Is Warburton really that much better than Tipuric?

by Shane_Williams Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Having watched most Ospreys games this season Tipuric has been consistently one the best players when on the pitch. Similarly, all his games for Wales he has impressed. Take the first ten minutes against the Barbarians, I counted 3 if not 4 turnovers by Tipuric alone, I can't imagine what the stats would have been for the whole game. Now, we all know about how brilliant a player Warburton is, i'm not denying it, but I wonder if he weren't the captain whether he would still be starting for Wales. Either way its a bloody close call. Anyway, I suspect people will disagree with me, or at least people who have only seen him play for Wales and not for club. Your thought please.

On another note you could look at trying to form one of the two into an 8 as they are both vastly superior to Faletau, but that probably that wouldn't work as switching players' positions doesn't usually work.

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:39 am

wales606 wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:Don't feel all bad Rory, you've got O'Brien who's more than merely good and an exciting prospect in O'Mahony waiting in the wings. There's also Chris Henry, though I'm not sure if he's a regular 7 or not, and Willie Faloon of whom I've seen and heard very positive things, as outside bets.

Having said that I'm not sure any of them are in the traditional openside 'fetcher' mould and without trying to sound smug (after all you had David Wallace for years whom I rated very highly as a disruptive force at the breakdown) I'll maintain that having a natural 7 is usually of benefit when measured up against a non-traditional 6.5 or a flat out 6 thrown in at openside.

We had this discussion on the SA squad thread. It is actually quite interesting, personally I think that an out-and-out 7 is required for any team looking to dominate the breakdown and turnover stats.

Depends very much on your backrow balance. South africa has been dominant at breakdowns for yonks rarely playing an out and out fetcher.

With the modern game being what it is these days you will find the 7 is only one of the pilferers in the team.

When you look at the Super 15 stats of the top twenty pilferers:

Most Pilfers

1. Liam Gill (Reds) 15 substitute uitility
2. Coenrad Oosthuizen (Cheetahs)10 prop
2. Michael Hooper (Brumbies)10 openside
4. David Pocock (Force)9 openside
5. Luke Braid (Blues)7 openside
6. Matthew Hodgson (Force)6 eighthman
7. Andrew Hore (Highlanders)5 hooker
7. Chris Alcock (Waratahs)5 openside
7. Cobus Grobbelaar (Lions)5 utility
7. Derick Minnie (Lions)5 openside
11. Adam Thomson (Highlanders)4 blindside
11. Deon Fourie (Stormers)4 Hooker
11. Faifili Levave (Hurricanes)4 blindside
11. Heinrich Brussow (Cheetahs)4 openside
11. James Haskell (Highlanders)4 openside
11. Jason Rutledge (Highlanders)4 hooker
11. Karl Lowe (Hurricanes)4 openside
11. Nasi Manu (Highlanders)4 eighthman
11. Rene Ranger (Blues)4 wing
20. Victor Vito (Hurricanes)3 blindside

It is no longer only the openside flanker that pilfers ball, the balance of the pack like the higlanders where they have 5 players in the top 20 is more important.

by wales606 Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:44 am

Knowsit17 wrote:
We had this discussion on the SA squad thread. It is actually quite interesting, personally I think that an out-and-out 7 is required for any team looking to dominate the breakdown and turnover stats.

Strongly agree, 80% of the time this would be the case imo. Players like O'Brien whose physical presence is more emphasized than their ability to snaffle opposition ball can be very effective but only to a certain extent. I felt this was summed up in NZ, a Pocock-less Wallabies side were monstered through the forwards while, might I add to my delight and again trying my best not to sound gloating, the superiority of Warbs on the deck shone through in the QF. Whether the Irish back row would have been as dominant had Pocock been fit we'll never know.

I find two good 7's tend to nullify and cancel each other out, which could well be the case this Saturday between Warbs and Pocock, but a non-traditional 7 will more often than not be at a disadvantage up against a specialist fetcher.

Rory, so how exactly do you define a "natural" openside when people use the term? I classed Wallace in that category because he was disruptive at the breakdown and very capable of turning over opposition ball. Just because he was also good with ball in hand doesn't mean he couldn't be seen as an out-and-out 7 imo, that just made him all the better. When I say non-natural or 6.5, I'm generally thinking of somebody physical but whose primary traits don't include regular steals on the deck.

Im hoping that is the case Saturday and Warbs nullifies Pocock (and maybe get the better of him over 80mins as Pocock played 80 on Tuesday) giving more space for Lydaite and Faletau to work - With Pocock out, I think the Welsh pack will have a big advantage over the Australians, especially with Rees, AWJ and Ryan/Tips to come of the bench.

Hmmm, just a thought - will Howley go for a 5/2 split on the bench? Then he will have both Tips and Ryan to make an impact and Hook covering 10, 12 and 15. It would be a risk, but could really help smash the Aussie pack and Pocock at 60mins if a fresh Tipuric and Jones come on.

by Knowsit17 Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:51 am

True biltong, fetching or pilfering as you call it is no longer reserved exclusi
18999999999999999999999999999999^=)ùmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

by wales606 Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:52 am

Knowsit17 wrote:True biltong, fetching or pilfering as you call it is no longer reserved exclusi
18999999999999999999999999999999^=)ùmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Interesting observation...did you just fall on your keyboard/phone?

by Knowsit17 Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:58 am

Ever leave the room and come back to find the cat has walked all over your keyboard and somehow managed to hit Send? Smile

As I was saying, fetching/pilfering isn't reserved for an openside any more. However, I think that without at least one somewhere in your back row, be it at 6, 7 or 8, you're at a disadvantage unless they make up for it with extra physicality and yes the Saffers usually did this.

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:01 am

knowsit, Bismarck and coenie oosthuizen are great pilferers for their respective teams. And yes we have learn't (thanks to bruce), pilfering is too confusing to us as we don;t understand the rights to the ball interpretation, so rather just ruck the shyte off the ball and stay on your feet. Whistle

by slartibartfast Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:04 am

What people miss of warbs is his first up carrying, something tips doesn't quite impress as much.

Nice position to be in as Tipuric is a player who'd you have confidence in if he came off the bench ie. the opposite feeling you get when hook comes off the bench!

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:07 am

Wallace isn't really known for making turnovers though. He is capable, the same as any back row should be. But it isn't a big strength in his game. He is an all rounder. He is mainly known for his support play and carrying. All 3 should share the breakdown role. As should the rest of the pack, and any backs who are there to compete. It is a myth that the 7 should be the breakdown specialist. It is a team game, and he can't be at every breakdown. IMO a 7 should be first to the breakdown off the set piece, which requires pace. That is as far as it goes for me.

My definition of a "natural" openside, or at least other people's definition since I hate the term, is a breakdown specialist. A player who will follow the ball, and be at the breakdown first whenever he can. That is his primary role. The breakdown is now a key aspect of the game that must be coached in every player. Your support player, regardless of his position, must secure possession. In terms of counter rucking, again, it isn't just the 7 who should do that.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:08 am

Knowsit17 wrote:Ever leave the room and come back to find the cat has walked all over your keyboard and somehow managed to hit Send?

As I was saying, fetching/pilfering isn't reserved for an openside any more. However, I think that without at least one somewhere in your back row, be it at 6, 7 or 8, you're at a disadvantage unless they make up for it with extra physicality and yes the Saffers usually did this.

Give the cat a high five from me!

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:09 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:Ever leave the room and come back to find the cat has walked all over your keyboard and somehow managed to hit Send?

As I was saying, fetching/pilfering isn't reserved for an openside any more. However, I think that without at least one somewhere in your back row, be it at 6, 7 or 8, you're at a disadvantage unless they make up for it with extra physicality and yes the Saffers usually did this.

Give the cat a high five from me!

yeah, he can't spell worth a damn, but are quite the maestro.

Is Warburton really that much better than Tipuric? - Page 2 Smiley-laughing021

by Knowsit17 Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:13 am

Gethin Jenkins has also shown good fetching skills at the breakdown if you want to reference another non-back row pilferer. I'd just feel uncomfortable relying on him to do this at the top level if we didn't have anyone besides. It's an extra job to add to his scrummaging and other front row duties.

And I assume he's not had as much practice and is not as specialized in this department as someone who is in the side specifically for their breakdown presence. In other words I think that a side without a breakdown specialist is usually at a disadvantage against a side that has one or more players who tick this box.

by Knowsit17 Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:17 am

Cat probably dislikes me for the minute as I had to shoo her off my laptop. I'll give her your regards Rory, should cheer her up thumbsup

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:17 am

That depends though. Why would they be at a disadvantage? If you think about it, the only real reason to have a "natural" 7 then would be for counter rucking. Securing possession/support play should be a necessity for all players. The back row in particular should excel at this due to being all rounders, and having the most pace in the pack generally, but it should be required of all players. Same for counter rucking. Why have one player do this when you can have a number of them?

I think people who excel at the breakdown are needed, but not breakdown specialists. If that makes any sense.

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:21 am

I agree rory.

by Shifty Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:23 am

Tips is a lot like Martyn Williams, he is very determined and everywhere. Earlier in the season he had a nasty tendency to get him self sin binned but he has become far more sneaky over the course of the season. He is learning at a rate of nots.

Warburton is more like Colin Charvis to be honest, I see no reason why Sam couldnt be blind side if Lydiate ever got injured. I think were very lucky to have 2 very skilled open sides to choose from.

by wales606 Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:24 am

Generally you need one player to track across and wait for a turnover opportunity - that's what most 7s do - If you give that job specifically to the whole backrow, they are never sure when to ruck and when to wait for the turnovers. The entire pack turn over ball when they see an opportunity, but the 7 is the one who will wait for the opportunity and tend to be the best at taking advantage of it. Gethin and Bismark are very good at taking advantage of opportunities, but neither can spend there whole time waiting for the turnover as they are too busy counter-rucking, scrummaging or securing ball.

by wales606 Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:26 am

AlynDavies wrote:Tips is a lot like Martyn Williams, he is very determined and everywhere. Earlier in the season he had a nasty tendency to get him self sin binned but he has become far more sneaky over the course of the season. He is learning at a rate of nots.

Warburton is more like Colin Charvis to be honest, I see no reason why Sam couldnt be blind side if Lydiate ever got injured. I think were very lucky to have 2 very skilled open sides to choose from.

I think Warburton would be wasted at blindside. He played there for a while with Martyn at 7 for the Blues (vs Dragons this year even) but is never as effective there as he is at 7.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:53 am

wales606 wrote:Generally you need one player to track across and wait for a turnover opportunity - that's what most 7s do - If you give that job specifically to the whole backrow, they are never sure when to ruck and when to wait for the turnovers. The entire pack turn over ball when they see an opportunity, but the 7 is the one who will wait for the opportunity and tend to be the best at taking advantage of it. Gethin and Bismark are very good at taking advantage of opportunities, but neither can spend there whole time waiting for the turnover as they are too busy counter-rucking, scrummaging or securing ball.

It is a waste of a player to have one person with the role of waiting for turnover opportunities. I don't think Warburton/McCaw do that anyway. They know when to take the opportunity, but in the meantime you won't see them waiting, you will see them making hits and forming the defensive line. You say they wouldn't know when to ruck and when to make turnovers, but to make a turnover you have to be the defender right? So in other words you would already be committing few men to the ruck. You have the tackler, the fringe defence, and the guys who are counter rucking (usually one or at most two guys). When you are the defence, the only reason to be in the ruck IS to make a turnover or slow the ball down. There would be no confusion there.

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:59 am

The thinking about turn over is that one player cannot be everywhere, these days it is the job of the tackle assist, whoever he may be to realease the player that is tackled in time to be ready to attack the ball as soon as the tackler has brought the player to ground.

There is no way the openside flanker can be at every tackle or ruck. If you are bargaining on that you may only have the opportunity to attack every second phase.

by bedfordwelsh Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:37 am

At the moment then yes I would say Warburton is better than Tipuric both in the playing ense and in the way he has taken to the captaincy.

That said injuries and dips in form happen, you only habe to look at 05 in the fact that Duncan Jones was our then 1st choice prop, he got injured Jenkins stepped in and has not looked back since.

Tipuric will have plenty of chances to play for Wales and its great that he is ther to keep Warburton on his toes.

by maestegmafia Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:08 am

Great thread guys, encompassed many interesting tangents on opensides.

Point one)

Toby Faletau is the most natural open forward in the welsh backrow, he is an invaluable link to Wales current success. He is in the right places all the time to make things go forward and most importantly, to stop them going back ward.

Point two). Warbs is the more influential player out he and Tips. But Tips is a very classy player, though in the modern game is to a degree a bit of a luxury player, Wales need a dogmatic seven like Warbs at the moment.

by Guest Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:10 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Faletau needs to impose himself on the field more in the same way he does for the Dragons. He has serious talent, but he was not as good as his competition at 8 in the 6 nations. As for Warburton, he played 6 to accommodate Williams in his early career for the Cardiff Blues, and they looked good together. He switched to 7 later in his career and was described as a "6.5". Also, Tipuric has a similar game to Williams. Maybe that is something to think about.

Cue Dreamer telling me off.

You're very lucky I can't get on here properly when I'm at work! warning

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:17 am

biltongbek wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

And still you feel the need to employ James Haskell?

Sorry PSW, you need to have a dig elsewhere, it ain't SA who employed him.

Sorry of course he didnt sign for Saracens yet Whistle

by maestegmafia Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:22 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Faletau needs to impose himself on the field more in the same way he does for the Dragons. He has serious talent, but he was not as good as his competition at 8 in the 6 nations. As for Warburton, he played 6 to accommodate Williams in his early career for the Cardiff Blues, and they looked good together. He switched to 7 later in his career and was described as a "6.5". Also, Tipuric has a similar game to Williams. Maybe that is something to think about.

Cue Dreamer telling me off.

Gallagher, what a load of cods wallop...!

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:22 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

And still you feel the need to employ James Haskell?

Sorry PSW, you need to have a dig elsewhere, it ain't SA who employed him.

Sorry of course he didnt sign for Saracens yet

Not us either mate, when you play for Saracens the only country you qualify for is England. Whistle

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:50 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Wales need a dogmatic seven like Warbs at the moment.

Dogmatic? Are you sure?

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:39 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Wales need a dogmatic seven like Warbs at the moment.

Dogmatic? Are you sure?

Doesn't Obelix have a dog named dogmatix? Whistle

by munkian Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:50 pm

biltongbek wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Wales need a dogmatic seven like Warbs at the moment.

Dogmatic? Are you sure?

Doesn't Obelix have a dog named dogmatix?

Wasn't Bismark a ship ?

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:55 pm

munkian wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Wales need a dogmatic seven like Warbs at the moment.

Dogmatic? Are you sure?

Doesn't Obelix have a dog named dogmatix?

Wasn't Bismark a ship ?

Battleship.

Is Warburton really that much better than Tipuric? - Page 2 Smiley-rpg028

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:09 pm

Well it was a person, then a battleship, then a person again. It's a kind of magic trick.

by munkian Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:22 pm

Like a Transformer. Pitty Brew cant transform into an International standard winger

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:31 pm

Brew's Droop.

by munkian Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:38 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Brew's Droop.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:40 pm

The Acid test for Warburton since the RWC will be Pockock. Rennie really did a number on him on Tuesday at the breakdown winning a brace of turnovers, making 22 tackles and missing 0.

I Made comments during the RWC that Warburton was one of the best 7s I have ever seen. Particularly in the game against South Africa where he made an incredible ammount of Turnovers and seemed to draw penalties out of thin air, he was simply brilliant.

Sadly he wasn't fit in the 6N and this will be a big test for him. Tipuric is certainly rapping on the door for the Wales 7 shirt and it's up to Warburton to answer that call. If Warbs isn't 100% or shown not to be at his best will Tipuric get the nod for the 2nd test?

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:48 pm

I think Warburton's got the nod for his qualities as a leader as much as for his ability as a player. I can understand that.

by TycroesOsprey Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:35 pm

biltongbek wrote:
munkian wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Wales need a dogmatic seven like Warbs at the moment.

Dogmatic? Are you sure?

Doesn't Obelix have a dog named dogmatix?

Wasn't Bismark a ship ?

Battleship.

Named after the German Chancellor who screwed the French in the 1870s and unified Germany. Rolling Eyes

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:16 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Faletau needs to impose himself on the field more in the same way he does for the Dragons. He has serious talent, but he was not as good as his competition at 8 in the 6 nations. As for Warburton, he played 6 to accommodate Williams in his early career for the Cardiff Blues, and they looked good together. He switched to 7 later in his career and was described as a "6.5". Also, Tipuric has a similar game to Williams. Maybe that is something to think about.

Cue Dreamer telling me off.

Gallagher, what a load of cods wallop...!

What do you not agree with? I think it is obvious that Faletau has a MUCH bigger impact for the Dragons than he does playing for Wales. Warburton started his career at 8, before moving to 6 alongside Williams. Eventually he played 7, and was described firstly as a "6.5" playing at 7. It was after he gained experience in the position he became an established openside.

by wales606 Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:19 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Faletau needs to impose himself on the field more in the same way he does for the Dragons. He has serious talent, but he was not as good as his competition at 8 in the 6 nations. As for Warburton, he played 6 to accommodate Williams in his early career for the Cardiff Blues, and they looked good together. He switched to 7 later in his career and was described as a "6.5". Also, Tipuric has a similar game to Williams. Maybe that is something to think about.

Cue Dreamer telling me off.

Gallagher, what a load of cods wallop...!

What do you not agree with? I think it is obvious that Faletau has a MUCH bigger impact for the Dragons than he does playing for Wales. Warburton started his career at 8, before moving to 6 alongside Williams. Eventually he played 7, and was described firstly as a "6.5" playing at 7. It was after he gained experience in the position he became an established openside.

I don't remember Warburton ever being described as a 6.5 by any commentator who knows anything about backrow play.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:33 pm

I do, when he first started playing 7. He played 8, then 6. He was never a 7, but then adapted to the position. At the beginning of his career at 7, he was described as a 6.5. Now he has developed into one of the best 7s in world rugby.

by munkian Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:30 am

Faletau didn't miss a single tackle during the world cup, he's missed a few for the Dragons, justsaying thumbsup

by Rory_Gallagher Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:46 am

Hey you agreed with me yesterday! furious

Anyway, that is sort of my point. Lydiate is supposedly captain tackles for both Dragons and Wales, so Faletau should be allowed more chances in open play rather than in defence. Why is Faletau able to look so good for the Dragons, with a superb running and offloading game, which doesn't really happen internationally? He carries in the tight exchanges at times, but I am talking about his linking up with the backs, his excellent support play, his clean breaks. They just don't happen internationally.

by maestegmafia Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:07 am

I think most people definitely think that Faletau looks pretty damn good for Wales too.

He was picked as many pundits number 8 of the RWC last year...!

by Rory_Gallagher Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:23 am

He has been good, but not exceptional, which is how I would describe him when I have seen him play for the Dragons. In the 6 nations Denton, Morgan and Harinordoquy to name a few were certainly much better. In the RWC I am not sure what pundits named him as their RWC 8, because from what I saw Harinordoquy was one of the most common names in everyone's RWC team.

by Guest Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:34 am

Would love for Faletau to get more opportunities to show his pace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdeD-LLePOE

by maestegmafia Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:07 am

IronMike wrote:Would love for Faletau to get more opportunities to show his pace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdeD-LLePOE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpfnWSehGzo

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:51 pm

Tipuric has a better tackling technique

by wales606 Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:58 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Tipuric has a better tackling technique

He might have a better technique (Im not so sure), but Warburton is the better tackler...just ask Manu Tuilangi

by Guest Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:43 pm

Or Vincent Clerc

by wales606 Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:44 pm

IronMike wrote:Or Vincent Clerc

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