So who's going to NZ for Ireland in June

by brennomac Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

After last Saturday's fiasco, the thoughts of a three-test tour against NZ seems a pretty frightening prospect. But we're going and we assume that DK and his coaching team will be there as well. So given what's happened the season (and ok I know there are a few big HC games and the Barbarians coming up that might change things), given DK's conservatism when it comes making changes, the argument whether a NZ tour is the place to blood new players, the argument whether players on their way out or soon to retire should be left behind, then who should be on the plane. I'm assuming a 35-player panel (like the Lions) split 19-16 between forwards and backs - maybe the panel will be smaller but for this exercise I'm assuming 35

The choices I think are the following (assuming current injured (BOD, Cullen etc) are fit and get some game time ahead of tour

15 - R Kearney, Jones, Hurley, Duffy
14/11 - Fitzgerald, D Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Trimble
12/13 - Darcy, McFadden, O'Driscoll, O'Malley, Barnes, Earls, Downey, Cave, Spence, Wallace
10 - Sexton, Madigan, Keatley, O'Gara
9 - Boss, Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall
8/7/6 - Heaslip, Jennings, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Dom Ryan, O'Brien, Coughlan, Leamy, O'Mahoney, Wilson, Ferris, Henry, Muldoon
4/5 - Cullen, Toner, Nagle, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy
1/3 - Ross, Hagan, McGrath, Archer, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson, Court, McAllister
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

So from all that, here is my 35

15 - R Kearney, Jones
14/11 - Fitzgerald, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Earls, Spence, Downey
10 - Sexton, Madigan
9 - Murray, Reddan, Marshall
8/7/6 - O'Brien, Ferris, O'Mahoney, Coughlan, Henry, Wilson
5/4 - O'Connell, Cullen, Toner, Ryan, Tuohy
1/3 - Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
2 - Best, Cronin, Varley

so that's it - no Darcy, O'Gara or Heaslip - Darcy and Heaslip because of sh1te form in 6N - how Stephen Jones had Heaslip as his best 8 in the 6N i can't fathom since he was outplayed by every other 8. Darcy gone because he's a pale shadow of what he was and his time has come, ROG, not because he's played badly but because he's 35 or so and we need to start looking at his successor - now.

New blood in Zebo, Madigan, Jones, Spence, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Wilson. Most controversial choices - Downey at 12 (we need to at least try a bash merchant since everybody else seems to be), Wilson because I think he's been unfairly penalised for playing outside Ireland (and he's back next year anyway)

Still frightening light in the front row but until we discover a Romanian/Georgian/Samon/Tongan/Kiwi/Aus prop who is IQ we're in deep sh1t

Views? Well constructive ones anyway!

by **rodders** Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:07 pm

Ah come on now Don, Bowe, Trims et al have had plenty of cracks at the ABs and we haven't come close.

Give young Zebo a shot, sure what have we got to lose?

by **rodders** Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:10 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Is Alex Cuthbert been any better for the Blues than any of our young wingers. He scores some cracking trys but is prone to brainfarts (arent all youngsters).

He cost the blues two trys at the weekend there. Doesnt take away from his talent though. I think the coach thing will seriously help bring youngsters through at a quicker pace.

Like i say you dont do it en masse or just because they are young. You look out for a special talent, identify it and back it. we dont seem to ever want to do that.

Exactly. Jeebus sure George North has done feic all at club level.

by **Notch** Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Donnacha Ryan, yes, we need some mobility at second row. POM at 7, no. He played well but no better than SOB and was less effective in the tackle. The only thing he really offers over SOB is his lineout ability (hardly something expected of a 7).

O'Brien is as good a 7 now as he's ever going to be. O'Mahony has a lot of improvement ahead of him, he's going to be a class player. Now, you wouldn't want to advocate short-term thinking in the Ireland set-up would you Rory? Whistle

by Don Alfonso Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:34 pm

roddersm wrote:Ah come on now Don, Bowe, Trims et al have had plenty of cracks at the ABs and we haven't come close.

Give young Zebo a shot, sure what have we got to lose?

Zebo's self-confidence? A genuine tilt at the ABs?

We do promote young talent when it's extraordinary. BOD, Fitz as a youngster. We just don't have any extraordinary talent like that at the moment. We have some talented youngsters. I personally set no stipulations about a player having payed x minutes of HEC rugby, or being a guaranteed starter at their province and so on.

I just think that playing a team that is not comprised of our best players, in the hope that sheer unfamiliarity with our new players means the ABs don't know what to do, is silly. I also don't think there's any evidence Zebo will pull anything properly amazing out of the bag.

by **Notch** Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:41 pm

How many times did Trimble touch the ball in the Six Nations? Because that's whose shirt Zebo would be taking. His pace and youthful flair will mean little outside a malfunctioning midfield. He'll spend most of the game chasing kicks and defending.

I would rather see the problems in the midfield addressed. I think our back three will actually be very good once our backline starts improving.

I would like to see Zebo on this tour though, and I'm not ruling him out of a test if he comes in and does well against the Baa Baas.

by eirebilly Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:49 pm

Zebo is just one of a few players that i would like to see tried. He is still behind Trimble in the pecking order but he has played well enough to earn a shot.

I would also like to see Madigan and Keatley given a shot as well, this doesnt mean that the will oust a player like Sexton but its worth giving them a go to see how they perform and give them some international experience.

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:53 pm

I think you guys have missed the point of the OP: Who cares about the Irish team going to NZ. Who out of you Irish v2 posters are going to NZ in June in order to witness in the flesh your first ever victory against the ABs? How much do you want it? Braveheart

by Taylorman Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:07 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think you guys have missed the point of the OP: Who cares about the Irish team going to NZ. Who out of you Irish v2 posters are going to NZ in June in order to witness in the flesh your first ever victory against the ABs? How much do you want it?

Thats what I thought the post was as well Kia. Thought perhaps catching up for a guiness or two for the windy welly test... thumbsup

by Rory_Gallagher Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:12 pm

Notch wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Donnacha Ryan, yes, we need some mobility at second row. POM at 7, no. He played well but no better than SOB and was less effective in the tackle. The only thing he really offers over SOB is his lineout ability (hardly something expected of a 7).

O'Brien is as good a 7 now as he's ever going to be. O'Mahony has a lot of improvement ahead of him, he's going to be a class player. Now, you wouldn't want to advocate short-term thinking in the Ireland set-up would you Rory?

How do you know SOB is as good a 7 as he is ever going to be? How has POM a lot of improvement ahead of him while SOB doesn't? There is 2 years between them.. SOB is as good an option as any to be developed at 7, and is getting there IMO.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:14 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:
roddersm wrote:Ah come on now Don, Bowe, Trims et al have had plenty of cracks at the ABs and we haven't come close.

Give young Zebo a shot, sure what have we got to lose?

Zebo's self-confidence? A genuine tilt at the ABs?

We do promote young talent when it's extraordinary. BOD, Fitz as a youngster. We just don't have any extraordinary talent like that at the moment. We have some talented youngsters. I personally set no stipulations about a player having payed x minutes of HEC rugby, or being a guaranteed starter at their province and so on.

I just think that playing a team that is not comprised of our best players, in the hope that sheer unfamiliarity with our new players means the ABs don't know what to do, is silly. I also don't think there's any evidence Zebo will pull anything properly amazing out of the bag.

Before playing for Wales, there was also zero evidence that the likes of Cuthburt and North would pull anything amazing out of the bag. Infact many welsh posters were not happy with the idea of Cuthbert coming in at wing, due to his defensive weaknesses.

by ME-109 Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:15 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Notch wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Donnacha Ryan, yes, we need some mobility at second row. POM at 7, no. He played well but no better than SOB and was less effective in the tackle. The only thing he really offers over SOB is his lineout ability (hardly something expected of a 7).

O'Brien is as good a 7 now as he's ever going to be. O'Mahony has a lot of improvement ahead of him, he's going to be a class player. Now, you wouldn't want to advocate short-term thinking in the Ireland set-up would you Rory?

How do you know SOB is as good a 7 as he is ever going to be? How has POM a lot of improvement ahead of him while SOB doesn't? There is 2 years between them.. SOB is as good an option as any to be developed at 7, and is getting there IMO.

Should make it by about 2021 at the rate he is going.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:48 am

DOD, he isn't from Munster, so immediately your opinion is biased. He has been Ireland's openside for what, not even a full season? Hasn't actually had a bad game yet. Has had a few very good ones IMO too. Of course, you won't see this.

by geoff998rugby Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:45 am

Sorry Rory I agree I dont think SOB will be a top 7 either I Think POM looks a more likely candidate.

People keep mentioning Zebo but for all round game I think Gilroy is on a par and Kearney jr slightly better than both.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:31 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think you guys have missed the point of the OP: Who cares about the Irish team going to NZ. Who out of you Irish v2 posters are going to NZ in June in order to witness in the flesh your first ever victory against the ABs? How much do you want it?

Never mind flying to NZ Kia, if Ireland keep playing the way they are I'll be switching the feicing TV off........ furious

P.S. you realise the braveheart thing is Scottish right?......

by Sin é Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:35 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Notch wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Donnacha Ryan, yes, we need some mobility at second row. POM at 7, no. He played well but no better than SOB and was less effective in the tackle. The only thing he really offers over SOB is his lineout ability (hardly something expected of a 7).

O'Brien is as good a 7 now as he's ever going to be. O'Mahony has a lot of improvement ahead of him, he's going to be a class player. Now, you wouldn't want to advocate short-term thinking in the Ireland set-up would you Rory?

How do you know SOB is as good a 7 as he is ever going to be? How has POM a lot of improvement ahead of him while SOB doesn't? There is 2 years between them.. SOB is as good an option as any to be developed at 7, and is getting there IMO.

Rory, prior to Peter O'Mahony's first heineken cup game (at blindside), the Sky commentator was giving a rundown on him. Said he had been talking to Alan Quinlan (who raved about him) but he said that Quinlan said that POM was more of a 7 than a 6.

by Sin é Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:57 am

geoff998rugby wrote:

People keep mentioning Zebo but for all round game I think Gilroy is on a par and Kearney jr slightly better than both.

Think its hard to compare them really. Kearney is older, and Gilroy for all his youth has had a lot more gametime than the other two.

Kearney (DOB June '89). Magners: 34 (26 starts) 2179 mins (6 tries). HCup 4 starts (303 mins) 0 tries.
Total rugby mins: 2482. 6 tries. 1 try ever 4 games approx.

Zebo (DOB Mar '90). Magners: 23 (15 starts) 1250 mins (7 tries). Hcup 4 starts (320 mins) 3 tries.
Total rugby mins: 1570. 10 tries. 1 try ever 1.5 games approx.

Gilroy (DOB Mar '91). Magners: 29 (29 starts). 2259 mins (11 tries). Hcup 7 (6 starts). 487 mins. 2 tries.
Total rugby mins: 2746 mins. 1 try ever 2 games.

Interview in the Irish times with Zebo today. His older sister is looking to make the Olympics this year for the 400 metres.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0328/1224314003718.html

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:40 am

roddersm wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think you guys have missed the point of the OP: Who cares about the Irish team going to NZ. Who out of you Irish v2 posters are going to NZ in June in order to witness in the flesh your first ever victory against the ABs? How much do you want it?

Never mind flying to NZ Kia, if Ireland keep playing the way they are I'll be switching the feicing TV off........

P.S. you realise the braveheart thing is Scottish right?......

Even though Mel Gibson is Australian I am familiar with the origins of Braveheart rodders. I have a Scottish father and he always told me to never trust a Campbell. Which was awkward because that was the surname of my two cousins and aunt and uncle. Christmas extended family lunch was a quiet affair. That´s why I made the Freedom thing Irish with a pint of Guiness! There´s no Gaelic warcry emoticon on here but I´ve seen Irish friends on the Guiness and it´s pretty close!

I tend to agree with a poster (I think Laurie from Auckland) that England has done NZ no favours with that loss. The Irish lads will be stewing in their shame for a few months and I expect them to come out with focused aggression in June for the first test, notably in the forwards.

by red_stag Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:44 am

Kia,

There is mild interest amongst Irish fans in travelling.

Most of the ones who do will be young backpackers. Few people are interested actually touring with the team as it would cost about €3,500 and most people who would pay that kind of cash for rugby did so for the RWC and have now seen NZ.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:48 am

Unfortunately this Irish side is used to losing now Kia. Don't expect much fire and brimstone from this crew, just a 70 minute defensive effort,the odd individual try and 15min burst of inspiration here and there.

The spark has gone from the Irish national side right now Kia. No passion, no ambition, no intelligence, no leadership, no vision, no invention, no heart.

Just complacancy, lethargy and self delusion. Maybe the penny will drop sometime but I doubt before this tour.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:57 am

Why so upbeat rodders? You guys crack me up. Anyone would´ve thought you got Scotland´s results. I realise you guys set yourself high standards and you have an enviably consistent record in the 6N and must be frustrated at not performing that extra bit higher but it´s not all doom and gloom. This is your best chance with the first 3 match series I can think of between NZ and Ireland. The prospect of winning for the first time alone should get the pulse racing. You sound flatlined! Have a little faith. Where´s leinsterbaby to give you a good kick up the backside! I certainly don't want to see that record go against Ireland but I´ll tell you without Kaino and Thorn I'm not exactly brimming with confidence that we will win let alone whitewash you.

Plus Stag, the World Cup was in spring and now it´s a chance to see NZ in winter. Plenty of reason to go back for more. Seeing Mitre Peak covered in snow (admiteddly difficult but each time I have seen it in sunshine) and the waterfalls in full swing is a sight worth seeing. Not to mention you breaking the duck. I'm not going to pick you guys up anymore. I really prefer not to see it happen. Even if it means you break out in smiles! Hug

by red_stag Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:14 am

Kia - I agree it would be fantastic - Im just saying it as it is. In many peoples minds they have "done" NZ this year and cant justify two trips to NZ in the same year. Most of the people who would go to this will travel on Lions tour next year instead.

The NZ trip came at a bad time to sell tours.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:15 am

To be honest Kia Scotland impressed me more than us. They may have not got results but they brought through some exciting talent and showed a willingness to play rugby. All they lack is a bit of experience and the results will come.

By contrast we have experience but the bucketload but no desire to play rugby.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:19 am

Sounds like your players need to take Viagra rodders. That will give them the desire and the hard edge they need. Whistle

I was only joking Stag. It´s a long way to go and expensive because time is needed as well as money. But if you get the chance September to me is the ideal month. You can still ski and the weather is milder and the blossoms are coming out. I´ll stop now because I'm getting homesick. Cry

by red_stag Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:20 am

Ah Rodders thats a massive exaggeration.

We scored 4 tries against Scotland, 2 tries against Wales, 2 tries against France and 5 tries against Italy.

The England game was an absolute disaster but at times we played some excellent rugby.

The problem was that we looked unable to play at that level for 80 minutes.

by SecretFly Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:26 am

Maybe we're looking at things the wrong way round. Maybe the players feel they've had a bad 6N........... but not because they didn't win enough games but because they won too many games?

Maybe the plan was to lose even more games and they just couldn't work out how to lose against Italy and Scotland without making it look too obvious?

Maybe the players were saying we want a new coaching team before the All Blacks not after. Maybe they failed in that cause rather than the Grand Slam one?

Oh I do like being mischevous in the morning Wink

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:26 am

Sin é wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:

People keep mentioning Zebo but for all round game I think Gilroy is on a par and Kearney jr slightly better than both.

Think its hard to compare them really. Kearney is older, and Gilroy for all his youth has had a lot more gametime than the other two.

Kearney (DOB June '89). Magners: 34 (26 starts) 2179 mins (6 tries). HCup 4 starts (303 mins) 0 tries.
Total rugby mins: 2482. 6 tries. 1 try ever 4 games approx.

Zebo (DOB Mar '90). Magners: 23 (15 starts) 1250 mins (7 tries). Hcup 4 starts (320 mins) 3 tries.
Total rugby mins: 1570. 10 tries. 1 try ever 1.5 games approx.

Gilroy (DOB Mar '91). Magners: 29 (29 starts). 2259 mins (11 tries). Hcup 7 (6 starts). 487 mins. 2 tries.
Total rugby mins: 2746 mins. 1 try ever 2 games.

Interview in the Irish times with Zebo today. His older sister is looking to make the Olympics this year for the 400 metres.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0328/1224314003718.html

I haven't seen enough of Gilroy to judge him but by all accounts he's a very good prospect.

I think Zebo is a better finisher than Kearney and has him beat for pace but Kearney is better defensively and has more awareness when he has the ball.

I've only seen Kearney jr play on the wing but Tony Ward has said that he's destined to be a fullback.(he also said that about Luke Fitz so I don't know what it's worth)

If I was judging them as wingers say right now Kearney is slightly better but Zebo has more potential,he can really be top class if he continues to develop like he has this season.

by SecretFly Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:37 am

Zebo is an out and out winger. Just has those fast reflexes, fast twitch muscles... gets so much pleasure from breaking away and chasing in for a try.

Kearney is a completely different character. Determined eyes - serious work-like attitude, reading games more strategically, prepared to play low key as well as instigate a creative flourish.

No, I don't see Kearney's future on the wing (if he gets one!) I see him drifting in not back. I see a lot of potential in him but then that's all the two of them have right now - potential. It's time they and a few others were given opportunities to prove or disprove.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:59 am

Gilroy hasn't had the best season. Hes done ok but has lacked the zip of last year and has been on the periphery of games too much. He's an exciting talent but I don't think hes ready to step up beyond Wolfhounds or provincial level just yet. His strike rate and experience is very impressive for one so young and hes strong physically though.

Zebo and Kearney jr look ready to step up right now imo. Kearney reads the game so well and Zebo has more raw pace than any Irish back I've seen since Geoghegan.

by geoff998rugby Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:31 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote: I haven't seen enough of Gilroy to judge him but by all accounts he's a very good prospect.

I think Zebo is a better finisher than Kearney and has him beat for pace but Kearney is better defensively and has more awareness when he has the ball.

Actually that is a good point.

For the record I reckon Gilroy is better defensively than Zebo but not as good as Kearney.
I also reckon he is a better finisher than Kearney but not as good as Zebo.

The perfect compromise Very Happy

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:59 pm

We could potentially end up with them as our back three in the future, with the two Kearneys fighting for the 15 spot.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:04 pm

Why is it if a player is playing well in a position, there is the desire to see him play one position inside. Fullback to wing, wing to outside centre. If they´re playing well, why not keep them there? We don´t say to a prop, you´re playing well, why don´t you go to hooker son.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:12 pm

Its the Irish way Kia. We like to convert our centres to wingers and our wingers to centre.

10's should move to 12, 6's to 7's and 7's to 6. Bench players should be average in at least 3 positions but good at none.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:16 pm

Some players I think end up playing positions they aren't suited to, but then they can also end up playing many positions and never find out which they are best at. An example for me would be Fitzgerald. Personally, I don't think he is suited to wing, as his strike rate is rather poor and he hasn't got the raw pace needed. However, I think his game is perfect for a 13, as his creativity and guile would really shine there.

by SecretFly Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:22 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Why is it if a player is playing well in a position, there is the desire to see him play one position inside. Fullback to wing, wing to outside centre. If they´re playing well, why not keep them there? We don´t say to a prop, you´re playing well, why don´t you go to hooker son.

1. Not all players keep the positions they played at school. (So, if you continue that along the career path - not all players need to have one position slotted out for them at school level and be forced to play it for the rest of their careers)

2. If Ireland played to their strengths they'd probably have no props at all and about 5 wingers! Sometimes needs must. You identify a players skills from watching him play in one position and come to the conclusion that he might excel in another position. That can sometimes solve two problems - lack of depth in the position you think he might suit, and allowing a highly skilled player to contribute when the position he naturally plays is already spoken for.

In the end, it's trying to find room for players who prove they could/have the potential to cut it in another position.

by Sin é Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:22 pm

Wayne Smith's review. He has the opposite view to you rods, Ireland a spent force without BOD & POC, Scotland not at the races! He finishes off the piece with "there is only so much the coaches can do"?

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/177-why-france-have-become-so-dull-by-wayne-smith

Following his review of England’s Six Nations Wayne Smith now looks at the progress, or regress, of France, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy.

France
It is becoming the same old story with France. The national team is reflecting the rugby played by the Top 14. French club rugby has employed a safety first approach for some years now and so it is no surprise to see France play the same way.

The flair is being drained from their game. Maybe Marc Lievremont had more of an idealistic approach, but he had so little time with the players that he was unable to change the culture. Saint Andre is less adventurous than Lievremont. The conservative decision making engrained at the clubs, is evident in France’s Six Nations performance.

At times it was hard to fathom what Saint Andre’s philosophy really was. How does he select Clement Poitrenaud and Lionel Beauxis in the same team. They are total opposites. One is a free spirit, at times a little crazy, the other is a kicking automaton. I don’t see the game plan.

France needs a style of rugby that will motivate the players. They needs some joie de vivre back into the game. But how to achieve that without the alignment of the Top 14 coaches? It is difficult. France is being stifled by their club rugby and it is hard to see a way out.

Ireland

Declan Kidney had been able to transfer the drive and passion of Leinster, Munster and even Ulster into the national team. He coached Munster with a passion, but the national team is deteriorating. Players are ageing and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?

Wales

Warren Gatland has a clear selection strategy based on size and speed. It is curious that several of these players have come through an unsuccessful under-20 team, but Gatland is obviously picking out the right ones. North, Cuthbert, Priestland, Davies and Halfpenny are going to be around for years. They are big players, physically and athletically. Now they need to start beating southern hemisphere sides on a regular basis.

Scotland and Italy

The style of Scotland’s game, particularly early on, was outstanding. They are coached well. They have some great young players such as Denton, Gray, Hogg, but they have an issue scoring tries. They make simple tasks look difficult. By the time of the final match against Italy, Scotland had gone. Italy tried to expand their game early on, but you can’t invent players who don’t exist. Their old Roman virtues took them through in the end. But both teams have a long way to go before they compete regularly with the other four. Towards the end, Italy were whacked by a creaking Ireland team and Scotland, who had chances to knock over both France and England, looked dreadful in that final game. There is only so much coaches can do.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:37 pm

Sin é wrote:Wayne Smith's review. He has the opposite view to you rods

He's obviously chatting bollix then Very Happy

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:57 pm

Sin, Smith says "there is only so much coaches can do" under the Scotland section. Ireland have an outdated, conservative game-plan, some useless players who seem undroppable, and some very talented players who are either being wasted, or in the case of Bowe/Kearney, saving our asses. Do the players come up with the game-plan/tactics? Do the players select the team? Do they play well for their province and not for their country? Think about it. Your opinion seems warped by Kidney's success at Munster.

by geoff998rugby Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Mucking players about positionally is the bane of Irish rugby.

by ME-109 Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:59 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, Smith says "there is only so much coaches can do" under the Scotland section. Ireland have an outdated, conservative game-plan, some useless players who seem undroppable, and some very talented players who are either being wasted, or in the case of Bowe/Kearney, saving our asses. Do the players come up with the game-plan/tactics? Do the players select the team? Do they play well for their province and not for their country? Think about it. Your opinion seems warped by Kidney's success at Munster.

Didnt read that bit in Smiths analysis....

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:03 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:Mucking players about positionally is the bane of Irish rugby.

Don´t worry, Ireland doesn´t have a monopoly on it. Leon MacDonald, Muliaina and Cullen all played outside centre. Sometimes it works like Umaga and Nonu but more often than not it´s a steaming cowpat of an idea.

by Thomond Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:04 pm

I love Zebo, he can make something out of nothing. You can't teach skills like that. He is just electric, reminds me a bit of Cullen at his peak. I wouldn't bring him though, he is solid defensively( but in two superb tackles which arguably stopped tries on Saturday) but he still has to develop.

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:09 pm

Thomond wrote:I love Zebo, he can make something out of nothing. You can't teach skills like that. He is just electric, reminds me a bit of Cullen at his peak. I wouldn't bring him though, he is solid defensively( but in two superb tackles which arguably stopped tries on Saturday) but he still has to develop.

Leo???

I'll get my coat.

by Sin é Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:09 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, Smith says "there is only so much coaches can do" under the Scotland section. Ireland have an outdated, conservative game-plan, some useless players who seem undroppable, and some very talented players who are either being wasted, or in the case of Bowe/Kearney, saving our asses. Do the players come up with the game-plan/tactics? Do the players select the team? Do they play well for their province and not for their country? Think about it. Your opinion seems warped by Kidney's success at Munster.

I know Rory, thats why I said "he finishes off the piece (meaning the blog) with there is only so much a coach can do" which was a point I was robbing in general. There is only so much Kidney can do (particularly with a loosehead playing tighthead)!

Smith doesn't seem to rate Bowe or Kearney very much. He certainly doesn't think they are up to replacing BOD / POC.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:15 pm

I agree with smith there sin.... I can't see either Bowe or Kearney playing international second row.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:23 pm

There´s moving a player inside and then there´s taking the ...

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:09 pm

DOD wrote:
Didnt read that bit in Smiths analysis....

Do read carefully.. The bit Smith said is in quotations, the rest was me acknowledging how bad Kidney has been.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:09 pm

Sin, I didn't even see him mention Bowe or Kearney?? What makes you think he doesn't rate them?

by Sin é Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:50 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, I didn't even see him mention Bowe or Kearney?? What makes you think he doesn't rate them?

He didn't mention kearney or bowe because he doesn't rate them. According to Smith"

"Players are ageing* and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements**. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?"***

*Kearney & Bowe are in their prime
**Kidney is find it difficult to find replacements of adequate standard (according to smith)
***BOD & POC are coming to the end of their careers - he doesn't seem to think there are any worth successors and asks what is Ireland going to do without those two.?

If he rated them, he would say that Kearny & Bowe will would make a similar type contribution to team Ireland as BOD & POC.

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:56 pm

Using that logic he doesn't rate Ryan or Ferris either.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:56 pm

Bowe has quite clearly made a huge contribution to Ireland over the last number of years. Kearney this 6 nations was spectacular, and it took some individual brilliance from the likes of these two to get anything going. There are some very talented players in Ireland atm, and a ton of options in certain positions, but what use is that with the way Ireland are playing atm. When BOD returns, nothing will change.

Kidney is struggling to find the replacements for BOD.. So I'm guessing you are now admitting that Earls isn't good enough? That must be what Smith is saying too. That Earls isn't a very good replacement, nor does he mention Earls. He mustn't rate him.

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