Munster v Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Well what a difference a few days make. Leinster stroll past Munster in Thomond, Ulster cruise past Airioni and now definitely fancy their chances on Sunday and rightly so.

My Munster team if players available would be

1. Wian Du Preez
2. Mike Sheery
3. BJ
4. DOC1
5. POC
6. DR
7. POM
8. Coughlan
9. Murray
10. ROG
11. ZEBO
12. Maifi
13. Earls
14. Hurley
15. Jones

Pretty much picks itself bar hooker and back row. Line out was just so bad that Varley has to pay the price. May not have been all his fault but Sherry has been knocking on the door and deserves a shot at this level.

DOC2 had a solid game but I think the partnership of POC and DOC should stand us well. DR to the back row.

Rodders Ulster team

15 Terblanche
14 Trimble
13 Cave
12 Wallace
11 Gilroy
10 IHumph
9 Pienaar
8 Wannenburg
6 Diack
7 Henry
5 Touhy
4 Muller
3 Afoa
2 Best
1 Court

Rava wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rava wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Geoff he is just Munster biased thats all. He is the same when we play Leinster. A Limerick man who has his colours nailed to the mast but cant find the right tone to pull off biased journalism.

I think calling him sectarian is a bit much.

Thats not a Munster biased article. He is just looking for controversy.

There is one valid point though to be got from it and maybe some of you might explain it to me:

How can an Ulster win do much for Ireland rugby considering that 50% of the key players (5) for Ulster are not Irish qualified (the 5 I think of are Best, Ferris, Afoa, Muller & Pienaar).

How much good psychologically will it do team Ireland (heading off to NZ) on tour - made up of Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray, D Ryan, Peter O'Mahony etc. etc. to be knocked out by Ulster. Ireland can't bring Pienaar or Muller on tour.

And before the accusations of bigotry come in from Geoff, I've said the same thing about Rocky Elsom & Nacewa (BJ Botha in Munster), though in Leinster's defence, Rocky left after a year which worked out well.

Those guys are going to be the backbone of Ulster for years to come. That is not doing Irish rugby any good. Paul Marshall will never be anything more than a super sub.

Best & Ferris are 2 of the 5 Key players. Afoa, Muller, Pienaar are the other 3.

Sin é, as a renowned statistician, even you should know that 2 out of 5 is 40%

Just doing my best to soften the blow a bit - you Ulstermen are a hypersensitive lot!

geoff998rugby wrote:

Next year we could easily be playing with only 1 NIQ player, from positions 6 to 14, in the squad.

Might as well push that to include 15, as Payne is a preject and so not the same 'evil' as being a capped foreign.

Like I said earlier, next season we will be less Wannenberg and Terblanche and yet I don't expect this dissillusioned arguement to end. Or at least they will find some other imaginary reasons to criticise us.

Then again BJ Botha could be considered a Munster key player - without him their scum could be crushed.

Unfortunately he is NIQ so that doesn't fit the theory.

Sin é wrote:
I think of Key players as game changers - Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara for Munster. Ferris & Pienaar for Ulster. Leinster have a few more than what the others have - Rocky (in the past) and BOD & Nacewa are probably the most consistent (Sexton has done it once).

Sin I love you man!

What does this article say about the 18 IQ Ulster players that will line up on Sunday?

Basically its saying "....you know what..... you guys arent nearly good enough to win this one without the NIQ's,"

I would suggest that the NIQ players have benefitted the team without question and has raised standards which can only be a good thing for the long term game in Ireland but come on people surely our IQ players deserve an equal portion of the praise and hence not implied by lazy journalists of being carried by the NIQ's

THis is going to do loads to boost there confidence ahead of the NZ tour

I really don't see what the arguing is about. Farrelly is right.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: How can an Ulster win do much for Ireland rugby considering that 50% of the key players (5) for Ulster are not Irish qualified (the 5 I think of are Best, Ferris, Afoa, Muller & Pienaar).

Those guys are going to be the backbone of Ulster for years to come. That is not doing Irish rugby any good. Paul Marshall will never be anything more than a super sub.

Depends on what you consider key - there is no one more key than Wallace.

At the risk of repeating myself Paul Marshall had had more game time than any other IQ SH,
that includes 2 HC starts.
Muller has one year left on his contract - so not sure how you get years to come from.

Also what good does it do Irish rugby that Munster will start with 2 NIQ props.
Ulster by contrast have to go back a long long way before you find a NIQ LH

Next year we could easily be playing with only 1 NIQ player, from positions 6 to 14, in the squad.

It doesn't do Irish rugby any good with Munster starting two non-Irish props. Both are on shortish contract though and I think Munster have done their bit for Ireland's cause over the years producing props. Heck, there are Munster thighheads in every province in Ireland at the moment!

Paul Marshall will never take the starting jersey from Pienaar though. He will be closing in on his 30s by the time Pienaar leaves.

Its not really the no of IQ players you have, its just that the younger players in Ulster will probably not be able to compete for a start against the likes of Afoa or Pienaar who are in their prime and will be around for a few years yet.

geoff998rugby wrote:Then again BJ Botha could be considered a Munster key player - without him their scum could be crushed.

Unfortunately he is NIQ so that doesn't fit the theory.

Munster's scrum was crushed by Northampton, but due to the influence of Paul O'Connell, we won (well). Thats what I mean about a key player. They just inspire, lead whatever. Munster are a lot poorer without POC. I also think we would have given Leinster a better game last weekend if POC was playing.

Wild Rover wrote:What does this article say about the 18 IQ Ulster players that will line up on Sunday?

Basically its saying "....you know what..... you guys arent nearly good enough to win this one without the NIQ's,"

I would suggest that the NIQ players have benefitted the team without question and has raised standards which can only be a good thing for the long term game in Ireland but come on people surely our IQ players deserve an equal portion of the praise and hence not implied by lazy journalists of being carried by the NIQ's

THis is going to do loads to boost there confidence ahead of the NZ tour

Well, are they good enough to win it without the NIQs?

Remove all the NIQs fro the two teams. Who do you think would win?

If we took all the NIQ's out of the game Ulster would stuff Munster!

BOOM take that Munster!

Ulster Irish XV

1 McCallistar/Court
2 Best
3 Court/Macklin
4 Tuohy
5 Stevenson
6 Ferris
7 Faloon
8 Henry
9 Marshall
10 Humphreys
11 Gilroy
12 Wallace
13 Cave
14 Trimble
15 D'arcy

Sin é wrote:

Wild Rover wrote:What does this article say about the 18 IQ Ulster players that will line up on Sunday?

Basically its saying "....you know what..... you guys arent nearly good enough to win this one without the NIQ's,"

I would suggest that the NIQ players have benefitted the team without question and has raised standards which can only be a good thing for the long term game in Ireland but come on people surely our IQ players deserve an equal portion of the praise and hence not implied by lazy journalists of being carried by the NIQ's

THis is going to do loads to boost there confidence ahead of the NZ tour

Well, are they good enough to win it without the NIQs?

Remove all the NIQs fro the two teams. Who do you think would win?

without the niq's i would still fancy Ulster! we would destroy you at scrum time and touhy/stevenson's line out calls are improving so we could compete at lineout time

And our back department is bursting with young irish talent so think we could definately compete here too

Half backs would be the only position Munster would have a clear edge (

Munster IQ team


1.Horan
2.Sherry
3.Archer
4. Ryan
5.POC
6. POM
7. Wally
8.Coughlan

9.Murray
10. ROG
11.Zebo
12.Keatley/Hanrahan or maybe Johne Murphy at a push
13. Barnes
14. Earls
15. Jones

Not a bad side Ulster would probably take it though.

how you love the Indie - that Farrelly bloke obviously woke in panic having had a dream that Ulster won this one.

that would mean a bunch of second string Saffers would have beaten Munster's finest and what a blow to Ireland

he also mentions the return of Bowe, Wilson and Downey from "abroad" - I have news for you - England is the same country as that bit of land just north of you from which Irish rugby players originate

where do these guys come from ?? - plainly another "little Irelander"

(He also kind of omitted that the majority of Ireland's tries this last 6N were scored by Ulster origin players - though he's probably got a moan about that as well)

Croyman wrote:
he also mentions the return of Bowe, Wilson and Downey from "abroad" - I have news for you - England is the same country as that bit of land just north of you from which Irish rugby players originate

OK lets not drag that one up please!

I find it sad that we're talking about this rather the game itself.

It's an interprovincial Heineken Cup 1/4 ffs!!

Thomond wrote:I really don't see what the arguing is about. Farrelly is right.

You are usually a thoughful poster so I'll assume this is a Wind Up

MMC wrote:I find it sad that we're talking about this rather the game itself.

It's an interprovincial Heineken Cup 1/4 ffs!!

Agreed ..... so which of Ulsters NIQ's will score the winning try?

Sin é wrote: It doesn't do Irish rugby any good with Munster starting two non-Irish props. Both are on shortish contract though

On what basis are The Munster props on shorter contracts than the Ulster contracts i.e. Muller has a year to go.

To rinse and repeat. Ulster have not has a NIE LH for many many years, next year between 6 and 14 we may only have 1 NIQ player on the books. The following year you may be able to extend that to 4 to 14.
As for those NIQ players currently playing for Ulster which youngsters are being held back

roddersm wrote:If we took all the NIQ's out of the game Ulster would stuff Munster!

BOOM take that Munster!

Ulster Irish XV

1 McCallistar/Court
2 Best
3 Court/Macklin
4 Tuohy
5 Stevenson
6 Ferris
7 Faloon
8 Henry
9 Marshall
10 Humphreys
11 Gilroy
12 Wallace
13 Cave
14 Trimble
15 D'arcy

That is a heck of a team Rodders! We'll drop our NIQs if you do Munster!

geoff998rugby wrote:

Thomond wrote:I really don't see what the arguing is about. Farrelly is right.

You are usually a thoughful poster so I'll assume this is a Wind Up

It is, Munster's NIQs are as important to them as Ulster's are. We would be fecked without BJ and Du Preez. We can cope without some alright but need our two props the most.

The Ulster team here lost to Munster in Ravenhill last season.

Munster: S Deasy; D Howlett , J Murphy, I Dineen, D Hurley; P Warwick, P Stringer; W du Preez, D Varley, J Hayes; B Holland, I Nagle; A Quinlan, N Ronan, J Coughlan. Replacements: P O'Mahony for Quinlan (19 mins); S Zebo for Denis Hurley (60 mins); T ODonnell for O'Mahony (71 mins); M Sherry for Varley (74 mins); Darragh Hurley for du Preez (75 mins).

Ulster: A D'Arcy; M McCrea, I Whitten, N Spence, D McIlwaine; I Humphreys, R Pienaar; P McAllister, N Brady, B Young, J Muller (capt), T Barker, P Wannenburg, W Faloon, R Diack. Replacements: D Tuohy for Barker (16-26 mins); L Marshall for McCrea (27 mins); J Cronin for McAllister (52 mins); C Henry for Diack (56 mins); Tuohy for Barker (65 mins).

replace Howlett with Zebo (on the bench), Warwick with ROG, Wian with D Hurley.
Anyone want to do the replacements for Ulster?

Sin é wrote:The Ulster team here lost to Munster in Ravenhill last season.

Munster: S Deasy; D Howlett , J Murphy, I Dineen, D Hurley; P Warwick, P Stringer; W du Preez, D Varley, J Hayes; B Holland, I Nagle; A Quinlan, N Ronan, J Coughlan. Replacements: P O'Mahony for Quinlan (19 mins); S Zebo for Denis Hurley (60 mins); T ODonnell for O'Mahony (71 mins); M Sherry for Varley (74 mins); Darragh Hurley for du Preez (75 mins).

Ulster: A D'Arcy; M McCrea, I Whitten, N Spence, D McIlwaine; I Humphreys, R Pienaar; P McAllister, N Brady, B Young, J Muller (capt), T Barker, P Wannenburg, W Faloon, R Diack. Replacements: D Tuohy for Barker (16-26 mins); L Marshall for McCrea (27 mins); J Cronin for McAllister (52 mins); C Henry for Diack (56 mins); Tuohy for Barker (65 mins).

replace Howlett with Zebo (on the bench), Warwick with ROG, Wian with D Hurley.
Anyone want to do the replacements for Ulster?

Straight forward really:- swap Muller for Tuohy, Pienaar for Marshall (If both played for any other province would be playing for Ireland right now) and Wannenburg for a Mr Stephen Ferris. Not to bad me thinks.

Next year we have even more choice with Bowe and Wilson.

ignore

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: It doesn't do Irish rugby any good with Munster starting two non-Irish props. Both are on shortish contract though

On what basis are The Munster props on shorter contracts than the Ulster contracts i.e. Muller has a year to go.

To rinse and repeat. Ulster have not has a NIE LH for many many years, next year between 6 and 14 we may only have 1 NIQ player on the books. The following year you may be able to extend that to 4 to 14.
As for those NIQ players currently playing for Ulster which youngsters are being held back

Isn't Afoa here for 3 seasons? Muller will have been with Ulster for 3 seasons? Court was brought in - he wasn't developed in Ulster.

Maybe try and look at this from this point of view - if Munster had Ruan Pienaar, Ireland would not have Conor Murray.

If Ulster had Mafi, Ireland wouldn't have Paddy Wallace

Sin é wrote:The Ulster team here lost to Munster in Ravenhill last season.

Munster: S Deasy; D Howlett , J Murphy, I Dineen, D Hurley; P Warwick, P Stringer; W du Preez, D Varley, J Hayes; B Holland, I Nagle; A Quinlan, N Ronan, J Coughlan. Replacements: P O'Mahony for Quinlan (19 mins); S Zebo for Denis Hurley (60 mins); T ODonnell for O'Mahony (71 mins); M Sherry for Varley (74 mins); Darragh Hurley for du Preez (75 mins).

Ulster: A D'Arcy; M McCrea, I Whitten, N Spence, D McIlwaine; I Humphreys, R Pienaar; P McAllister, N Brady, B Young, J Muller (capt), T Barker, P Wannenburg, W Faloon, R Diack. Replacements: D Tuohy for Barker (16-26 mins); L Marshall for McCrea (27 mins); J Cronin for McAllister (52 mins); C Henry for Diack (56 mins); Tuohy for Barker (65 mins).

replace Howlett with Zebo (on the bench), Warwick with ROG, Wian with D Hurley.
Anyone want to do the replacements for Ulster?

IF Ulster were to pick their best 15 where all players were IQ only D'Arcy, Faloon and Humphreys would make the team - that is a seriously weak outfit.

rodders

sorry - just he seemed to be lumping England in with New Zealand or anywhere else in the world - it's really not very far away and Ryanair could even be thought of as an Irish of getting there

only closeness I was referring to - nothing political

anyway - I wouldn't regard his article as serious or worthy of any comment

although still think he wasn't too keen to point to::

Ulster origin tries in 6N - 8

Leinster - 2
Munster - 1

so one might argue that Ulster players are contributing most of Ireland's tries then an Ulster victory might be a good thing

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: It doesn't do Irish rugby any good with Munster starting two non-Irish props. Both are on shortish contract though

On what basis are The Munster props on shorter contracts than the Ulster contracts i.e. Muller has a year to go.

To rinse and repeat. Ulster have not has a NIE LH for many many years, next year between 6 and 14 we may only have 1 NIQ player on the books. The following year you may be able to extend that to 4 to 14.
As for those NIQ players currently playing for Ulster which youngsters are being held back

Isn't Afoa here for 3 seasons? Muller will have been with Ulster for 3 seasons? Court was brought in - he wasn't developed in Ulster.

Maybe try and look at this from this point of view - if Munster had Ruan Pienaar, Ireland would not have Conor Murray.

I don't really get the point of that.

With regard to Pienaar being at Munster, it would have been a blessing if he had. It would have meant TOL wouldn't have played for Ireland

Sin é wrote: Maybe try and look at this from this point of view - if Munster had Ruan Pienaar, Ireland would not have Conor Murray.

If my auntie had balls she be my Uncle - what point are you trying to make ?
If Ulster had Conor Murray we would not have signed Pienaer.

I repeat which IQ players are being help back by Ulster playing NIQ players - one name will do

Thomond wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Thomond wrote:I really don't see what the arguing is about. Farrelly is right.

You are usually a thoughful poster so I'll assume this is a Wind Up

It is, Munster's NIQs are as important to them as Ulster's are. We would be fecked without BJ and Du Preez. We can cope without some alright but need our two props the most.

Munster v Ulster Squad: Johne Murphy, Ian Keatley, Tomas O’Leary, Felix Jones, Denis Hurley, Keith Earls, Lifeimi Mafi, Simon Zebo, Ronan O’Gara, Conor Murray, Danny Barnes, Duncan Williams, Scott Deasy, David Wallace, Donnacha O’Callaghan, Stephen Archer, Marcus Horan, Damien Varley, James Coughlan, Tommy O’Donnell, Peter O’Mahony, Paul O’Connell, Donnacha Ryan, BJ Botha, Mike Sherry, Wian Du Preez, Mick O’Driscoll, Billy Holland, John Ryan, Denis Fogarty.

The highlighted players are playing with the 'A' squad on Friday.

The main things it tells us are that Murray is fit (only 2 SH's retained) and that Hurley is fit (Barnes not needed).

Fantastic news about Murray really as he had been the biggest doubt at the beginning of the week (or so I'd heard).

Here is something to consider. D'Arcy is a very dangerous attacking full back, and though we lose a bit of solidity, he is a more than able replacement. Pienaar goes and we have Marshall. Another very dangerous player. Muller goes, we have the vastly improved Stevenson. Wannenburg goes and we bring in Faloon and move Henry to 8. Under Afoa we have the underrated Fitzpatrick and a great prospect in Adam Macklin. We may not be just as good without the NIQs, but we still have very adequate replacements.

As for Munster, next to Du Preez and Botha, they have Horan and Archer. That is pretty catastrophic, and Munster would suffer greatly if these two started. I think Munster rely on their foreigners, a lot more than Ulster have to rely on theirs. Plus, next to Mafi, who is the next decent 12? Hanrahan who is the same as Marshall, talented but inexperienced.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17615244

Looks like Ferris will be named in the starting line up to give him time to recover. Doesn't sound good though.

Muller says O'Connell is possibly the best lock he's played against. High praise indeed considering Mullers experience.

Does anyone think that the fact Brian McLaughlin is moving sideways at the end of the season will have any effect on this game?

I read he was saying about how Munster could expect all out war

Can the Ulster men move heaven and earth to deliever the win for their coach

I've seen the term "moving sideways". However I doubt McLaughlin sees it that way.

It is very much a demotion for him and I suspect he wants to go out with a bang.

roddersm wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17615244

Looks like Ferris will be named in the starting line up to give him time to recover. Doesn't sound good though.

Muller says O'Connell is possibly the best lock he's played against. High praise indeed considering Mullers experience.

rodders seen Ferris saying this morning saying he was in the swimming pool and the ankles holding up so far

just needs to up the intensity probably to see if its up to playing

CMON STEPHEN!!!

I'm waiting to see if he's fit before I put money on Ulster for the tournament - I still think we CAN win without him, but I think we WILL win with him.

It won't be much good to use though if Ferris goes out unfit, and wrecks himself further and for longer. If he isn't fully fit we would be better playing Henry, Faloon and Wannenburg for the Munster game. If we win, Ferris should be fully fit for next game.

Wild Rover wrote:Does anyone think that the fact Brian McLaughlin is moving sideways at the end of the season will have any effect on this game?

Not really no. I don't think anyone will be looking or thinking beyond this game.

In terms of extra motivation for our team and BM... I doubt they need any.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: It doesn't do Irish rugby any good with Munster starting two non-Irish props. Both are on shortish contract though

On what basis are The Munster props on shorter contracts than the Ulster contracts i.e. Muller has a year to go.

To rinse and repeat. Ulster have not has a NIE LH for many many years, next year between 6 and 14 we may only have 1 NIQ player on the books. The following year you may be able to extend that to 4 to 14.
As for those NIQ players currently playing for Ulster which youngsters are being held back

Botha is on a 2 year contract. Afoa got a 3 year one (after Botha being with Ulster for 3 seasons). 6 seasons with NIQ tighthead first choice prop!

Wian was emergency cover initially for Horan when he got ill. Then, when Darragh Hurley got injured he was kept on. Hurley is a good prop, just injury prone (and may have to retire the way things are looking).

The IRFU made a mess of Buckley's contract negotiations (doing something similar now with Luke Fitz). Munster would have kept Buckley and while he wouldn't have been first choice, he would have allowed Stephen Archer a bit more time to develop.

Not too sure if any of them are being held back (you don't really know unless they are tried). Murray is 22 and has had to deal with big games in his career so far as a starter. If Pienaar was at Munster, he would have started and we would never know if he was up to it. Its not just the skills, its the big game temperment as well. We'll never really know about Marshall unless Humphreys is dropped or Pienaar gets injured, as otherwise Pienaar will be the one to start.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It won't be much good to use though if Ferris goes out unfit, and wrecks himself further and for longer. If he isn't fully fit we would be better playing Henry, Faloon and Wannenburg for the Munster game. If we win, Ferris should be fully fit for next game.

Agree Rory. It would also be a huge pyshcological blow if Ferris starts and has to come off early. Its a huge gamble but he is a special player.

As Geoff has probably pointed out about 15 times now, Marshall has had more game time than any other 9 in Ireland.

roddersm wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17615244

Looks like Ferris will be named in the starting line up to give him time to recover. Doesn't sound good though.

Muller says O'Connell is possibly the best lock he's played against. High praise indeed considering Mullers experience.

Matfield said the same thing (and he has played 110 caps for SA)!

O'Connell rates Fabian Pelous as the best lock he ever played against.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As Geoff has probably pointed out about 15 times now, Marshall has had more game time than any other 9 in Ireland.

Its the quality, not the quantity. Starting against Aironi away isn't the same as starting against France in Paris.

Yeah, so the quality he shows coming off the bench in those big games, should be considered too then. Since it is the quality, not the quantity you want to look at. He is a fantastic impact player.

I love how Marshall is suddenly good enough for Ireland when there's a Saffer ahead of him. I no more want to see his loopy pass and headless chicken impression in a green shirt than I do O'Learys. And I love the guy, a truly passionate Ulsterman. But the likes of him, Willie Faloon and Ian Whitten are miles off an Ireland place. And Farrelly knows it because if they were starting for Ulster he'd be writing the articles saying they aren't good enough for Ireland.

The funniest part of that article is where the caption says Keith Esrls didn;t have to compete with NIQ players for his spot in Munster. When he came through they had two NIQ centres and an NIQ wing.

Or maybe Marshall has just improved?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, so the quality he shows coming off the bench in those big games, should be considered too then. Since it is the quality, not the quantity you want to look at. He is a fantastic impact player.

Which is how I've described him - a supersub. We'll never know if he can be anything more than that.

Plus in the games small Paul has started he hasn't really impressed me, his passing was off etc etc,

When he comes on as a sub his fresh darting runs work better against tired defenders, and since he's fresher his passing is sharper.

Small Paul I think is a great impact sub, while nobody wants to be an impact sub their are some whos playing makes them one, Paul is one of these. Either a great impact sub or about average player.

Notch wrote:I love how Marshall is suddenly good enough for Ireland when there's a Saffer ahead of him. I no more want to see his loopy pass and headless chicken impression in a green shirt than I do O'Learys. And I love the guy, a truly passionate Ulsterman. But the likes of him, Willie Faloon and Ian Whitten are miles off an Ireland place. And Farrelly knows it because if they were starting for Ulster he'd be writing the articles saying they aren't good enough for Ireland.

The funniest part of that article is where the caption says Keith Esrls didn;t have to compete with NIQ players for his spot in Munster. When he came through they had two NIQ centres and an NIQ wing.

Lots of people think that Marshall should get a chance with Ireland. He might get a chance with Ireland if he was given a chance with Ulster to start some big games like the one next Sunday.

A better example of what I mean might be Sexton at Leinster. We would never have known if he has got what it takes if Contepomi hadn't got injured.