So who's going to NZ for Ireland in June

After last Saturday's fiasco, the thoughts of a three-test tour against NZ seems a pretty frightening prospect. But we're going and we assume that DK and his coaching team will be there as well. So given what's happened the season (and ok I know there are a few big HC games and the Barbarians coming up that might change things), given DK's conservatism when it comes making changes, the argument whether a NZ tour is the place to blood new players, the argument whether players on their way out or soon to retire should be left behind, then who should be on the plane. I'm assuming a 35-player panel (like the Lions) split 19-16 between forwards and backs - maybe the panel will be smaller but for this exercise I'm assuming 35

The choices I think are the following (assuming current injured (BOD, Cullen etc) are fit and get some game time ahead of tour

15 - R Kearney, Jones, Hurley, Duffy
14/11 - Fitzgerald, D Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Trimble
12/13 - Darcy, McFadden, O'Driscoll, O'Malley, Barnes, Earls, Downey, Cave, Spence, Wallace
10 - Sexton, Madigan, Keatley, O'Gara
9 - Boss, Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall
8/7/6 - Heaslip, Jennings, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Dom Ryan, O'Brien, Coughlan, Leamy, O'Mahoney, Wilson, Ferris, Henry, Muldoon
4/5 - Cullen, Toner, Nagle, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy
1/3 - Ross, Hagan, McGrath, Archer, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson, Court, McAllister
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

So from all that, here is my 35

15 - R Kearney, Jones
14/11 - Fitzgerald, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Earls, Spence, Downey
10 - Sexton, Madigan
9 - Murray, Reddan, Marshall
8/7/6 - O'Brien, Ferris, O'Mahoney, Coughlan, Henry, Wilson
5/4 - O'Connell, Cullen, Toner, Ryan, Tuohy
1/3 - Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

so that's it - no Darcy, O'Gara or Heaslip - Darcy and Heaslip because of sh1te form in 6N - how Stephen Jones had Heaslip as his best 8 in the 6N i can't fathom since he was outplayed by every other 8. Darcy gone because he's a pale shadow of what he was and his time has come, ROG, not because he's played badly but because he's 35 or so and we need to start looking at his successor - now.

New blood in Zebo, Madigan, Jones, Spence, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Wilson. Most controversial choices - Downey at 12 (we need to at least try a bash merchant since everybody else seems to be), Wilson because I think he's been unfairly penalised for playing outside Ireland (and he's back next year anyway)

Still frightening light in the front row but until we discover a Romanian/Georgian/Samon/Tongan/Kiwi/Aus prop who is IQ we're in deep sh1t

Views? Well constructive ones anyway!

Hopefully Fionn Carr will get a go, as he is the best counter attacker in Ireland and probably the fastest winger out of the lot.

Heard Oleary signed for LI. That true?

Hope they pick Marshal instead of him anyway.

Yep confirmed by LI than TOL has signed a 3-year contract, irrespective of where he plays agree Marshall should be picked ahead of him

Do you think Kidney would leave ROG behind?

Is ROG not his little security blanket?

What games are Ireland playing apart from the tests? That's the place to blood a few youngsters initially I think as they will still be tough encounters.

I reckon ROG should definitely not be picked. Bring Madigan!!

6 Props: Paddy McAllister, Cian Healy, Tom Court, Mike Ross, John Andress, Jamie Hagan

3 Hookers: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry

4 Second Rows: Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner

6 Backrows: Stephen Ferris, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip, Chris Henry, David Wallace

3 Scrumhalves: Eoin Reddan, Conor Murray, Paul Marshal

3 Flyhalves: Ian Madigan, Jonathan Sexton, Ronan O'Gara

4 Centres: Brian O'Driscoll, Fergus McFadden, Keith Earls, Darren Cave

4 Wingers: Tommy Bowe, Simon Zebo, Luke Fitzgerald, Andrew Trimble

2 Fullbacks: Rob Kearney, Felix Jones

Thats my squad of 35 anyway. I think it would do very well.

I've never seen Roger Wilson have a bad game - Why is he not on your radar

Why would anyone not bring O'Gara - very strange.

I'd like to see all three of them go and at some stage see:

10 Madigan
12 Sexton

However anyone who says O'Gara "definitely" shouldnt be picked is bonkers. He is still playing well. He isn't first choice for Ireland anymore but is still handy to have in the squad.

A few variations from my selection Stag, but none I'd have any great problem with

Your selection of Coughlan is an interesting one. Just think its a bit late to be giving him a debute. I also think Denis Hurley would be very very close to travel ahead of Jones. He has had an excellent season but Jones is such a talented player.

Gave a lot of thought to Denis Hurley and agree he's had a v good season, but think Jones offers that little bit more

If it is a 35 man squad I would look at

Ross, Healy, McAllister, Court, Hagan
Best, Cronin, Sherry
POC, Ryan, Tuohy, Toner
Ferris, POM, O'Brien, Henry, Heaslip,
Murray, Marshall, Reddan
Sexton, Madigan
BOD, Cave, Wallace, Griffen, McFadden, O'Malley
Fitz, Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Zebo/Gilroy
Kearney, Jones

No ROG, D'arcy, DOC.

Top heavy with centres I know especially if we consider earls there too. Only reason is include wallace is as an extra 10 option but wouldn't be averse to leaving him behind for Spence or Jackson possibly.

Mcallister. Healy
Best Cronin
Ross Hagan
POC. Ryan
Toner Tuohy
Ferris. O'Brien
POM. Henry
O'Brien. Heaslip
Murray. Marshall
Sexton. Sexton
Earls Trimble
Bod. McFadden
Cave. Griffen/O'Malley
Fitz. Bowe
Jones. Kearney

Two fairly forward thinking teams there

I have to say I feel very strongly about Sexton as the future for the Irish #12 shirt.

Madigan looks a talent but we need a better goal kicker in the team.

ROG-Sexton has worked so well I feel and I believe we are missing a trick by not trying it from the start of a match.

The last I saw Denis Hurley he got outpaced by the Aironi 7. No way should he go ahead of jones who has masses of potential

RubyGuby wrote:Toner isn't and never will be a competent international player

Would have agreed with you last year and still agree that he's not good enough yet but his rate of improvement this year means I won't write him off.
That said I don't think he's ever gonna be top class or anything.

Stand - you got way too many centres I feel. Also surely Ulster fans more than most should know Paddy Wallace isnt a 10.

I also think you need another prop.

With 6 props and 2 hookers it will make for excellent training sessions of three full front row units .

brennomac wrote:Still frightening light in the front row but until we discover a Romanian/Georgian/Samon/Tongan/Kiwi/Aus prop who is IQ we're in deep sh1t

If you require Australian props to help you out you must have surely reached rock bottom!!!

That team isn't shabby by the way. Confidence plays a part - how much did that loss to Wales hurt Ireland mentally? If they had beat Wales, would they have let France back in?

If Ireland get caned in the first test it will be 3-0. Realistically, their best chance of getting the monkey off their backs is a win in the first test.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Toner isn't and never will be a competent international player

Would have agreed with you last year and still agree that he's not good enough yet but his rate of improvement this year means I won't write him off.
That said I don't think he's ever gonna be top class or anything.

Maybe he'll become a Charteris as there are similarities at the same stage - You just need some beef there

red_stag wrote:Why would anyone not bring O'Gara - very strange.

I'd like to see all three of them go and at some stage see:

10 Madigan
12 Sexton

However anyone who says O'Gara "definitely" shouldnt be picked is bonkers. He is still playing well. He isn't first choice for Ireland anymore but is still handy to have in the squad.

Well you know my views about ROG touring stag

I have been screaming for some time that i would like to see a 10 Madigan 12 Sexton combination though

Also hows this for a team to play the BaaBaas:

McAllister, Cronin, Hagan
Ryan, Toner
O'Mahony, O'Brien, Henry
Reddan, Madigan
Sexton, Cave
Zebo, Jones, Fitzgerald

16 Sherry, 17 Court, 18 Andress, 19 Tuohy, 20 D.Wallace, 21 Marshall, 22 McFadden

Stag

We need centres and props. No issue ditching Wallace mind you. I would be reluctant to ditch the younger ones.

I also dont think that Davey Wallace should go. Love the guy to bits but his time is up.

But is it really much use having O'Malley AND Griffin AND Cave especially when you have another three players who have been capped at 13 (O'Driscoll, McFadden and Earls) in your squad.

You can't develop everyone. Tough choices have to be made and I dont see there is room for all of them. Develop Cave. The others can use Ireland A to develop.

Wouldn't disagree. Some part of me thinks that as much as everyone has mentioned bod deserving a last chance to beat NZ I think Wallace and ROG could fall into that category a well though. The only reason I didn't include them is that they aren't first choice anymore.

In terms of this tour we need ferris, Heaslip, sexton, Kearney, Bowe to really stand up and be leaders and help the youngsters. BOD and POC won't be around to be the figureheads forever.

eirebilly wrote:I also dont think that Davey Wallace should go. Love the guy to bits but his time is up.

Yea I wont mind if he doesnt go. I just wish Dom Ryan had a better season. To me he hasnt earned the right to represent Ireland. I would have Shane Jennings and Niall Ronan as the next in line 7s.

Standulstermen wrote:
In terms of this tour we need ferris, Heaslip, sexton, Kearney, Bowe to really stand up and be leaders and help the youngsters. BOD and POC won't be around to be the figureheads forever.

Agree entirely.

Nothing to be gained by bringing Roggles. Time to call it a day.

Leinsterbaby - do you actually think that bringing him achieves nothing?

Sadly i agree that ROG should stay at home. Fantastic player but it is getting to the point where Ireland have to leave him out.

Is that based on the fact that he wont be around for 2015 or based on the here and now.

aahhh stag, i knew you would drag that out

That factor does play heavily on my mind. This is the perfect time to get some new guys in. Go with Sexton and Madigan as the 10's, they are the future

I have both Sexton and Madigan on my tour list and would like all three of them to get gametime. Sexton as the primary 10 and also get gametime at 12. Madigan in the Barbarians game and ROG to start a match against NZ.

The future alone is not enough. Its what separates Darcy and O'Callaghan from ROG.

eirebilly wrote:

red_stag wrote:Why would anyone not bring O'Gara - very strange.

I'd like to see all three of them go and at some stage see:

10 Madigan
12 Sexton

However anyone who says O'Gara "definitely" shouldnt be picked is bonkers. He is still playing well. He isn't first choice for Ireland anymore but is still handy to have in the squad.

Well you know my views about ROG touring stag

I have been screaming for some time that i would like to see a 10 Madigan 12 Sexton combination though

To date it seems there's almost a competition between who ROG (10 lost) and Stephen Jones (14 ) as to who the worst 10 to come here recently has been. ROG is ahead with his last tour where from memory he was so bad the crowd were laughing. Maybe good in NH circles but here its just not cricket.
2 years on? Well I wouldn't bring him.

The longer Ireland pick these aging players the less chance there will be to bring youngsters into the fold and get them valuable international experience.

Sexton is more than capable now of having the full backing to start and finish matches i feel.

What is to gain by taking ROG?

Yeah not meaning to be mean- and certainly not doubting his CV- and obviously he gets put under a lot of pressure but he has a dislike to playing us. The AB's know it and if he comes and features he'll be the highest prio target after the scrum.

He's just predictable and if his scrum is going backwards they might need more than a boot to save them. Sexton offers more options.

Same debate went on here in 2010.

Its just that i feel against the AB's, ROG's defence is not strong enough and he will be exposed. He normally is exposed against teams like the AB's.

Yes I suppose what could be gained is if Ireland have a chance to slot a winning penalty in the dying minutes O'Gara would be the one to kick it under pressure and the first test over the AB's would be won.

After being binned in 2010 for that ridiculous hold back of Jayne he did spark them into life a little with the 3 tries near the end.

I guess its just whether you want long term development or short term gain. Risk versus investment.

Lot of thinking will be going on with that one I'll bet.

Invest invest invest. Thats my way of looking at things

I think I agree with Stag's squad. Take Heaslip and O'Gara, doesn't mean they'll make the 22 though, unless you are thread bare by the third test this way you have some experienced guys to bring in. But in the centre's I'm not sure about McFadden as he was shown to be a poor international player in the 6 Nations and O'Driscoll as I think his time is up for Ireland now. Perhaps look at Downey, with Earls outside him. The wingers look very potent even the ones behind your starters Bowe and Trimble .

I'm not sure McFadden is the answer Morgan but given he only got 1 game in a vastly under performing Ireland team in a position which isn't his best I don't think we can write him off. I don't think he will make it but it's harsh to see he was shown up

Given the result in England I think the sideline/backroom/not considered players in all departments save O'Driscoll's and O'Connell's (they'll be going if fit - guaranteed) will now see the coming weeks of Pro12 and HC as their real platform to put their hand up for inclusion.

I don't really think Kidney has the leisure anymore to just close his eyes to what happens at Provincial level and ignore it as he chooses his touring group and prospective first 15 from memories of who they were last time they all met up.

Serious pressure is now on him - from the media, from the fans and from his bosses, the IRFU. McFadden hasn't had nearly enough time to be proven unworthy of an International shirt - he and many others will see the coming weeks as their marker. If lessons are being learned then performances from here on in won't be ignored.

eirebilly wrote:

What is to gain by taking ROG?

A chance to beat the All Blacks?? If hes good enough bring him. The problem with Darcy and DOC is they arent good enough anymore not that theyre too old.

red_stag wrote:Leinsterbaby - do you actually think that bringing him achieves nothing?

Yeah I do. Whats the point? If this years six nations tought us anything its time to weed out the dinos. England and Wales have put faith in the young guns and it has paid off. Dont think Dricos place should even be safe. Look at what a good job Earls has done when given the chance and 13 when he had so many doubters.

Time to stop being so conservative and put faith in good young players.

You Irish guys are miles ahead of us,If we had to pick the All Blacks at the moment and especially going on form we could only muster up about half a team.

aucklandlaurie wrote: You Irish guys are miles ahead of us,If we had to pick the All Blacks at the moment and especially going on form we could only muster up about half a team.

And theyd still play us off the park!

laurie;

Dagg
Gear/Maitland
Smith
Nonu/Sonny Bill
Guildford
DC?
?
Read
McCaw
?
Whitelock
?
Franks
?
Franks

The All Blacks shouldn't be far off their team that ended the world cup. With some retirees though and lack of S15 spectating I am struggling to list players in certain positions. I would imagine a few new caps against Ireland though.

I was just thinking on the weekend that England has probably done Ireland the biggest favour possible,with 3 months to go before coming down here.

eirebilly wrote:Its just that i feel against the AB's, ROG's defence is not strong enough and he will be exposed. He normally is exposed against teams like the AB's.

I second that. The game has changed. What do all the great young OHs, Lambie, Farrell, Sexton etc. have in common:

Ferocious defense, plus all round skills.

ROG is too predictable and not pysical enough to cut it v the AB plus given that we probably will get hammered anyway based on the Enland match we may as well shake the squad up and get some younger guys some game time. We have plently off talented youngsters on this island. Lets start using them and putting faith in them.

I know ROG is a cult figure to some but its time to look at other options.

I dont understand why Kearney doesnt take more kicks at goal ala 1/2p. He used to be an incredible goal kicker. Might take some pressure off Sexton.