Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

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Is the Haka fair on the opposition?

It can be intimidating
http://folksong.org.nz/kapa_o_pango/new_haka2.jpg

It can also be funny
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Travel/Pix/pictures/2009/2/18/1234970115986/Haka-Rugby-haka-France-vs-001.jpg

Some players love it
http://www.rugbydump.com/media/posts/richard-cokerill-haka-rd.jpg

Some teams disrespect it
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3036/3052636403_13e7fc1d1c_z.jpg?zz=1


Discuss

I cant even ice skate so i would dread to think how they managed it. The ice must have been in tatters...

A few months ago,a number of New Zealanders were playing college basketball in utah,after one particular game the New Zealand contingent did a haka.The American cops at the game had never seen a haka before,so they tear gased and beat up the paricipating players and parents with their batons because they thought that " the big polynesians" were rioting..

Seriously Laurie?

Mind you i can understand, rampaging polynesians is a scary thought

Eirebilly
true,it happened in a country town called Roosevelt,Utah.late last year.

Last I heard there were serious allegations of police brutality and being culturally ignorant -you can imagine American civil rights campaigners getting on board for that fight.....

Then it is absolutely astounding laurie, mind you it is America so you kind of expect that.

The American Lawyers will be all over it, thats for sure.

nganboy wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the tradition isnt egotistical- the nzru are for using it. The Haka is no different from an anthem to NZ- its nothing to do with rugby whatsoever. Therefore in all honesty as a measure of fairness id rather NZ only have one anthem- like the rest of us do!

I'd prefer that every country do what they like to represent the different cultures they have in their countries. If they only have one culture fine. If they want to have a multilingual anthem fine too. If they want to do a little dance - great! Fairness is not about everyone doing the same thing but having the same chances.

If you read the Wiki on the Haka you will find that the Haka has a fairly long tradition in NZ rugby and has little to do with professionalism, money and the NZRFU

ermm, i think your missing the point entirely. the point is what the haka is for rugby. and that is for a commercial benefit - it is protected by the IRB.

eirebilly wrote:Exactly ngan, some countries have more than one culture as i alluded to earlier in this thread.

What gets my goat is that people think that the NZRU are the ones stopping any sort of challenge to the Haka when that is simply untrue, its the IRB, the All Blacks welcome a counter challenge. Its sad when people see the Haka as something that the NZRU use as a money spinner and that is also simply not true.

The Haka has a very long and proud tradition within NZ rugby, i like it and want it to stay.

Still trying to picture Kiwi's ice hockey team doing the Haka, that must have been something to see

I dont think anyone blames the NZRU in that case- everyone knows it was the irb fining france because of the IRB's sponsership deals- surely you understood that?

it has nothing to do with the NZRU using it as a money spinner- its the IRB!!

mystiroakey wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Exactly ngan, some countries have more than one culture as i alluded to earlier in this thread.

What gets my goat is that people think that the NZRU are the ones stopping any sort of challenge to the Haka when that is simply untrue, its the IRB, the All Blacks welcome a counter challenge. Its sad when people see the Haka as something that the NZRU use as a money spinner and that is also simply not true.

The Haka has a very long and proud tradition within NZ rugby, i like it and want it to stay.

Still trying to picture Kiwi's ice hockey team doing the Haka, that must have been something to see

I dont think anyone blames the NZRU in that case- everyone knows it was the irb fining france because of the IRB's sponsership deals- surely you understood that?

it has nothing to do with the NZRU using it as a money spinner- its the IRB!!

eeehhhmmm ok Mysti, i wasnt refeering to you with that comment.

I have also said on many times that the IRB uses it as a money spinner. I have also stated that the IRB, in fining France, made huge fools of themselves so i have no idea no idea what point you are trying to make to me?

My point was to say that i dont think many blame the NZRU for the fine on the french.

Ok, i thought that was pretty clear that the IRB was to blame to be honest?

Mystir you will be surprised when you read through some of these comments, there are quite a number blaming the NZRU

mystiroakey wrote:

nganboy wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the tradition isnt egotistical- the nzru are for using it. The Haka is no different from an anthem to NZ- its nothing to do with rugby whatsoever. Therefore in all honesty as a measure of fairness id rather NZ only have one anthem- like the rest of us do!

I'd prefer that every country do what they like to represent the different cultures they have in their countries. If they only have one culture fine. If they want to have a multilingual anthem fine too. If they want to do a little dance - great! Fairness is not about everyone doing the same thing but having the same chances.

If you read the Wiki on the Haka you will find that the Haka has a fairly long tradition in NZ rugby and has little to do with professionalism, money and the NZRFU

ermm, i think your missing the point entirely. the point is what the haka is for rugby. and that is for a commercial benefit - it is protected by the IRB.

No, first and formost, the Haka is for the Maori players represent their culture on the field, nothing more nothing less. It has become a tradition in All Black rugby.
That the IRB uses it for advertisement is their choice (understandably) but they are doing a bad job of it in my opinion by not allowing other nations to counter challenge.

mystiroakey, you care confusing the Haka being marketable, with it being a marketing fabrication. It wouldn't be so marketable if it wasn't something unique and authentic from New Zealand. Don't make the mistake of writing it off as a tradition or cultural icon because it's not part of your countries tradition or culture.

i think i have explained myself fully throughout this thread- its just people like to pick and choose part of my posts and then act on them- rather than reading everything i have posted.

I get the HAKA. My point is that the IRB allow the HAKA, by allowing the haka(because it is benefical to the world game commercially)- they have distorted is real motive and real relevance. They prooved that by fining france for contesting it- even though the ALL blacks themselves respect the challenge

at add- and try and condense my points into one post.

i dont believe the haka is fair as it is.

If we allow the kiwis to do something 'extra' then other teams should be allowed to if they want.

Other nations dont want or care to have an extra show of nationalitic pride, therefore they should be allowed to contest the haka if they want(i think everyone agrees on this point)

A poster on here made the point that the IRB didnt want some fight to break out due to the haka's counter challenge- know even if that was there main motive for fining france - Well the only logical solution for this is to ban the haka not the challenge(the haka respects the counter challenge)

Therefore IRB - ban the haka if you feel it causes problems, dont fine the teams for treating it for what it is supposed to be!

Now i honestly think the ban/fine came becuase they want the haka to become this worldy image of rugby, they didnt want the pinnacle events final tainted by a team(that in the face of it could be disrespecting the haka)

France didnt disresepct the HAKA- they counter challenged it- which in truth is giving it the ultimate respect.

The irb are utilising a MAORI tradition as an iconic rugby trademark

However this is not specific to rugby union at all- . I asked the question do other sports use the haka- people have come on and said no its not exculsive to rugby union at all . Its used in team sports that have a percentage of mouri sportsmen.

The only reason the IRB protect the haka and fine teams for contesting it is due to the commercial benefit it brings.

I am also 90% sure if NZ fell from grace they would be no benefit for treating the haka in this way. And if 'disrespectfull' challenges came about they would just drop the HAKA in an instant , they wouldnt fine teams for challenging it! They would kill the problem at its source - prevention is allways better than the cure.

Didn't Ma'a Nonu get in a hissy fit when Wales challenged the haka...

gowales wrote:Didn't Ma'a Nonu get in a hissy fit when Wales challenged the haka...

maybe, which is his egotistical problem, some fans/players will feel agrevied but that is there own personal problem and lack of understanding.

I don't think the IRB is solely to blame. I think there was some lobbying from some Maori groups to safe guard the Haka.

I am confussed. lol

anyway I think it boils down to a few points.

The all blacks are not bigger than the game of rugby.

IF mouri groups or the NZRU want to protect it and not allow challenges- then they are looking at the situation in a very biased and egotistical way.

however the IRB run the game and are ultimately to blame

mystiroakey wrote:

France didnt disresepct the HAKA- they counter challenged it- which in truth is giving it the ultimate respect.

The irb are utilising a MAORI tradition as an iconic rugby trademark

However this is not specific to rugby union at all- . I asked the question do other sports use the haka- people have come on and said no its not exculsive to rugby union at all . Its used in team sports that have a percentage of mouri sportsmen.

.

France weren't fined for disrespecting the Haka, they were fined for violating an IRB regulation on protocol, the same way a team would have been fined if their players had done the fingers during the opposition national anthem. There are some fairly provocative lyrics to various anthems (for example Flower of Scotland), but nobody continually feels the need to "respond to the challenge of Flower of Scotland" or otherwise disrupt the pre-game formalities.

The IRB have no trademark on Haka, infact the artistic rights are owned, I believe by the descendents of the person who wrote it, exactly the same way the the rights to Waltzing Matilda, which has been used by the Wallabies to respond to the Haka is owned by descendents of its creator. Sky Sports, the BBC, Star Sports, Fox Sports and various other commercial vendors choose to use images of the Haka as part of their marketing material to attract an audience to rugby, for this they pay royalties to the owner of the rights. Exactly the same way that these companies pay royalties to the owners of the rights for the music that they play over highlights montage packages. That's nothing to do with the IRB, or NZ or the NZRU or the All Blacks ... I don't see where this conspiracy theory of yours is coming from.

Why do you feel that the Haka has to be specific to rugby? Anthems aren't specific to rugby either, but you don't object to them being sung prior to kick off.

Ireland have two anthems, both are sung prior to kick off, I don't see you complaining about that. Fiji, Tonga and Samoa (and others) all perform their traditional dance prior to kick off and these are protected by the same IRB protocol regulartions, they are not something the IRB made up to "protect NZ". The reality is that it's only an issue for some small minded supporters of teams who feel threatened by NZ whereas they are happy to let the others carry on because there is no equivalent threat.

The truth is the more you make an issue of it, the more you perpetuate the aura that is cast. Just let it be and get on with the game and the problem goes away.

not sure i have a clue with what you are talking about in all fairness mitey?

i have no imediate problem with the haka- just explaining the problems it has created , many of them due to the IRB .

You are mis interpreting alot of waht i say. Maybe its because you cant understand that my argumnet in regards to the haka- has nothing to do with the kiwis or the NZRU, but more about how the IRB treat it. (the IRB have to treat it a certain way in all probability to appease sponsers that pay them rights)

I also have no conspracy theory at all- and have no idea how that thought process has got into your head

I've answered your points very specifically Mystriroakey, I'm fairly sure I understand you. It seems that in most cases you are just wrong.

You say "The IRB are utilising a Maori tradition as a rugby trademark". No they're not. How are the IRB "using" anything? Sponsors, media outlets etc. pay for the rights to use images of the Haka, just like anything else. No special case there, nothing to do with the IRB at all. Any trademarks or rights are not owned by the IRB.

You say France were fined for disrespecting the Haka - no they weren't.

The IRB have (sadly) been forced to implement protocols around behaviour during pre-match rituals because some teams have not been able to suitably restrain their behaviour in appropriate ways. I dare say that there are equivalent regulations on acceptible behaviour (as I've said) during anthems or hand-shakes or team-introductions or whatever, but these don't get so much air time as no one would think to do anything inappropriate at these moments. If someone did, for example France forming an arrowhead and advancing on the England team during GTSQ, I'm sure they'd be fined. I don't see your issue.

It doesn't seem to be how the IRB treat it, it seems to be how you treat it that is the problem.

"You say France were fined for disrespecting the Haka - no they weren't."

when the heck did i say that?

please read what i say mitey- your arguing stuff for no reason.

this is what i said

"(that in the face of it could be disrespecting the haka)"

"It doesn't seem to be how the IRB treat it, it seems to be how you treat it that is the problem."

more about how you misunderstand posts, and sentances.

anyway enoughs enough,

"for example France forming an arrowhead and advancing on the England team during GTSQ, I'm sure they'd be fined. I don't see your issue"

my issue- that is going to be your issue and only your issue- its quite resounding on here that the haka can and should be challenged when the team feels it is appropriate- that is the problem we all collectively have.

This thread is turning into the final scenes of Fight Club. It´s like a split personality arguing with themselves.

lol- time for me to get out i feel

mystiroakey wrote:"You say France were fined for disrespecting the Haka - no they weren't."

when the heck did i say that?

please read what i say mitey- your arguing stuff for no reason.

this is what i said

"(that in the face of it could be disrespecting the haka)"

What you said was that rather than fining France for disrespecting the Haka, the Haka should be banned preventing it from being in danger of being disrespected. I was making two points, one that France were fined for breaking an IRB regulation and that if you continue that logic you ban everything that anyone might respond to inappropriately. Good idea to bail on this argument, because you've well and truely lost it.

nope didnt say anything of the sort- and good luck winning an argument- one day it might happen

May I refer you to my earlier argument on this thread, where I won £10 for being undeniably correct

I'm perfectly happy with the Haka as it is,nothing about it should be prohibited,policed or changed.
The thing is that there is no right or wrong answers/replys and that is a common trait in Maori/Samoan/Tongan warrior cultures...sometimes just the idea and anticipation of the battle is more exciting than the actual battle itself....and thats just the beauty of it.

miteyironpaw wrote:for example France forming an arrowhead and advancing on the England team during GTSQ,

... or like Martin Johnston disrespecting the Irish President? Must be the Kiwi in him.

Weren't the French fined for encroaching within 10 metres of the Haka
or something?

Stuff the haka.Far too precious.It has had its day and should be consigned to the bin containing the 3 point try and Arthur Askey.

3 point try's..heard of them. Werent they used the last time to beat the AB's?

Yep...just checked...Ken Jones used one of those relic things you talk about taff. None of the higher ones seem to have worked since...

aucklandlaurie wrote: I'm perfectly happy with the Haka as it is,nothing about it should be prohibited,policed or changed.
The thing is that there is no right or wrong answers/replys.......

this is exactly the point. Dig it, enjoy it, reply as one sees fit. No worries.

But it is important to keep in mind we are not going to war. We are playing sport - great sport - but still sport. And it belongs to all of us now.

I guess that the Haka will always divide opions but i would be truely sad if it were ever to be taken out of the game. I love it