Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

First topic message reminder :

Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

It can be intimidating
http://folksong.org.nz/kapa_o_pango/new_haka2.jpg

It can also be funny
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Travel/Pix/pictures/2009/2/18/1234970115986/Haka-Rugby-haka-France-vs-001.jpg

Some players love it
http://www.rugbydump.com/media/posts/richard-cokerill-haka-rd.jpg

Some teams disrespect it
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3036/3052636403_13e7fc1d1c_z.jpg?zz=1


Discuss

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It starts off in Maori miteyironpaw and then it´s sung again in English. Pointless really. It sounds actually quite good in Maori and then dreary and sad in English! God defend us? We don´t need God when we have Kaino, McCaw and Read.

I feel like such an imperialist, I honestly never noticed. I thought the whole thing was in Maori. Mind you I tend to dash out for a last nervous wee prior to kick off during the anthems, I guess I must have missed the English bit every single time. Or maybe I get thrown off by the accent.

If the NH teams would be generous enough to entertain other PI teams they would realise that the Haka from NZ was not the only tribal challenge. In fact the PI's further North could be considered older in terms of how the Polynesisans discovered the S Pacific.

I am not happy with the way the IRB have taken ownership of the response to the Haka. Not impressed about the way NZ tink they can run rampant all over the world dictating to others when and how they can perform the Haka either. It is a NZ thing and should be conducted in NZ as they see fit, in other countries they should accept the programme laid down by that country and stop being so precious about it (but I think that is an Adidas thing!).

To be fair Woodstock the host unions love the Haka to be performed. It is, whether you like it or not, actually symbolic of the challenge of having New Zealand at your national stadium. It makes a great marketing icon to get punters in.

Don't let's drag the German's into this, things will quickly approach the Godwin limit.

As stated I live in NZ and love the Haka but I am Welsh and agree with what happened a few years back. What the AB's did in Cardiff was in all honesty an act of stupidity on behalf of the AB's as they did not lay down a challenge to Wales but performed it in the comfort of their dressing room. By Maori cultural ways that would not be done.

Haka's are not carried out by any grass roots, Provincial or Super Union teams, although that said some grass roots clubs will do it against close rivals. I have seen Haka's performed after games in the club house against Eastern United and Te Rarawa in genuine friendship before the hangi was served up.

Anyway Haka in Rugby Union occursat AB and schoolboy level.

Unfortunately the Germans hold a huge stake in the AB shirt and all things AB at the moment! And here's NZ with Canterbury Shirts.....terrible.

Woodstock wrote:Not impressed about the way NZ tink they can run rampant all over the world dictating to others when and how they can perform the Haka either.

Aren't you a lucky boy indeed then that you weren't from one of these Polynesian islanders when great ships with large white sails were first viewed on the horizon...far away neighbours coming to call, intending very much to stay and not too particular whether you put out the 'welcome' mat or not. I'd suspect the islanders weren't impressed

Be happy that the Haka is all the dictating the PIs get around to.

SecretFly wrote:

Woodstock wrote:Not impressed about the way NZ tink they can run rampant all over the world dictating to others when and how they can perform the Haka either.

Aren't you a lucky boy indeed then that you weren't from one of these Polynesian islanders when great ships with large white sails were first viewed on the horizon...far away neighbours coming to call, intending very much to stay and not too particular whether you put out the 'welcome' mat or not. I'd suspect the islanders weren't impressed

Be happy that the Haka is all the dictating the PIs get around to.

Chill out son, they all got cars, Levis, Hip Hop, KFC and I dont see any of them complaining ...do you?? Good job the Brits were kind enough to churn out a treaty too!! Seems as if that is pretty much held onto aye!!

SecretFly wrote:

Woodstock wrote:Not impressed about the way NZ tink they can run rampant all over the world dictating to others when and how they can perform the Haka either.

Aren't you a lucky boy indeed then that you weren't from one of these Polynesian islanders when great ships with large white sails were first viewed on the horizon...far away neighbours coming to call, intending very much to stay and not too particular whether you put out the 'welcome' mat or not. I'd suspect the islanders weren't impressed

Be happy that the Haka is all the dictating the PIs get around to.

Other than the scoreboard, more often than not, unfortunately.

HERSH wrote:Some players love it
http://www.rugbydump.com/media/posts/richard-cokerill-haka-rd.jpg

Some teams disrespect it
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3036/3052636403_13e7fc1d1c_z.jpg?zz=1


Discuss

Knowing you, that's a subtle dig at Wales. Firstly, I would hardly call what we did disrespecting it (despite what Nonu and Henry thought), secondly what Cockerill did was probably far more disrespectful, seeing as we didn't go toe to toe with anybody.

Risca Rev wrote:

HERSH wrote:Some players love it
http://www.rugbydump.com/media/posts/richard-cokerill-haka-rd.jpg

Some teams disrespect it
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3036/3052636403_13e7fc1d1c_z.jpg?zz=1


Discuss

Knowing you, that's a subtle dig at Wales. Firstly, I would hardly call what we did disrespecting it (despite what Nonu and Henry thought), secondly what Cockerill did was probably far more disrespectful, seeing as we didn't go toe to toe with anybody.

I chatted with Ma'a last season at Kerikeri when the Blues took on the Hurricanes. He was mis quoted. Have a look at the pictures of him wearing the Welsh shirt with some of the Welsh lads. If you also seach you can see him wearing the Bangor Rugby Club Youth side's shirt. I showed him the picture and he was amazed. Henry has enough friends in Cardiff alone for people to realise that he loves Wales.

Woodstock, or should I say WelshJohn I've heard this story before. Welcome back.

The All Blacks loved what Cockerill did, when Wales just stood there it showed a huge lack of respect, Nonu cried he was so upset, so did AWJ but for reasons unknown.

HERSH wrote:The All Blacks loved what Cockerill did, when Wales just stood there it showed a huge lack of respect, Nonu cried he was so upset, so did AWJ but for reasons unknown.

Explain how it was a lack of respect?? You have no idea really do you

Wales got preoccupied with their response to the Haka which was to freeze like rabbits in the headlights.

Unfortunately some of them got that confused with the game plan, remained frozen for 80 minutes and were hence run down like roadkill.

Moral : worry about the rugby and let the rituals take care of themselves.

Woodstock wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Woodstock wrote:Not impressed about the way NZ tink they can run rampant all over the world dictating to others when and how they can perform the Haka either.

Aren't you a lucky boy indeed then that you weren't from one of these Polynesian islanders when great ships with large white sails were first viewed on the horizon...far away neighbours coming to call, intending very much to stay and not too particular whether you put out the 'welcome' mat or not. I'd suspect the islanders weren't impressed

Be happy that the Haka is all the dictating the PIs get around to.

Chill out son,

Now you got it, good man Woodstock!... the running 'rampant all over the world'', and 'dictating', and telling us to do things we don't want to do but have to do because the big bad men in the IRB insist, and us fumin' on the pitch as they sulk in the dressing room and don't want to come out and play like and listen to our anthem last, and all!!!!

Perfect solution to all that there drama = Chill out, son.

miteyironpaw wrote:Wales got preoccupied with their response to the Haka which was to freeze like rabbits in the headlights.

Unfortunately some of them got that confused with the game plan, remained frozen for 80 minutes and were hence run down like roadkill.

Moral : worry about the rugby and let the rituals take care of themselves.

Really? I actually thought that was Wales's best performance against NZ

This wouldn't be another Welshman celebrating a defeat would it? These boards seem full of it today.

best way to react is the Campese way - just go and do your own warm up under the posts -

Or

The scots lads could wear kilts and give the tradition scottish challenge

http://bp3.blogger.com/_tl5aylc0znI/R6a4D7ZMcUI/AAAAAAAAAFU/PZ8V9Abz4x4/s400/MoonOverScotland.jpg

Im saying that was our best performance and the extra adrenaline from standing up to the haka possibly helped that.

When your best isn't good enough, the best advice is to keep quiet and go back to the drawing board rather than singing your own praises. That's my feeling anyway.

How am i singing my own praises. I responded to your comment where you said
"Unfortunately some of them got that confused with the game plan, remained frozen for 80 minutes and were hence run down like roadkill."
Which is simply untrue.
Im not celebrating a defeat. Im just saying they played well in that game...

Not well enough to win.

Our definitions of playing well are different. My benchmark is winning, not losing admirably.

I guess that's the difference between us.

The Haka isn't unfair, it's just a folk dance. The shrouding of it in mystry and requirement for respect for something which clearly is not respectfull in itself by the governing bodies is laughable.

SecretFly wrote:

Woodstock wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Woodstock wrote:Not impressed about the way NZ tink they can run rampant all over the world dictating to others when and how they can perform the Haka either.

Aren't you a lucky boy indeed then that you weren't from one of these Polynesian islanders when great ships with large white sails were first viewed on the horizon...far away neighbours coming to call, intending very much to stay and not too particular whether you put out the 'welcome' mat or not. I'd suspect the islanders weren't impressed

Be happy that the Haka is all the dictating the PIs get around to.

Chill out son,

Now you got it, good man Woodstock!... the running 'rampant all over the world'', and 'dictating', and telling us to do things we don't want to do but have to do because the big bad men in the IRB insist, and us fumin' on the pitch as they sulk in the dressing room and don't want to come out and play like and listen to our anthem last, and all!!!!

Perfect solution to all that there drama = Chill out, son.

Oh OK what Hapu do you belong to?

miteyironpaw wrote:Ireland get two anthems.
South Africa get an anthem that goes on forever in 143 different languages.
In Scotland the visiting team are frozen to death while they are forced to shake hands with a crudely re-animated corpse, which is just freaky.
Here in England we have the advantage of having made up all the rules and having enough money to get them changed any time we want.
The Welsh have the advantage of thinking they've won even when they lose.
Frankly I say let them have it.

The Haka is one of the great traditions in Rugby. I love it.

I love the haka especially the responses to it. The home fans singing over it, the home players staring it down. The welsh response and the English one with cockerill getting in his opposite mans grill were both awesome. It seems to me that it is actually only a few kiwis who get precious about it, them and the Irritable Rugby Bores. The in-the-changing room episode in Cardiff was pathetic but it was a once off, and clearly avoidable with better communication between the boards and had the IRB kept their noses out.

Bring on the haka, and bring on the opposition teams responses without fear of being labelled disrespectful by a whingeing minority of the PC 'someone must be offended' brigade!

damngoodOvalball wrote:I love the haka especially the responses to it. The home fans singing over it, the home players staring it down. The welsh response and the English one with cockerill getting in his opposite mans grill were both awesome. It seems to me that it is actually only a few kiwis who get precious about it, them and the Irritable Rugby Bores. The in-the-changing room episode in Cardiff was pathetic but it was a once off, and clearly avoidable with better communication between the boards and had the IRB kept their noses out.

Bring on the haka, and bring on the opposition teams responses without fear of being labelled disrespectful by a whingeing minority of the PC 'someone must be offended' brigade!

Exactly. All this. The Haka. The responses. All terrific.

Over precious, mardy, blatantly unfair, too theatrical, past its sell by date and over commercialised and to me those are the Haka's good points.

How dare the AB's run rampant over opposition feelings when they are playing away and dictate how other teams will respond to them!!

Because if they don't want teams to respond, then they should do the thing in the privacy of their Changing rooms.

I used to love the AB's until things like this came along and while i can accept that they rule the Rugby establishment (well almost) and this is just the straw that breaks the Camels back for me.

Get rid of it as there is no place for cheap theatrical B.S. on a Rugby pitch.

Professional sport is in essence, theatre!
A traditional jig and a sing song add to that theatre. It certainly doesn't take anything away from it.

I think you're being a bit harsh on the kiwi's there warrior. Largely it's the administrators who get precious and only a small minority of AB supporters.

That said, I agree with the view that when playing away the ABs should fit in with the home unions schedule without resorting to toy throwing as happened in Cardiff. Like I said, that seems to have been a one off, and I'm sure it wasn't solely the kiwis to blame for the shambles

Over precious, mardy, blatantly unfair, too theatrical, past its sell by date and over commercialised and to me those are the Haka's good points.
You actually beleive yourself when you say that, go stand in front of a mirror, look at yourself and say that with a staight face.

How dare the AB's run rampant over opposition feelings when they are playing away and dictate how other teams will respond to them!!
THe IRB dictate how you may respond, not the All Blacks.

Because if they don't want teams to respond, then they should do the thing in the privacy of their Changing rooms.
Again refer to the IRB

I used to love the AB's until things like this came along and while i can accept that they rule the Rugby establishment (well almost) and this is just the straw that breaks the Camels back for me.
Perhaps you need to verify your facts before you blame them.

Get rid of it as there is no place for cheap theatrical B.S. on a Rugby pitch.
Man, you sound more bitter about it than convincing.

Biltong- My honest assessment truly and plainly given, as someone who has loved AB rugby in the past and cannot stand it now. Let me ask you again, who dominates the IRB, well i'll tell you, economic interests dominate that organisation, as with many/ every other organisation and hence the AB's are seen as Rugby's cash cow. Therefore pressure is exerted through economic means to allow the AB's to get away with all kinds of Crap that would be punished in other nations. There have you got it now!!

It's the joint oldest tradition in rugby, equal with Wales losing and claiming a moral victory.

If I had to get rid of one of those traditions, I know which one would be my priority

They only started doing the haka for the crowd, read it up

It's part of the game, though over the years New Zealand have threatened not to do it when they have had the hump with some teams reactions to it, and other times some teams think they should not do it.

Personally I think it's great and to be fair it is only intimidating because New Zealand so seldom lose, no one ever says the Fiji, Tonga or Samoan one is intimidating!

New Zealand would still be a hard team to beat Haka or not!
they put a lot of effort and time into it, and the more time they spend pracitcing a dance the less time their spending on battering Wales so I'm happy for them to do it!

I believe the Haka wasn't regularly performed prior to every game before the first world cup.

Perhaps now that they've won it again, they could give it a rest.

Didn't Buck Shelford (some time in the 80s) have a hand in instituting the Haka as a regular fixture?!?

He made it a proper haka. Before that it was quite frankly pathetic

My take is the Haka is viewed as an advantage because the All Blacks win. It's an interesting theory but not neccessarily true,

It;s worth remembering that the haka in rugby games was essentially forced on NZ by the home nations (who tried to do the same for the boks and Wallabies). NZ tried to get out of it for many years, and only played when touring, never at home. The difference is we now have taken ownership of it and do it properly.

In terms of an advantage, I'd say early teams were at a disadvantage. The mostly pakaha boys went through the motion, whilst those Maori players from Iwi such as Ngai Tahu can't have been happy about singing Te Rauprehas haka (about as happy as Irish catholics would be singing god save the queen).

It's only been done properly since 1987, when Buck Shelford became captain, and real ownship probably only came with the All Blacks own haka in the last 10 years.

My point is the AB's and the haka have grown together because they were forced on each other. If you really want to give the AB's an advantage take it away. That'll really fire them up before games (you make us do it for your entertainment, we take it seriously, then you take it away). I'd really like to be at that game.

p.s. Welsh supporters upset with the Cardiff debacle might want to look at the WRFU.

Ill blame the allblacks/NZRU for what happened in Cardiff. The WRU wanted the welsh team to respond to the haka with the national anthem. The allblacks/NZRU disagreed and went to the changing rooms instead.

The Haka has its place most fans enjoy it, my only insistance is that it should be done when the other nation wants it done when playing on away soil....that is call respect.

NZ don't do it but if they were to play in Tonga, Fiji or Samoa, would they insist on doing it last there? That would be the height of arrogance.

gowales wrote:Ill blame the allblacks/NZRU for what happened in Cardiff. The WRU wanted the welsh team to respond to the haka with the national anthem. The allblacks/NZRU disagreed and went to the changing rooms instead.

It's all a blame game. But it takes two to tango. I'm not suggesting the NZRFU are saints. But you have to question the WRFU. They didn't get buy in the from their NZ counterparts, so pushed on anyway. Whilst all around are running about saying it's not my fault, the whole thing smacks of dysfunction. I suspect its as much about personalities in the two unions as anything else.

P.s. I thought it was the Welsh RFU wanting to alter the pre match schedule. The Welsh asked and NZRFU had agreed in 2005. The WRFU demanded the same a year later. The NZRFU said no thank you. The WRFU set the schedule and the AB's chose not perform in public. The WRU have key role to play here. They decided to dictate conditions when it was obvious that the AB's were unhappy. Yes the AB's could have performed, but it's not a requirement and they could have been more ameniable. In the end the element of the welsh teams response isn't an issue.

I think if teams don't want the AB's to perform the haka, they are happy not to. I'm sure if any team asked them not to perform it, they would conceed. They've stated as much publically.

The point is the haka is part of the theatre of rugby. It's performed by mutual agreement.

blackcanelion wrote:The point is the haka is part of the theatre of rugby. It's performed by mutual agreement.

No it is not, the Haka is a huge part of Maori culture and it should be performed accordingly. Hence the joke that was the Haka in the dressing rooms in Cardiff. This was just a childish reaction by the AB's and was not performed in any context that Maori would have perfoormed it. I would be happy to hear from any person associated with a Hapu who would state that they would do a Haka in private.

Just an Adidas moment so their precious little logo could be observed!

Gee I'm sitting in my house with the Maori whanau getting a lecture about Maori culture from a welshman. Don't take it personally if I chose to ignore it.

In terms of haka and where it is performed. I'm not maori, but grew up in a small Maori town. I can remember performing haka in situations that weren't public. I'm not an expert on the Maori culture or the haka, but I'm pretty sure that this was debated in NZ at the time.

Yes it is part of the theatre of rugby. That is why it was imposed on the all blacks by the WRFU, IRFU, SRFU and RFU. It was a marketing gimmick to help sell matches. That is why for most of the 20th century it was onl;y performed in overseas matches, not in NZ. It's history in All Blacks rugby has more to do with theatre than Maori tradition.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting the AB's or NZRFU are blameless. I'm not suggesting they couldn't have been more accomadating. However, the same can be said of the WRFU and that is the point. Like it or not, the haka has become an important tradition in games involving the AB's. It is a prematch ritual imbued in history and emotion for fans. The WRFU played their part, they played a game of brinkmanship, in the end the fans lost out. I notice thay haven't done the same since.

Hahaha typical response no one outside the borders of NZ dare speak about things NZ becasue they are always wrong.

Were you preactising the Haka? I would imagine so black. It is not a matter of debate but one of culture.

No one imposed anything on you.... you could have said NO anytime you wished, like Wales did a few years ago!
They did not require a marketing gimmic in Wales either, rugby was enough, try and get your views on other coutries clear beofre you pop one off against them!
All I have asked for is a member of a Hapu who can honsetly state that they perfom the Haka (not practicing) in private or in conjunction with a Karakia.

I may be Welsh pal but I am sitting in the living room of a dear and loved Kuia right behind the whare kai at Ti Tii Marae. Her and her friends have guided me through too much forme just to be classed as some gobshiate on Maori culture.

Don't take it personally if I ignore any Kiwii who pops up here trying to slap me down without genuine evidence.

No not practicing. This is a while back as I'm getting on a bit. It was in the days before every kiwi, did a haka any time anything happened. It was performed essentially as self motivation (I have no idea how common or uncommon this is/was) and I was only involved for a short time before I left home. To be honest I always found it difficult as was a relatively skinny whitekid. My understanding (and I'm not an expert) is that haka were always performed as means of motivation (and to scare opposition). Like I said I'm not an expert, whilst my extended family is Maori and I've spent time on and around Marae, I'm conscious of my own short comings.

As I said earlier, the private haka was debated in NZ following the game. My memory is that a number of prominant Maori cultural experts came out and defended the All Blacks right to perform in private (that is not say thier decision not to perfvorm was right, just that is consistent with the history and purpose of the haka). Maori culture being what it is (a culture where is history and debate are chrished) I'd expect different views.

In terms of imposition you're probably strictly correct. However, it's on record that the all blacks tried several times to get out of performing haka before tests in the UK, but bowed to pressure (I think the last time might have been in the 70's). In terms of marketing use. That is why the haka was included in the 1889 Natives tour and the 1904 All Black s tour. It's clear that it isn't required now, or for quite a while for welsh games.

However, all this doesn't detract from my comments re the WRFU. It's not just a case of the AB's being possibly petulant (I've always said they have their part to play), the WRFU has major part to play. As you said no ones forcing the AB's to perform the haka. That's the point, this is the first time they have said you aren't forcing us to perform it.

Woodstock wrote:Hahaha typical response no one outside the borders of NZ dare speak about things NZ becasue they are always wrong.

Were you preactising the Haka? I would imagine so black. It is not a matter of debate but one of culture.

No one imposed anything on you.... you could have said NO anytime you wished, like Wales did a few years ago!
They did not require a marketing gimmic in Wales either, rugby was enough, try and get your views on other coutries clear beofre you pop one off against them!
All I have asked for is a member of a Hapu who can honsetly state that they perfom the Haka (not practicing) in private or in conjunction with a Karakia.

I may be Welsh pal but I am sitting in the living room of a dear and loved Kuia right behind the whare kai at Ti Tii Marae. Her and her friends have guided me through too much forme just to be classed as some gobshiate on Maori culture.

Don't take it personally if I ignore any Kiwii who pops up here trying to slap me down without genuine evidence.

I am not for one second trying to belittle Kiwi/ Maori here but I think it is so important that cultural aspects of a race of people is kept. We all know that Maori take forever to agree with each other never mind others!! Differend hapu thoughout NZ will argue different things, that is healthy and keeps the culture going. One Kaumatua in Waikato would argue against the beliefs of a Kaumatoa in Northland for example.

I seriously doubt if any country truly wants to see the Haka taken away from the AB's, but a little diplomacy must be put in place surrounding when it is done abraod.

Let's also face the fact that lost's of white kids do the haka as part of school rugby and particiapting in Kapa Haka, I abohore the ideals of those who believe Maori is just for Maori. We all know what a melting pot NZ is now and for 99% of the time is is a great place to be.

I really like the HAKA and think that it has its place in the game. That said, i do believe that teams should be able to respond to it how they choose to.

Well you can't very well let an opposing team piddle infront of a Haka, billy... it's a family show folks So there has to be etiquette of sorts so that no fists start flying before the game starts.

I think the IRB are just too...................... what's the word?............. uptight about it all. As long as there are clear guidelines from the ref or officials in changing rooms before games that any responses are strictly confined to histrionics and absolutely no physical contact between teams..then things should play out fine. I think the IRB worry that tempers flare when the rituals and counter-rituals are allowed too much leeway.

And apart from the undoubted headlines it would get across the world, and the big internet hit the YouTube footage would get, seeing a vicious physical encounter develop before an International game wouldn't be good for the game, the Haka or the reputations of the players who might be involved.

But if firm ground rules were demanded, then a little more leeway could be shown the opposing side, something to at least remove the perception that they have been chained to their docile positions by rules rather than the real challenge coming from the ABs. Opposing teams, some of them, obviously feel they are being forced to appear passive or even submissive when facing the challenge. That perception will have to be worked on by the IRB.

SecretFly wrote:Well you can't very well let an opposing team piddle infront of a Haka, billy... it's a family show folks So there has to be etiquette of sorts so that no fists start flying before the game starts.

Surely though, you would'nt piddle on the ground you were about to play on.... imagine being tackled in that area

Black canelon- 'I'm sitting in my house getting a lecture from a welshman on Maori culture, don't take it personally if i choose to ignore it'


Great, so if you don't want outside people to comment on it, then do the damn thing in PRIVATE, or within the borders of NZ, and certainly don't do it in staiums with 10's of thousands present and millions more watching at home. If the AB's bring it in to the public arena and get precious about it because people want to comment, then Bad luck!!

Tackled in the piddle area???

Ambiguous Yellow card for sure!! Red if the victim needs medical attention! Standards must be upheld, what ho!