Ian Madigan

First topic message reminder :

I've just been watching the highlights of Leinster v Treviso again and decided to start this thread discussing the young outhalf from Leinster,his prospects at club and international level.

Madigan has proven himself far quicker than I would have thought possible,he benefitted from an injury to Matt Berquist but has grabbed his opportunity with both hands and has now started regularly in the Rabo and has got decent gametime in the HC.

This season he has a try scoring record that a winger would be proud of and his passing is phenomenal,he can fire quick flat passes over nearly half the width of the pitch which allied to his running game is a deadly combination,defend narrow and he can put his wingers into space,defend wide and he can find a gap himself.

The only question marks I can see is over his kicking game,from hand he seems to have a good boot but time will tell how effective he is.He is 4th choice kicker at Leinster so needs more experience of kicking under big game conditions but from the little I've seen it shouldn' be a problem.

Anyway what are others opinions of him and how far do you think he could go in the game?

Thats my feeling on it personally too Profitius.

profitius wrote:No point argueing over ROG and Sextons performances for Ireland when its obvious that the problem is the Irish gameplan, of you can call it a gameplan.

That's my point,I've o interest in RoG v Sexton anymore because I'm convinced it makes no difference at this stage.

Ireland have been poor for 3 years now no mater who plays,there are two ways to look at it.Either the players aren't good enough or the management aren't using them properly,I think it's the latter bu we won't know for sure until Kidney leaves and someone else gets a chance.

ASLS,

I still think we are 1 good attack coach away from resolving it.

Kidney messed it up with Gaffneys appointment and I suspect is making sure he gets the best person available.

It is no secret that many of our players perform brilliantly for their provinces, play their own type of game, then when they play with Ireland their natural game just disintegrates. Funnily enough it suits the likes of ROG. I bet it would also suit someone like your man Downey, but it certainly won't be suiting someone like Sexton or Madigan. It is very clear the team is being coached to play a conservative, defensive game and, as Kidney says, "kill the game". And look how well that works when you have 6 foot 4 backs running at you.

People say how Sexton is a confidence player, similar to how Sin has always told us to be patient with Earls as he is a confidence player, so if he is told to play conservatively (like the rest of the team) he isn't going to be playing his own game now is he? It is nothing to do with "oh he should take things into his own hands". How can he if the rest of the team aren't on the same wavelength?

I have considered it stag. If Madigan was playing for Ireland he'd do the same as ROG did in two games against Wales and Sexton did in the last one. He'd kick straight to the big Welsh backs, handing them the initiative and hoping the Irish defence will keep them out. It wouldn't keep them out, under such sustained pressure and we'd lose a fourth time in a row.

I don't think Kidney can take Ireland any further. And where we are isn't good enough. I think that giving him a 2 year contract before the RWC was a mistake, given the evidence since 2010 that Ireland have failed to adapt successfully to the change in tackle interpretations. We're just gonna continue in the same general malaise, with mostly poor and confused performances, selections and use of the bench. Poor results and excuses.

A very talented squad is being wasted.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It is no secret that many of our players perform brilliantly for their provinces, play their own type of game, then when they play with Ireland their natural game just disintegrates. Funnily enough it suits the likes of ROG. I bet it would also suit someone like your man Downey, but it certainly won't be suiting someone like Sexton or Madigan. It is very clear the team is being coached to play a conservative, defensive game and, as Kidney says, "kill the game". And look how well that works when you have 6 foot 4 backs running at you.

People say how Sexton is a confidence player, similar to how Sin has always told us to be patient with Earls as he is a confidence player, so if he is told to play conservatively (like the rest of the team) he isn't going to be playing his own game now is he? It is nothing to do with "oh he should take things into his own hands". How can he if the rest of the team aren't on the same wavelength?

Good post Rory.

red_stag wrote:ASLS,

I still think we are 1 good attack coach away from resolving it.

Kidney messed it up with Gaffneys appointment and I suspect is making sure he gets the best person available.

I'll concede that point if we get a decent attack coach in and Kiss concentrates on the defence then there's a chance things will turn round.At least we have a good cushion in the world rankings so we're unlikely to drop to 3rd seeds.

It's just frustrating waiting for it to happen since I'm certain the players are good enough.

I know what you mean ASLS,

But I think its right idea. If Ireland beat NZ in ANY test and have a good autumn all will be forgiven.

He is far better off to bring in a top backs coach (if he can) rather than the first ones available.

Another frustrating thing is that our defence IS very very good, despite the mishaps in midfield which need sorted big time. Our midfield I think is something that should have been sorted ages ago though, well before now. It is like the irish coaches thought BOD was going to last forever. But after we fix our midfield, and our defensive line holds there, teams are going to struggle a lot more (including Wales, if you notice this was literally their tactic of scoring against us).

However my real point is if we can play the game suited to basically 95 percent of our players, and inject some pace and creativity on the ball, and threaten the opposition line, then we are going to be a very very good team. The attacking flair of Leinster, with the defensive quality of Munster. The usual token Ulstermen. I think that is why everyone gets so frustrated about Ireland. We are capable of so much more, and we are restricting ourselves.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The attacking flair of Leinster, with the defensive quality of Munster. The usual token Ulstermen. I think that is why everyone gets so frustrated about Ireland. We are capable of so much more, and we are restricting ourselves.

IMO this post (and not criticising or anything) is a MASSIVE reason why we do badly. The idea - "lets just all bring our club form into the national team". It is a bit of everything and is not a concrete system.

What we need to do is forget about the provinces and have an Irish way to play. Forget whats the clubs are doing. If some elements are similar to Leinster/Ulster/Munster so be it but it should be an Irish tactic.

I would actually go as extreme as having each and every player having to hand over their provincial (or club for Bowe) jersey to Irish management at the start of their training camp and it being handed back to them when they are leaving. It would be a ceremonial thing about putting your province behind you and embracing IRELAND as a team.

Its like how Munster can be doing badly in the Pro 12 but it doesn't bother them for HEC and similarly why the Pro 12 form isn't a factor in the HEC. They are independent of each other. We need to put provinical rugby behind us when the 6 Nations or any Irish tour starts.

I said we should have the attacking flair of Leinster, with the solidity in defence of Munster. I don't mean anything about taking certain players from the provinces, and I hardly mean throw it into a pot, mix it up and then see what you get. We already play the defensive game that Munster play, and all anyone is asking is that we play with the same attacking game that Leinster play. Just because you are great in attack doesn't mean you are poor in defence. We can defend like a rock, win back the ball, and counter. That is how we have to play. We have the players capable.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Thomond wrote:I like Sexton, I think some people on here are just protecting him. He was bad against Wales, he was. The tactics may have inhibited him a bit but he needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck. Or at least notice how much space there is behind the defence. If there is that much space behind the defence, you put it in behind them. I played hooker and I noticed that.

The problem I have with that is this.In the WC QF RoG did the exact same thing,long aimless kicks no kicking for lineouts,chips over the top or grubber kicks.Can you explain why two of the best outhalves in Europe would both make he same mistakes over and over again if it wasn't an instruction from the coaches.

The 2 outhalfs are underpressure from the opposition so they kick poorly (though a lot of the time not kicking for a lineout is tactical).

Just interesting kicking from hand stats from various teams:

Wales (31) v Australia (35) world cup (Wales 31 kicks from hand, Australia 35 kicks from hand). Australia won.

Ireland (14) v Aus world cup (27)
Ireland (25) v Italy (20 kicks)
Ireland (30) v Wales (34) (world cup loss).
Ireland (32) v Wales (22) wales won.

Looks like Robbie Deans is very fond of a kicking game.

Players need to be able to think on their feet and not relying on a 'plan'. I'll give you an example of following a plan too tightly that didn't work out.
In the Magners Final last year, Reddan attempted to run the ball 5 metres from his own line (score was 12-9 to Munster). That was madness - he was sticking rigidly to the leinster gameplan of running the ball. Munster turned over the ball and scored a (penalty) try. Now, if Leinster had gone for a lineout (clearing their lines) they would have had a much better chance of launching an attack with a drop goal for a draw or running in a try.

Now, I'd imagine that someone has told Sexton & Madigan & Rog that if the ball is in your own 22 and the opposition is all over your, do kick the leather out of it.

I think the problem is that we've created a monster in Ireland. The past decade has brought unprecedented success and certain players have become bigger than the game itself, namely BOD, ROG and POC but several others of that generation too.

The pressure to keep winning has led to a short sighted approach and the IRFU and national coaches have focussed too much on retaining our established stars and keeping them fit and happy and have done so to the detriment of the side and development of the next generation of players.

For example even in his twilight years ROG was able to throw the IRFU into a headspin by hinting he was going to retire at the RWC.

Before the competition Kidney spoke about the 13 jersey as if it belongs to BOD.

DOC and D'arcy are nigh on undroppable.

None of this is a healthy atmosphere for player development and its no wonder younger players struggle to establish themselves when their older teammates are treated like demi gods by the coaches, fans and media. The deficiencies of the younger players are discussed endlessly whereas people are seemingly oblivious to those of the more established players.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Thomond wrote:I like Sexton, I think some people on here are just protecting him. He was bad against Wales, he was. The tactics may have inhibited him a bit but he needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck. Or at least notice how much space there is behind the defence. If there is that much space behind the defence, you put it in behind them. I played hooker and I noticed that.

The problem I have with that is this.In the WC QF RoG did the exact same thing,long aimless kicks no kicking for lineouts,chips over the top or grubber kicks.Can you explain why two of the best outhalves in Europe would both make he same mistakes over and over again if it wasn't an instruction from the coaches.

The 2 outhalfs are underpressure from the opposition so they kick poorly (though a lot of the time not kicking for a lineout is tactical).

Just interesting kicking from hand stats from various teams:

Wales (31) v Australia (35) world cup (Wales 31 kicks from hand, Australia 35 kicks from hand). Australia won.

Ireland (14) v Aus world cup (27)
Ireland (25) v Italy (20 kicks)
Ireland (30) v Wales (34) (world cup loss).
Ireland (32) v Wales (22) wales won.

Looks like Robbie Deans is very fond of a kicking game.

Players need to be able to think on their feet and not relying on a 'plan'. I'll give you an example of following a plan too tightly that didn't work out.
In the Magners Final last year, Reddan attempted to run the ball 5 metres from his own line (score was 12-9 to Munster). That was madness - he was sticking rigidly to the leinster gameplan of running the ball. Munster turned over the ball and scored a (penalty) try. Now, if Leinster had gone for a lineout (clearing their lines) they would have had a much better chance of launching an attack with a drop goal for a draw or running in a try.

Now, I'd imagine that someone has told Sexton & Madigan & Rog that if the ball is in your own 22 and the opposition is all over your, do kick the leather out of it.

The Aussies like to put a few kicks in behind the defense and kick when the opportunity arises. Ireland just kick it into the air. Every team has to do some bit of kicking but the type of kicking and when to kick are the key as well as execution of course.

Sin E, IMO Ireland did not kick intelligently against Wales. I hope it was a once off match but a dreadful set of tactics.

That applies to the entire match btw. Sexton AND ROG. Both did the same thing.

ROG actually tried to run a lot from his own half and put us in all sorts of trouble in the RWC QF.

Thats what I thought Rodders. I expected him to do exactly what he did against Scarlets in the HEC (who also have big backs like North, Davies, Lamont etc). He chipped in over the top, kicked into the corners, and used his forwards to carry the ball when space was available.

He did not of this against Wales.

In fairness to both Sexton and ROG we went through a lot of phases in both games but really struggled to get over the gainline.

Both should be criticised for some of the quality of the kicks but not the volume of kicks per se in terms of the past two games.

Wales have exceptionaly good kickes with very long kicking ranges and for 3 games running we've lost the kicking duel.

red_stag wrote:Sin E, IMO Ireland did not kick intelligently against Wales. I hope it was a once off match but a dreadful set of tactics.

Give some credit to Wales for putting them under such pressure to kick poorly. Wales are up quick in their faces (and offside a lot of the time). Plans go out the window when you have George North & Co. running at you in your own 22 - all you want to do is get the ball away.

Sin é wrote:Give some credit to Wales for putting them under such pressure to kick poorly. Wales are up quick in their faces (and offside a lot of the time). Plans go out the window when you have George North & Co. running at you in your own 22 - all you want to do is get the ball away.

+ 1

It's been a while since I agreed with you sin!

Very true SinE but you saw how ROG dealt with things in Parc y Scarlets. He was the single biggest reason we won that match.

red_stag wrote:Very true SinE but you saw how ROG dealt with things in Parc y Scarlets. He was the single biggest reason we won that match.

Liam Williams is no George North and Munster had Will Chambers & Mafi who is a hard nut and can put in some hits.

Scarlets pack is nothing like the Munster pack and Zebo & Hurley are big men.

And George North is no superman. Scotland put in some big, big hits on him. He was noticeably hurt a few times.

In fairness to Sexton in the game against Wales, Ireland were missing our two best kicking players in BOD and Earls (Luke is good too), so all the kicking was more or less left to Sexton & Kearney. The threat of an Earls' or BOD little dink over the defence would have kept the Welsh a bit more honest (and one of them back in their own half most of the time).

Earls is a kicking player? First I've heard of that. Not saying you are wrong Sin, but is he a good kicker?

And I definitely believe we missed some of Earl's brilliance in that Wales match.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And George North is no superman. Scotland put in some big, big hits on him. He was noticeably hurt a few times.

No problem dealing with him on his own - but a combination of Phillips, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts & North are fairly unstoppable.

They are definitely not unstoppable Sin. If you play like we did, then yes, it is unstoppable. But we needed some up front tacklers, and some grunt, especially in the midfield. We didn't have that. I actually would have loved to see one of Spence or Cave in that game. Cave handled Tuilagi wonderfully against Leicester. Spence is a monstrous tackler and I have no doubts that he would not hold back.

SOB tackled each of those players fine. Made the most tackles, none missed. But he had to cover the midfield. That was the problem. They are far from unstoppable, unless you give them the ball and let them run it straight back phase after phase. And when did we see that happen I wonder?

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And George North is no superman. Scotland put in some big, big hits on him. He was noticeably hurt a few times.

No problem dealing with him on his own - but a combination of Phillips, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts & North are fairly unstoppable.

+1 again sin .

Add Faletau, Ryan Jones, Bradley Davies etc. in there and you have an endless list of big carriers. Very difficult to stop and it wears you down defending on the back foot. That is why eventually we were stretched out wide and forced to kicking the ball away.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And George North is no superman. Scotland put in some big, big hits on him. He was noticeably hurt a few times.

No problem dealing with him on his own - but a combination of Phillips, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts & North are fairly unstoppable.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Earls is a kicking player? First I've heard of that. Not saying you are wrong Sin, but is he a good kicker?

He is excellent. You might rememeber a kick and chase from Ireland's 22 to England's 22 when he was fullback against England in the last season's 6Ns. He has great pace for that kind of a game.

This shows a bit of how skilfull he is (first season for Munster in the Magners).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdkuVKAm15c

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And George North is no superman. Scotland put in some big, big hits on him. He was noticeably hurt a few times.

No problem dealing with him on his own - but a combination of Phillips, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts & North are fairly unstoppable.

+1 again sin .

Add Faletau, Ryan Jones, Bradley Davies etc. in there and you have an endless list of big carriers. Very difficult to stop and it wears you down defending on the back foot. That is why eventually we were stretched out wide and forced to kicking the ball away.

The problem was we kicked to them from the very start of the match. It was unforced and illogical. Wales just kept getting possession and territory from the kicking contest by using Halfpenny to kick it back twice the distance the Irish kicked it to them. It was playing to Wales' strengths and really dumb, idiotic rugby from Ireland.

I would have put James Downey at 12 for the Welsh match just to nullify a bit of their advantage and lets face it, its not like Ireland wanted to play an attractive offloading game either. Horses for courses.

profitius wrote:
The problem was we kicked to them from the very start of the match.

Not the match that I watched. We started very well but after Davies made that break on about 5 min from the lineout we were under the cosh for most of the 1st half, rarely getting out of our half. It was a miracle we were ahead at half time.

We actually had a much better 2nd half but were 2nd best in that half too. Apart from the lineout, restarts and breakdown we were marginally inferior in every aspect but the main difference was how many yards Wales big carriers were able to make compared to us.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Earls is a kicking player? First I've heard of that. Not saying you are wrong Sin, but is he a good kicker?

He is excellent. You might rememeber a kick and chase from Ireland's 22 to England's 22 when he was fullback against England in the last season's 6Ns. He has great pace for that kind of a game.

This shows a bit of how skilfull he is (first season for Munster in the Magners).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdkuVKAm15c

I've seen "that try" Sin don't you worry

After seeing that, I am always reminded of Cullen. Earls for 15!

Faletau was ineffective at carrying the ball forward IMO. Roberts also didn't do an awful lot. Davies made some great outside breaks because he had space that he shouldn't have been given. North was the only real carrier who caused us real problems. He ran it up the midfield and offloaded to Davies.

We have huge carriers too but we don't use them. Ferris, now why do we not use him the way we do for Ulster? Ferris, SOB and Heaslip, three players who can carry the ball just as good as anybody else in the world. We have one of the biggest backrows in world rugby. Our backs are more nimble than big, but you cannot say the likes of Trimble, Bowe, Murray etc are not strong. They are very strong.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:We have huge carriers too but we don't use them.

We do use them but if you are up against a bigger side with more carriers then you are at a disadvantage as we were against Wales. Its easier to target 3 or 4 big carriers than 6 or 7. Also you don't want all your back row carrying as they need to be rucking and winning the ball too.

We are simply outgunned against Wales right now and we need to pick a side and tactics to overcome that.Its not just about size but skill and tactical nouse too. They are simply better than us in a number of key areas and we are getting sucked into their gameplan.

We have an entire pack of big ball carriers though. We do need someone like Spence in midfield I feel however. A big 13 would really suit us. I think France are going to show us exactly what should have been done with Wales. Plus I don't think anyone is as good a ball carrier right now as Picamoles.

Sin é wrote:but a combination of Phillips, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts & North are fairly unstoppable.

That's codswallop. If they were unstoppable they wouldn't have lost so many games in the last year against other teams and would be higher up the rankings. They've beaten us three times because we played into their hands three times with dumb, inept tactics.

Our lineout was soooo superior. We could have turned the match into a lineout competition if we wanted to. Just keep kicking for touch when under pressure. Take their lineout apart and demoralize their pack. It's called playing to your strengths.

Australia have smaller backs too. And they have a weaker pack than us in my opinion. But they're waaaaay smarter. They've beaten Wales easily twice this year.

Wales are not unstoppable. That's a ridiculous statement.

Very good example there FR. Australia had no troubles with this "unstoppable" back-line that Wales have. And their biggest player is Digby Ioane probably? He isn't huge, but he is a very aggressive runner.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Australia have smaller backs too. And they have a weaker pack than us in my opinion. But they're waaaaay smarter. They've beaten Wales easily twice this year.

No they didn't they beat Wales by a marginal scoreline in two dead rubber games.

Wales battered SA and France in the RWC and were extremely unlucky to lose those games. The sooner we stop underestimating Wales the sooner we'll beat them.

More than likely they will their 3rd GS in 8 seasons in a few weeks, which is more than we've ever won. But for Warburton getting sent off they'd have been in the RWC final for sure.

They've raised the bar whilst we are living in the past.

Everyone is overestimating Wales I feel though. Calling them unstoppable just bugs me.

Australia beat them. France beat them. England beat them last 6 nations. The only team Wales have been beating of any note so far is Ireland, who have been poor for ages now. They "battered" SA and still lost. So clearly their big runners weren't enough against a team with even bigger runners. The game they play is a simple one. The tactics we have employed against them are rubbish ones. It is that simple.

The example of Reddan running it from his 22 is nothing to do with Leinster's "rigid attacking play" which in itself is an oxymoron, attacking play means heads up rugby, play what's on. It wasn't on, he played it. That was a brain fart.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Everyone is overestimating Wales I feel though. Calling them unstoppable just bugs me.

They are not unstoppable but they are the strongest side in the 6N right now in my opinion and have better attacking options than us currently.

We are not far off them but right now they are better than us.

I'm not saying they're not good. They're really good. I think our squad is really good too. They are of a similar quality. We probably have more depth actually. The difference between the teams is that Wales have a good game plan, they're confident in it and in themselves and they're playing with enthusiasm and implementing Gatlands orders brilliantly. And Gatlands orders are simply to play to the teams strengths and always take the initiative. Ireland are doing none of those things. Ireland are passively handing the initiative to every team they play, and trying to defend their way to victory. Our players are capable of way more than that.

I barely even notice Ferris playing for Ireland. How is that possible when he's stood out so much in the Heineken Cup and for the Lions with match winning, eye catching performances? Are you saying it's because Ferris just isn't good enough when he has to face Lydiate or Ryan Jones? I'm saying the Irish management isn't using Ferris well. They're not using any of the resources at their disposal well. Wales are getting the most out of the talent available. Our team is way less than the sum of its parts should be.

Feckless I agree with all of that but the bottom line is the Wales management are putting out a better squad of 22 with a better gameplan and superior conditioning than we are with (in my opinion) inferior overall resources.

Ferris could have the same role for Ireland that Denton is having for Scotland right now. He sometimes carries Ulster on his back, and he thrives on the physical game. We see a subtle Ferris play for Ireland however. I don't like that. I want to see him hit rucks like a train, barrel through defences and put in those monstrous hits he is known for. Atm it is as if Ireland want him to play like Lydiate, when that isn't his type of game.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Sin é wrote:but a combination of Phillips, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts & North are fairly unstoppable.

That's codswallop. If they were unstoppable they wouldn't have lost so many games in the last year against other teams and would be higher up the rankings. They've beaten us three times because we played into their hands three times with dumb, inept tactics.

Our lineout was soooo superior. We could have turned the match into a lineout competition if we wanted to. Just keep kicking for touch when under pressure. Take their lineout apart and demoralize their pack. It's called playing to your strengths.

Australia have smaller backs too. And they have a weaker pack than us in my opinion. But they're waaaaay smarter. They've beaten Wales easily twice this year.

Wales are not unstoppable. That's a ridiculous statement.

Wales have really only come together during the world cup.

Beat us (with Priestland at flyhalf)
Nearly beat France without Cuthbert and down their captain for most of the match (and hook at flyhalf - I don't rate him in that position).
Similar players missing against Aus tralia at world cup.

Against Australia for both games, Warburton was missing and Aus had a full team.

One thing about Wales is that they get an awful lot of injuries. Ireland seem to be unlucky as they get them usually at full strength.

Nearly beat Australia (missing a few through injury - Cutbert & carding

Since when was Cuthbert so highly rated??