Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

I could have taken you up wrong but are you seriously blaming tommy Bowe for ROG taking out Du Preez in the air during the 2nd lions test?

ROG signalled to Bowe to chase and he didn't bother so he had to do it himself.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

I could have taken you up wrong but are you seriously blaming tommy Bowe for ROG taking out Du Preez in the air during the 2nd lions test?

ROG signalled to Bowe to chase and he didn't bother so he had to do it himself.

Ah Sin, you are some craic I will give you that.

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

I could have taken you up wrong but are you seriously blaming tommy Bowe for ROG taking out Du Preez in the air during the 2nd lions test?

ROG signalled to Bowe to chase and he didn't bother so he had to do it himself.

Ah Sin, you are some craic I will give you that.

Well Stand, you have a look at this video and say say whether ROG signalled to Tommy Bowe to chase or not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCo5n1QmaoM

You might also confirm whether O'gara looks as if he has taken a heavy knock to his head or not!

Its getting really bad now the lions afficionados are bringing up ROG and the tour to S A.

I wonder when the leinster crowd will start calling for Schmidt to be replaced when he picks Darcy at ic for the next HC or brings back BOD at oc. Bet that will be seen as real.progress.

As for the Ulster brigade its clear there players are all brilliant (at understanding Afrikaans that is).

Never noticed that Sin about the kick chase. Anyhow who gives a flute about the lions...:-)

DOD,
I've loved the Lions over the years, but I tend to agree with your long-standing argument, that they completely feic our players up for a season or so afterwards. Every time.

TG they will be mostly made up of Welsh and English players this time. A Blessing in disguise.

Tommy using his powers of mind control for evil again.

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

I could have taken you up wrong but are you seriously blaming tommy Bowe for ROG taking out Du Preez in the air during the 2nd lions test?

No what he's doing is the same thing DOD tried with his first post,he can't win a logical argument so he's trying his best to turn it into a provincial bunfight where people tend to get emotional.
The many flaws in his arguments were being pointed out well until this started but now the sensible arguments are being lost amidst the noise.Sin will defend Kidney to the last but don't make it easy for him by letting him derail the argument.

Gibson wrote:DOD,
I've loved the Lions over the years, but I tend to agree with your long-standing argument, that they completely feic our players up for a season or so afterwards. Every time.

TG they will be mostly made up of Welsh and English players this time. A Blessing in disguise.

Na, warburton is made of glass unfortunately. They will need POC & BOD.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

I could have taken you up wrong but are you seriously blaming tommy Bowe for ROG taking out Du Preez in the air during the 2nd lions test?

No what he's doing is the same thing DOD tried with his first post,he can't win a logical argument so he's trying his best to turn it into a provincial bunfight where people tend to get emotional.
The many flaws in his arguments were being pointed out well until this started but now the sensible arguments are being lost amidst the noise.Sin will defend Kidney to the last but don't make it easy for him by letting him derail the argument.

thats what you are doing (turning it into a provincial bunfight). You can't face it that some players are just not up to it. Its getting very predictable to blame the coach when it is plainly obvious that the problem is the prop situation.

If you took off your provincial goggles you will note that the point I've made is that McFadden & Wallace have not shown themselves to be any better than D'Arcy.

You might care to check back as to who brought up O'gara and the Lions? It wasn't me. It was the Paddy Wallace defenders who went down that route. Looks like they are a bit sorry now that Bowe part in the debacle has been highlighted.

asoreleftshoulder..not only does Sin e spank you on every argument, there was also the argument about sexton having phenomenal speed when you were made to look silly yet again

With regards to the provincial bias sh.te if it means all your lovely leinster players are being tweated badly by that big bad man from Munster and that makes you think you have made a good argument ..well good for you.

The hilarious thing is your inability to see what is clear evidence that the players we have are not as good as some people think they are. Now I know you don't like facts as they tend to make mush of your arguments but lets face it some of our much vaunted players haven't exactly been setting the wotlrld alight and given the majority are from leinster it appears that the only reasonable explanation is that its the coach.

Clearly he has turned heaslip into the least effective no.8 in the 6ns. SOB into the least effective no.7 and to many others to mention . Seriously though when Schmidt picks Darcy and BOD as the centre pairing are you going to howl for his head? What about sexton, he was zooming around all over the 6ns...really made a difference.

The fact is our players aren't that great. Without BOD and POC (still) we are very normal and we frankly don't have the players to do what England did at the start of this six nations and change their team completely.

Wales?

I agree. As knowsit said about three pages ago..give the coach a chance to change the team as gatland was given since 08 even though people were calling for his head. However at least he has the raw materials to work with, and more importantly players all playing in their preferred positions with their clubs and not shoving players into a different position than what they ae used to. And most importantly they have a few options for the front row

Feic sake lads.

If Adam Jones is injured they're pretty much in the same trouble we're in given how many games he's asked to play for the full 80. Miraculous increase in overall fitness from him btw - as he gets older he sweats less and lasts longer in faster more physical games! If there is a tablet for that, I want it!!! That isn't 'better' standard of player btw, that's infinitely better, scientifically intense dedication to player fitness, strength and stamina.

Meanwhile, back in the Ireland of the DIY coaching system, Kidney will be given his chance to change his team.. I also hope he (or the IRFU) changes some of his coaches. If Kidney isn't responsible for tactics, someone is - if Kidney is absolved of guilt by some here, his coaches aren't. Kidney knows he's had long enough, been given long enough to play it his way with the player choices he makes (nobody putting a gun to his head, he's choosing and has been choosing).

Gameplan, or players asked to play it, now changes dramatically from here on in or he just doesn't have any credibility left. I have no doubt the IRFU will give him his time, yet again, "to change the team" or the blueprint.

If I see the same 22 turn up for the first game against NZ, and the same first choice 15 picked to go on and 'redeem' themselves - there'll be no more IFs, ANDs or BUTs or "give him another chance" or "it's the players that are letting him down" or "we don't have the player base that Wales have".

He'll now have his time to change it dramatically and we'll be watching closely. I don't care how these present players now go on and perform in HC and Pro12 - we need to see Kidney making radical changes in tactics and/or players come the summer.

[quote="Sin é"]

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thats what you are doing (turning it into a provincial bunfight). You can't face it that some players are just not up to it. Its getting very predictable to blame the coach when it is plainly obvious that the problem is the prop situation.

If you took off your provincial goggles you will note that the point I've made is that McFadden & Wallace have not shown themselves to be any better than D'Arcy.

You might care to check back as to who brought up O'gara and the Lions? It wasn't me. It was the Paddy Wallace defenders who went down that route. Looks like they are a bit sorry now that Bowe part in the debacle has been highlighted.

1) The prop situation was the problem for one match it doesn't explain Kidneys failures for the last 3 years.

2) If I had my provincal goggles on I would be defending D'Arcy the same way you are defending Kidney,in fact the similarities between the 2 are scary.Both of them had their best years around 2004-2009 and both of them have shown serious signs of decline since then that are only increasing month by month.

3) The person who brought up O'gara and the Lions was not blaming O'Gara.You pointed out 2 mistakes Paddy Wallace has made in an Irish shirt as evidence he isn't up to international standard,the person who replied said that was a silly argument as "By the same token ROG should never play international rugby again after his brain fart on the Lions tour".Now quite clearly he wasn't blaming RoG for the Lions loss but you decided to twist it so it turned into RoG v Paddy Wallace.

DOD wrote:asoreleftshoulder..not only does Sin e spank you on every argument, there was also the argument about sexton having phenomenal speed when you were made to look silly yet again

With regards to the provincial bias sh.te if it means all your lovely leinster players are being tweated badly by that big bad man from Munster and that makes you think you have made a good argument ..well good for you.

The hilarious thing is your inability to see what is clear evidence that the players we have are not as good as some people think they are. Now I know you don't like facts as they tend to make mush of your arguments but lets face it some of our much vaunted players haven't exactly been setting the wotlrld alight and given the majority are from leinster it appears that the only reasonable explanation is that its the coach.

Clearly he has turned heaslip into the least effective no.8 in the 6ns. SOB into the least effective no.7 and to many others to mention . Seriously though when Schmidt picks Darcy and BOD as the centre pairing are you going to howl for his head? What about sexton, he was zooming around all over the 6ns...really made a difference.

The fact is our players aren't that great. Without BOD and POC (still) we are very normal and we frankly don't have the players to do what England did at the start of this six nations and change their team completely.

Really I was made to look silly in an argument where every poster except you and Newbie agreed I was right!You didn't happen to see the chase and tackle Sexton made at the end of the 1st half v Italy?Pretty good evidence of his pace if anyone needed to see it.

Also my biggest gripe with Kidney at the moment is his selection of D'Arcy so that's your argument that I'm provincially biased out the window.

No I won't howl for Schmidts head if he picks BoD and D'Arcy,the reason why is Schmidt gets results and has a team that no matter who plays look like they have a gamelplan.Kidney could pick you at 12 and I wouldn't complain if he got results or even had a team that looked capable of getting results.However Ireland under Kidney don't look like they have a gameplan even when BoD and PoC are playing.What's Kidneys record now it must be close to below a 50% win rate and his home record is very poor.The fact that he had an unbeaten 1st year makes these numbers even more damning of his mismanagement over the last 3 years.

Its hopeless Fly. And you know it. Admit it.
Kidney was more than given that chance. He failed. We've gone backwards. Its over for him. Lets just accept it and move on.

See Priestland play for Scarlets? Or Warburton play for Blues? They are not any better than ours individually. Same goes for so many of em. Gatland built a team of disparate young and hungry, regional players, who play brilliantly, as a unit, for their country. He gives them free reign to run riot - within a fluid game plan.

Kidney failed to do that. He has no vision. Cant think outside the box. Cant even think inside it. He is limited at this level. The whole rugby World can see it. Even the players themselves are showing signs of accepting it. They are directionless under him.

I think some people are still missing the point here. He is abusing the resources he has. He is tactically inept in the Modern game and a throwback to a different time.. Has been since the start and he will never change. Expecting him to do so now is fallacy. Even if he changes 5 or 6 players for NZ, Its too late for him. He'd still have them playing the same way. A complete waste of 3/4 years. I just hope he does blood 5 or 6 players and give the new coach a few more options to play with.

I swore Id leave this debate. I will now.

Fly I don't believe kidney is blameless there are other factors involved including the players the irfu and provincial coaches picking players in the wrong positions or relying on overseas players for certain positions.

The point is that the childish view of it being solely kidney is idiotic. Plus we do not have the world class players we like to think we have. And still no one will answer the Schmidt question if he picks Darcy and BOD.

Also if Jones gets injured they might be in trouble but they won't be as bad as we are in that situation. Plus the fact that Healy is not that great when you compare him to gethin jenkins

Yeah asls but was it just good pace or phenomenal pace. Still I suppose he showed it once in five games which is pretty good really

Gibson wrote:Its hopeless Fly. And you know it. Admit it.
Kidney was more than given that chance. He failed. We've gone backwards. Its over for him. Lets just accept it and move on.

See Priestland play for Scarlets? Or Warburton play for Blues? They are not any better than ours individually. Same goes for so many of em. Gatland built a team of disparate young and hungry, regional players, who play brilliantly, as a unit, for their country.

Kidney failed to do that. He has no vision. Cant think outside the box. Cant even think inside it. He is limited at this level. The whole rugby World can see it. Even the players themselves are showing signs of accepting it. They are directionless under him.

I think some people are missing the point here. He is abusing the resources he has. Has been since the start and he will never change. Expecting him to do so now is fallacy. Even if he changes 5 or 6 players for NZ, Its too late for him. He'd still have them playing the same way. A complete waste of 3/4 years. I just hope he does blood 5 or 6 players and give the new coach a few more options to play with.

I swore Id leave this debate. I will now.

I'm saying I am pretty certain the IRFU will give him yet another chance, Gibbo. Not my call unfortunately. He'll get to stay until certainly after the NZ tour. I think almost the same 15 as started this 6N will run out for the frist game in NZ (O'Driscoll back at 13). So I'm not holding my breath that changes will come - but they will keep him; they will give him his newest chance just as I think he'll give the same collection of players their seasonal once-more chance to 'redeem' themselves.

I agree Fly. They have no choice. Too short a time-frame now. But they had better be sounding out, or at least drawing up a short-list for a replacement coach now. Or they are even more culpable than he is.

I wait for the day he leaves and will pick up the baton again then.

Gibbo out.

[quote="asoreleftshoulder"][quote="Sin é"]

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thats what you are doing (turning it into a provincial bunfight). You can't face it that some players are just not up to it. Its getting very predictable to blame the coach when it is plainly obvious that the problem is the prop situation.

If you took off your provincial goggles you will note that the point I've made is that McFadden & Wallace have not shown themselves to be any better than D'Arcy.

You might care to check back as to who brought up O'gara and the Lions? It wasn't me. It was the Paddy Wallace defenders who went down that route. Looks like they are a bit sorry now that Bowe part in the debacle has been highlighted.

1) The prop situation was the problem for one match it doesn't explain Kidneys failures for the last 3 years. Ireland won the 6Ns 3 years ago. Healy has been learning his trade over the last couple of years has also made a difference. Babysitting Sexton has taken up a fair bit of time as well.

Just for the record - Gatland is in the job 18 months longer than Kidney and Wales have been no better than 4th in the 6Ns over the last couple of years after their initial success.


2) If I had my provincal goggles on I would be defending D'Arcy the same way you are defending Kidney,in fact the similarities between the 2 are scary.Both of them had their best years around 2004-2009 and both of them have shown serious signs of decline since then that are only increasing month by month.

Can you not get the fact that D'Arcy is the best of a bad lot. McFadden & Wallace are not up to it. I think that Luke Fitz is the long term solution at 12. At least he is international standard and can run a support line.

3) The person who brought up O'gara and the Lions was not blaming O'Gara.You pointed out 2 mistakes Paddy Wallace has made in an Irish shirt as evidence he isn't up to international standard,the person who replied said that was a silly argument as "By the same token ROG should never play international rugby again after his brain fart on the Lions tour".Now quite clearly he wasn't blaming RoG for the Lions loss but you decided to twist it so it turned into RoG v Paddy Wallace.

And I pointed out that the difference between them is that ROG has over 100 international games, he had a knock on the head and Bowe ignored instructions - completely different to what Paddy Wallace did who made two major mistakes in the few games he has played.

Feic sake Sin

SecretFly wrote:

Gibson wrote:Its hopeless Fly. And you know it. Admit it.
Kidney was more than given that chance. He failed. We've gone backwards. Its over for him. Lets just accept it and move on.

See Priestland play for Scarlets? Or Warburton play for Blues? They are not any better than ours individually. Same goes for so many of em. Gatland built a team of disparate young and hungry, regional players, who play brilliantly, as a unit, for their country.

Kidney failed to do that. He has no vision. Cant think outside the box. Cant even think inside it. He is limited at this level. The whole rugby World can see it. Even the players themselves are showing signs of accepting it. They are directionless under him.

I think some people are missing the point here. He is abusing the resources he has. Has been since the start and he will never change. Expecting him to do so now is fallacy. Even if he changes 5 or 6 players for NZ, Its too late for him. He'd still have them playing the same way. A complete waste of 3/4 years. I just hope he does blood 5 or 6 players and give the new coach a few more options to play with.

I swore Id leave this debate. I will now.

I'm saying I am pretty certain the IRFU will give him yet another chance, Gibbo. Not my call unfortunately. He'll get to stay until certainly after the NZ tour. I think almost the same 15 as started this 6N will run out for the frist game in NZ (O'Driscoll back at 13). So I'm not holding my breath that changes will come - but they will keep him; they will give him his newest chance just as I think he'll give the same collection of players their seasonal once-more chance to 'redeem' themselves.

So, would you have sacked gatland this time last year when Wales came 4th last year (winning against Ireland with an illegal try)?

And who would you have on the bench to cover for Mike Ross? Jamie Hagan?

Sin é wrote:Can you not get the fact that D'Arcy is the best of a bad lot. McFadden & Wallace are not up to it. I think that Luke Fitz is the long term solution at 12. At least he is international standard and can run a support line.[/b]
[/b]

That's your opinion Sin é. I'm afraid there is nothing factual about an opinion. Sometimes we agree with them, other times we disagree, but the opinion that D'arcy is best of a bad lot is opinion not fact. What D'arcy certainly is is the only one of the 'lot' that keeps getting the call, keeps getting the chances to prove himself, keeps getting the gametime to hopefully reset his timeclock to a younger age (something of an impossibility!)

If we can do without O'Driscoll because needs must, then we can certainly chance giving another player a shot at 12 - for more than minutes per game or one game per season! You prove yourself daily at International - D'Arcy is moving down his career graph. There is no stopping that drift - the results we are achieving whilst he drifts down his graph are not worth sustaining him in the position. If pain is coming our way, let pain be turned to something positive and allow a new player in to learn at the coalface of real International competition. Whatever player we choose will be going up his career hill - experience, even bad ones, is vital to the learning curve as you go up.

Sin é wrote:
So, would you have sacked gatland this time last year when Wales came 4th last year (winning against Ireland with an illegal try)?

Many Welsh posters were thinking about it! That's what you do when things aren't working. You question the leader. You don't stand in a big field and ask the question of the Gods "What's wrong with our team?". You say "Who the hell is leading that side? What's he doing wrong?" That's a real-world response.

Now Gatland? You think all coaching follows the same pattern? You think that just because Gatland learned from his errors and his player choice mistakes, because he challenged his players to get fitter, stronger, faster - that Kidney is naturally about to follow suit - that he has done his time in the wilderness and the coaching manual says it's time for the big turnaround?

So the improvements should be starting to come through from early next year? That's when Kidney plans to do his Gatland?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Can you not get the fact that D'Arcy is the best of a bad lot. McFadden & Wallace are not up to it. I think that Luke Fitz is the long term solution at 12. At least he is international standard and can run a support line.[/b]
[/b]

That's your opinion Sin é. I'm afraid there is nothing factual about an opinion. Sometimes we agree with them, other times we disagree, but the opinion that D'arcy is best of a bad lot is opinion not fact. What D'arcy certainly is is the only one of the 'lot' that keeps getting the call, keeps getting the chances to prove himself, keeps getting the gametime to hopefully reset his timeclock to a younger age (something of an impossibility!)

If we can do without O'Driscoll because needs must, then we can certainly chance giving another player a shot at 12 - for more than minutes per game or one game per season! You prove yourself daily at International - D'Arcy is moving down his career graph. There is no stopping that drift - the results we are achieving whilst he drifts down his graph are not worth sustaining him in the position. If pain is coming our way, let pain be turned to something positive and allow a new player in to learn at the coalface of real International competition. Whatever player we choose will be going up his career hill - experience, even bad ones, is vital to the learning curve as you go up.

I've seen enough of Paddy Wallace and Fergus Mcfadden to know they are not international class centres. D'arcy maybe going downhill, but at least he was international class at some stage in his career, the others have only been stop gap.

D'arcy may as well be the stop gap (until Fitz or who ever else comes along) as Wallace or Mcfadden (who started against wales).

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So, would you have sacked gatland this time last year when Wales came 4th last year (winning against Ireland with an illegal try)?

Many Welsh posters were thinking about it! That's what you do when things aren't working. You question the leader. You don't stand in a big field and ask the question of the Gods "What's wrong with our team?". You say "Who the hell is leading that side? What's he doing wrong?" That's a real-world response.

Now Gatland? You think all coaching follows the same pattern? You think that just because Gatland learned from his errors and his player choice mistakes, because he challenged his players to get fitter, stronger, faster - that Kidney is naturally about to follow suit - that he has done his time in the wilderness and the coaching manual says it's time for the big turnaround?

So the improvements should be starting to come through from early next year? That's when Kidney plans to do his Gatland?

Nothing to do with Gatland's coaching. He was lucky that a few good young ones came along at the same time and don't forget he had a few lucky calls as well. Wales have still not managed to beat a SH team in his tenure.

sin e
wales beat australia under gatland.

Sin é wrote:
I've seen enough of Paddy Wallace and Fergus Mcfadden to know they are not international class centres. D'arcy maybe going downhill, but at least he was international class at some stage in his career, the others have only been stop gap.

D'arcy may as well be the stop gap (until Fitz or who ever else comes along) as Wallace or Mcfadden (who started against wales).

D'arcy became International class, he wasn't born that way. He became it in his world, with the opposition he was encountering and being given the opportunity to be so. The Welsh players aren't exctly setting the world on fire with their performances at regional level. But that's not where Gatland is proving them - he's bypassing the need for league form or reputation and allowing the players to use International to prove their worth, and giving them the tools (fitness and coaching) to achieve that.

The world has moved on, D'arcy needs replacing and we need to start looking at alternatives. To say you might as well hold onto him as stop-gap rather than giving a young player valuable time to work up to speed is just not exactly the most pro-active theory of team development I've come across.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So, would you have sacked gatland this time last year when Wales came 4th last year (winning against Ireland with an illegal try)?

Many Welsh posters were thinking about it! That's what you do when things aren't working. You question the leader. You don't stand in a big field and ask the question of the Gods "What's wrong with our team?". You say "Who the hell is leading that side? What's he doing wrong?" That's a real-world response.

Now Gatland? You think all coaching follows the same pattern? You think that just because Gatland learned from his errors and his player choice mistakes, because he challenged his players to get fitter, stronger, faster - that Kidney is naturally about to follow suit - that he has done his time in the wilderness and the coaching manual says it's time for the big turnaround?

So the improvements should be starting to come through from early next year? That's when Kidney plans to do his Gatland?

Nothing to do with Gatland's coaching. He was lucky that a few good young ones came along at the same time and don't forget he had a few lucky calls as well. Wales have still not managed to beat a SH team in his tenure.

Can't have it both ways Sin é. Would it have been right to sack Gatland at the end of last year or not? You first seem to suggest sacking him last year would have proven rash given what happened at the WC and this 6N. Then I said Gatland shouldn't be compared to Kidney; just because Gatland turned things around it doesn't mean Kidney is about to do the same. You then say it wasn't about Gatland's ability, it's that he got lucky.

He was either a coach that came good or he's a lucky guy who happened to fall on good players just when he needed them. None of it still bears a relationship to what's happening in Ireland. We're not obligated to have the patience to wait for Kidney to turn things around himself - OR - to wait for him to hit on a rich vein of luck.

What are people looking for in a new Irish coach?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I've seen enough of Paddy Wallace and Fergus Mcfadden to know they are not international class centres. D'arcy maybe going downhill, but at least he was international class at some stage in his career, the others have only been stop gap.

D'arcy may as well be the stop gap (until Fitz or who ever else comes along) as Wallace or Mcfadden (who started against wales).

D'arcy became International class, he wasn't born that way. He became it in his world, with the opposition he was encountering and being given the opportunity to be so. The Welsh players aren't exctly setting the world on fire with their performances at regional level. But that's not where Gatland is proving them - he's bypassing the need for league form or reputation and allowing the players to use International to prove their worth, and giving them the tools (fitness and coaching) to achieve that.

The world has moved on, D'arcy needs replacing and we need to start looking at alternatives. To say you might as well hold onto him as stop-gap rather than giving a young player valuable time to work up to speed is just not exactly the most pro-active theory of team development I've come across.

Did I claim D'Arcy was born an international (though he was picked by Gatland to tour SA when he was due to do his Leaving Cert).

Paddy Wallace & Fergus McFadden have been given chances to grow into internationals. They haven't done it to date.

Gatland (like Kidney) tried out a few players in the world cup warm-up games. the players that Gatland tried, worked out, the ones that Kidney tried (Wallace & McFadden) didn't, though Donncha Ryan & Murray proved him right.

Were you one of the ones annoyed about Murray being ahead of Reddan & Boss

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So, would you have sacked gatland this time last year when Wales came 4th last year (winning against Ireland with an illegal try)?

Many Welsh posters were thinking about it! That's what you do when things aren't working. You question the leader. You don't stand in a big field and ask the question of the Gods "What's wrong with our team?". You say "Who the hell is leading that side? What's he doing wrong?" That's a real-world response.

Now Gatland? You think all coaching follows the same pattern? You think that just because Gatland learned from his errors and his player choice mistakes, because he challenged his players to get fitter, stronger, faster - that Kidney is naturally about to follow suit - that he has done his time in the wilderness and the coaching manual says it's time for the big turnaround?

So the improvements should be starting to come through from early next year? That's when Kidney plans to do his Gatland?

Nothing to do with Gatland's coaching. He was lucky that a few good young ones came along at the same time and don't forget he had a few lucky calls as well. Wales have still not managed to beat a SH team in his tenure.

Can't have it both ways Sin é. Would it have been right to sack Gatland at the end of last year or not? You first seem to suggest sacking him last year would have proven rash given what happened at the WC and this 6N. Then I said Gatland shouldn't be compared to Kidney; just because Gatland turned things around it doesn't mean Kidney is about to do the same. You then say it wasn't about Gatland's ability, it's that he got lucky.

He was either a coach that came good or he's a lucky guy who happened to fall on good players just when he needed them. None of it still bears a relationship to what's happening in Ireland. We're not obligated to have the patience to wait for Kidney to turn things around himself - OR - to wait for him to hit on a rich vein of luck.

Its not about having it both ways. IMO, Gatland was lucky that a group of players came along and took their chances. I think Kidney has been unlucky with some of the injuries - for instance, david wallace for the world cup and BOD on one wing. POC was a major loss yesterday. Didn't like to see how Ireland capitulated yesterday without him.

red_stag wrote:What are people looking for in a new Irish coach?

Hope.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

I could have taken you up wrong but are you seriously blaming tommy Bowe for ROG taking out Du Preez in the air during the 2nd lions test?

ROG signalled to Bowe to chase and he didn't bother so he had to do it himself.

Right, i dont know what the Lions have to do with this discussion about Kidney but for what its worth, Sin is bang on here. You clearly see ROG telling Bowe that he was going for the Garryowen and Bowe runs the other way . I am not blaming anyone because it was the wrong option to take but i have no idea why Bowe went the other way. ROG looked very dazed after his head nock as well which may explain the option he took.

Back on topic. I have been a fan of Kidney for many years and defended him but its becomming more and more clear that his style does not match that of the players he has available. This does not make him a bad manager, just not the correct manager for Ireland. I would hazard a guess that a coach like John Kirwan would be able to get more out of Ireland than Kidnay can because he coaches in the style that the Irish players are more used too and want to play.

Interesting that nobody has answered dod regards Schmidt picking darcy and bod for Leinster....

The reason is its a lazy excuse to blame deccie! Yes we all could have done one or two things differently but fact is too many players are not performing. Heaslip sob doc bowe reddan /tol Trimble. The fact that Ross and Healy get mangled in the scrum! Sexton is mr average and is not controlling the games

These are not the Ireland coaches fault

I will restate some of my earlier points because I feel they are relevant. The new IRFU NIQ limitations are a step in the right direction but willl ultimatly cause players to ask for unrealistic wages because they are reluctant to move, and they know the club wanting to buy them havnt much choice.

Our lack of depth stems from some provinces being top heavy in the talent for specific positions. Look at O'Brien not playing 8. They force him into another position effectivly weakening depth whilst up at ulster we have an NIQ 8. Same with scrum-halfs at Munster and Leinster only getting a handful of games each whilst Ulster have an NIQ. I'm sure there are many more examples.

Does any other country switch players around positionally for a short term advantage as much as Ireland? And in doing so reduce depth in one area and prevent young talent having a chance in another area? I think personally the IRFU needs to provide big incentives for higher class players to move to Connacht, or a province who are weak in that positional area. The higher tier of irish players all need to be practicing their trade week in week out, not warming benches. Clubs, understandably will do whatever it takes for club success, the IRFU have the power to improve the talent distribution which is the only way Ireland will become a world force.

And forcing a quota of Paddy Wallace at 10 when he's actually a 12 is an absolute idiotic way to run a national team!

Ulster have repeatedly tried to sign forwards from the other provinces but the truth is the clubs want to keep players as backups who deserve to be starting for someone. And the players themselves would prefer a few starts with their club than to be a nailed on starter for another club. This needs addressed.

O'Leary was deemed to be good enough to be brought on in that match with only six starts for his club this season. (Did he have an injury? I Cant remember). But you see my point.
DOC had 6 club starts, compared with Ryans 10, and Tuohys 17. (Again, there may have been injury I'm unaware of.)

How many of Englands players are second choice at their clubs I wonder.

DOD wrote:Its getting really bad now the lions afficionados are bringing up ROG and the tour to S A.

I wonder when the leinster crowd will start calling for Schmidt to be replaced when he picks Darcy at ic for the next HC or brings back BOD at oc. Bet that will be seen as real.progress.

As for the Ulster brigade its clear there players are all brilliant (at understanding Afrikaans that is).

Of course the Lions tour is not relevant but neither is claiming that a couple of incidence shows why a player should not be considered. I was merely pointing out the absurdity of Sin e arguement.

Which one of us is claiming Ulster palyers all brilliant

As for the second row issue. The whole point is Ryan should have been starting for all 6N matches. Tuohy should have been starting as soon as POC got injured. The logic of not picking players through inexperience is that you stick with players who are well past their sell by date because the replacements are too inexperienced.

That is exactly what has happened with DOC and D'Arcy.

Jesus christ lads. Talk about provincial groundhog day. Feic up would ye?

red_stag wrote:What are people looking for in a new Irish coach?

- From outside Ireland
- Head Coach who is an experienced backs coach making the selection calls.
- Strong personality/winner

Someone like Pat Lam or Wayne Smith would be ideal.

Provincial Bias ? - well above I posted my strongest Ireland team and it had 3 current Ulster players in it - hardly a wave of Provincial bias.

I also mentioned that I do not think Henry, Marshall ever or Macklin, for at least 2/3 years, are good enough. I used this to highlight the fact that a number of players not up to scratch are being banded about as possible players when they are not good enough. Hardly provincial bias.

At no point have I claimed Wallace is the answer to 12, I dont think he is but I do think Wallace, McFadden and Sexton are all better alternatives than D'Arcy who looks a busted flush to me.

Again this is twisted into provincial bias.
Some people see things that aren't there.

Was not addressing you Geoff. You are a feeder, not a troll. The fuel to Sin Es fire if you will.

By the way, I agree with you. You are 100% correct on D'Arcy. I'm just sick of these stupid circular arguments. Massive waste of everyones time and energy.

Understood Notch it was Sin e my post was primarily referring too.

By claiming Wallace is better now than D'Arcy or Tuohy is better than DOC you are accused of bias.

My post was just to illustrate that in many other ways that is not a claim that can be made.

My first choice 2nd row is POC and Ryan and my preferred choice at 12 is BOD.

Mind you I am probably biased in claiming Cave at 13 is part of my best XV.

I think O'Driscoll with McFadden as reserve is fast becoming our best option at 12 given how impoverished we currently are there.

And it's worth bearing in mind both Wallace and D'Arcy are much better players for their provinces not just because provincial rugby is easier, but because they have players running support lines which actually gives them options.

Ireland players don't have options in possession.

Ulster boys talking a lot of sense here.

(You aint seen me roysh?)

Cave hasn't had a run there so I would like to see him get a few games and start the Baa-Baas one. Earls did a very good job there in my opinion.

Notch, I'm not Deccies biggest fan by any means, but a new coach does not solve the problems I outlined above.

How many Welsh / French / English players this tournament are number 2 at their clubs?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/kidney-calls-for-greater-focus-on-home-talent-3054224.html

You have to admit the failings of the talent distribution among the provinces.

Also, how does playing BOD at 12 actually help us for the future. that is EXACTLY the kind of attitude that has got us into the state we were in on Saturday.

We need each player who plays for Ireland to be a player who does a job in THAT POSITION week in week out provincially.

Agreed Earls did do well but I would like to see Cave and 13 and Earls on the wing instead of Trimble.

clivemcl wrote:We need each player who plays for Ireland to be a player who does a job in THAT POSITION week in week out provincially.

We have two Irish players who start week in week out for their provinces and neither are good enough so...