So who's going to NZ for Ireland in June

First topic message reminder :

After last Saturday's fiasco, the thoughts of a three-test tour against NZ seems a pretty frightening prospect. But we're going and we assume that DK and his coaching team will be there as well. So given what's happened the season (and ok I know there are a few big HC games and the Barbarians coming up that might change things), given DK's conservatism when it comes making changes, the argument whether a NZ tour is the place to blood new players, the argument whether players on their way out or soon to retire should be left behind, then who should be on the plane. I'm assuming a 35-player panel (like the Lions) split 19-16 between forwards and backs - maybe the panel will be smaller but for this exercise I'm assuming 35

The choices I think are the following (assuming current injured (BOD, Cullen etc) are fit and get some game time ahead of tour

15 - R Kearney, Jones, Hurley, Duffy
14/11 - Fitzgerald, D Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Trimble
12/13 - Darcy, McFadden, O'Driscoll, O'Malley, Barnes, Earls, Downey, Cave, Spence, Wallace
10 - Sexton, Madigan, Keatley, O'Gara
9 - Boss, Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall
8/7/6 - Heaslip, Jennings, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Dom Ryan, O'Brien, Coughlan, Leamy, O'Mahoney, Wilson, Ferris, Henry, Muldoon
4/5 - Cullen, Toner, Nagle, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy
1/3 - Ross, Hagan, McGrath, Archer, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson, Court, McAllister
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

So from all that, here is my 35

15 - R Kearney, Jones
14/11 - Fitzgerald, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Earls, Spence, Downey
10 - Sexton, Madigan
9 - Murray, Reddan, Marshall
8/7/6 - O'Brien, Ferris, O'Mahoney, Coughlan, Henry, Wilson
5/4 - O'Connell, Cullen, Toner, Ryan, Tuohy
1/3 - Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

so that's it - no Darcy, O'Gara or Heaslip - Darcy and Heaslip because of sh1te form in 6N - how Stephen Jones had Heaslip as his best 8 in the 6N i can't fathom since he was outplayed by every other 8. Darcy gone because he's a pale shadow of what he was and his time has come, ROG, not because he's played badly but because he's 35 or so and we need to start looking at his successor - now.

New blood in Zebo, Madigan, Jones, Spence, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Wilson. Most controversial choices - Downey at 12 (we need to at least try a bash merchant since everybody else seems to be), Wilson because I think he's been unfairly penalised for playing outside Ireland (and he's back next year anyway)

Still frightening light in the front row but until we discover a Romanian/Georgian/Samon/Tongan/Kiwi/Aus prop who is IQ we're in deep sh1t

Views? Well constructive ones anyway!

Does Zebo not play at 14 for Munster? Also he should get his chance for Ireland soon. He is a very dangerous player. Hope to see Felix Jones get another chance in the future as well. Flip me Munster have a dangerous back three..

Zebo plays 11 for Munster. Howlett (before his injury) was 14.

Fly - for me its not about the past or the future or anything - just about now. For me Zebo has earned his shot and we are best equipped to beat NZ with him in the squad.

The most important question is who's not going.

Time to give up the golden generation in toto?

Fly I agree with you 100%.
My reaction to the earlier comment was the suggestion Trimble shouldn't be taken on tour because he needed to "improve".
I really hope some of the fringe players do get game time and there certainly are a few exciting individuals lining up.

I think Trimble had an ok 6N actually. His last two performances were his best and 2 tries wasn't a bad return.

Bowe is still the best finisher around but isn't quite in top form.

That said I'd love to see Zeebbbooo and Dave Kearney get a chance. I think they'd bring a fresh dimension and energy to the side. Madigan too. We know what both Trimble and Bowe bring to the table and need to see if younger guys can cut the mustard.

Heaslip being dropped is a no brainer. Hes not performing and hasn't for a while. Stick SOB at 8 and O'Mahoney at 7 and put Wally or Henry on the bench.

Theres too many players who look stale and complacent and lack hunger.

Only Ferris, Kearney, Best, POC, Ryan, POM and Sexton should be happy with their 6N form. A few other guys need to look in the mirror.

I don't think it's about earning either though, Stag. I mean, you earn your Irish shirt when you perform in it. So any of these as yet untried players we speak about might not act the real deal at that highest level. I'm not saying these players have earned anything, I'm saying they are the ones on the ladder, chasing uphill rather than trying to stall the roll downhill (D'arcy, O'Callaghan etc) They haven't earned anything yet - they just happen to be the options there at the moment to continue the evolution of this Irish side. Evolution in my mind doesn't mean revolution. I think a lot of people here shy away from the topic a little because they think it's revolution.

Evolution is someone like Zebo getting a full game or a sizeable portion of a game against New Zealand .... next game Bowe is back. Then next 6N, Bowe plays against France, Zebo plays a sizeable portion of a game against England. It's not and shouldn't be that Bowe is threatened by Zebo. Zebo adds to team Ireland's options for his first year or two.

Too much talk about 'that player should' and 'that player shouldn't'. I think we all see now the lack of wisdom of that policy of having one incumbant and one player who might fill in if serious injury hits the incumbant.

So it is the future, and it isn't really about earning your place as much as simply getting the necessary machinery of an International side evolving working smoothly.

Portnoy wrote:The most important question is who's not going.

Time to give up the golden generation in toto?

Portnoy IMO the answer is easy enough - the guys who have been playing badly. That is Donnacha O'Callaghan and Gordon Darcy.

Ridding all our senior players in one fell swoop isnt the answer - as an English fan you know better than most what can happen.

We ditch those two for this tour - they aren't upto it.

SecretFly wrote:I don't think it's about earning either though, Stag. I mean, you earn your Irish shirt when you perform in it. So any of these as yet untried players we speak about might not act the real deal at that highest level. I'm not saying these players have earned anything, I'm saying they are the ones on the ladder, chasing uphill rather than trying to stall the roll downhill (D'arcy, O'Callaghan etc) They haven't earned anything yet - they just happen to be the options there at the moment to continue the evolution of this Irish side. Evolution in my mind doesn't mean revolution. I think a lot of people here shy away from the topic a little because they think it's revolution.

Evolution is someone like Zebo getting a full game or a sizeable portion of a game against New Zealand .... next game Bowe is back. Then next 6N, Bowe plays against France, Zebo plays a sizeable portion of a game against England. It's not and shouldn't be that Bowe is threatened by Zebo. Zebo adds to team Ireland's options for his first year or two.

Too much talk about 'that player should' and 'that player shouldn't'. I think we all see now the lack of wisdom of that policy of having one incumbant and one player who might fill in if serious injury hits the incumbant.

So it is the future, and it isn't really about earning your place as much as simply getting the necessary machinery of an International side evolving working smoothly.

I agree with that.

As well as some of the younger players getting a chance, I still think the likes of David Wallace deserves a chance for Ireland once more. Yes, we should be trying to play some of our younger talented players, and bring them through. But Wallace was in some of his best form of his career before his injury. If he plays like that there is no reason he shouldn't get a chance. If you can still play better than the rest and your body is up to it, there is no reason to be dropped. Brad Thorn is a good example.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As well as some of the younger players getting a chance, I still think the likes of David Wallace deserves a chance for Ireland once more. Yes, we should be trying to play some of our younger talented players, and bring them through. But Wallace was in some of his best form of his career before his injury. If he plays like that there is no reason he shouldn't get a chance. If you can still play better than the rest and your body is up to it, there is no reason to be dropped. Brad Thorn is a good example.

+1

He's the kind that is still teaching by example.

red_stag wrote:

Portnoy IMO the answer is easy enough - the guys who have been playing badly. That is Donnacha O'Callaghan and Gordon Darcy.

Ridding all our senior players in one fell swoop isnt the answer - as an English fan you know better than most what can happen.

We ditch those two for this tour - they aren't upto it.

I don't think DoC has been anywhere near as bad as D'Arcy,don't get me wrong I think it was a series of shocking selection decisions that left Ryan on the bench behind DoC but I still think he has something left to offer as a squad player and a bench option.

Im not sure he does ASLS.

I think that Dan Tuohy, Donnacha Ryan, Paul O'Connell and Devin Toner are there ahead of him.

I just find him ineffective.

If Wallace can get back to top form then I'd bring in on tour for sure.

Just asked this question in the club section but I will ask here too.. Does anyone think Ireland are having problems at 8? Rather than at 7, I have no idea why people think we are having problems there. 8 is where we are weak in our back row right now, with Heaslip not performing. Next best option is probably SOB, who doesn't actually play there and I have a feeling people will be disappointed with him there.

Ireland have many flankers, and flankers who can play at 8, but few actual 8s. Heaslip is the only one in fact.

Munster have James Coughlan
Ulster (next season) have Roger Wilson. At the moment they have a NIQ
Connacht have a NIQ

Leinster have Heaslip who is in the squad already.

I suppose the question is do you get versatile flankers who can cover 8 like David Wallace, Sean O'Brien, Chris Henry, Peter O'Mahony, Denis Leamy or do you bring up Wilson and Coughlan.

Well the best 8s in the world right now play there week in week out. It is a specialist position, while flanker I think is more about balance than having a "specialist" 6 or a "specialist" 7. Think Quinlan/Wallace vs Hill/Back etc. Coughlan started off primarily as a flanker did he not? He plays at 8 week in week out though, so it is probably his primary position now. Wilson is a good shout, forgot about him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just asked this question in the club section but I will ask here too.. Does anyone think Ireland are having problems at 8?

Yes.

Our 1st choice specialist 8's right now are Heaslip, Coughlan and Wannenburg.

Next season Wannenburg will be replaced by Wilson but thats still 2 30 something journeymen competing with Heaslip, who's no spring chicken himself.

Heaslip is there by default at the minute and isn't performing up to the standards of an international no 8 right now in my opinion.

Ruddock is the great white hope but looks more like a no 6 than an 8 to me.

6.5?????

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just asked this question in the club section but I will ask here too.. Does anyone think Ireland are having problems at 8?

Yes.

Our 1st choice specialist 8's right now are Heaslip, Coughlan and Wannenburg.

Next season Wannenburg will be replaced by Wilson but thats still 2 30 something journeymen competing with Heaslip, who's no spring chicken himself.

Heaslip is there by default at the minute and isn't performing up to the standards of an international no 8 right now in my opinion.

Ruddock is the great white hope but looks more like a no 6 than an 8 to me.

What it would take for Ruddock to become a specialist 8, is to get actual game-time at 8. He may look like a 6 now (as Kieran Read did too) but the only way for him to be any decent option at 8, is for him to get consistent game-time there. In general I think Ruddock hasn't lived up to the promise though. POM has always looked good at 8 when I have seen him but he would need to bulk up and once again get consistent game-time there. Plus everyone seems happy with him at 7.

Conan for the u20s looked a specialist 8, and has that confidence you need at 8, and was one of the few players to give Ireland any momentum against England. Always made metres with ball in hand and broke the gain-line, something nobody else could do.

I'd say 6.3. O'brien is a 6.6 and Wallace a 6.7.

O'Mahoney is a 6.66. I believe he was born with it imprinted on his forehead.

roddersm wrote:I'd say 6.3. O'brien is a 6.6 and Wallace a 6.7.

O'Mahoney is a 6.66. I believe he was born with it imprinted on his forehead.

That's another innovation Ireland have brought to rugby (along with the gallows tackle)... the pointzmen. They ain't 6 and they ain't 7 - drop a point [ . ] in there and we'll shake on the difference.

And they say Ireland are stale and lack invention. We're rewriting the rugby rule book as we speak.

But if we have a 6,7,8 then our 21 is better than your 19.6 so we win

Next season it looks like Roger Wilson could be Ulsters first choice number 8, in fact he should be in the extended squad already on form. Not the 22 but there's no-one breathing down Heaslips neck and I don't like that.

Healy, McAllister, Court, Ross, Hagan, Andress
Best, Cronin, ????
POC, Ryan, Tuohy, ???
Ferris, POM, SOB, Henry/Wallace/Ruddock (1 from 3), Wilson, Heaslip
Murray, Reddan, Marshall
Sexton, Madigan, ROG
BOD, Cave, McFadden, ????
Fitzgerald, Bowe, Trimble, Earls, Kearney Jr.
Kearney, Jones

??? - Cant decide
I know that is 36 - cant decide who loses out
Reality is Andress and Wilson will not be considered.

Has the curtain completely dropped on Denis Leamy.

Thats another question. For this tour he wont travel. But I have a funny feeling there is life in him yet.

The curtain should have dropped on Leamy in 2008. Hes never come close to his pre 2007 form.

Roger Wilson wasn't international class in his prime and isn't now just because hes returning to Ulster. He's Provincial/club standard at best and too slow for international rugby.

Unless Heaslip recaptures his form then we have not international standard no 8s.

How long will the titans like BOD and POC (ROG even) be 'bed-blocking'?

As we speak, the first post RWC 6Ns is gone and (I'm not going to enter the Irish coach debate) bugger-all has been achieved.

Tempus fugit. And suddenly you'll find that that there's no time left.

Two years of Declan. Two years of the old guard and no preparation time for the next generation of players.

Like England 2004.

ignore

Portnoy - to be fair we had Keith Earls play 5 matches in a row at 13. Thats a step forward. What will be a step back is if BOD reclaims his shirt just like that. Donnacha Ryan and Peter O'Mahony were new additions who got ample game time also.

I would say that things were fine except for O'Callaghan and Darcy

They aren't bed-blocking they remain the best in their positions.

Come the next 6N they should be the only ones of the old guard left.

ROG, Reddan and Wallace may well have a role to play in this coming tour and the autumn internationals.

Geoff - Leamy wont be travelling he is injured.

Rodders - I agree we have no international standard #8. Do we move O'Brien/Ferris/O'Mahony to #8?

Swap with England

red_stag wrote:Portnoy - to be fair we had Keith Earls play 5 matches in a row at 13. Thats a step forward. What will be a step back is if BOD reclaims his shirt just like that. Donnacha Ryan and Peter O'Mahony were new additions who got ample game time also.

I would say that things were fine except for O'Callaghan and Darcy

Whilst BOD was out injured. And much good Earls did them overall.

D'Arcy has been mainly crap for two years and who's going to replace DOC?

The time to rebuild is now - and take the hit.

Take Wilson - he is a better player than when he left. Most experienced alternative we have.
Develop SOB as an 8 and take the best prospect for 6/8 - probably Ruddock.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:Portnoy - to be fair we had Keith Earls play 5 matches in a row at 13. Thats a step forward. What will be a step back is if BOD reclaims his shirt just like that. Donnacha Ryan and Peter O'Mahony were new additions who got ample game time also.

I would say that things were fine except for O'Callaghan and Darcy

Whilst BOD was out injured. And much good Earls did them overall.

D'Arcy has been mainly crap for two years and who's going to replace DOC?

The time to rebuild is now - and take the hit.

Portnoy, whether BOD was injured or not we got consistent game time to Earls in the fabled #13 shirt.

Donnacha Ryan will replace Donnacha O'Callaghan. He has already done so for Munster.

I suspect we will see O'Driscoll and Earls in the centre for Ireland this summer. I agree with you Darcy has been rubbish.

However as I said on a previous thread what happened to England was they had to replace a near whole team in one swoop. We have been slowly removing players - Horan, Flannery, Hayes, Wallace, Leamy, Stringer, B.O'Driscoll, Horgan, Murphy - these were all almost 100% guaranteed starters a few years ago. None of them saw any game time in the 6 Nations.

This summer a few more changes will be made. I actually think we will be able to have fans and players adjusted to losing our older talismen - it just takes time.

Kidney is doing a poor job but even still we are doing ok.

O'Brien would be the one from those 3 stag. He has the footballing and ball carrying ability to play 8 for sure, the only thing hes lacking is the lineout skills.

Ruddock and even Chris Henry would be possibles too.

I agree Portnoy I think Ireland very much resemble England post 2003. We seem too focused on hanging on to the 'glory days' than building for the future.

That said David Wallace, POC and BOD are definitely still good enough although a few others should be let go imo.

Give Kearney, Ferris, Sexton or Donnacha Ryan the captaincy and lets build a new era. If old guard are still performing then select them but we need to let the younger guys lead and not just follow O'Connell, ROG and BOD into the breach.

I think Ryan was probably playing himself on to a starting place along side POC until POC got injured. Never in a million years was Deccie leaving DOC out after that. Remains to be seen if he now has the sense to let him stay in Ireland for the summer.
D'Arcy is the biggest problem. I said before the 6N that he would play simply because BOD was injured. I think (hope) now that BOD looks like he is fit again then a similar decision can be taken with D'Arcy.
I agree with Stag that radical changes are not required.

"Kidney is doing a poor job but even still we are doing ok."

You think so Staggy?

Always there's the call call for the coach's head on the block after a few disappointing games. Ireland have taken two notable scalps since February last year - England at home and Oz in NZ. The first with an almighty flame of desire behind them and the second to an understrength Australia.

But at some time Ireland have to let go of Mammy's apron strings and let the new generation flourish. The people are there, I'm sure - that's obvious. But how can the new talismans emerge if the old ones are still there?

Declan is no EOS nor Warren Gatland before him. He's better than them both IMO.

But he is having a torrid time balancing progress and failure.

Now is the time to cut the ties and as Gibbo/Guinness would say : Believe!

Portnoy wrote:
Declan is no EOS nor Warren Gatland before him. He's better than them both IMO.

Bollix he is. Anyone I speak to who's worked with him says the same, great at psychology and attention to detail but rubbish tactically.

The man is out of his depth and has been since day one.

OK another lamb to the slaughter.

So who's next to create a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Funny how the exchanges exchange.

Last January the Welsh were pillorying Gatland whilst the Irish were feting Declan.

Wrong Portnoy. We (well most of us) have been calling for him to go since 2010.

Elwood maybe? Bradley did a good job as caretaker before too.

I have a feeling the IRFU are grooming another yes man in Ruddock, whos got the U-20's playing touch rugby.

A good NZer who can give that lads a kick up the backside and getting them playing with a bit of ambition and confidence.........

Woah rodders, he hasnt been out of his depth since the start. He brought Ireland a GS in 09 and Ireland had one of their best years under him.

He has lost his way in the last year and a bit but he was not out of his depth.

Portnoy wrote:"Kidney is doing a poor job but even still we are doing ok."

You think so Staggy?

Always there's the call call for the coach's head on the block after a few disappointing games. Ireland have taken two notable scalps since February last year - England at home and Oz in NZ. The first with an almighty flame of desire behind them and the second to an understrength Australia.

But at some time Ireland have to let go of Mammy's apron strings and let the new generation flourish. The people are there, I'm sure - that's obvious. But how can the new talismans emerge if the old ones are still there?

Declan is no EOS nor Warren Gatland before him. He's better than them both IMO.

But he is having a torrid time balancing progress and failure.

Now is the time to cut the ties and as Gibbo/Guinness would say : Believe!

Thats the million dollar question Portnoy but lets look at Irelands starting team:

01 Cian Healy - 24 years old
02 Rory Best - 29 years old
03 Mike Ross - 32 years old
04 Donnacha O'Callaghan - 33 years old
05 Paul O'Connell - 32 years old
06 Stephen Ferris - 26 years old
07 Sean O'Brien - 25 years old
08 Jamie Heaslip - 28 years old
09 Conor Murray - 22 years old
10 Jonathan Sexton - 26 years old
11 Andrew Trimble - 27 years old
12 Gordon Darcy - 32 years old
13 Brian O'Driscoll (c) - 33 years old
14 Tommy Bowe - 28 years old
15 Rob Kearney - 25 years old

That is absolutely worst case scenario. IMO if we immediately remove the players in bold replacing them with the likes of Keith Earls and Donnacha Ryan we will be in a good place.

The big issue is Mike Ross and lack of tight heads.

Nonsence Billy he piggy backed a GS off the work Bradley did on the 2008 summer tour.

Since then he's been leading us down a black whole.

Portnoy wrote:OK another lamb to the slaughter.

So who's next to create a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Funny how the exchanges exchange.

Last January the Welsh were pillorying Gatland whilst the Irish were feting Declan.

"A silk purse out of a sow's ear." How very subtle a sneer there, Portnoy. Good show.

But that's a very big fantasy you've begun to tell there at the end. Declan was being fetted last year? Oh do go on, I love fairytales. What were we all saying about him?

red_stag wrote:The big issue is Mike Ross and lack of tight heads.

Agreed. Mike Ross is shot and has been since the RWC imo.

Time to bring Buckley in from the cold.

I am absolutely astonished you would think that rodders, i really am. Towards the end of 2010 was when i first started to have a few niggly doubts about him but before then i thought that he was without a doubt the right man.

red_stag wrote:

Portnoy wrote:"Kidney is doing a poor job but even still we are doing ok."

You think so Staggy?

Always there's the call call for the coach's head on the block after a few disappointing games. Ireland have taken two notable scalps since February last year - England at home and Oz in NZ. The first with an almighty flame of desire behind them and the second to an understrength Australia.

But at some time Ireland have to let go of Mammy's apron strings and let the new generation flourish. The people are there, I'm sure - that's obvious. But how can the new talismans emerge if the old ones are still there?

Declan is no EOS nor Warren Gatland before him. He's better than them both IMO.

But he is having a torrid time balancing progress and failure.

Now is the time to cut the ties and as Gibbo/Guinness would say : Believe!

Thats the million dollar question Portnoy but lets look at Irelands starting team:

01 Cian Healy - 24 years old
02 Rory Best - 29 years old
03 Mike Ross - 32 years old
04 Donnacha O'Callaghan - 33 years old
05 Paul O'Connell - 32 years old
06 Stephen Ferris - 26 years old
07 Sean O'Brien - 25 years old
08 Jamie Heaslip - 28 years old
09 Conor Murray - 22 years old
10 Jonathan Sexton - 26 years old
11 Andrew Trimble - 27 years old
12 Gordon Darcy - 32 years old
13 Brian O'Driscoll (c) - 33 years old
14 Tommy Bowe - 28 years old
15 Rob Kearney - 25 years old

That is absolutely worst case scenario. IMO if we immediately remove the players in bold replacing them with the likes of Keith Earls and Donnacha Ryan we will be in a good place.

The big issue is Mike Ross and lack of tight heads.

Allow me to embolden a few more I'll italicise mine:

01 Cian Healy - 24 years old
02 Rory Best - 29 years old
03 Mike Ross - 32 years old
04 Donnacha O'Callaghan - 33 years old
05 Paul O'Connell - 32 years old
06 Stephen Ferris - 26 years old
07 Sean O'Brien - 25 years old
08 Jamie Heaslip - 28 years old
09 Conor Murray - 22 years old
10 Jonathan Sexton - 26 years old
11 Andrew Trimble - 27 years old
12 Gordon Darcy - 32 years old
13 Brian O'Driscoll (c) - 33 years old
14 Tommy Bowe - 28 years old
15 Rob Kearney - 25 years old

eirebilly wrote:I am absolutely astonished you would think that rodders, i really am. Towards the end of 2010 was when i first started to have a few niggly doubts about him but before then i thought that he was without a doubt the right man.

Actually I don't really think that. I think he was the right man in 2009 and did a great job. He deserves credit for the GS and the results during that period. Equally he needs to carry the can for what has followed.

Since the law changes in 2010, he has struggled to devise any sort of effective or consistant gameplan and with each passing season I'm more and more frustrated at the lack of progress.

I am 100% he is not the man to be coaching the national side and hasn't been for 3 seasons.