've never lived off Welsh teams spoils, because they have been very slim pickings and thats the only reason why, and as for reffing decisions, well, had England had the rub of the green with officials , maybe our cabinet might have been fuller than it already is.

Mightyiron- Major sports are those played by the most people in the most countrys and Football and Cricket are by far the majorist sports around, while Ruby per se, league and Union don't even get on the graph as what could be called major sports. The fact that England have won in Football Cricket and Rugby is an amazing achievemnet, which Wales have never come near to emulating, its all rather obvious if you take an objective look.

[Breadvan]

id feel inferior to the sportsmen and women that won them, not the the internet trolls who claim the spoils on the sports peoples behalfs as if they have themselves done something worthwhile, without ever lifting their tubby-tubby fingertips, unless of course its to hit the tv remote to turn up the volume on Skysports to watch Barnes & Morris jack eachother off about Tom Croft and Chris Ashton, how England/English teams only lost because of a] refereeing decisions and or b] they play in the toughest league competition in the world and finally end up in eachothers arms in a mutually gushing rendition of Swing low before proclaiming England have to be the favourites for the next 6 nations before showing 73 replays of Johnnys drop goal in 2003, further reminding us, of how the English are so ever-better than anyone else at everything.

of course, Haskell then runs in to the studio and DOMINATES them both.

All sounds a bit gay to me......

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

erm, EW, hate to tell you this but England have only won a 20:20 cricket world cup. I.E. cricket's equivalent of rugby 7s. So by your logic it doesn't really count.

Granted they might have won a test match world cup, if there was one. But since there isn't one ... . Being top of the test rankings is all well and good, but as you've always told us with respect to the rugby rankings they don't mean much really.

[miteyironpaw]

The United States have more olympic medals for rugby than any of country (2) and are the current reigning olympic champions.

If England (or Great Britian or whatever we're called by then) can over turn that and pick up a 7's gold in 2016 I'll be personally starting a campaign here to have 7's recognised as a major sport.

20:20? no chance at the Olympics, so not the same thing at all.

According to several websites, the world's most popular sports by a complicated system of multiplying weighted average physical attendances with tv audiences by weighted again for countries participating and revenues generated are:

baseball
basketball
ice hockey
american football
football
gaelic football
hurling
aussie rules
rugby league
...
rugby union
...
many others including table tennis and things I've never heard of
...
cricket
international tiddly winks

[TrailApe]

Is it not the

English and Welsh Cricket Board

and its only called England coz your average journo/sports presenter are just too lazy?

Just arsking.


(by the way Cricket is NOT a sport).

[english warrior]

Football, Rugby and Cricket, the last of which is, i admit a little iffy, but as no World cup can be played on a test match basis, then we have to accept the lesser forms, but 7's Rugby is so incidental to the real game, while cricket such as one day and 20:20 are more acceptable because there is no way to play all those 5 day test matches. But anyway back to original point, Wales (and New Zealand Kiwire) are one trick pony's, with Rugby their 'Raison d etre' whereas England has spread its wings and won them all, with the exception (comfort ) of Rugby league, so please don't rub it in, as i'll be thinking about RL as i close my eyes whimpering!!!

[Comfort]

[munkian]

Is it not the

English and Welsh Cricket Board

and its only called England coz your average journo/sports presenter are just too lazy?

Just arsking.


(by the way Cricket is NOT a sport).

Like most things in sport,they are English if they win something or British/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish if they are losing.

[english warrior]

Munkian- Spot on there Why else would we have you around, because its ain't as if you 're picturesque !! Ha,ha,ha,ha

[englandglory4ever]

There will surely be a JW career memorial service in the build up to the 6N kick off.

Yes there should be he was a true great of international rugby not a 10 stone weakling like ickle Shane Who.

[englandglory4ever]

"Like most things in sport,they are English if they win something or British/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish if they are losing."

Nice to see the chippy people can keep trotting out the old ones. I suppose its because the Welsh rarely win anything they'd have to be lucky to hear it in the media. I hear there are hundreds of acres of sour grapes growing in the principality these days.

[TrailApe]

Like most things in sport,they are English if they win something or British/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish if they are losing.

Now there you go - I find it's exactly the opposite! in victory, if they are Scots, Norn Irish or Welsh, their nationality is emphasised, whereas if they are English, they are called British.

Funny thing perspective - innit?

[bedfordwelsh]

Even Andy Murray says hes British when he's winning Scottish when he's losing

[TrailApe]

Yeah - but he's a chippy Scot!

[english warrior]

I always, as a matter of course support whoever Andy Murrays opponant is, can't for the life of me remember why that is !! Maybe its because he's a little Dour, grim, and with the personality of a Tomb, either that or its his support of Englands opponants!!

[miteyironpaw]

I can see Andy Murray winning Wimbledon right after Scotland declare independence. Then he'll just be "from these Isles", but we'll claim it.

[englandglory4ever]

Andy Murray has to be one of the most detestable sportsmen ever. He can stick his kilt where the sun don't shine.

[munkian]

Detestable ? He doesn't have a personality to detest

[miteyironpaw]

He's a sportsman. That's what he's supposed to be good at. It's not Britain's Got Tennis Talent. He doesn't have to be lovable. It's not a cartoon. Now leave the lad alone. I'd rather see him win than that insufferably smug Swiss.

[KickAndChase]

He's a sportsman. That's what he's supposed to be good at. It's not Britain's Got Tennis Talent. He doesn't have to be lovable. It's not a cartoon. Now leave the lad alone. I'd rather see him win than that insufferably smug Swiss.

Hear hear!

[Breadvan]

He's a sportsman. That's what he's supposed to be good at. It's not Britain's Got Tennis Talent. He doesn't have to be lovable. It's not a cartoon. Now leave the lad alone. I'd rather see him win than that insufferably smug Swiss.

The media label him a 'dour scot' yet he can take the pish out of himself by appeaing on comic relief etc. . He's the best these Isles have so support the guy!

[miteyironpaw]

Nice one Breadvan, also like the way we're working up the phrase "these Isles". I think that one might have some legs for the future when the Scotts take their oil fields, dedicate the output purely to the pursuit of deep frying confectionary and leave us to our sporting success and valuable pound in isolation (with the citizens of the principality).

[englandglory4ever]

Why has the bickering thread about Wales v England turned in to one about the Scots? Especially that dourest of all Scots called Murray.

Have the Scots been feeling left out?

It seems they like to be included in the UK afterall.

[miteyironpaw]

Why has the bickering thread about Wales v England turned in to one about the Scots? Especially that dourest of all Scots called Murray.

Because the England v Wales bickering seems to have migrated to the "comments on RWC" thread?

[Woodstock]

.......and the English have resorted to building 'cyber castles' to try and keep the Welsh down. ho hum failed again bwhahahaha what what.

[english warrior]

Woodstock -- 'To try and keep the Welsh down. Ho hum failed again'

Eh!!!! Que, sorry i must have this all wrong, because i thought that England conquered Wales about 800 years ago (and counting) and built all those tourist attractions like Caernarvon castle et al?

So, as it were, been there, done that (for 800 years)

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

.......and the English have resorted to building 'cyber castles' to try and keep the Welsh down. ho hum failed again bwhahahaha what what.

Shut up or the English 7/8ths of me will drown your computer with an e-resevoir.

Pay your parking fine


etc.


I thought the Welsh hated the Irish more now anyway?

[Comfort]

No, we welsh still hate Thatcher.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

No, we welsh still hate Thatcher.

I don't think the Welsh have a monopoly there

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

No, we welsh still hate Thatcher.

I don't think the Welsh have a monopoly there

If all you lefties had your way there'd be a state owned monoploy on it, a competitive market means we are all free to hate her.

[Glas a du]

I vote chocholate digestive

Oh hang on bickering...

[miteyironpaw]

Why are the Welsh always saying that something they have done (for example winning a 6N grandslam) is harder than something they haven't done (like making a world cup final)?

Or for example, they claimed they could have won the world cup, if they'd been able to make the final. So what they're saying is if they were good enough to beat the team that they lost to who were not good enough to beat the team who ultimately won that is some kind of proof that they could have beaten the team that beat the team that beat them.

It really irritates me purely for it's complete and utter lack of logic.

Serious now, tell me why you guys do it?

[Comfort]

Edwards isnt welsh

[Guest]

Edwards isnt welsh

Surely he qualifies on residency!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

He used to think he was a miner, that makes him more Welsh than George North, Ben Morgan or either Shingler.

[Glas a du]

Go back to drowning fish Sais.

[TycroesOsprey]

Go back to drowning fish Sais.

god alone knows what this thread is going to be like the closer we get to the game

[TycroesOsprey]

Woodstock -- 'To try and keep the Welsh down. Ho hum failed again'

Eh!!!! Que, sorry i must have this all wrong, because i thought that England conquered Wales about 800 years ago (and counting) and built all those tourist attractions like Caernarvon castle et al?

So, as it were, been there, done that (for 800 years)

If were really going to get historical, Yep the Edwardian conquest was in the 13th century but as most Englishmen seem to forget, We sent a welshman born in Pembroke to a welsh family to Bosworth Field in 1485 with a welsh army who as I recall whooped those English Warrios,( oooh a horse my kingdon for a horse,). He even had a dragon flag, the royal arms of England became a dragon and a lion, the welsh Tudor dynasty was established, then in 1605 we handed over to the scots after a run monarchs who changed the face of British society, Henry tudor ring a bell? or his son Henry VIII? or even his grandaughter Elizabeth I?

Since 1485 youve had Welsh, Scots, Dutch, German and a bit of greek thrown in so I wouldnt gloat overly about the Edwardian conquest given the subsequent history, In fact given Edward I was more French than English I wouldnt even gloat about that.

[Knackeredknees]

Woodstock -- 'To try and keep the Welsh down. Ho hum failed again'

Eh!!!! Que, sorry i must have this all wrong, because i thought that England conquered Wales about 800 years ago (and counting) and built all those tourist attractions like Caernarvon castle et al?

So, as it were, been there, done that (for 800 years)

If were really going to get historical, Yep the Edwardian conquest was in the 13th century but as most Englishmen seem to forget, We sent a welshman born in Pembroke to a welsh family to Bosworth Field in 1485 with a welsh army who as I recall whooped those English Warrios,( oooh a horse my kingdon for a horse,). He even had a dragon flag, the royal arms of England became a dragon and a lion, the welsh Tudor dynasty was established, then in 1605 we handed over to the scots after a run monarchs who changed the face of British society, Henry tudor ring a bell? or his son Henry VIII? or even his grandaughter Elizabeth I?

Since 1485 youve had Welsh, Scots, Dutch, German and a bit of greek thrown in so I wouldnt gloat overly about the Edwardian conquest given the subsequent history, In fact given Edward I was more French than English I wouldnt even gloat about that.

Yep and every Welshman(or woman) can trace their roots back to before the roman invasion and prove that they are pure british celts and not had a drop of Roman/Saxon/Angle/Pict/Irish/Norse/Norman or English in the family line and will never even think about breeding outside the Dyke.

On this island we are all a bit mixed up

[TycroesOsprey]

Woodstock -- 'To try and keep the Welsh down. Ho hum failed again'

Eh!!!! Que, sorry i must have this all wrong, because i thought that England conquered Wales about 800 years ago (and counting) and built all those tourist attractions like Caernarvon castle et al?

So, as it were, been there, done that (for 800 years)

If were really going to get historical, Yep the Edwardian conquest was in the 13th century but as most Englishmen seem to forget, We sent a welshman born in Pembroke to a welsh family to Bosworth Field in 1485 with a welsh army who as I recall whooped those English Warrios,( oooh a horse my kingdon for a horse,). He even had a dragon flag, the royal arms of England became a dragon and a lion, the welsh Tudor dynasty was established, then in 1605 we handed over to the scots after a run monarchs who changed the face of British society, Henry tudor ring a bell? or his son Henry VIII? or even his grandaughter Elizabeth I?

Since 1485 youve had Welsh, Scots, Dutch, German and a bit of greek thrown in so I wouldnt gloat overly about the Edwardian conquest given the subsequent history, In fact given Edward I was more French than English I wouldnt even gloat about that.

Yep and every Welshman(or woman) can trace their roots back to before the roman invasion and prove that they are pure british celts and not had a drop of Roman/Saxon/Angle/Pict/Irish/Norse/Norman or English in the family line and will never even think about breeding outside the Dyke.

On this island we are all a bit mixed up

Actually if you bothered to look at the DNA profile and current theory on the migrations of the 4th-10th century, you would know tha the profile accross the British Isles is pretty similiar, whlist there are clear areas of Norse and Germanic DNA in the Eastern counties it is not a significant signal. As for the picts and Irish they share the same DNA signiture as the Welsh or Scots as they were of course celtic. The southern med DNA profile most assosciated with the romans barely made a mark on the DNA signature of the British Isles. Not suprising really considering the comsmopilitan nature of the Empire which assimilated local ruling elites and allowed them to run the empire in the locality.

The English migration of the 5-6th century was not a mass migration but the aristocratic imposition of a ruling elite on the already in situ population. The DNA markers from mitochondrial DNA pretty much prove that. The British simply adopted the language of the indvaders and carried on. The law codes of Ine of Wessex in the 8th century demonstrate the mass of the population in Wessex was of Brythonic descent but this was thought to be a Western anomoly until the British DNA profile was researched over the last ten years. That profiling has led to a massive shift in our understanding not only of the migrations but also of subsequent invasions.

In 1066 the arrival of 5000 Normans did not effect the dna profile of 3 mllion native inhabitants not only because of the small size of teh Norman popuulation but also because of the lack of intermarraige between the two populations. Of course Norman DNA itself is mostly Norse in origin so it is difficult to guage their impact and more research is being done. If you can trace your family back over 100 years then there is a 90%+ chance that your DNA profile is British/Celtic. Your actually porobably more welsh than you think and the chance that you have Germanic DNA from the 5th century migratinon is miniscule unless you can trace your line over 100 years and are from Kent or East Anglia Even then at best it is only a 10% chance. Your more welsh than you understand. In the West the DNA profile becomes 98%+ Brythonic. This idea that we are a mixed bag in these islands actually doesnt stack up in the face of the Scientific and histroical evidence.

Im a history lecturer in real life, wanna play some more?

[Knackeredknees]

Woodstock -- 'To try and keep the Welsh down. Ho hum failed again'

Eh!!!! Que, sorry i must have this all wrong, because i thought that England conquered Wales about 800 years ago (and counting) and built all those tourist attractions like Caernarvon castle et al?

So, as it were, been there, done that (for 800 years)

If were really going to get historical, Yep the Edwardian conquest was in the 13th century but as most Englishmen seem to forget, We sent a welshman born in Pembroke to a welsh family to Bosworth Field in 1485 with a welsh army who as I recall whooped those English Warrios,( oooh a horse my kingdon for a horse,). He even had a dragon flag, the royal arms of England became a dragon and a lion, the welsh Tudor dynasty was established, then in 1605 we handed over to the scots after a run monarchs who changed the face of British society, Henry tudor ring a bell? or his son Henry VIII? or even his grandaughter Elizabeth I?

Since 1485 youve had Welsh, Scots, Dutch, German and a bit of greek thrown in so I wouldnt gloat overly about the Edwardian conquest given the subsequent history, In fact given Edward I was more French than English I wouldnt even gloat about that.

Yep and every Welshman(or woman) can trace their roots back to before the roman invasion and prove that they are pure british celts and not had a drop of Roman/Saxon/Angle/Pict/Irish/Norse/Norman or English in the family line and will never even think about breeding outside the Dyke.

On this island we are all a bit mixed up

Actually if you bothered to look at the DNA profile and current theory on the migrations of the 4th-10th century, you would know tha the profile accross the British Isles is pretty similiar, whlist there are clear areas of Norse and Germanic DNA in the Eastern counties it is not a significant signal. As for the picts and Irish they share the same DNA signiture as the Welsh or Scots as they were of course celtic. The southern med DNA profile most assosciated with the romans barely made a mark on the DNA signature of the British Isles. Not suprising really considering the comsmopilitan nature of the Empire which assimilated local ruling elites and allowed them to run the empire in the locality.

The English migration of the 5-6th century was not a mass migration but the aristocratic imposition of a ruling elite on the already in situ population. The DNA markers from mitochondrial DNA pretty much prove that. The British simply adopted the language of the indvaders and carried on. The law codes of Ine of Wessex in the 8th century demonstrate the mass of the population in Wessex was of Brythonic descent but this was thought to be a Western anomoly until the British DNA profile was researched over the last ten years. That profiling has led to a massive shift in our understanding not only of the migrations but also of subsequent invasions.

In 1066 the arrival of 5000 Normans did not effect the dna profile of 3 mllion native inhabitants not only because of the small size of teh Norman popuulation but also because of the lack of intermarraige between the two populations. Of course Norman DNA itself is mostly Norse in origin so it is difficult to guage their impact and more research is being done. If you can trace your family back over 100 years then there is a 90%+ chance that your DNA profile is British/Celtic. Your actually porobably more welsh than you think and the chance that you have Germanic DNA from the 5th century migratinon is miniscule unless you can trace your line over 100 years and are from Kent or East Anglia Even then at best it is only a 10% chance. Your more welsh than you understand. In the West the DNA profile becomes 98%+ Brythonic. This idea that we are a mixed bag in these islands actually doesnt stack up in the face of the Scientific and histroical evidence.

Im a history lecturer in real life, wanna play some more?

This i know, but as it was the bickering thread i thought i would join in with the childish name calling

However why do you refer it as Welsh when the correct term would be British Celt( and making redundant all the Seas/Celts Love sacks that happens)

[TycroesOsprey]

Actually the correct term would be Cymbrogi if we were to use the language of the 5th century or Brythonic if we are talking in a modern sense, Celt isnt really a good word to describe the population but it is too ingrained in most peoples psyche these days. I wouldnt use the term Celt in a lecture I do in my post because it simplifies things.

Since Welsh is a Jutish word for Romanised foreigner it is applied to the whole Brythonic population rather than to the Geographic area of modern day Wales so it can be used interchangably.

[Guest]

Tycroes, I bet you're relieved that Wikipedia isn't on strike today

[english warrior]

Germanic DNA is far more prevelant than the 10 % placed on here and ethnic cleansing was as bad as it ever was and recently read an article about the Iceni ( Of Boudicca fame) and the Trinovantes and apparently a lot of Iceni graves had DNA taken out of them and matched with local populations, which really didn't match at all,( or not much)

So the search was widened and it was found that the descendants of these people were now living in south Wales, i honestly think that it was around Ponty (but not sure) and it was thought that they were refugees escaping from 'dark age' Ethnic cleansing and hence the vast majority of East Anglia was solidly Germanic with a lesser admixture of Germanic genetic markers the further west you went. However, the majority of English genetic make-up was Germanic, either Angle, Saxon, Jute or Dane. Therefore we are not Celts apart from a few clusters!!

[Knackeredknees]

Actually the correct term would be Cymbrogi if we were to use the language of the 5th century or Brythonic if we are talking in a modern sense, Celt isnt really a good word to describe the population but it is too ingrained in most peoples psyche these days. I wouldnt use the term Celt in a lecture I do in my post because it simplifies things.

Since Welsh is a Jutish word for Romanised foreigner it is applied to the whole Brythonic population rather than to the Geographic area of modern day Wales so it can be used interchangably.

So can i pull you up if your start any us Celts you Saes comments?

[TycroesOsprey]

Germanic DNA is far more prevelant than the 10 % placed on here and ethnic cleansing was as bad as it ever was and recently read an article about the Iceni ( Of Boudicca fame) and the Trinovantes and apparently a lot of Iceni graves had DNA taken out of them and matched with local populations, which really didn't match at all,( or not much)

So the search was widened and it was found that the descendants of these people were now living in south Wales, i honestly think that it was around Ponty (but not sure) and it was thought that they were refugees escaping from 'dark age' Ethnic cleansing and hence the vast majority of East Anglia was solidly Germanic with a lesser admixture of Germanic genetic markers the further west you went. However, the majority of English genetic make-up was Germanic, either Angle, Saxon, Jute or Dane. Therefore we are not Celts apart from a few clusters!!

Sorry thats very wrong, so could you link the article so I can ensure my students dont use it or at least tell me who wrote it? Ten years ago we thought the Angle, Saxon, Friesan ,Jutish migrant population was as much as 500000, As research has developd so has our understanding and most estimates revise that down to about 50k, Ive even seen an estimate in the National Gerographic of 10k but personally feel that was far too low. Dark Age ethnic cleansing is a difficult one, We have the historical record of Bede and Gildas that absolutly confirm this. However we have an archaeological record and now a Genetic profile that absolutly refute that theory. There must have been atrocities but Im more inclined to believe the scientists and archaeologists on that on. Yes there are anomalies but the 10% figure is correct on current research (That doesnt mean new evidence will come to light which again changes our knowledge, its quite exciting for us geeks at the moment that our historical theories can now be tested against real science.

Hey Safe, you know what, Ispend so much time in class criticising wikipedia and telling students not to use it but on Wednesday I sadly realised how often I go to it to look for a quick answer ibstead of one of my books, its very bad of me but in this case so far its from memory

[Guest]

Hey Safe, you know what, Ispend so much time in class criticising wikipedia and telling students not to use it but on Wednesday I sadly realised how often I go to it to look for a quick answer ibstead of one of my books, its very bad of me but in this case so far its from memory

Aye, it's true. I tried to get on there a few times on Wednesday I bet there were pub quiz teams all round the world not getting as good scores as usual this week

[englandglory4ever]

Margaret Thatcher was a sex bomb in her day. I fancied her.

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