So who's going to NZ for Ireland in June

First topic message reminder :

After last Saturday's fiasco, the thoughts of a three-test tour against NZ seems a pretty frightening prospect. But we're going and we assume that DK and his coaching team will be there as well. So given what's happened the season (and ok I know there are a few big HC games and the Barbarians coming up that might change things), given DK's conservatism when it comes making changes, the argument whether a NZ tour is the place to blood new players, the argument whether players on their way out or soon to retire should be left behind, then who should be on the plane. I'm assuming a 35-player panel (like the Lions) split 19-16 between forwards and backs - maybe the panel will be smaller but for this exercise I'm assuming 35

The choices I think are the following (assuming current injured (BOD, Cullen etc) are fit and get some game time ahead of tour

15 - R Kearney, Jones, Hurley, Duffy
14/11 - Fitzgerald, D Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Trimble
12/13 - Darcy, McFadden, O'Driscoll, O'Malley, Barnes, Earls, Downey, Cave, Spence, Wallace
10 - Sexton, Madigan, Keatley, O'Gara
9 - Boss, Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall
8/7/6 - Heaslip, Jennings, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Dom Ryan, O'Brien, Coughlan, Leamy, O'Mahoney, Wilson, Ferris, Henry, Muldoon
4/5 - Cullen, Toner, Nagle, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy
1/3 - Ross, Hagan, McGrath, Archer, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson, Court, McAllister
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

So from all that, here is my 35

15 - R Kearney, Jones
14/11 - Fitzgerald, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Earls, Spence, Downey
10 - Sexton, Madigan
9 - Murray, Reddan, Marshall
8/7/6 - O'Brien, Ferris, O'Mahoney, Coughlan, Henry, Wilson
5/4 - O'Connell, Cullen, Toner, Ryan, Tuohy
1/3 - Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

so that's it - no Darcy, O'Gara or Heaslip - Darcy and Heaslip because of sh1te form in 6N - how Stephen Jones had Heaslip as his best 8 in the 6N i can't fathom since he was outplayed by every other 8. Darcy gone because he's a pale shadow of what he was and his time has come, ROG, not because he's played badly but because he's 35 or so and we need to start looking at his successor - now.

New blood in Zebo, Madigan, Jones, Spence, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Wilson. Most controversial choices - Downey at 12 (we need to at least try a bash merchant since everybody else seems to be), Wilson because I think he's been unfairly penalised for playing outside Ireland (and he's back next year anyway)

Still frightening light in the front row but until we discover a Romanian/Georgian/Samon/Tongan/Kiwi/Aus prop who is IQ we're in deep sh1t

Views? Well constructive ones anyway!

As I mentioned Portnoy we will keep the two in italics a wee bit longer as they are still good enough.

We could now go with Tuohy and Ryan in the 2nd row and McFadden and Cave in the centre and that would leave only Ross over 30 - not too shabby.

Yea Portnoy.

We have 4 old players. Remove two of them in Summer 2012 and the other two by Summer 2013.

We'll be fine. As I said getting rid of everyone at once isn't the answer especially when BOD and POC play so well.

By the time they retire we will have new talismen.

Kidney came on board and the lingo going down back then was we had to get the chip off our shoulders and go win a Slam with players who often threatened and never succeeded. That was first - then he was expected to start the painful exercise of beginning to ring in the changes at Ireland - gradually introduce a new generation and create a squad rather than a team (where you would have ready made replacements for each position)

I don't think any of us expected him to go on winning - that wasn't the agenda. It certainly wasn't what he promised and it certainly wasn't the bulk of what we all chatted about after the 2009 Slam.

We all admitted what needed to come and we all appreciated that changing the old guard would be painful.

Kidney can't be blamed for the need to concentrate on rebuilding (ie, the lack of prefered results)...BUT - he can be blamed for not walking fully into that job of renewal....and he can be blamed for losing focus on business end structures as he fumbles about with a confusing mix of old and new players, stop-gap/injury spurred new caps, a resistance to new when old alternatives still exist (O'Leary)..and a pretty evident loss of confidence in his own ability to turn it round (he was reduced to telling his side the risks of going too low in the rankings before they played Scotland... was he expecting a loss?) He certainly didn't know what to expect - and neither do we.

That's the major fault - nobody, not the players, the coaches or the fans really know what to expect from this Irish side from one game to the next. It's rugby on the flip of a coin and the passion of a dressingroom speech. Not nearly good enough.

Side for NZ:

15 R Kearney
14 Bowe
13 Earls
12 O'Driscoll
11 Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 O'Brien
7 O'Mahoney
6 Ferris
5 O'Connell
4 Ryan
3 Hagan
2 Best (c)
1 Healy

Bench Ross, Cronin, Tuohy, Henry, Murray, Madigan, McFadden

Personally i feel that Kidney is not the man to take Ireland further but that should in no way mean that he hasnt done a good job because he has.

He cops a lot of flaq and most of that is unjustified.

Well said 'Fly.

Maybe the the perennial English reliance on foreign players in the provincial sides will come to the fore in Ireland's HEC campaign this year.

But that won't help Ireland.

eirebilly wrote:Personally i feel that Kidney is not the man to take Ireland further but that should in no way mean that he hasnt done a good job because he has.

He cops a lot of flaq and most of that is unjustified.

This sums up my views on him too.

I don't think he cops anywhere near enough flak Billy. The Irish media is full of IRFU cronies. His win loss ratio is about 50% which is diabolical.

In fairness Kidney he hasn't been helped by the backward thinking and shortsighteness of the IRFU. The whole set up needs an overhall.

The provinces and overseas players seem to be an easy scapegoat for the underperformance of the national side in the media right now.

Well who's going to sack him?

The IRFU repeated the 2007 trick of reappointing the manager before the RWC (when most Irish seemed in both cases to be content).

If Declan were sacked now, no doubt that would kick in severance payments (costly).

And then the new coach would have be the new saviour (part IV).

I cannot see how one win in the last 8 games against the top 7 teams can be seen as anything other than unacceptable.

geoff998rugby wrote:I cannot see how one win in the last 8 games against the top 7 teams can be seen as anything other than unacceptable.

Its not and thats why i say that he is not the man to take Ireland forward. This does not mean that he has done a bad job over his whole tenure.

geoff998rugby wrote:I cannot see how one win in the last 8 games against the top 7 teams can be seen as anything other than unacceptable.

Me neither and I certainly can't see how it can be attributed in any way to Isa Nacewa, Ruan Pienaar,Doug Howlett and co plying their trade in Ireland and Leinster and Munster winning 4 out of the last 6 HEC cups.

The IRFU and media want to point their finger everywhere except at the head coach.

I laugh when we're painted as a desperate race altogether, with our constant desire for new coaches and our constant 'underperforming' with them. The joke goes like this: how come it's always the coach's fault that he can't get players who constantly 'underperform' (snigger) to ...perform?

Portnoy:

And then the new coach would have be the new saviour (part IV)..

I alluded to this before when this came up recently..but how many coaches have England looked to in the same period as Ireland have allegedly being falling in and out with theirs?

Ireland falls out with its coaches round about the same time other countries do - namely when results start going down.

The pressure will now grow on Kidney - just as it was growing on Gatland with Wales - until he either falls like Gatland and EOS before him or he has a miraculous conversion (like Gatland at Wales), chooses players who perform, reinstates a gameplan that might have some hope in International waters and begins to get results again.

That's where Kidney is now - a coach with much to prove and a short window to do it in.

Portnoy, Kidney is out of contract next season. I doubt there would be very severe compensation. He has less 1 year to go.

red_stag wrote:Portnoy, Kidney is out of contract next season. I doubt there would be very severe compensation. He has less 1 year to go.

Stop spoiling his rant with facts staggy, you know better than that

SecretFly wrote:I laugh when we're painted as a desperate race altogether, with our constant desire for new coaches and our constant 'underperforming' with them. The joke goes like this: how come it's always the coach's fault that he can't get players who constantly 'underperform' (snigger) to ...perform?

Portnoy:

And then the new coach would have be the new saviour (part IV)..

I alluded to this before when this came up recently..but how many coaches have England looked to in the same period as Ireland have allegedly being falling in and out with theirs?

Ireland falls out with its coaches round about the same time other countries do - namely when results start going down.

The pressure will now grow on Kidney - just as it was growing on Gatland with Wales - until he either falls like Gatland and EOS before him or he has a miraculous conversion (like Gatland at Wales), chooses players who perform, reinstates a gameplan that might have some hope in International waters and begins to get results again.

That's where Kidney is now - a coach with much to prove and a short window to do it in.

I still question the the sacking/deposal/retirement if MJ. I'm not convinced that he was not let down badly by his senior players many of whom he had played with and had earned his respect and who then turned a blind eye (e.g. Moody and Wilkinson et al) or openly abused trust like Tindall.

You can't give trust without an expectation of reciprocation.

However the past is the past. I just wonder if MJ's team would have been a lot like Lancaster's this year.

Its an interesting question Portnoy. I think Johnson overall was a good manager but just too many former buddies in the team who may not have fully differenciated between Jonno the player and Martin Johnson the manager.

Right man, wrong time.

He still won a 6 Nations trophy.

eirebilly wrote:

red_stag wrote:Portnoy, Kidney is out of contract next season. I doubt there would be very severe compensation. He has less 1 year to go.

Stop spoiling his rant with facts staggy, you know better than that

At the end of next year Bill
y?

That'll be RWC+2. And a short time to decide in a new coach and his ability to turn the tide,

A la MJ.

Portnoy wrote:
I still question the the sacking/deposal/retirement if MJ. I'm not convinced that he was not let down badly by his senior players many of whom he had played with and had earned his respect and who then turned a blind eye (e.g. Moody and Wilkinson et al) or openly abused trust like Tindall.

You can't give trust without an expectation of reciprocation.

However the past is the past. I just wonder if MJ's team would have been a lot like Lancaster's this year.

I agree with every word of that Portnoy.

I think the fuss about the WC was blown out of all proportion (coaching wise) The players who acted foolishly or worse have their own consciences to work on. But as a Head coach who endured a bad few weeks at the office, I think the 'resignation' was much too knee-jerk. His England side had blown it on too much cockiness (built on a growing confidence) but I think that was easily fixable when he got them back home.

But Johnson hadn't had the run of bad results Kidney now has...and wasn't 8th going into the WC, and 8th going in to this year's 6n, and 8th leaving it. Johnson took his time possibly, but I think he was on the right track and would have produced a side as tough if not tougher than Lancaster's lot this season. Kidney's problems are/were bigger.

Portnoy wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

red_stag wrote:Portnoy, Kidney is out of contract next season. I doubt there would be very severe compensation. He has less 1 year to go.

Stop spoiling his rant with facts staggy, you know better than that

At the end of next year Bill
y?

That'll be RWC+2. And a short time to decide in a new coach and his ability to turn the tide,

A la MJ.

Portnoy, he is gone as the Lions start. That gives a new man 2 years to build a team.

IMO it takes less than that.

4 year cycles are garbage. The Lions distorts preparations. You only need 18 months or so to really build a team (see current Wales, England teams etc).

Those England and Wales teams aren't the finished article stag.

It took Clive Woodward 6 years to build a RWC winning side, Graham Henry longer.

Imo players peak after around 40 caps and between 26-31 years old depending on the position and player, injury etc.

That means 4 years out from a RWC you want a fair proportion of your side to be around 21-25. It takes time to build that big match experience and functioning units.

If you are serious about winning the RWC you can't throw a side together 18 months out from the competition.

Portnoy wrote:


I still question the the sacking/deposal/retirement if MJ. I'm not convinced that he was not let down badly by his senior players many of whom he had played with and had earned his respect and who then turned a blind eye (e.g. Moody and Wilkinson et al) or openly abused trust like Tindall.

You can't give trust without an expectation of reciprocation.

However the past is the past. I just wonder if MJ's team would have been a lot like Lancaster's this year.

MJ had a wonderful opportunity and in my opinion was going about it the right way. He came to Dublin last March and got turned over. He panicked, went backwards and the WC was a disaster for him.
I'm sure if he had stayed there wouldn't be too many differences between his and Lancasters teams.

A point about Sean O'Brien moving to 8; I think Ferris would be much more suited to the move than O'Brien, and Ferris is the best ball carrier Ireland have. Probably our best defender as well, but I think Ferris could do better than anyone at 8.

The worst thing that happened Martin Johnson was England beating Australia in the manner they did.

It raised expectation to unrealistic levels and gave a skewed impression of what level England were at. Too many people thought the glory days had returned when clearly the side was full of weaknesses.

Lancaster has done very well but its against a back drop of lower and more realistic expectations.

roddersm wrote:Those England and Wales teams aren't the finished article stag.

It took Clive Woodward 6 years to build a RWC winning side, Graham Henry longer.

Imo players peak after around 40 caps and between 26-31 years old depending on the position and player, injury etc.

That means 4 years out from a RWC you want a fair proportion of your side to be around 21-25. It takes time to build that big match experience and functioning units.

If you are serious about winning the RWC you can't throw a side together 18 months out from the competition.

Yes but are you really saying that he is going to bring in 15 new players for Ireland. Most of the team is settled. There are about 5-6 positions that will be changed and yes this can easily be done over 18 months especially as most will have experience with the setup.

The wheel doesnt need reinventing. The core of this side will go into the next RWC.

red_stag wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

red_stag wrote:Portnoy, Kidney is out of contract next season. I doubt there would be very severe compensation. He has less 1 year to go.

Stop spoiling his rant with facts staggy, you know better than that

At the end of next year Bill
y?

That'll be RWC+2. And a short time to decide in a new coach and his ability to turn the tide,

A la MJ.

Portnoy, he is gone as the Lions start. That gives a new man 2 years to build a team.

IMO it takes less than that.

4 year cycles are garbage. The Lions distorts preparations. You only need 18 months or so to really build a team (see current Wales, England teams etc).

The Lions distorts preparations.
Bollix. The Lions are chosen on two factors : Reputation and impressive current form.

You only need 18 months or so to really build a team (see current Wales, England teams etc)

If you believe that a: Wales have turned up a really medium-term convincing side, then I'd disagree.

And England are pretty much pants at the moment.

But that says a lot about the trough that Ireland and France are in.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:A point about Sean O'Brien moving to 8; I think Ferris would be much more suited to the move than O'Brien, and Ferris is the best ball carrier Ireland have. Probably our best defender as well, but I think Ferris could do better than anyone at 8.

SOB is no no8. He's an out and out 6.

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote:Those England and Wales teams aren't the finished article stag.

It took Clive Woodward 6 years to build a RWC winning side, Graham Henry longer.

Imo players peak after around 40 caps and between 26-31 years old depending on the position and player, injury etc.

That means 4 years out from a RWC you want a fair proportion of your side to be around 21-25. It takes time to build that big match experience and functioning units.

If you are serious about winning the RWC you can't throw a side together 18 months out from the competition.

Yes but are you really saying that he is going to bring in 15 new players for Ireland. Most of the team is settled. There are about 5-6 positions that will be changed and yes this can easily be done over 18 months especially as most will have experience with the setup.

The wheel doesnt need reinventing. The core of this side will go into the next RWC.

Agree with this.

Portnoy wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:A point about Sean O'Brien moving to 8; I think Ferris would be much more suited to the move than O'Brien, and Ferris is the best ball carrier Ireland have. Probably our best defender as well, but I think Ferris could do better than anyone at 8.

SOB is no no8. He's an out and out 6.

What is an "out and out" 6 though, other than someone who plays there consistently?

red_stag wrote:Yes but are you really saying that he is going to bring in 15 new players for Ireland. Most of the team is settled. There are about 5-6 positions that will be changed and yes this can easily be done over 18 months especially as most will have experience with the setup.

The wheel doesnt need reinventing. The core of this side will go into the next RWC.

No I think he picked more or less the right side against Wales. However we failed to launch any type of assault on the title so its time to move on an look to the future starting in the summer.

Its not even about the future, its about the present.

The first thing needs changing is the coaching team.

I would say over half the current side will not be at the 2015 RWC or past their prime then.

Portnoy I dont see what "bollix".

The Lions does distort an international teams preparations. They are unavailable to them. You know of course that France are the usual 6 Nations victors after a Lions tour - they won it in 2010, 2006, 2002 and 1998.

In the professional era a home nation has never won the 5/6 Nations after a Lions tour. It has always been France. Once is pattern, twice is a coincidence but four times is a clear clear pattern.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:Yes but are you really saying that he is going to bring in 15 new players for Ireland. Most of the team is settled. There are about 5-6 positions that will be changed and yes this can easily be done over 18 months especially as most will have experience with the setup.

The wheel doesnt need reinventing. The core of this side will go into the next RWC.

No I think he picked more or less the right side against Wales. However we failed to launch any type of assault on the title so its time to move on an look to the future starting in the summer.

Its not even about the future, its about the present.

The first thing needs changing is the coaching team.

I would say over half the current side will not be at the 2015 RWC or past their prime then.

The first thing that needs changing is Darcy and O'Callaghan.

I actually think D'arcy and O'Callaghan played ok.

The team is just stale and devoid of ideas, constrained by a negative gameplan and conservative mindset.

What we need is fresh blood and the fearlessness of youth. A coaching team with ambition and vision and no regard for reputation.

Ferris, Bowe, Kearney, Heaslip and Fitzgerald brought new energy in 2009 and now we need Zebo, POM, Madigan and co to come in and throw off the shackles. Inject ambition and hunger back into the side.

Wow. Did Zebo iron out all the problems with his game while I slept last night? Lot of people clamouring to start a player who's not as good as Earls, Trimble, Bowe or Fitz.

Yes, I saw him against Connacht. He was good, not great. Still, it was markedly better than against Aironi, no?

The two players I would like to see come in most, that I feel the team needs most, are Donnacha Ryan and Peter O'Mahony. Those two should be guaranteed starters at 4 and 7.

12 is trickier because right now Paddy Wallace is playing very well for Ulster and looks a cut above any other option we have in the centre to be honest. That Ulster 12 shirt is definitely his right now. D'Arcy is playing well enough for Leinster despite his well documented poor form in the green shirt.

If those two continue as first choice, it's harder to make a change. There are no younger players making a case to take the shirt off them at provincial level. I wouldn't be worried about 12 looking at the way those two play for their provinces, but neither look anywhere near as good for Ireland. I feel like coaching has to come into that.

That is part of the problem in Ireland to be honest. Expecting the young potential players to iron out and perfect their trade for their province before ever getting a chance internationally. I assure you no other team does this, they let their players grow into the role by throwing them into the deep end. A bit of flair and enthusiasm would be a good addition to this irish team.

Donnacha Ryan, yes, we need some mobility at second row. POM at 7, no. He played well but no better than SOB and was less effective in the tackle. The only thing he really offers over SOB is his lineout ability (hardly something expected of a 7).

Notch, D'Arcy was playing well enough for Leinster. It will be interesting to see if Schmidt puts him straight back into the team this weekend after his rest period.
Schmidt could do Ireland a massive favour and just not pick him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That is part of the problem in Ireland to be honest. Expecting the young potential players to iron out and perfect their trade for their province before ever getting a chance internationally. I assure you no other team does this, they let their players grow into the role by throwing them into the deep end. A bit of flair and enthusiasm would be a good addition to this irish team.

So we should throw Zebo in without expecting him to be any better than Ireland's fifth best winger? I don't need him to perfect his game before I'd want to see him start for Ireland. I'd just want him to be markedly better than he currently is.

There's a bit of a weird, false equation that youth = flair, exuberance and creativity. Maybe in a bad novel set in the sixties. Not necessarily in real life.

Got to agree with Rory here. Sometimes we need to take a punt on a promising young player and not insist that

- he is first choice provincially
- he has x years Pro 12 experience
- he has x years heineken Cup experience
- he has been capped for the Wolfhounds.

its not a bad framework but sometimes i would just like to see us take a punt. Worked with BOD

Absolutely take a punt with a young lad. He who dares, wins.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That is part of the problem in Ireland to be honest. Expecting the young potential players to iron out and perfect their trade for their province before ever getting a chance internationally. I assure you no other team does this, they let their players grow into the role by throwing them into the deep end. A bit of flair and enthusiasm would be a good addition to this irish team.

So we should throw Zebo in without expecting him to be any better than Ireland's fifth best winger? I don't need him to perfect his game before I'd want to see him start for Ireland. I'd just want him to be markedly better than he currently is.

There's a bit of a weird, false equation that youth = flair, exuberance and creativity. Maybe in a bad novel set in the sixties. Not necessarily in real life.

I thought we were describing Zebo actually. Plus there are a few young options who could add those words you describe.

eirebilly wrote:Absolutely take a punt with a young lad. He who dares, wins.

..... so I'm often told Billy

Harsh on Zebo there Don. He has electric pace and huge potential. We can't wait until players have erdicated every single flaw in their game before we select them. Lets look at what they can do rather than what they can't.

That goes for a lot of players, like Spence, EOM etc. I have been harsh on EOM's defence in the past for example.

Yeah rodders, i would just like to see Deccie chancing his arm once in a while. There is the talent out there to do it

No player is without flaw Rory, young or old. You have to way up whether a players strengths out way their weaknesses.

I'd say in Zebo's case they do. There's no substitute for raw pace.

Ah yes, If only we played Zebo, we'd be brilliant. We'd beat the All Blacks if only we dared to field him, Griffen, Madigan and Paddy McAllister.

Playing youngsters won't make us as good as the Welsh currently are. Getting a proper coach should. Desperation is causing all kinds of crazy talk on here.

Its not about making Ireland as good as the Welsh (to be honest i don't see much between Ireland and Wales) its about Deccie taking a chance and seeing what these players can do and about attempting to create some strength in depth.

No, you are just taking things completely out of context.

Is Alex Cuthbert been any better for the Blues than any of our young wingers. He scores some cracking trys but is prone to brainfarts (arent all youngsters).

He cost the blues two trys at the weekend there. Doesnt take away from his talent though. I think the coach thing will seriously help bring youngsters through at a quicker pace.

Like i say you dont do it en masse or just because they are young. You look out for a special talent, identify it and back it. we dont seem to ever want to do that.