Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

First topic message reminder :

Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

It can be intimidating
http://folksong.org.nz/kapa_o_pango/new_haka2.jpg

It can also be funny
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Travel/Pix/pictures/2009/2/18/1234970115986/Haka-Rugby-haka-France-vs-001.jpg

Some players love it
http://www.rugbydump.com/media/posts/richard-cokerill-haka-rd.jpg

Some teams disrespect it
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3036/3052636403_13e7fc1d1c_z.jpg?zz=1


Discuss

Not so. Quite happy to have a discussion. Quite happy to listen. A bit tired and jet lagged at the moment, and that's probably why it's a strong comment.

I think you've missed the point, which is that the WRFU have to take some responsability for the 2006 incident. That's not to say the AB's couldn't have acted differently.

english warrior wrote:Black canelon- 'I'm sitting in my house getting a lecture from a welshman on Maori culture, don't take it personally if i choose to ignore it'


Great, so if you don't want outside people to comment on it, then do the damn thing in PRIVATE, or within the borders of NZ, and certainly don't do it in staiums with 10's of thousands present and millions more watching at home. If the AB's bring it in to the public arena and get precious about it because people want to comment, then Bad luck!!

It's a funny thing, but in the 6 Nations when a coach or a pundit sets up a challenge to the opposition, we're always told that he's done the opposition's team talk for them, e.g. Jiffy says Wales may smash England next Saturday, which means, according to many, that the England pack will be highly motivated to come out and prove him very wrong.

But the All Blacks' haka, which is also a challenge, is apparently an unfair advantage to them, rather than a motivating factor for their opponents. Come off it, some teams are half-beaten by New Zealand's reputation before the haka even starts. Those that aren't are likely to get beaten by a better team, not a prance-about by the blokes in the black jerseys.

Fiji Samoa and Tongs all have their own 'haka'.
The only reason theirs are not targeted as unfair, where responses are not the ongoing concern of a certain few NH fans, where every effort in gaining every little advantage is not bothered with is because of the relative winning percentage of the four teams.

Do their hakas intimidate? Not from what ive read here.

Want to diffuse the supposed threat of the haka? Diffuse its power? Simple.

Beat the ABs.

Otherwise stop blowing in the wind over red herrings for your inabilities to do so. Get a grip and move on.

Taylorman wrote:Fiji Samoa and Tongs all have their own 'haka'.
The only reason theirs are not targeted as unfair, where responses are not the ongoing concern of a certain few NH fans, where every effort in gaining every little advantage is not bothered with is because of the relative winning percentage of the four teams.

Do their hakas intimidate? Not from what ive read here.

Want to diffuse the supposed threat of the haka? Diffuse its power? Simple.

Beat the ABs.

Otherwise stop blowing in the wind over red herrings for your inabilities to do so. Get a grip and move on.

Good post.

Agreed, good post taylorman

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well you can't very well let an opposing team piddle infront of a Haka, billy... it's a family show folks So there has to be etiquette of sorts so that no fists start flying before the game starts.

Surely though, you would'nt piddle on the ground you were about to play on.... imagine being tackled in that area

Jerry Collins piddled on the playing area after the Haka once, didn't he.....although he wasn't exactly piddling in response to the haka because he'd just done it himself (the haka that is, then he did the piddle)

I am sure he piddled on behalf of the opposition who felt the all Blacks had an unfair advantage.

Either that or he was marking his territory.

Taylorman wrote:Otherwise stop blowing in the wind over red herrings

Sorry, fish just doesn't agree with me

Do Red Herrings bring on wind? Thanks for the warning.

biltongbek wrote:I am sure he piddled on behalf of the opposition who felt the all Blacks had an unfair advantage.

Either that or he was marking his territory.

Drawing a line in the piddle? Now them's fighting words!

SecretFly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I am sure he piddled on behalf of the opposition who felt the all Blacks had an unfair advantage.

Either that or he was marking his territory.

Drawing a line in the piddle? Now them's fighting words!

Well he is a tough guy. He isn't going to write his wife's name in the sand.

Not saying this isn't up for discussion its the same comments that surface every now and then. It will keep coming up- usually after another thumping or even close loss where 'the haka made the difference' and the same drums will be beating to end it again.

Frankly, the more energy you give it the more you instill this sense of aura around it. In NZ its still a sign of respect for the opposition but I suppose you need to see it that way before you can understand it.

Its the 'giving' of respect to the opposition as worthy foes that is intended so if you're not up to receiving it as such, perhaps you're not worthy enough to receiving it, and perhaps that's reflected in the score? One perspective anyway...

Certainly the Boks and Ozzies don't have as much issue with it perhaps because they're more culturally attuned to such things this end of the world because some views here really have no idea?

If our schoolboys can see it as a mark of respect and rise to the challenge why can't 'big men'...

I just see it as a missed opportunity to be motivated..

Taylorman wrote: In NZ its still a sign of respect for the opposition but I suppose you need to see it that way before you can understand it.

Its the 'giving' of respect to the opposition as worthy foes that is intended so if you're not up to receiving it as such, perhaps you're not worthy enough to receiving it, and perhaps that's reflected in the score? One perspective anyway...

Certainly the Boks and Ozzies don't have as much issue with it perhaps because they're more culturally attuned to such things this end of the world because some views here really have no idea?

If our schoolboys can see it as a mark of respect and rise to the challenge why can't 'big men'...

I just see it as a missed opportunity to be motivated..

Taylorman, I dont even think it necessitates you to justify it.

I often find the objection people have to the Haka is not really about the Haka, it is really about the fact that you get to do something they can't do, or do not possess of.

I can tell you there is no event that has a bigger impact on our school boys and young academy guys when they get the opportunity to face a Haka.

Certainly the Boks and Ozzies don't have as much issue with it perhaps because they're more culturally attuned to such things this end of the world because some views here really have no idea?

Like Campese wondering off and thowing the ball around?

I really think thats the best way to deal with it ignore it

Yes that one always comes up. Like his game and style Campo had 'attitude extraordinaire' and unfortunately the IRB have gotten rid of reactions like that. Copying it would be just as farcical and not really in the manner Campo intended, which was to ignore it and just get on with the game rather than as a genuine mark of disrespect. That's fine too.

Some things are just the way they are...

I think the continuing debate over the Haka is a combination of bitterness over defeat mixed with a sense that NZ are overly precious about their rugby team. If NZRU picked up the tab for a couple of years when the IRB fined other unions, they would show other fans that they are not precious about it, don't agree with the restrictions, and that it really is the IRB independently making the silly decisions to fine teams. The fines tend to be quite token (5k to the FRU and 3k to the ARU are the only ones I can think of) and compared to the money NZ make from the commercial rights of the All Black brand which includes the Haka, it would be a drop in the bucket. It would be a nice gesture and would take the wind out of much of the argument, or at least take that part of the argument away.

True, but then you have the situation where NZ picks up part of the tab that teams suddenly feel the need to create the fines more often.

I don't think its as much an issue of NZ feeling 'precious' as much as opponents feeling disadvantaged, something they place on themselves...but then I would say that...

You don't think it might just be possible that part of the "response" is in attempting to create controversy around the Haka? Clever media manipulation to wind up the home fans to be "outraged" at the performance, and respond in a parochial and vocal way that might lift the home team? rather than perhaps curiosity or quiet respectful acknowledgement? Or even hopefully unsettle oe divert NZ attention into trivia rather than the matter of winning the match?

Is the haka unfair? - no

Am I the only one who finds it a bit... well... dull? No disrespect, I understand all the cultural signifcance and importance etc. just at the grounds it sort of takes up a bit of time - the same as the prime minister of Ireland shaking hands with everyone, or some bearded welsh guy matching up the pitch singing Bread of Heaven. Get on with it!!! If they want to do it, do all this before or during the warm up.

I class it as the same as pumping out loud music when the teams run on to the field or when someone scores a try. <- i hate that.

What about anthems? well... I don't see the point in them either, but I suppose they give everyone a good sing a long and a sense of togetherness and a good solid introduction to a game.

Now I have to watch and listen to some out of sync music/video/flame throwers. I want to see and hear the crowd and not get a fake tan and tinitus.

Just play the bloomin match!

Taylorman wrote:True, but then you have the situation where NZ picks up part of the tab that teams suddenly feel the need to create the fines more often.

I don't think its as much an issue of NZ feeling 'precious' as much as opponents feeling disadvantaged, something they place on themselves...but then I would say that...

I dont think you would have to do it for long though. A couple of times at the going rate of 5k and you can point out forever more that the problem is not you, its the IRB. It's the perception that you're in some way protected (e.g. no fines for Ali Williams, but a fine for France) that gives some legitimacy to people's gripes. You could take yourselves out of it quickly and cheaply.

Obviously anything that is a benefit to one side over another before a match has to be unfair. Would it be fair if say only one anthem were played or only one team allowed to warm up on the pitch?

These are not equanimous and neither is allowing one side to psyche themselves up while the other side is forced to watch passively. If both sides have a haka then fine let them both perform it, but if only one side is performing it then the other team should be able to do whatever they want without any censure from the IRB.

The IRB are using the haka as a branding tool for rugby and that is why they are so precious about any response that might sully the spectacle for the cameras. That is unfair in itself to all those other teams who are not allowed a time slot for their own expression of culture, as it hampers their marketing opportunities.

It's obviously unfair both on and off the pitch, but so what?

its fair- however haka or national anthem- teh allblacks shouldnt get both,

or and any challenge should be allowed

Aukster I doubt whether the Haka only serves to psyche only the all Blacks.

No more unfair than going to France and expecting everyone to speak English while you're there. In France, you expect it. With the All Blacks, you expect it. Its just there, like its always been.

If you see it as unfair, then it always will be.

I really have always liked the HAKA, it really is a fantastic thing to watch and a scary thing to stand over from.

I know i am going to upset Gibbo here, but i still dont see the need in Irelands Call to be played.

haha even being welsh i love this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN_ggEN4WVg&feature=related
good on them i say

gowales wrote:haha being welsh i love this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN_ggEN4WVg&feature=related
good on them i say

Unfortunately, anyone remember the score?

If they didn't do that it wouldn't have made a dfference whats your point?

There's such a thing as courtesy and as an Englishman I was ashamed of my countries parochial and arrogant behaviour on that day.

Would you think it was "good on 'em" if they'd defiled the anthems too? or shouted out in the middle of a minutes silence?

loved the french arrow last year as well

The difference being the haka is purely for commercial and entertainment purposes. You can do whatever you please during it for all i care. I know im bored of it after the umpteen times i've seen it

In your opinion. I don't think that is the case for New Zealander's. From what I've come to believe they take the Haka very seriously.

It might not have relevance in your culture, but I like to think I am at least big enough to see that it is important to theirs. What if we invited Asadonia to play rugby at Twickenham and they thought that GTSQ was just a commercial thing for entertainment value and whistled and jeered through it and then sung their national anthem through a minutes silence because they were bored of it having observed a minutes silence a few times before?

It doesn't take a lot of effort to open your eyes (metaphorically) and realise that not every place has the same values as ourselves, sometimes is nice to be respectful instead of trying to wrap everything in a union flag....lest people accuse us of imperialism and arrogance (as they do).

eirebilly wrote:I really have always liked the HAKA, it really is a fantastic thing to watch and a scary thing to stand over from.

I know i am going to upset Gibbo here, but i still dont see the need in Irelands Call to be played.

Does Gibbo like Ireland's Call?

Amongst some rugby followers here it seems the Haka is more powerful than they admit. Those of us who like it and feel like we're about to see a real game of rugby when we hear it, aren't offended by it, don't think it gives the ALL Blacks an edge and don't care about the commerciality of it (all rugby is commercial - bums on seats is money going somewhere)

But those who pretend it bores them - try to out-wit it, out-fox it, sing over it, belittle it, protest against it. If it doesn't matter then let it be...if it unsettles, then there's probably a good reason why the ABs keep doing it. A war dance in a modern stadium with a beer in your hand? Relax and enjoy the spectacle - work is on Monday, now there's boredom.

i dont think anyone is offended by it, some are bemused, some find it funny, some like what it represents, some respect it, some challenge it!

challenge it all day long from my point of view.

Gowales
It probably does get a bit boring every time you see the haka especially if it is quickly followed by 80 minutes of the All blacks beating Wales.....for the umpteenth time....

biltongbek wrote:Aukster I doubt whether the Haka only serves to psyche only the all Blacks.

Of course it serves to psyche up both teams, but like a schoolboy in
front of a ranting headmaster, there is no doubt as to who is in control
and no suggestion to anyone watching that it is a meeting of equals. Do
you think it's equitable that one side gets to dictate the words,
choreography and timing, while the other get to... er... listen to it
and take their punishment?

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Aukster I doubt whether the Haka only serves to psyche only the all Blacks.

Of course it serves to psyche up both teams, but like a schoolboy in
front of a ranting headmaster, there is no doubt as to who is in control
and no suggestion to anyone watching that it is a meeting of equals. Do
you think it's equitable that one side gets to dictate the words,
choreography and timing, while the other get to... er... listen to it
and take their punishment?

oh dear lol- you like kiwi rugby- just a wee bit- am i right?

AFAIK there are other teams do the Haka as well as the All Blacks.

I think challenging the haka is great.
I think having a staring match at the end is childish.
I think what the French did was brilliant.
I think getting right up into each others faces is a bit too much.

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Aukster I doubt whether the Haka only serves to psyche only the all Blacks.

Of course it serves to psyche up both teams, but like a schoolboy in
front of a ranting headmaster, there is no doubt as to who is in control
and no suggestion to anyone watching that it is a meeting of equals. Do
you think it's equitable that one side gets to dictate the words,
choreography and timing, while the other get to... er... listen to it
and take their punishment?

Why not The Great Aukster. It´s just preparing them for what's going to happen on the field later.

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Aukster I doubt whether the Haka only serves to psyche only the all Blacks.

Of course it serves to psyche up both teams, but like a schoolboy in
front of a ranting headmaster, there is no doubt as to who is in control
and no suggestion to anyone watching that it is a meeting of equals. Do
you think it's equitable that one side gets to dictate the words,
choreography and timing, while the other get to... er... listen to it
and take their punishment?

Yeah, you see, I don't think about it that way.


It is all about attitde. You as a team decide how the Haka wil affect you. You can either think of it as a power display by the all Blacks and allow it to intimidate you. Some like Campese decided to be disrespectful to it(I am sure the all Blacks really got riled up when that happened). Or you decide that it is a challenge that you accept and will run and tackle the toffee out of them.

I prefer the latter, maybe it is a South African mentality, but we don't take kindly to challenges and we don't like to be told we can't.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I really have always liked the HAKA, it really is a fantastic thing to watch and a scary thing to stand over from.

I know i am going to upset Gibbo here, but i still dont see the need in Irelands Call to be played.

Does Gibbo like Ireland's Call?

Pretty sure he does

Having stood over from a Haka once, i can tell you that it is very imposing but at the same time it gets your blood pumping.

I am of the belief that it pumps both teams up to be honest.

Also, as for the marketing factor. Yes it it is big for marketing the game. Most people from non rugby playing countries may not know rugby but they know the Haka. Thats a good thing in my books.

Prior to this years RWC final the media were making much of France's fine sporting gesture of allowing NZ to wear their traditional All Black kit regardless of the outcome of the coin toss required when there is a clash in the RWC.

The media were asking both captains whether they thought this could have some impact on the outcome of the game.

Both captains said something along the lines of if you start believing that external things can influence the outcome then you've already lost control of the game, the only things that you should worry about are the things you can control between the kick off and the final whistle.

Surely the same must apply to Hakas, anthems, responses by teams or spectators or otherwise.

The exception is that year that my ex-wife made me take the flag off the TV before the final started because she said it was obsessive and creepy. We lost and I can't help but continue to blame her. Sorry all.

To me the two jerseys shouldn't clash mitey. Nike darkened the jersey in the 2007 World Cup and to my mind there needs to be regulations stopping the jersey manufacturers changing the traditions willy nilly simply to shift more jerseys as everyone wants the latest one unless you´re a Black Caps supporter and beige really is the colour to go for.

Kiwireddevil wrote:
That's enough of the cheap insults folks.

Don't know about you Kiwi...but I buy my insults in the high street! You can't be seen throwing insults that don't have a distinctive brand name. Mine are Nike insults. Top quality.

SecretFly wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:
That's enough of the cheap insults folks.

Don't know about you Kiwi...but I buy my insults in the high street! You can't be seen throwing insults that don't have a distinctive brand name. Mine are Nike insults. Top quality.

But we all know Nike insults are made by little children SecretFly.