So who's going to NZ for Ireland in June

First topic message reminder :

After last Saturday's fiasco, the thoughts of a three-test tour against NZ seems a pretty frightening prospect. But we're going and we assume that DK and his coaching team will be there as well. So given what's happened the season (and ok I know there are a few big HC games and the Barbarians coming up that might change things), given DK's conservatism when it comes making changes, the argument whether a NZ tour is the place to blood new players, the argument whether players on their way out or soon to retire should be left behind, then who should be on the plane. I'm assuming a 35-player panel (like the Lions) split 19-16 between forwards and backs - maybe the panel will be smaller but for this exercise I'm assuming 35

The choices I think are the following (assuming current injured (BOD, Cullen etc) are fit and get some game time ahead of tour

15 - R Kearney, Jones, Hurley, Duffy
14/11 - Fitzgerald, D Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Trimble
12/13 - Darcy, McFadden, O'Driscoll, O'Malley, Barnes, Earls, Downey, Cave, Spence, Wallace
10 - Sexton, Madigan, Keatley, O'Gara
9 - Boss, Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall
8/7/6 - Heaslip, Jennings, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Dom Ryan, O'Brien, Coughlan, Leamy, O'Mahoney, Wilson, Ferris, Henry, Muldoon
4/5 - Cullen, Toner, Nagle, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy
1/3 - Ross, Hagan, McGrath, Archer, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson, Court, McAllister
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

So from all that, here is my 35

15 - R Kearney, Jones
14/11 - Fitzgerald, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Earls, Spence, Downey
10 - Sexton, Madigan
9 - Murray, Reddan, Marshall
8/7/6 - O'Brien, Ferris, O'Mahoney, Coughlan, Henry, Wilson
5/4 - O'Connell, Cullen, Toner, Ryan, Tuohy
1/3 - Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

so that's it - no Darcy, O'Gara or Heaslip - Darcy and Heaslip because of sh1te form in 6N - how Stephen Jones had Heaslip as his best 8 in the 6N i can't fathom since he was outplayed by every other 8. Darcy gone because he's a pale shadow of what he was and his time has come, ROG, not because he's played badly but because he's 35 or so and we need to start looking at his successor - now.

New blood in Zebo, Madigan, Jones, Spence, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Wilson. Most controversial choices - Downey at 12 (we need to at least try a bash merchant since everybody else seems to be), Wilson because I think he's been unfairly penalised for playing outside Ireland (and he's back next year anyway)

Still frightening light in the front row but until we discover a Romanian/Georgian/Samon/Tongan/Kiwi/Aus prop who is IQ we're in deep sh1t

Views? Well constructive ones anyway!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Using that logic he doesn't rate Ryan or Ferris either.

Not as highly as POC or BOD.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Using that logic he doesn't rate Ryan or Ferris either.

Not as highly as POC or BOD.

Why the need to clarify that statement but not the one about Kearney or Bowe?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Bowe has quite clearly made a huge contribution to Ireland over the last number of years. Kearney this 6 nations was spectacular, and it took some individual brilliance from the likes of these two to get anything going. There are some very talented players in Ireland atm, and a ton of options in certain positions, but what use is that with the way Ireland are playing atm. When BOD returns, nothing will change.

Kidney is struggling to find the replacements for BOD.. So I'm guessing you are now admitting that Earls isn't good enough? That must be what Smith is saying too. That Earls isn't a very good replacement, nor does he mention Earls. He mustn't rate him.

I think Bowe (despite all the trys) was quiet enough in this 6Ns. Kearney did very well. Bowe & Kearney are good players, but they are not irreplacable like the way BOD & POC are who will go down as two of Ireland's greatest players.

Earls is also a good player and the best centre after BOD that we've got - just he is not the same player BOD is and it is wrong to expect him to fill BOD's boots.

When BOD & POC do come back (hopefully BOD's fitness will go ok), I expect Ireland to be more competitive when they come back, but when the two of them retire, I think we are going to have a lot more disappointments that the best coach in the world won't be able to cure.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Using that logic he doesn't rate Ryan or Ferris either.

Not as highly as POC or BOD.

Why the need to clarify that statement but not the one about Kearney or Bowe?

I don't get what your asking?

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Using that logic he doesn't rate Ryan or Ferris either.

Not as highly as POC or BOD.

Why the need to clarify that statement but not the one about Kearney or Bowe?

I don't get what your asking?

You said he doesn't rate Kearney or Bowe,not he doesn't rate Kearney or Bowe as highly as PoC or BoD why did you feel the need to clarify my post but you didn't do it with your own.They are identical statements about players fairly close in terms of talent.

Sin, no player should be viewed as irreplaceable to be honest. Plus Earls is not the best 13 after BOD, but he did well this 6 nations.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Using that logic he doesn't rate Ryan or Ferris either.

Not as highly as POC or BOD.

Surely its Ryan and Earls Smith doesn't rate as they are the replacements for POC and BOD to which he is referring.

Kearney and Bowe are proven and established internationals, GS winners and test lions and can't replace themselves.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Using that logic he doesn't rate Ryan or Ferris either.

Not as highly as POC or BOD.

Surely its Ryan and Earls Smith doesn't rate as they are the replacements for POC and BOD to which he is referring.

Kearney and Bowe are proven and established internationals, GS winners and test lions and can't replace themselves.

He didn't mention any names. It was just a collective 'not up to much'. Read what he said. The only players that he rates are BOD & POC and he wonders what will happen when they retires. (It was Rory who started going on about Kearney & Bowe. What we saw during the 6Ns was a glimpse of the future.

Smith quote on Ireland:

Ireland
Declan Kidney had been able to transfer the drive and passion of Leinster, Munster and even Ulster into the national team. He coached Munster with a passion, but the national team is deteriorating. Players are ageing and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?

Yes the point is specifically about POC and BOD and their replacements, who I have mentioned above. Clearly he isn't impressed.

It's not about Bowe or Kearney that's just something you've made up.

Anyway I suspect from Smiths lazy article that he hasn't even watched the 6N so I would take what he's said with a pinch of salt.

I think if Kidney prepares properly (he hasn't done so at this point, so I doubt he ever will) then the loss of BOD and POC is not going to be that significant. They are ageing players (like a few others in the team), and we do have some very talented replacements. A team means so much more to me than the individuals, so I don't see why the future is scary for Ireland because of the loss of BOD/POC. If that is the attitude, clearly something is wrong.

Try reading Matt Williams today - he is so polite - a whole page of apology before saying that the Irish side is a crock of - well you know what - and the thing needs a bit of a re-think -

Earls isn't that brilliant I guess after ? caps - but he isn't that bad either - he is however symptomatic in Ireland of excessive expectation and a touch of media over keenness

However, one thing will have to learn to cope with is very large backs - the drift defence is useless against them - the rush defence worked quite well v England - but needs a bit of monitoring - and lining up of some larger backs - there are some around

Matt Williams? Now there's a man who overlorded a few crocks of _____ in his time, so he's likely to know what he's talking about.

But I must have a read anyway because I don't think he'll be far off the truth, given that most of us have been talking about it for over a year now. He's late to the party but we're a welcoming bunch

Matt Williams I remember him at Ulster ...gave the term verbal diarrheoa a whole new meaning

Why trash Earls who was the best player we had... [insult removed] are really clutching at straws now....

Also missing POC and BOD our two best players is always going to make a difference to Ireland. Earls stepped up well in the four games he played. Pity about some of the others...that is probably what Smith was saying.

What games were you watching Kearney and Ferris were comfortably a class above Earls although that's not saying he didn't play pretty well.If he was playing in a team that was coached properly he might actually make a decent centre.

I'd agree with DOD that Earls stepped up and played well (as well as he could - like many players without direction) I have no issues with Earls in this 6N.

Wayne Smith though wasn't trying to say anything. What he said he said:

"Declan Kidney had been able to transfer the drive and passion of Leinster, Munster and even Ulster into the national team. He coached Munster with a passion, but the national team is deteriorating. Players are ageing and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?"

The comments of a man with no real interest in Ireland, watches very little Irish rugby (Provincial or International) and runs the cliches past us to sound like he has a passing interest.

Aging side: - yawn. You could say the same about France, but he doesn't. Aging side because that's the rough impression he gets from barely watching and it's what he hears in the media time and time again.

Kidney struggling to find replacements: No, Kidney not trying out replacements until he has no choice. That's not a search pattern that's hoping you don't need to choose because you don't trust what you might have to. Great respect for the Provinces and academies shown there by our National coach. Meanwhile, most of the changelings he has had to rely on because of injury have shown him that they can stand up for themselves and should have been considered on their own merit in the first place.

DOD wrote:Why trash Earls who was the best player we had... [insult removed] are really clutching at straws now....

Also missing POC and BOD our two best players is always going to make a difference to Ireland. Earls stepped up well in the four games he played. Pity about some of the others...that is probably what Smith was saying.

Earls was good, but hardly the best player we had Nice try though.

SecretFly wrote:I'd agree with DOD that Earls stepped up and played well (as well as he could - like many players without direction) I have no issues with Earls in this 6N.

Yeah no issues with Earls here either he did as well as could be expected in a team coached to use the up n under as their main attacking weapon.

I've always said he'd do a decent job at centre but his talents suit the wing more.

No one was trashing Earls but since its been brought up he was ok but wasn't great, I have no idea what games DOD was watching- Ferris and Kearney were the best Irish players by miles.

DOD has his Munster poster boys who always perform admirably in his eyes. Straight after the England match I am pretty sure he criticised just about every Leinster/Ulster player, and had nothing to say for the Munster guys. He is exceedingly biased.

Earls was a 6.5 out of 10 i.e fairly good but some were

8 - Best, Ryan
9 - Ferris, Kearney

and some were

4 - DOC
3 - D'Arcy

Earls was decent - not the best, not the worst

Am I the only one who thinks D'arcy was better than Earls?

roddersm wrote:Am I the only one who thinks D'arcy was better than Earls?

I'd say I speak for everyone else on the forum when I say yes you're the only one.

I think Earls was good, and I would certainly put him ahead of D'Arcy, but I think D'Arcy/DOC have been made scapegoats atm. D'Arcy was pretty shocking against England, but overall he had a pretty okay tournament. Not good, but not bad either. Same for DOC.

Where's Boyne when you need him?......

Actually I'm being semi serious. I think flash Gordon and Donners are getting a bit off a raw deal here whereas Earls had a mixed bag.

The break against England summed him up. Made a great break and ran 50m and then didn't make the simple pass to Bowe for a certain try.

Nothing is simple in the Irish set up.

Earls was probably enacting break-out move 64B/4962AUTRALIA... he couldn't pass to Bowe in those circumstances.

I am excited to see Cave replace Earls anyway

Absolutely not. God forbid we'd score a half decent try that was created from midfield.

roddersm wrote:Am I the only one who thinks D'arcy was better than Earls?

YES

roddersm wrote: The break against England summed him up. Made a great break and ran 50m and then didn't make the simple pass to Bowe for a certain try.

Yes he did butcher a try but at least he made a break - D'Arcy in the same situiation would have gone for a 40 yard drop goal

3 points is better than none Geoff

roddersm wrote:Am I the only one who thinks D'arcy was better than Earls?

Just saw this. I think so Rodders.

... bunch of brainwashed indo readers the lot of you!....

roddersm wrote:Am I the only one who thinks D'arcy was better than Earls?

I doubt even Gordon's own mother thought he was better than Earls.

Ha ha rodders...you are seriously funny...

Just to note it was woody, Philip Matthews who said he had a v good tournament and had made the 13 shirt his own (just a snapshot of commentators). To add to that he was 3rd highest in terms of metres gained of all centres, his tackling was v good, kicking game was good, made a couple of try's and so on.

Probably our biggest and only threat in the backline and our most creative player. But hey Gordon was better!!! You have every right to think that. After 10 pints a few shots and a line of coke it might make sense..

Even ASLS disagrees....

DOD wrote:Ha ha rodders...you are seriously funny...

Just to note it was woody, Philip Matthews who said he had a v good tournament and had made the 13 shirt his own (just a snapshot of commentators). To add to that he was 3rd highest in terms of metres gained of all centres, his tackling was v good, kicking game was good, made a couple of try's and so on.

Probably our biggest and only threat in the backline and our most creative player. But hey Gordon was better!!! You have every right to think that. After 10 pints a few shots and a line of coke it might make sense..

Even ASLS disagrees....

Standard night out with Rodders.

DOD wrote:Ha ha rodders...you are seriously funny...

Just to note it was woody, Philip Matthews who said he had a v good tournament and had made the 13 shirt his own (just a snapshot of commentators). To add to that he was 3rd highest in terms of metres gained of all centres, his tackling was v good, kicking game was good, made a couple of try's and so on.

Probably our biggest and only threat in the backline and our most creative player. But hey Gordon was better!!! You have every right to think that. After 10 pints a few shots and a line of coke it might make sense..

Even ASLS disagrees....

It would take more than that to make sense of the bolded statement.. more usual rubbish from you DOD.

Yeah you're right Rory. He would be better as an openside flanker....

Well since you always mock my reasoning behind SOB as the irish 7, I guess you feel the same way about your hero Kidney picking him there?

geoff998rugby wrote:

roddersm wrote: The break against England summed him up. Made a great break and ran 50m and then didn't make the simple pass to Bowe for a certain try.

Yes he did butcher a try but at least he made a break - D'Arcy in the same situiation would have gone for a 40 yard drop goal ran 20mtrs sideways and dropped the ball

Sorry geoff, just wanted to amend that

DOD wrote:Ha ha rodders...you are seriously funny...

Why thank you sir

Poor old D'arcy, even the Leinster fans don't love him anymore . Has he become the new Paddy Wallace? Is it the earring?

geoff998rugby wrote:

roddersm wrote:Am I the only one who thinks D'arcy was better than Earls?

YES

Yep, Earls did pretty well with what he was given. Dispelled many of the doubts around him although i still think everything he's good at as a centre is more effective in a winger.

Thought I'd reactivate this thread in the light of the HC games at the weekend see what changes I'd make to my original 25 for the NZ tour which was

15 - R Kearney, Jones
14/11 - Fitzgerald, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Earls, Spence, Downey
10 - Sexton, Madigan
9 - Murray, Reddan, Marshall
8/7/6 - O'Brien, Ferris, O'Mahoney, Coughlan, Henry, Wilson
5/4 - O'Connell, Cullen, Toner, Ryan, Tuohy
1/3 - Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

So who did well and has earned a trip. First two not in my original 35 who should go are Gilroy and Cave and replace Spence and Downey. Thought Cave was up there with 1F for MOM and Gilroy's try was class - albeit helped by dreadful defending by two from Munster who I have on the plane for NZ, Jones and Zebo. Jones had a poor game on Sunday but is worth persevering with as is Zebo - although Zebo is going to have to learn than an international wing's job is a lot more than scoring spectacular tries and his defence was very poor against Ulster. Still, he's youing and he'll learn.

Also worth persevering with Murray although he had a poor game v Ulster on almost all fronts. Not sure about Marshall and maybe this type of tour against big beefy Kiwis might suit an aggressive little bollix like Boss more. Left Headlip out my initial 35 but now think he should go now instead of Wilson (he was always a bit of a wild card anyway) - Heaslip's played a lot better in the last two gamjes against Munster and Cardiff, but is still a good way short of his play of a year ago.

If Varley can't get a starting slot for Munster then he shouldn't go but there aren't a whole lot of alternatives at hooker. Don't think Sherrry is international class. When is Strauss IQ?

So revised 35 is:
15 - Kearney, Jones
14/13/12/11 - Fitzgerald, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Earls, Cave, Gilroy
10 - Sexton, Madigan
9 - Murray, Reddan, Boss
8/7/6 - O'Brien, Ferris, O'Mahoney, Heaslip, Henry, Coughlan
4/5 - O'Connell, Cullen, Tuohy, Toner, Ryan
1/3 - Ross, Healy, Court, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
2 - Best, Cronin, Strauss (if IQ if not then Varley (gulp))

not sure Bowe is available ?