Ian Madigan

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I've just been watching the highlights of Leinster v Treviso again and decided to start this thread discussing the young outhalf from Leinster,his prospects at club and international level.

Madigan has proven himself far quicker than I would have thought possible,he benefitted from an injury to Matt Berquist but has grabbed his opportunity with both hands and has now started regularly in the Rabo and has got decent gametime in the HC.

This season he has a try scoring record that a winger would be proud of and his passing is phenomenal,he can fire quick flat passes over nearly half the width of the pitch which allied to his running game is a deadly combination,defend narrow and he can put his wingers into space,defend wide and he can find a gap himself.

The only question marks I can see is over his kicking game,from hand he seems to have a good boot but time will tell how effective he is.He is 4th choice kicker at Leinster so needs more experience of kicking under big game conditions but from the little I've seen it shouldn' be a problem.

Anyway what are others opinions of him and how far do you think he could go in the game?

Well then given how sh1t he plays for Ireland its better for everyone that he steps aside and let Madigan or someone have ago, because at the moment a 35 year old has been according to some is playing better than him for his province. Oh hang on do I hear all the cries for deccie to pick the team on form

He would seriously want to grow a pair and start showing what he can do or fade away...

Oh hang on now I hear the cries of....its not our Johnny its the coach's tactics

DOD wrote:Oh hang on now I hear the cries of....its not our Johnny its the coach's tactics

A little bit from Column A and a little bit from Column B...

Well DOD, apart from the fact I don't think you watch much Ulster rugby anyway, we probably scored the best try of the season over the weekend there against the dragons. I'm guessing you missed that though. I think Ulster are very capable of playing expansive rugby, but we do lack the consistency to do so. But whether Ulster do or don't, doesn't mean Munster do.. if only Ireland played like you DOD, with their offence being their best defence

Also considering how crap Ireland are and have been for some time, I think it is better for everyone that Kidney step aside and give someone else a go

DOD wrote:Well then given how sh1t he plays for Ireland its better for everyone that he steps aside and let Madigan or someone have ago, because at the moment a 35 year old has been according to some is playing better than him for his province. Oh hang on do I hear all the cries for deccie to pick the team on form

He would seriously want to grow a pair and start showing what he can do or fade away...

Oh hang on now I hear the cries of....its not our Johnny its the coach's tactics

I've read that sentence a couple of times, and I've come to the conclusion that it's just gibberish. You imply that Sexton has been "sh1t" for Ireland because some people think ROG has been playing better for Munster? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Maybe we should start ROG in the next game, tell him to stand a lot flatter and attack the gainline himself, tell him when we've got ruck ball on the opposition line to come on to it at pace and try to burst the defense. Then tell him if he doesn't play this way he'll be dropped.

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:Well then given how sh1t he plays for Ireland its better for everyone that he steps aside and let Madigan or someone have ago, because at the moment a 35 year old has been according to some is playing better than him for his province. Oh hang on do I hear all the cries for deccie to pick the team on form

He would seriously want to grow a pair and start showing what he can do or fade away...

Oh hang on now I hear the cries of....its not our Johnny its the coach's tactics

I've read that sentence a couple of times, and I've come to the conclusion that it's just gibberish. You imply that Sexton has been "sh1t" for Ireland because some people think ROG has been playing better for Munster? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Maybe we should start ROG in the next game, tell him to stand a lot flatter and attack the gainline himself, tell him when we've got ruck ball on the opposition line to come on to it at pace and try to burst the defense. Then tell him if he doesn't play this way he'll be dropped.

All irrelevant if you can't do an oh's primary duties - manage the game and take the points when offered.

Why does Sexton endlessly and aimlessly kick the ball for Ireland but not for Leinster? Is it because international rugby is a different sport, with different rules? Or is it that he’s been asked to do it by his national coaching team? You can’t manage the game when you’re instructed to kick the ball away ad nauseam.

HC rugby is different to international, Mick, you need to kick the ball away. Especially when your backs are getting nowhere like against Wales. Sexton should have used a bit of cop on, and realised "hey flat defensive line, chip over the top for Bowe to run onto" He kicked a lot but his kicking was not well executed and they were the wrong type of kicks to be using.

I actually agree with Stag, the guy is pretty weak mentally.

Sin é wrote:
All irrelevant if you can't do an oh's primary duties - manage the game and take the points when offered.

.... and doing the Primary OH's duties is irrelevent if your OH can't do the basic rugby players duties i.e. tackle, read the game, pass and retain the ball in contact.

There's no point kicking a penalty or drop goal and then letting in 7 points up the other end through poor defence or a turnover either....

Here a revolutionary idea - lets play the 10 best suited to be tactics being employed.

At the moment the tactics Ireland are employing suit O'Gara better.
Sexton is being asked to play like O'Gara and guess what it is going very well.

Personally I would prefer to play tactics that play to Sextons strengths not his weaknesses.

Not confined to Sexton either, Irish tactics are also nullifying Ferris strengths as a ball carrier - not his job in the Ireland set up

Mickado wrote:Why does Sexton endlessly and aimlessly kick the ball for Ireland but not for Leinster? Is it because international rugby is a different sport, with different rules? Or is it that he’s been asked to do it by his national coaching team? You can’t manage the game when you’re instructed to kick the ball away ad nauseam.

Looks to me he just panics and he kicks the ball away (poorly). He certainly doesn't give the impression its a planned tactic - if it was, he would be better at it. He is under a lot more pressure than he is at club level. He also probably doesn't trust those around him (Ireland has a different backline to Leinster with Earls, Trimble & Bowe in their as well).

Thomond, has he said anything to suggest that he's mentally weak or are we all just arriving at this conclusion ourselves?

I would never describe the guy as weak, when ROG was kicking a drop goal after 40 odd phases Sexton was, himself saving the day for Leinster with a last minute penalty, when Leinster were dead and buried in the HC final who came out and played as well as any OH ever has in the history of the competition?

I understand that HC rugby and international rugby are a on a different level, but there are big pressures at HC level too. They never phase him. Has he ever said he feel's like ROG is putting him off his game or are we just putting words in him mouth?

It's gas, one fella isn't playing well so people assume "well he must not be very good, i know i've seen him play well before but it must be the step up to international level, yeah he must be weak. It's nothing to do with a general maliase in the team, no the team is fine."

Some people have short memories. Sextons restarts were immaculate against Wales, we won nearly every one. Both of ROG's were far too deep and lead directly to scores for Wales.

We were hammered down the 10-12 channel at the RWC and this time Roberts was virtually anonomous. Our defensive weakenesses were in the wider channels but thats better than being pummeled through the middle and at least forces the opposition to be creative.

It seems many people, including much of the media have a vendetta against Sexton and simply cannot be objective when evaluating his performance v ROG's.

Amazing things can happen when you let your outhalf take the ball to the gainline and pass. It's a chicken and egg situation. You say he needed to stand deep and kick because the backs are getting nowhere. But the deeper he stands and the more often he kicks the less likely we are to create anything.

Having said all that, you do need to kick a little bit more at test level because it's rare to have the same amount of time and go-forward Leinster commonly have. And it's not why we lost.

But I do feel our tactics are very over-cautious. Ultimately we too often hand the initiative back to the opposition. I would like to see a lot more phase play from Ireland. We have a lot of great ball carriers who just aren't really involved right now.

roddersm wrote:We were hammered down the 10-12 channel at the RWC and this time Roberts was virtually anonomous. Our defensive weakenesses were in the wider channels but thats better than being pummeled through the middle and at least forces the opposition to be creative.

We had a very, very narrow set-up in defence. Midfield was crowded with defenders and the two wingers were left to cover vast expanses of open field themselves. Nothing to do with who was at 10, purely our defensive strategy.

roddersm wrote:Some people have short memories. Sextons restarts were immaculate against Wales, we won nearly every one. Both of ROG's were far too deep and lead directly to scores for Wales.

We were hammered down the 10-12 channel at the RWC and this time Roberts was virtually anonomous. Our defensive weakenesses were in the wider channels but thats better than being pummeled through the middle and at least forces the opposition to be creative.

It seems many people, including much of the media have a vendetta against Sexton and simply cannot be objective when evaluating his performance v ROG's.

Rods, I suggest you watch the Northampton v Munster game to be see a masterclass in restarts from ROG (and Zebo chasing), in particular the last one of the game which lead to Zebo winning the ball deep in the Northampton half and Munster going onto score a try. For the record, all O'Gara's kick-offs were long and Zebo was magnificent winning them. People think he got man of the match or scoreing 3 tries - they were just the icing on the way he won those restarts.

Our selection is disjointed. We pick small centres who need quick ball but pick big physical scrum halves who slow the play down.

Sexton is therefore forced to drop deeper and kick more.

The team is a mishmash of styles and it occaisionally works but often doesn't.

Notice how different Kearney played compared to how he played for Leinster this year. He was brilliant but kicked far more and rarely joined the line.

Trimble the same, he was hardly used.

So what's wrong then Sin, how come his restarts were poor against Wales? Was it the step up in quality from the HC to international level?

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Some people have short memories. Sextons restarts were immaculate against Wales, we won nearly every one. Both of ROG's were far too deep and lead directly to scores for Wales.

We were hammered down the 10-12 channel at the RWC and this time Roberts was virtually anonomous. Our defensive weakenesses were in the wider channels but thats better than being pummeled through the middle and at least forces the opposition to be creative.

It seems many people, including much of the media have a vendetta against Sexton and simply cannot be objective when evaluating his performance v ROG's.

Rods, I suggest you watch the Northampton v Munster game to be see a masterclass in restarts from ROG (and Zebo chasing), in particular the last one of the game which lead to Zebo winning the ball deep in the Northampton half and Munster going onto score a try. For the record, all O'Gara's kick-offs were long and Zebo was magnificent winning them. People think he got man of the match or scoreing 3 tries - they were just the icing on the way he won those restarts.

But of course Sextons Heineken Cup form is irrelevant

Sin é wrote:Rods, I suggest you watch the Northampton v Munster game to be see a masterclass in restarts from ROG

I suggest you watch the last 10 minutes of the Wales game.

Notch, we do kick too often but it is down to the out half to decide what type of kicks he does, that is on Sexton. Against Wales, I thought he showed a complete lack of ability of thinking on his feet. If you're standing too deep and feel it isn't working you change it. Whether your an outhalf at Junior level or international level, you need to show some initiative and think on your feet. Like in any sport (i.e. QB can change the play called, soccer player realises the opposition wingers are getting sucked in so the full backs can now bomb forward)



I actually thought he was overhyped and Madigan looks the more complete and natural footballer.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:Rods, I suggest you watch the Northampton v Munster game to be see a masterclass in restarts from ROG

I suggest you watch the last 10 minutes of the Wales game.

How many of our own restarts did Ireland win in the Wales game?

Yeah, thats why I would rather see O'Gara start if we're going to play like that. Also, I would rather see us not play like that so much.

roddersm wrote:Our selection is disjointed. We pick small centres who need quick ball but pick big physical scrum halves who slow the play down.

Sexton is therefore forced to drop deeper and kick more.

The team is a mishmash of styles and it occaisionally works but often doesn't.

Notice how different Kearney played compared to how he played for Leinster this year. He was brilliant but kicked far more and rarely joined the line.

Trimble the same, he was hardly used.

Rodders I have never agreed with one of your posts more - absolutely spot on

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Some people have short memories. Sextons restarts were immaculate against Wales, we won nearly every one. Both of ROG's were far too deep and lead directly to scores for Wales.

We were hammered down the 10-12 channel at the RWC and this time Roberts was virtually anonomous. Our defensive weakenesses were in the wider channels but thats better than being pummeled through the middle and at least forces the opposition to be creative.

It seems many people, including much of the media have a vendetta against Sexton and simply cannot be objective when evaluating his performance v ROG's.

Rods, I suggest you watch the Northampton v Munster game to be see a masterclass in restarts from ROG (and Zebo chasing), in particular the last one of the game which lead to Zebo winning the ball deep in the Northampton half and Munster going onto score a try. For the record, all O'Gara's kick-offs were long and Zebo was magnificent winning them. People think he got man of the match or scoreing 3 tries - they were just the icing on the way he won those restarts.

But of course Sextons Heineken Cup form is irrelevant

In this instance yes, Rods was wondering why ROG kick-offs were deep? I'm explaining how they do work.

Any kind of restart can work if planned and executed correctly. It's not an issue of players being at fault. It's an issue of players not being on the same wavelength.

Notch, I would like to see Sexton play at 12. D'Arcy is doing feck all, and we need a 12 who won't get destroyed in defence and is potent in attack. For all my complaints about Sexton in the kicking game, the main problem with our backs has been our centres and as a result we have had problems getting the ball to the wings.

I would also quite like to see that Thomond

I disagree with your restart theory though. It is incredibly difficult to get the perfect restart. It requires a bit of a screw up from the opposition and the perfect chase. Northampton messed up one or two restarts and should have dropped deeper against Munster.

Notch wrote:Any kind of restart can work if planned and executed correctly. It's not an issue of players being at fault. It's an issue of players not being on the same wavelength.

The team are in serious trouble if they don't understand if you are not winning your own short restarts, the further the ball is kicked away from your own try line (limiting drop goal opportunities etc) the better.

Surprise, surprise.

Another thread turns into ROG vs Sexton and you have the same people making the same arguments over and over.

Mickado wrote:

It's gas, one fella isn't playing well so people assume "well he must not be very good, i know i've seen him play well before but it must be the step up to international level, yeah he must be weak. It's nothing to do with a general maliase in the team, no the team is fine."

Sexton is just overhyped. Means nothing being successful at European Cup level. O'Gara is regarded as being not just the best European outhalf for the first 15 years of the comp., but the best player of it and an awful lot of people seem to think he is Poopie at international level.

To be fair now, I usually back up Sexton but I feel he was very poor against Wales. I like Madigan though. He has more potential/upside than Sexton.

ROG wins best player over the previous 15 years, 2 years ago. And you're telling me that Sexton's HC form is irrelevant.

Mickado wrote:ROG wins best player over the previous 15 years, 2 years ago. And you're telling me that Sexton's HC form is irrelevant.

All I'm saying is that ROG is (generally) rated at European Cup level (as is Sexton). ROG is (generally) not rated at international level, so its hardly unusual if european cup form doesn't transfer to the international stage.

Thomond wrote:To be fair now, I usually back up Sexton but I feel he was very poor against Wales. I like Madigan though. He has more potential/upside than Sexton.

Madigan is a youngfellah who has not even being given license to kick penos yet by his provincial coach.

Great youngfellah with loads of promise, but at the start of the season he would have been fourth choice OH for Leinster.

You can't just sling him into the national team.

Anyone would think Sexton was a focking gibbering wreck reading some of the posts. OK some people don't like him, we get it. OK Rog has been the best out half in Ireland for a number of years, We get it too.

What we don't get is how every bit of bad play/tactics/etc can be fixed by sending Jonny off to play pocket billiards instead of Rugby for the next 3 years.

PS. I go off and leave this thread for a few hours and it degenerates into a Rog v Sexton sh1tfight with Munster fans on one side and all other fans on the other. WTF.

Sin é wrote:
All I'm saying is that ROG is (generally) rated at European Cup level (as is Sexton). ROG is (generally) not rated at international level, so its hardly unusual if european cup form doesn't transfer to the international stage.

So basically we should just forget about Madigan then as his HEC form is irrelavent too? Nice one sin.

I like Sexton, I think some people on here are just protecting him. He was bad against Wales, he was. The tactics may have inhibited him a bit but he needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck. Or at least notice how much space there is behind the defence. If there is that much space behind the defence, you put it in behind them. I played hooker and I noticed that.


Also I'm not advocating Madigan playing ahead of Sexton, I just said Madigan shows more promise than Sexton did at that age. Which I don't think it untrue.

I don't think I have shown any provincial bias, I haven't even brought up ROG (Sexton deserves to start)

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
All I'm saying is that ROG is (generally) rated at European Cup level (as is Sexton). ROG is (generally) not rated at international level, so its hardly unusual if european cup form doesn't transfer to the international stage.

So basically we should just forget about Madigan then as his HEC form is irrelavent too? Nice one sin.

No, we shouldn't forget him. He is 22, not 26. He needs time to develop. He looks to have great potential though (more potential than Keatley for instance).

Thomond wrote:I like Sexton, I think some people on here are just protecting him. He was bad against Wales, he was. The tactics may have inhibited him a bit but he needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck. Or at least notice how much space there is behind the defence. If there is that much space behind the defence, you put it in behind them. I played hooker and I noticed that.


Also I'm not advocating Madigan playing ahead of Sexton, I just said Madigan shows more promise than Sexton did at that age. Which I don't think it untrue.

I don't think I have shown any provincial bias, I haven't even brought up ROG (Sexton deserves to start)

Wasn't directed at you there Thomond. (Well most of it )

Just bored with the eternal debate. (Even if I contributed to it a bit)

I would hope that we all want Sexton to play well for Ireland, and for Rog's excellent qualities to be utilised where needed.

My perception (and it may be wrong) is that Rog wants to be the main man and doesn't want to sit on the bench for 60 to 70 mins.

Whether this is right or wrong, understandable or not, is a matter of opinion. Personally I wish he would assume that role and help make Sexton a better player for the good of Irish Rugby. I'm not saying that that is right or wrong either, and those who say Rog should not have to do that have a fair point, just my preference.

Anyways. I'm now prolonging the debate that I am complaining about, on a thread that should be about Ian Madigan. Sorry.

Is Madigan to small for test rugby though?

The only positive of this is it could and should push Sexton to make himself a better player. I think it was Brett Favre who played for the Green Bay Packers, who wouldn't leave or help rookie Aaron Rodgers while Favre was there. Rodgers is now the best QB out there while Favre has retired, it will push Sexton to the limit.

We care too much about size and weight in rugby Feckless.

Am I the only one who thought is was a good thing for Sexton to be essentially told "play like ROG and kick it"

Kidney could have just picked ROG. Instead he challenged Sexton to play the game a certain way. I think ROG would have done better but that game will stand to Sexton in time.

Also, Madigan isn't too small IMO. Looks like he is developing very nicely.

Thomond wrote:I like Sexton, I think some people on here are just protecting him. He was bad against Wales, he was. The tactics may have inhibited him a bit but he needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck. Or at least notice how much space there is behind the defence. If there is that much space behind the defence, you put it in behind them. I played hooker and I noticed that.

The problem I have with that is this.In the WC QF RoG did the exact same thing,long aimless kicks no kicking for lineouts,chips over the top or grubber kicks.Can you explain why two of the best outhalves in Europe would both make he same mistakes over and over again if it wasn't an instruction from the coaches.

ROG was Poopie that day and rightly deserves some flak. Thedifference is ROG has shown the ability to alter a game plan or at least think on his feet for Ireland, has Sexton? Both deserve some criticism for not altering a gameplan that was clearly not working. Although Wales left little space in behind in the 1/4 final.

Thomond wrote:ROG was Poopie that day and rightly deserves some flak. Thedifference is ROG has shown the ability to alter a game plan or at least think on his feet for Ireland, has Sexton? Both deserve some criticism for not altering a gameplan that was clearly not working. Although Wales left little space in behind in the 1/4 final.

When has he shown this ability give some examples that have happened in the last 2 years?

No point argueing over ROG and Sextons performances for Ireland when its obvious that the problem is the Irish gameplan, of you can call it a gameplan.

The question nobody has considered yet:

If Madigan was picked at 10 would Irelands tactics have him performing badly too?

red_stag wrote:The question nobody has considered yet:

If Madigan was picked at 10 would Irelands tactics have him performing badly too?

He would be told to kick the leather off the ball too.