Ian Madigan

First topic message reminder :

I've just been watching the highlights of Leinster v Treviso again and decided to start this thread discussing the young outhalf from Leinster,his prospects at club and international level.

Madigan has proven himself far quicker than I would have thought possible,he benefitted from an injury to Matt Berquist but has grabbed his opportunity with both hands and has now started regularly in the Rabo and has got decent gametime in the HC.

This season he has a try scoring record that a winger would be proud of and his passing is phenomenal,he can fire quick flat passes over nearly half the width of the pitch which allied to his running game is a deadly combination,defend narrow and he can put his wingers into space,defend wide and he can find a gap himself.

The only question marks I can see is over his kicking game,from hand he seems to have a good boot but time will tell how effective he is.He is 4th choice kicker at Leinster so needs more experience of kicking under big game conditions but from the little I've seen it shouldn' be a problem.

Anyway what are others opinions of him and how far do you think he could go in the game?

Agreed we could debate endlessly who to select but I think we all agree lets see some sign of emerging talent being given a chance - this is the game for that.

Exactly. Not the Six Nations out in Paris or the 2nd test against New Zealand. Its the reason we play the Barbarians or take on Samoa in November and why we have Ireland A matches.

red_stag wrote:Some fans get absolutely livid when Kidney picks 13 players they want and 2 they don't like.

I think Ireland's results for the last 2 and a half years have made a lot of fans very frustrated, and they are liable to completely overreact to selections they disagree with. All his 2009 credit has been used up, and most fans aren't willing to cut him any more slack or give him much more time.

All thats fair enough Feckless. The team isn't performing, they have terrible results by and large since 2010 and Kidney must accept the flack for that.

However I am seeing many fans go over the top losing the plot because literally there are 2 selections out of 23 that they don't like.

I saw someone on another thread say they weren't going to watch France v Ireland because Kidney picked Darcy over McFadden but most of rest of team was ok except for O'Callaghan!!

Thats all it ever is - one or two players not getting picked and fans going apeshite over it. If its the results that bother them let them criticise the results.

I think its mostly just down to tactics.

Speaking of experimentation in the barbarians game, here is a backrow combination I would love to see:

6) Ruddock
7) Ryan
8) O'Mahony

Has a lovely balance to it I think. Ruddock is a hard worker, and a dynamic ball carrier. Ryan will tackle all day long, and hopefully improve in terms of his breakdown skills. O'Mahony to add the aggression, leadership, and all around brilliance.

Rory, is that Dom Ryan? I thought he was having a poor enough season compared to last year?

O'Mahony, Henry, Jennings, O'Brien and Wallace are all ahead of him for the 7 shirt.

He isn't playing well and is 6th choice in his position.

red_stag wrote:I think its mostly just down to tactics.

Your tactics are defined by your selection.

I don't give a feck who gets selected as long as we:

a) perform
b) win and/or
c) show signs of improvement and progression from game to game

red_stag wrote:Rory, is that Dom Ryan? I thought he was having a poor enough season compared to last year?

O'Mahony, Henry, Jennings, O'Brien and Wallace are all ahead of him for the 7 shirt.

He isn't playing well and is 6th choice in his position.

To be fair Stag, he only played 4 or 5 times. I don't think he should tour this year though, there are too many ahead of him in the pecking order and we still don't know if he'll settle at 7 or become a blindside.

red_stag wrote:Rory, is that Dom Ryan? I thought he was having a poor enough season compared to last year?

O'Mahony, Henry, Jennings, O'Brien and Wallace are all ahead of him for the 7 shirt.

He isn't playing well and is 6th choice in his position.

He has been injured basically the entire season. All of those players listed are definitely ahead of him now yes, but many Leinster fans wish for him to replace Jennings as their openside (though I think O'Brien should stay there). So I am keen to see how he develops, and like I said I think that combination would have a lovely balance to it. Very much an experimentation though.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:I think its mostly just down to tactics.

Your tactics are defined by your selection.

I don't give a feck who gets selected as long as we:

a) perform
b) win and/or
c) show signs of improvement and progression from game to game

Here here. Right now we aren't. If we send out a completley new 15 and win I dont give a shoite.

Lets just get a clear gameplan. I think thats a good place to start.

Am I alone in not really rating Ruddock very highly at all?

No, I have been underwhelmed by him at times, though I feel he sometimes does show what he can offer. I remember he and SOB playing Ulster last year and ripping us apart (SOB was at 8). I think Ruddock is definitely a 6 for starters. He is a very dynamic and powerful sort of player, a bit like Harinordoquy. He also has a great work-rate. Though he does seem to perform best with SOB, so maybe SOB makes him look better than he is? I don't really know.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Am I alone in not really rating Ruddock very highly at all?

Over hyped last year under hyped this year. He'll find his way, he's only 21 and has bags of talent.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Am I alone in not really rating Ruddock very highly at all?

I agree to an extent he needs to play a fuill 80 minutes week in week out. He goes missing too much for my liking.

The lad was foolish in turning down Munster where he would have the chance at really cementing a Heineken Cup spot.

Though is Ruddock, OBrien and Heaslip the way forward for Leinster? Personally I wouldn't be convinced but maybe Schmidt told him otherwise.

As I said before, I feel Ruddock performs brilliantly alongside SOB. I think that back row is a very good combination. Ruddock does need to add a bit of bulk however, IMO. I think Ireland are favouring the big and mobile back row players, who are very well balanced individually, and can perform multiple roles.

Ruddock doesn’t need to add bulk, he’s bloody huge as it is. he needs to improve his carrying though, he looks like he gets bashed back in the tackle because he’s lighter, it’s because he carries like Toner used to. Far too high. Toner was able to improve it and he’s older than Ruddock, so there’s no reason Rhys can’t work on it too.

Bulk up? I would say that he nearly is big enough already. To me it is a technique issue. The guy is a talent but natural talent only gets you so far. Needs to adjust his technique in contact.

He is 103kg. Pretty small for his height/position.

He looks bleedin huge to me. I said I don't rate him highly. But he's only 21 I think. His form could rocket upwards in the next couple of years if he's coached well and trains hard. Look at the difference between Madigan last year and this year. Same with Toner. It can take time for a younger player to settle into pro rugby before he really finds his feet and it just clicks.

Oh and that doesn't mean I disagree on your point about technique - it takes technique and aggression.

Feckless your right. Sometimes these things take time. Donnacha Ryan was 27 when he broken into the Munster team. James Coughlan was 29. Jonathan Sexton was 24 getting his break at Leinster same with Fergus McFadden. Jerry Flannery was around 26 when he got into the Munster side.

There is plenty of time.

He looks big I agree, but 103kg is definitely small for a 6 foot 3 flanker. Compared to the likes of Ferris who is about 112kg. I thought he looked bigger last season as well.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Am I alone in not really rating Ruddock very highly at all?

No but he's been starting to win me round a bit this season.

At the time I thought he was crazy to turn down Munster but in retrospect I think it was a good move, he is only an injury away from getting into the Leinster team/23. He is getting some of the best training available and learning from some very good players and excellent coaches.

This is going to sound a bit bent of me but it's something I've been thinking for a while and has just come up here so.....

I think the Munster style of play right now is somewhat old fashioned. A bit like Ireland (but not to the same extent) they haven't moved on from 2009 and the tactics that could be used then.

Munster are magic to watch cos they can scrape things out of the ashes to get a win in the last minute due to that freak of a man O'Gara and some real strong leaders in the pack but they don't have that modern open flowing game like Leinster, Tolouse etc.

I think their attack is very archaic is what I am trying to say.

I am glad Ruddock isn't going to be playing like that because it would definitely have an affect on his style of play if he was starting games and being told to bash it up the middle, pick and go, smash things etc. There are fewer clever lines, sweet offloading, backs and forwards interlinking, dummy runners etc. I'm not saying that Munster players do this all the time but they do do it more than a lot of other teams.

What ever the reasons behind this are for Munster playing like this more than other teams, I am glad Ruddock is still going to be part of an open, free flowing, attacking, modern game and his instincts will remain to be 'move the ball', 'create space', 'exploit space' etc.

For the same reason I am glad Bowe is not going to Munster.

I don't mean it as a snub at Munster because they hold their values better than almost all others but I am glad Ruddock and Bowe didn't have to buy into that style of game plan that Munster play to more of an extent than most other teams.

I still think Munster are a great team, but think they could be a much greater one if they embraced the new style of attacking rugby.

Ruddock, SOB and Heaslip all play the type of game that suits Leinster. McLaughlin is a more defensive minded player, and he probably would have suited the move to Munster the most. I prefer Ruddock to McLaughlin if I'm honest, and hope to see the back row combination I mentioned more often.

I think Kev has a great workrate is a good tackler and hits rucks and is pretty good at challenging for lineouts.

Pete I think Musnters fans and management would agree.

They have bought in two new centres so that should lead to big change.

Yeah, that is why I feel he would probably suit the Munster game-plan more. He is in the same mould as Dan Lydiate I feel. Ruddock is a more dynamic player, and offers a lot going forward. Suits the Leinster game-plan more. IMO of course, I am sure many Leinster fans would disagree.

I'm glad people haven't reacted badly to that comment yet.

I think a lot of it is down to players like Hayes, horan, POC, DOC, DeVilliers, Coughlan (not to the same extent) who when the ball is passed to them they just think 'must go forward and do my best to win contact'. They have no appreciation of space or rather much less appreciation of it.

Fellas like Warwick, Jones, Wallace, Tipoki, Howlett, Sherry, Ryan, Earls (although his awareness is still quite poor IMO) seem different though they look for that space and are able to identify it it's just some of the others aren't able to react to it the same way

I'd say that weight stat for Ruddock is on the low side, you could add up to 10kg onto that from looking at the fella. He is definitely heavier than Heaslip and wasn't too far off of Hines last season. If anything I'd have thought he would be the better second row conversion prospect to McL but the risk was that he would get too heavy to be lifting as a primary lineout option.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm glad people haven't reacted badly to that comment yet.

I think a lot of it is down to players like Hayes, horan, POC, DOC, DeVilliers, Coughlan (not to the same extent) who when the ball is passed to them they just think 'must go forward and do my best to win contact'. They have no appreciation of space or rather much less appreciation of it.

Fellas like Warwick, Jones, Wallace, Tipoki, Howlett, Sherry, Ryan, Earls (although his awareness is still quite poor IMO) seem different though they look for that space and are able to identify it it's just some of the others aren't able to react to it the same way

Planting the idea in the defense that the first group are going to pick-n-go at close quarters gave the second list you mentioned the change to look for that space. It's all about a healthy mix (earn the right to wide). But the problem arises when the defense can tell what the option is going to be purely based on who is catching the ball.

The thing that I found earlier this year with Munster and a lot last year is they would make a linebreak let's say two forwards would secure ball and a third would arrive a second later. Instead of getting into the backs or joining the ruck to secure ball the forward at times picked and went into the only area of the field where the defence was set; the fringe. Countless times they do this when the backs line up ready to exploit a 5 on 2 or something!

That is the kind of situation that differentiates Munster players, for instance Rory Best, Ferris, Wannernburg, Strauss, Hines, Heaslip, Jennings, and many more would have seen the overlap.

Pete I think you have as is usually the case when people talk of Munster oversimplified the analysis. There is some truth in what you say and it seems a lot of teams this year seem to think they have Munster sussed (a bit like you) but then quite cant figure out how they got beat. In the early games I would agree with you to an extent but then with the injuries and people playing together as a unit for the first time the backline looked a bit one dimensional but I think that has come together in the last couple of games.

Meh believe whatever you want, I have had this arguement to many times over the last 12 years to get involved.

Yet you can't help but get involved in any Munster/ROG/Earls related debate there is

I just think in relation to other teams at the same level their attack is very archaic, very few dummy runners or exceptionally clever lines, not great support play or knowledge of all players of when to go wide and when to stay tight but that's just my opinion....and the reason I'm glad Bowe and Ruddock aren't going there

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I just think in relation to other teams at the same level their attack is very archaic, very few dummy runners or exceptionally clever lines, not great support play or knowledge of all players of when to go wide and when to stay tight but that's just my opinion....and the reason I'm glad Bowe and Ruddock aren't going there

I dont think we need them to be honest and I think we will do just fine...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yet you can't help but get involved in any Munster/ROG/Earls related debate there is

Thats just for fun...but given the dearth of Munster supporters on here someone needs to (Red_Stag doesnt count).

DOD wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I just think in relation to other teams at the same level their attack is very archaic, very few dummy runners or exceptionally clever lines, not great support play or knowledge of all players of when to go wide and when to stay tight but that's just my opinion....and the reason I'm glad Bowe and Ruddock aren't going there

I dont think we need them to be honest and I think we will do just fine...

I think you will do just fine too but maybe not as well as you'd like.
I hope you guys do well and am glad you have Downey and Lualala too.

I actually think Earls would suit playing for Leinster more than for Munster. He would probably get more recognition and get more opportunities in attack. I'm not trying to wind up anyone here btw this is just my opinion. Anyone agree/disagree?

I think you're sticking to an old stereotype of Munster rugby. Off the top of my head they scored 51 points in their last Heineken Cup match, they scored 42 away to Brive last year, they scored 37 away to Perpignan the year before, they scored 43 at home to Ospreys the year before that. All in big European matches. They can attack well. They don't attack as well as Leinster. But nobody else in Europe bar Toulouse does either.

Did you see Earls and Jones attacking play last year? Neither seemed to be stunted by playing in Munster. If you don't want Irish youngsters taking part in negative rugby, then it's the Irish test team they should be staying away from.

I did see them, and along with Howlett, they were immense. And I hope to see Munster continue to produce that kind of attacking flair. I'm not sticking to any old stereotypes, but as pete said Munster would generally prefer to play a tighter game than a wider expansive one. Obviously the matches you mention are the exceptions, but in the tighter games, Earls I feel is not at home. I just feel Earls would suit a game controlled by Sexton/Madigan more than ROG.

Agree about Ireland, unfortunately.

Also the likes of Downey will not help matters if Munster look to play a more expansive game. The sooner Hanrahan gets drafted into the main squad, the better.

Munster could do with a new attack coach.

As for Madigan, if he keeps improving he could become Irelands version of Steven Larkham. One of the best international 10's ever even though he didn't take kicks.

Seriously wouldnt worry about Madigan taking kicks his time will come.

Think McFadden is actually the best place kicker at leinster and wouldnt mind him taking over from Sexton for club and country (i know mcfadden isnt a cert but ideally i would like him at starting at 12). Wonder how Sexton would take it though, does it dent his confidence or is it a weight off his shoulders?

Lads I have to say Im REALLY alarmed at all the talk about how frail Sextons confidence is.

I hear he drops the head if he misses a few kicks. I hear that his confidence gets shattered the way Kidney handles him. I hear about how he can't deal with the pressure of a rival #10 and that it could dent his confidence.

Is the man weak mentally?

red_stag wrote:Lads I have to say Im REALLY alarmed at all the talk about how frail Sextons confidence is.

I hear he drops the head if he misses a few kicks. I hear that his confidence gets shattered the way Kidney handles him. I hear about how he can't deal with the pressure of a rival #10 and that it could dent his confidence.

Is the man weak mentally?

Its an interesting question. He looks confident for Leinster. He gets most of the pressure kicks in the big games.

I think he needs a run in the team. He is probably trying too hard to compete with ROG and that could be putting him off.

If that is actually true Profitus and he can't deal with having ROG challenging him then I don't rate his mental strenght whatsoever.

ROG and Humphreys had a great battle with both of them by and large being quite successful and Madigan has shown no qualms about Sextons presence at Leinster.

If Madigan continues to perform will Sexton react the same way at Leinster?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

DOD wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I just think in relation to other teams at the same level their attack is very archaic, very few dummy runners or exceptionally clever lines, not great support play or knowledge of all players of when to go wide and when to stay tight but that's just my opinion....and the reason I'm glad Bowe and Ruddock aren't going there

I dont think we need them to be honest and I think we will do just fine...

I think you will do just fine too but maybe not as well as you'd like.
I hope you guys do well and am glad you have Downey and Lualala too.

We might cause a shock or two this year anything now is a bonus in terms of our progression, I like laulala but not Downey. We gave a few players under the radar coming through and we have two future stars in zebo and pom.

I have to say I find it interesting when the Ulster crowd start going on about expansive rugby..a bit rich from the high veldt bishbosh brigade

red_stag wrote:If that is actually true Profitus and he can't deal with having ROG challenging him then I don't rate his mental strenght whatsoever.

ROG and Humphreys had a great battle with both of them by and large being quite successful and Madigan has shown no qualms about Sextons presence at Leinster.

If Madigan continues to perform will Sexton react the same way at Leinster?

He was sh1te at Leinster until he stopped trying to play like Dr Phil.

Perhaps something similar with rog/tainton. Because I don't think mental strength is an issue. Other people are fussing over the problem. Not sexto. Other people are questioning his mental strength, not me.

People sometimes try to make sense of a situation from the outside and draw the wrong conclusions.