Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

First topic message reminder :

Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

It can be intimidating
http://folksong.org.nz/kapa_o_pango/new_haka2.jpg

It can also be funny
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Travel/Pix/pictures/2009/2/18/1234970115986/Haka-Rugby-haka-France-vs-001.jpg

Some players love it
http://www.rugbydump.com/media/posts/richard-cokerill-haka-rd.jpg

Some teams disrespect it
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3036/3052636403_13e7fc1d1c_z.jpg?zz=1


Discuss

eirebilly wrote:I really have always liked the HAKA, it really is a fantastic thing to watch and a scary thing to stand over from.

I know i am going to upset Gibbo here, but i still dont see the need in Irelands Call to be played.

Do you have seriously have to ask that question ....

biltongbek wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Aukster I doubt whether the Haka only serves to psyche only the all Blacks.

Of course it serves to psyche up both teams, but like a schoolboy in
front of a ranting headmaster, there is no doubt as to who is in control
and no suggestion to anyone watching that it is a meeting of equals. Do
you think it's equitable that one side gets to dictate the words,
choreography and timing, while the other get to... er... listen to it
and take their punishment?

Yeah, you see, I don't think about it that way.


It is all about attitde. You as a team decide how the Haka wil affect you. You can either think of it as a power display by the all Blacks and allow it to intimidate you. Some like Campese decided to be disrespectful to it(I am sure the all Blacks really got riled up when that happened). Or you decide that it is a challenge that you accept and will run and tackle the toffee out of them.

I prefer the latter, maybe it is a South African mentality, but we don't take kindly to challenges and we don't like to be told we can't.

With respect Biltongbek, the attitude the Haka is received has nothing to do with the question in the thread. Do the Boks really need the motivation of the Haka to get up for a game against the All Blacks or would they be just as psyched up for a game against Australia?

It is patently unfair that a team performing the Haka has 100% control over the (critical) five minutes prior to kickoff when all the rest of the time both pre and post kick-off is shared equally between the teams.

My insults(although used very sparingly) are usually extremely diplomatic and understated. Unless of course you are a plank.

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Aukster I doubt whether the Haka only serves to psyche only the all Blacks.

Of course it serves to psyche up both teams, but like a schoolboy in
front of a ranting headmaster, there is no doubt as to who is in control
and no suggestion to anyone watching that it is a meeting of equals. Do
you think it's equitable that one side gets to dictate the words,
choreography and timing, while the other get to... er... listen to it
and take their punishment?

Yeah, you see, I don't think about it that way.


It is all about attitde. You as a team decide how the Haka wil affect you. You can either think of it as a power display by the all Blacks and allow it to intimidate you. Some like Campese decided to be disrespectful to it(I am sure the all Blacks really got riled up when that happened). Or you decide that it is a challenge that you accept and will run and tackle the toffee out of them.

I prefer the latter, maybe it is a South African mentality, but we don't take kindly to challenges and we don't like to be told we can't.

With respect Biltongbek, the attitude the Haka is received has nothing to do with the question in the thread. Do the Boks really need the motivation of the Haka to get up for a game against the All Blacks or would they be just as psyched up for a game against Australia?

It is patently unfair that a team performing the Haka has 100% control over the (critical) five minutes prior to kickoff when all the rest of the time both pre and post kick-off is shared equally between the teams.

Aukster of course they don't need it. but when you understand the rivalry between our two nations you might understand why the Haka is so special to us.

In fact if I could inluence the NZRU, I would request them to keep it only for us.

Biltong - I understand that perfectly.

In fact it is fairly clear that the title of the thread is at odds with the title of the poll.

"Is the Haka fair on the opposition?" - obviously not
"Should we still have it?" - On balance yes.

Do All Blacks create more of a bankable game for any opposition it plays? - Yes.

Do opposition unions benefit financially from All Black games? - Yes.

Does a world audience expect to see a Haka performed when All Blacks play? - Yes.

I don't think 'fairness' comes into the equation when Union bosses salivate on the income potential of an ABs game.

They are a brand, whether we like it or not - some might say The Rugby Brand - the brand that sells rugby to countries and populations that don't yet watch or play the game but know the name All Blacks.

So I think its a fair pact. They sell our sport to non-rugby spectators and we stand for a bit as they do the Haka.

SecretFly wrote:Do All Blacks create more of a bankable game for any opposition it plays? - Yes.

Do opposition unions benefit financially from All Black games? - Yes.

Does a world audience expect to see a Haka performed when All Blacks play? - Yes.

I don't think 'fairness' comes into the equation when Union bosses salivate on the income potential of an ABs game.

They are a brand, whether we like it or not - some might say The Rugby Brand - the brand that sells rugby to countries and populations that don't yet watch or play the game but know the name All Blacks.

So I think its a fair pact. They sell our sport to non-rugby spectators and we stand for a bit as they do the Haka.

ermm - not sure. i mean dont get me wrong i am happy with the haka and the all blacks are the best rugby playing team, however the haka isnt a rugby tradition- its a mauri tradition- they are re writing the history of the game in a way!

its all abit egotostical.

if the haka sells our game to foriegn parts- then great- but were is the evidence of this. It sounds like a typical NZRU employee banging on about how they should be compensated all the time because there league runs such massive losses

If world rugby was only about SH countries then world cups wouldnt happen- i mean jeasus none will bid for any ever again(at this rate). NZ whinge about it costing them money- however the economic benefit from tourism during that period made it very worthwhile, whatever they say about running losses WC years. They need to get there own house in order first!

NZ are a massive part of rugby- but no more than the NH teams or the real history of the sport.

let em have the haka - by all means- but the haka and the all blacks are not bigger than the game it self!

I'm am 100% certain there are no egotostical mauri traditions anywhere near rugby.

miteyironpaw wrote:I'm am 100% certain there are no egotostical mauri traditions anywhere near rugby.

i have to disagree

mystiroakey wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:I'm am 100% certain there are no egotostical mauri traditions anywhere near rugby.

i have to disagree

I bet you £5.

lets make it 10

mystiroakey wrote:lets make it 10

£100 if you like?

we could go on for ever mitey!

who is the judge and jury?

Jury by poll.

(1) There are egotosical mauri traditions in rugby.
(2) There are egotistical Maori traditions in rugby.
(3) There are neither.

good one lol

Can I have my £100?

you can have the 10 on tab(we didnt agree on 100)

double of nothing on the outcome of england v wales

I knew you were going to say that.

See you two in the pub afterwards. Someones going to be shouting.

Traditions can't be egotistical only people.
Of course its a rugby tradition even if its only a NZ rugby tradition. It predates the RWC, 5 point tries and lifting in the lineouts.
Sure it's not as old as England vs Wales but its still about 100 years old. For NZ that's ancient history.

Yes the Haka in rugby is only 50 odd years younger than our nations founding document- the treaty of Waitangi in 1840.

It just doesn't have as many issues...

the tradition isnt egotistical- the nzru are for using it. The Haka is no different from an anthem to NZ- its nothing to do with rugby whatsoever. Therefore in all honesty as a measure of fairness id rather NZ only have one anthem- like the rest of us do!

Does anyone else remember the Haka's from the late 70's early 80's? Now they were not really as powerful as they are today.

Regardless of what people say, the Haka is a tradition in rugby, it is possible the most recognisable thing in rugby, it is something for the fans and it is something that gets the blood pumping for both teams.

I love it and long may it stay.

you can think it is as much as you like billy - but it isnt- you maybe confusing the word tradition, and have allowed history to be rewritten- which is fine, however it doesnt mean NZ are bigger than the game it self- they dont deserve two anthems- use there mauri war cry or there NZ anthem- one or the other!

The Haka has become a rugby tradition in NZ rugby and many pacific Islands so yes i believe that it can be considered a tradition in rugby in general. The All Blacks have been doing it before matches for as long as i can remember. I do not believe that NZ or the other PI sides that do their own Haka are bigger than the game at all. New Zealand is a country that is made up of two main cultures and i feel that both have a right to be represented.

Irelands call, sung after the Irish anthem is not a tradition and i personally dont believe that it should be done.

If NZ were ranked 10th and the 6n's teams found themselves beating them, not all the time but a good percentage and always in with a shout, then no one would harping on about the Haka. No one seems to mind Samoa, Tonga or Fiji doing it, it's just we're all used to NZ handing us our backsides on a plate half the time and the other half just plain beating us.

The Haka gives no one an advantage, it fires everyone up and I want to see it continue.

It definitly is a modern take on rugby, which is fine- this game does need 'identity' for sure- therefore i suppose it is helping the game. however if england did something like this before football games, or any game- imagine the public outcry!

I think the problem may only occur if NZ fell from grace- imagine they were just an average team, it may just become embarrasing for all concerned

overlordofthewest wrote:If NZ were ranked 10th and the 6n's teams found themselves beating them, not all the time but a good percentage and always in with a shout, then no one would harping on about the Haka. No one seems to mind Samoa, Tonga or Fiji doing it, it's just we're all used to NZ handing us our backsides on a plate half the time and the other half just plain beating us.

The Haka gives no one an advantage, it fires everyone up and I want to see it continue.

would it continue?, or would the HAKA be so marketable towards rugby if the allblacks werent the best in the game?

I think it would continue even if NZ were rubbish at rugby. We wouldn't be hearing people moan about it though.

I sometimes get the impression this topic comes up when there is nothing else to moan about.

Which is surprising if you think about it....................................referees..................................................laws..............................................................IRB.........................................HAKA...................Oh, ok see where you get it from.

Does NZ use the HAKA for other sports?

Haven't seen their cricket team do it.

I would think it is appropriate for rugby because it is .......MODERN WARFARE.

i think the biggest problem in regards to the haka- and what really gets my or others goats up- is when france were fined for challenging the haka!

that is a perfect example of the haka not being fair, and that there is something wrong about the situation.

therefore- allow the haka- but allow others to challenge, or give em one or the other uncontested(national anthem or haka), disrupting the haka would then be like a team disrupting the others national anthem.

so why were france fined- simple really- nothing to do with respect- but to stop teams from challenging due to sponsership- exactly the same as why players in the prem get carded for taking there shirts off! that stinks abit, and i suppose proves my point- if NZ wasnt the best- the haka wouldnt be important and it wouldnt be protected, because it wouldnt have any commercial gain

In regards to the France fine, that was simply ridiculous. There was no need for the IRB to take that stance, the All Blacks werent up set by it so it was really just a stupid thing from the IRB not the All Blacks, thats a very important point when looking at that individual occurance.

Its pointless bringing England into this discussion as they dont have anything like that and never have so there is no real way you can assosiate the two.

The closest comparison is Irelands Call for Ireland and that is something that is relatively new and to me is not needed as it is not a tradition of the Irish.

trying to show that the haka is only for commercial gain at present because nz are the best but nothing to do with rugby tradition.

the irb are only protectingthe haka for commercial gain- if nz wernt the best they wouldnt give a monkies about it. the haka is here at present because the IRB want it- no other reason. that was proved by them fining france

irelands call is just political isnt it, unifying a split nation. i think that goes way beyond the game of rugby itself, nothing to do with trying to attach a tradition of the best rugby nation to rugby itself

To me, the Haka began because the Maoris wanted to express their own national pride. It quickly became culturally accepted in All Black rugby. Through the years it was accepted as a general tradition in All Black rugby.

It is arguably the most recognised aspects of rugby (to the non playing nations) in general so i can understand that the IRB utilise this for marketing performances. That said, the IRB should not govern it and decide what actions opposing teams can and cant do in response.

People seem to get upset because they think that the All Blacks are the ones who dont want teams to respond, this is not true, its the IRB. From what i have seen and heard from AB's, they actually welcome a counter challenge.

Several years ago some Kiwi Munster players did their own Haka in reply to the AB's and the AB's loved it.

Yep the problem with the haka is the irb's protection of it- however they allow it for commercial reasons. the haka is not the all blacks property anymore- and is the problem with the haka. The irb would drop it like a sack of spuds if it didnt generate interest in the game

mystiroakey wrote:Does NZ use the HAKA for other sports?

The league (World Champs too. Sorry couldn´t resist) team do a haka, the Tall Blacks (not a coffee but a basketball team) do one before the game.

Maoris don't tend to play cricket so the haka is performed when there is a high representative percentage.

on the subjesct of cricket- i think its quite a rare occurence when they even bother playing the national anthem pre game- just not cricket all that emotion is it!

Cricket's long enough without hakas and anthems. The long version of the game takes five days and doesn't necessarily get an end result. That fact seems to completely baffle most people who know the game. Of course we lucky few know that it´s the perfect excuse to sit around and do very little except drink for five blissful days.

If a haka adds 10 minutes to a rugby game and you´d rather not watch it, think of it as a chance to go for one more round of drinks before the game starts and 10 more minutes where your real world responsibilities can be shirked.

The one question i would like to ask, is why is the opposition not allowed to challenge the Haka?

I mean the Haka is supposed to be a Challenge, isn't it?

Why indeed. The IRB doesn't want the eyeball stuff because it doesn't want to see the haka descend into a fist fight. Unfortunately it has removed all the tension and thrill of the haka. It´s like these plastic playgrounds children play in nowadays. How are you supposed to break your leg in all that plastic heap?

mystiroakey wrote:Does NZ use the HAKA for other sports?

I've seen the NZ Ice Hockey team do a haka on skates - impressive. Though the zamboni took 5 minutes afterwards to clean up the ice afterwards


We'd quite happily give up God Defend New Zealand, it's a dirge. And in fairness we don't inflict our other national anthem on you (NZ, like Denmark, has 2 official national anthems, GDNZ, and a little ditty asking a deity to help out the reigning monarch that you may have heard before).

Kiwi , your Anthem in Maori is great, I enjoy it, better than the one in english.

ok how about this deal.

you can have the nz anthem, the nz anthem in maori, the haka for 15 minutes- as long as we can get rid of GSTQ and have jerusleum

As a matter of interest how long do the New Zealand team spend practising the Haka, is it something young kids do in front of the mirror like playing air guitar, dreaming of playing in the shirt, or is it something you get lessons in when you get the call up ?

mystiroakey wrote:the tradition isnt egotistical- the nzru are for using it. The Haka is no different from an anthem to NZ- its nothing to do with rugby whatsoever. Therefore in all honesty as a measure of fairness id rather NZ only have one anthem- like the rest of us do!

I'd prefer that every country do what they like to represent the different cultures they have in their countries. If they only have one culture fine. If they want to have a multilingual anthem fine too. If they want to do a little dance - great! Fairness is not about everyone doing the same thing but having the same chances.

If you read the Wiki on the Haka you will find that the Haka has a fairly long tradition in NZ rugby and has little to do with professionalism, money and the NZRFU

Exactly ngan, some countries have more than one culture as i alluded to earlier in this thread.

What gets my goat is that people think that the NZRU are the ones stopping any sort of challenge to the Haka when that is simply untrue, its the IRB, the All Blacks welcome a counter challenge. Its sad when people see the Haka as something that the NZRU use as a money spinner and that is also simply not true.

The Haka has a very long and proud tradition within NZ rugby, i like it and want it to stay.

Still trying to picture Kiwi's ice hockey team doing the Haka, that must have been something to see

I guess they won't make any sudden moves though.