Ian Madigan

First topic message reminder :

I've just been watching the highlights of Leinster v Treviso again and decided to start this thread discussing the young outhalf from Leinster,his prospects at club and international level.

Madigan has proven himself far quicker than I would have thought possible,he benefitted from an injury to Matt Berquist but has grabbed his opportunity with both hands and has now started regularly in the Rabo and has got decent gametime in the HC.

This season he has a try scoring record that a winger would be proud of and his passing is phenomenal,he can fire quick flat passes over nearly half the width of the pitch which allied to his running game is a deadly combination,defend narrow and he can put his wingers into space,defend wide and he can find a gap himself.

The only question marks I can see is over his kicking game,from hand he seems to have a good boot but time will tell how effective he is.He is 4th choice kicker at Leinster so needs more experience of kicking under big game conditions but from the little I've seen it shouldn' be a problem.

Anyway what are others opinions of him and how far do you think he could go in the game?

I don't agree with you at all rodders to be honest, there is of course a different level of physicality and power at the top level but there is a reason tackling low and hard is coached from the start. I don't believe a player is ever coached to tackle high on these big runners, unless it is necessary. Coaching a player to tackle a huge runner high, is just silly, simply because he will run through you.

roddersm wrote:Rory I understand perfectly what you are saying. I just think you are over simplifying here.

You can't apply the same principals of tackling and defence at schoolboy, junior or amateur rugby, even at a good standard, to this level.

I get what you're saying here but in the WC QF all we heard was how the Welsh nullified our backrow by tackling them low,it's better to tackle low and risk the offload than tackle high and risk getting bounced.There is a lot more that can go wrong in an offload (poor pass,bad hands from the recipient etc.) plus if you tackle him low behind the ainline then it's very hard for his support to clean out the ruck for quick ball and even if they do then the backs find it harder to realign when they have to run backwards to do it.

Yes there is a time and place for low tackling. The Welsh used it specificly target because the likes of O'Brien like to use the leg drive in the tackle.

It depends on the scenario whether it is the most effective method but at this level it is different and against a lot of players a leg tackle will not be sufficient.

For example a leg tackle against Sonny Bill Williams will be as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

Most off the best tacklers go fairly high like BOD and certainly if you are shooting then you have to take man and ball.

Depends how hard you hit him. If you go high on SBW he is just going to push you aside. Hit him low and hard and he won't have time to react. Hit him high he has just taken out a defender and still has options.

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:

Mickado wrote:Stag, that further reinforces the opinion that there is either no game plan at international level, or players are being asked to rigidly stick to a game plan that doesn’t work.

How can you infer that Mickado. If anything it reinforces the point that the players are not capable of thinking on their feet...oh hang on you cant take that inference because God forbid that would mean criticising the players....

I'm inferring that because there's evidence to support that players can do it for their provinces. If they can all do it for their province (regardless of what province it might be) and they can't do it for Ireland then are you saying that our players are not good enough for international standard because the only option left is that the coaching tactics are hampering our players.

I think there is evidence to support that our players are not that great. There is also evidence to support that the provinces are playing against weaker teams or more that the Provinces because of their tragetting of certain NIQ players in specific positions and also because there are a lot of internationals playing in their team (Leinster for example) are quite stronger than a lot of the opposition teams in both the Pro12 and HC. The step up seems to be a problem for them. I am not saying they arent good enough but I think the assumption by some supporters that its the same level is inherently incorrect. You have decided to ignore that evidence and go for the coaching one (it is a lot easier to do that), I think its a mixture of issues myself.

DOD wrote:

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:

Mickado wrote:Stag, that further reinforces the opinion that there is either no game plan at international level, or players are being asked to rigidly stick to a game plan that doesn’t work.

How can you infer that Mickado. If anything it reinforces the point that the players are not capable of thinking on their feet...oh hang on you cant take that inference because God forbid that would mean criticising the players....

I'm inferring that because there's evidence to support that players can do it for their provinces. If they can all do it for their province (regardless of what province it might be) and they can't do it for Ireland then are you saying that our players are not good enough for international standard because the only option left is that the coaching tactics are hampering our players.

I think there is evidence to support that our players are not that great. There is also evidence to support that the provinces are playing against weaker teams or more that the Provinces because of their tragetting of certain NIQ players in specific positions and also because there are a lot of internationals playing in their team (Leinster for example) are quite stronger than a lot of the opposition teams in both the Pro12 and HC. The step up seems to be a problem for them. I am not saying they arent good enough but I think the assumption by some supporters that its the same level is inherently incorrect. You have decided to ignore that evidence and go for the coaching one (it is a lot easier to do that), I think its a mixture of issues myself.

A good point well made.

Yea fair play actually DOD (pains me to agree with a cork man).

DOD wrote:

I think there is evidence to support that our players are not that great. There is also evidence to support that the provinces are playing against weaker teams or more that the Provinces because of their tragetting of certain NIQ players in specific positions and also because there are a lot of internationals playing in their team (Leinster for example) are quite stronger than a lot of the opposition teams in both the Pro12 and HC. The step up seems to be a problem for them. I am not saying they arent good enough but I think the assumption by some supporters that its the same level is inherently incorrect. You have decided to ignore that evidence and go for the coaching one (it is a lot easier to do that), I think its a mixture of issues myself.

I could agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that occasionally we pull out a performance that refutes that completely.England last 6 nations and Oz in the WC being prime examples,unlike say Scotland who can't ever hope to outclass teams for 80 minutes our players have shown they can do it.

The Welsh players have not shown any exceptional level of talent in these competition yet somehow step up when it comes to international level but only against Ireland they still fail time and again against Oz,France,S.A. so that leads me to conclude that it's Ireland making them look good.

Don't get me wrong Wales are a decent side but if you gave the pick of the Welsh team I'd take 6 players max for Ireland and that's pushing it.

I have to say I disagree with DOD actually. We do play weaker clubs, who we should beat well and do beat well. But we also bump into the likes of Toulouse and Clermont, who are better than the weaker test teams, like Scotland and Italy. Teams Ireland have also struggled against under Kidney.

Poitrenaud said that the 2011 semi final between Leinster and Toulouse was played at a higher intensity and speed than anything he's played bar the RWC latter rounds. I'm not making that up, or twisting his words. He really said it. And Leinster played with confidence and purpose and won a match that was a higher intensity than the 6 Nations, according to the players that played in it. Horgan has also said that the level of the Heineken Cup latter rounds is similar to test rugby. Leinster thrive in these rounds. There is no leap in technical requirements needed for test rugby.

Leinster and Munster are the masters of Heineken Cup rugby, whether they're playing poor teams or the very best teams. I simply don't accept that the likes of Ferris, O'Brien or Earls aren't up to test level. It's nonsense, and it's shielding the fact that the actual gameplan has been incoherent/missing and the tactics and use of the bench have been inept at times. Technically, we have a squad of top class players in most positions. Far better than what EOS had. And that's not entirely based on HEC games either. They've beaten Australia at a RWC, they've beaten South Africa in a test match, they've won a Grand Slam. The players are good enough to be far more successful than they are.

There's loads of evidence to suggest that we have a squad that can mix it with the big three southern teams. But we can't even challenge for the 6 Nations anymore. We nearly lost to Italy and lost at home to Scotland. We have a squad that should be trying to get into the top 4 in the rankings and be top seed at the next world cup. But we're 8th and the only reason that isn't under threat is because Italy and Scotland can't buy a win against anyone else of note.

There's been countless poor performances now. No coherent gameplan. Confused style. Error riddled play. It's clearly a coaching problem. It couldn't be clearer. Kidney is just about the nicest, most humble, most gracious man I've ever seen in sport. So I understand that people don't like to criticize him. But while the depth of quality players at his disposal are getting better, the teams performances are getting worse. He's completely failed to adapt to attacking rugby and has now retreated to his trusty defensive style, which is redundant.

Double post

A point made by Donal Lenihen regarding the Welsh game which I think sums it up entirely. He said that in the games against Oz and England the players played with a frenzy and willingness to put their bodies on the line. They were "up" for those games.

At the end of the day Rugby is still about how much pain you are willing to go through to win a game. I think the players have questions to answer in relation to the games against Wales for example. I think that they expected to win the WC gameand got caught out. Then for the second game they probably thought they just needed to execute on certain things but again didnt show that commitment from previous games.

Sure the coach(s) have something to answer for here but I believe they thought the same thing as you regarding Wales. Always remember the sum of the parts are better than the individual. For Wales this is certainly the case.

Poitrenaud said that the 2011 semi final between Leinster and Toulouse

Lots of players make those claims...

Anyhow you say Ferris etc are surely world class. Well they are certainly of international standard (high). But you are missing the point. They look good if not great week in week out in the Pro12/HC because of the weaker teams they play against, in addition to the strength of their own team.

As I said the players have questions to answer as to why they can only get "up" for the big games...

You can believe what you want (dont we all) but a bit of realism helps at times.

A WC quarter final is a big game,they were up for the pool game against Italy the week before that.I don't think the players professionalism is the problem but we're never going to agree and there's no way either of us can make a definitive argument either way.

On the point of Ferris though, put it this way: He doesn't actually play the type of game he plays for Ulster. We don't know if he couldn't barrel through international defences because he doesn't play like that for Ireland. He even played for the Lions the way he did for Ulster and looked immense. If he played the type of game he played for Ulster and came off second best, then I would listen. For now though there must be a reason he plays a different type of game. A more subtle type of game.

That also applies for the likes of Sexton and SOB. There must be a reason they play an entirely different type of game from the one they play for the provinces. And it isn't because they are playing stronger opposition, because they don't even try to play their type of game. With all of this in mind, where else can you look but the coaching? I highly doubt that international rugby causes all of these players to lose their attacking instinct.

It seems after the welsh match at the world cup that Ferris and SOB are told not to run with the ball so much, and to play a more defensive role. Which would be the totally wrong tactic, and a complete misunderstanding of what really was the problem in that welsh game. I still don't think Kidney has got it like.

Some great points here but I suppose it depends if you look a the glass as half empty ot half full.

Are we overperforming at domestic level or underperforming at International level?

Possibly its a bit of both but the margins between winning and losing are extremely small.

For example if Barnes hadn't of penalised Ferris and O'Gara hadn't of kicked those drop goals against Saints and Castres then things would appear differently?

just flicked in here..... is this the Ian Madigan thread?

It lasted about three posts before Sexton/ROG were mentioned and it kicked off from there

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It seems after the welsh match at the world cup that Ferris and SOB are told not to run with the ball so much, and to play a more defensive role. Which would be the totally wrong tactic, and a complete misunderstanding of what really was the problem in that welsh game. I still don't think Kidney has got it like.

How could you possibly know that?

Read it over again. "It seems.." is the very first thing I said. Obviously I don't know that. It is quite clear I am saying that if that was the case, then Kidney hasn't learnt his lesson at all.

I dont agree. I think they had no choice but to play more defensively. You cant possibly infer that DK instructed them that way.

How on earth could they have no choice but to play defensively?? That is just stupid. Even on the backfoot the likes of Parisse is always trying to attack the opposition line and inject some pace/creativity. How can you not say they were instructed to play a defensive game? Some teams try to employ those tactics. Kidney said after the game that Ireland should have "killed" Wales. Those are his tactics. Attacking rugby and creativity don't seem to compute with Mr Kidney.

Also you said the other day how it is time for Sexton to move on and give someone else a go, he hasn't done his job. Well that is exactly how I feel about Kidney.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How on earth could they have no choice but to play defensively?? That is just stupid. Even on the backfoot the likes of Parisse is always trying to attack the opposition line and inject some pace/creativity. How can you not say they were instructed to play a defensive game? Some teams try to employ those tactics. Kidney said after the game that Ireland should have "killed" Wales. Those are his tactics. Attacking rugby and creativity don't seem to compute with Mr Kidney.

now now....

Explain please. I see you have bolded some of the things I have said but I have no idea why. Unless you are just agreeing with me that his tactics to wear down Wales and "aim for the jugular" are stupid tactics. In which case I agree entirely.

You shouldnt be calling people names or there ideas..but when you get bereft of any other arguement you do start that...tut tut.

Just to note repeating yourself continuously (RE the tackle discussion, SOB as 7, POM etc) doesnt generally prove the argument. Just a little suggestion to try something different.

Ferris and SOB were used as our primary ball carriers in the RWC quarter final. The problem was that was our only attacking plan. A point which is was widely made in the media after the game. The Welsh knew that and fully concentrated on stopping them, which they did extremely well. Ferris and SOB are brilliant carriers. But that is way to simple a plan, and was read easily.

In the latest 6 Nations game the general tactics of kicking the ball away were the same. But one change was that whenever Ferris or SOB got the ball they passed it nearly every time instead of carrying. It went from one extreme of carrying nearly every time they go it, to passing nearly every time they got it. If that's an example of Kidney learning from past experience then I'm not very impressed.

You have to pose lots of threats simultaneously. Look how we're arguing over tackling the Welsh high or low. Both options pose us different problems. Look at Leinster when Sexton gets it. He might pass, or dummy and run. If he passes to, say McFadden, and loops around there two threats to the defence. McFadden can pass it back out to Sexton at pace. But if a defender moves to cover Sexton then McFadden can step inside and go himself. If Sexton or McFadden is tackled there's support runners right on the shoulder waiting for the offload. Even for Leinsters rehearsed set plays, the idea is to generate multiple options for the player who gets the ball and coach him to quickly read it and chose the best one.

And DOD, to a certain extent I accept your point that all this is easier when playing the likes of Bath. Banahan is just a big lump. Wales have big lumps with top class rugby abilities who are very well coached. It's harder. But Leinster are doing it to much better teams than Bath too. And the fact that Bath are rubbish, doesn't change the basic premise that you need to play what's in front of you and pose multiple threats to a modern defence to break it down. The reason Ireland are not great at this is clearly because of coaching in my opinion.

DOD wrote:You shouldnt be calling people names or there ideas..but when you get bereft of any other arguement you do start that...tut tut.

Just to note repeating yourself continuously (RE the tackle discussion, SOB as 7, POM etc) doesnt generally prove the argument. Just a little suggestion to try something different.

What the flip are you talking about?

I haven't called anyone anything, and you really are quite the hypocrite since you called me a tool a month or so ago for disagreeing with you.

DOD wrote:Poitrenaud said that the 2011 semi final between Leinster and Toulouse

Lots of players make those claims...

Anyhow you say Ferris etc are surely world class. Well they are certainly of international standard (high). But you are missing the point. They look good if not great week in week out in the Pro12/HC because of the weaker teams they play against, in addition to the strength of their own team.

As I said the players have questions to answer as to why they can only get "up" for the big games...

You can believe what you want (dont we all) but a bit of realism helps at times.

But these weaker teams they play are made up of the same players that are beating us at International level

"In the latest 6 Nations game the general tactics of kicking the ball away were the same. But one change was that whenever Ferris or SOB got the ball they passed it nearly every time instead of carrying. It went from one extreme of carrying nearly every time they go it, to passing nearly every time they got it. If that's an example of Kidney learning from past experience then I'm not very impressed."

+1

This is exactly my point.

It looks like Berquist might be going to Biarritz. Good news for Madigan if true.

Who's Madigan?

He has already signed for biarritz.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Who's Madigan?

Some Leinster 10 that will make a name for himself when he signs for Munster

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:He has already signed for biarritz.

Have you got a source Jen?

http://www.rugbyunit.com/2012/02/transferts-biarritz-a-trouve-son-10/

Fair play to ya.

So (for my own sanity i need to write this down) our NIQ players at the start of the season were:

Sykes - Gone
Berquist - Gone
VDM - contracted till May 2012
White - contracted till May 2012
Nacewa - contracted till May 2013
Strauss - will be IQ next season

You'd have to wonder if McGrath and Hagan are being handed starts this weekend because they'll be backup to Healy and Ross next year.

Could Leinster be the first province with no NIQ??

To me thats the grail. Thats what we should be aiming for. Almost complete self suffincy like NZ have.

red_stag wrote:Could Leinster be the first province with no NIQ??

To me thats the grail. Thats what we should be aiming for. Almost complete self suffincy like NZ have.

`

We could. But I’d imagine our long term singing at lock will be a “project player”, so that’s a 3 year contract. Plus I’m doing a whip round in the RDS tonight to pay for Isa’s 11 year contract extension. So we might be the first, but it won’t be for a while yet.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:just flicked in here..... is this the Ian Madigan thread?

Who's Ian Madgan? .......

roddersm wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:just flicked in here..... is this the Ian Madigan thread?

Who's Ian Madgan? .......

He's the fella who owns all those pubs around Dublin right. Alright pubs, but nothing great.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

roddersm wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:just flicked in here..... is this the Ian Madigan thread?

Who's Ian Madgan? .......

He's the fella who owns all those pubs around Dublin right. Alright pubs, but nothing great.

He is one of those Madigans thought isn’t he?

Mickado wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

roddersm wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:just flicked in here..... is this the Ian Madigan thread?

Who's Ian Madgan? .......

He's the fella who owns all those pubs around Dublin right. Alright pubs, but nothing great.

He is one of those Madigans thought isn’t he?

don't tell me a joke has stumbled on reality

I didn’t know it was a joke. But I think he has something to do with the Madigans that run the bar in the RDS anyway. Not sure if they also own pubs around Dublin but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Mickado wrote:I didn’t know it was a joke. But I think he has something to do with the Madigans that run the bar in the RDS anyway. Not sure if they also own pubs around Dublin but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Yep, same group. They own the Horseshow House among others.

http://www.madigan.ie/