South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

First topic message reminder :

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[fa0019]

I think this is where Lancaster's coahing career really begins.

ENG have a problem in attack, a big one. Currently their attacking platform is at best club level... it wouldn't/doesn't hurt anyone of note.

Tuilagi is an awesome player yet he was receiving the ball near standing still every time.
You need to give him the ball at full pace and cut lines for him to make... not just run at his opposite number and hope he bashes a whole in it.

Farrell is a decent kicker from the tee and is a good tackler but outside of this he is not test standard. In essence, JW offers more, much more ball in hand (kind of says it all really). He needs a lot of work before he is given the playmaker task.

Flood should be drafted in. He is decent with the boot, is't a bad tackler and is a proven playmaker. Thought the Brown experiment did well. You have to play to your opposition & with SA throwing up those bombs you need someone to counter them with deep kicks of your own.

With players like Ashton, Foden & Tuilagi they possess real world class talent... but if you don't utilise their skills then they're by definition, useless.

In the pack also I wonder what Botha is really doing in there. He tries his hardest but he just isn't test calibre. Palmer would be a far better bet for the 2nd test... he is underrated in the loose, in the tackle etc but can he and Parling work a lineout together?

One thing I would worry about though is size.

ENG are not the biggest pack and their game plan and mentality is built around this. Teams like Wales, SA & NZ will not be troubled by this pack.

The props, the locks are all too lightweight. They don't have enough bulk. Its all good have running options but front five players should first do the basics well. They're too trim for test rugby and they will never beat the above 3 sides without adding serious strength into their side. Rowntree needs to have a serious look at his pack and make a plan for his players in terms of their conditioning. This isn't rugby league where every player can be 15st and 6'2. NZ, SA, WAL... their front 5 are perhaps 5kg heavier per man then ENG by the looks of it.

Johnson didn't have the best of games, I didn't think he did badly but if you look at his stats.... ran with the ball 5 times and made 2 metres, missed 23% of his tackles (3/13) and gave away 1 penalty.
Haskell will give you front foot ball, will tackle his heart out and will stand toe to toe with any player. I was impressed with his play in the SR this season... not standout but thats not the game he hs been ordered to play... they've used him as an openside rather than a ball carrier.

I'd take the following if fit (unsure)

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Palmer (if he can work with Parling in lineout... who would be front man?)
Parling
Haskell
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Flood
Foden
Barritt/Tuilagi
Tuilagi/Joseph (i.e. Tulagi should start but can he play 12, if so throw in Joseph at 13).
Ashton
Brown

[Geordie]

Maybe we need to look at Carl Fearns coming in. He's a monster.

We need Garvey / Attwood etc...the engine room just looks light. I dont recall Parling actually making ANY carriers at all. Lawes aggression is needed.

Corbs is Englands heaviest man i believe and i think he missed ...though Marler did ok in his debut in a hostil place.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Beating the Boks would certainly be a major coup for SL. Unfortunately I don’t think he or the current touring team are good enough. The dilemma he has is that we can’t beat them in a muscle tussle but we have to front up and be physical ourselves – otherwise they’ll just beat us up as they did when we met at Twickenham. Uninspiring as it is the Barritt/Manu combo is vital in matching the Boks physicality especially as our SR isn’t quite brutish enough. But we have to inject the creativity that Flood brings to the game. It’s no coincidence that we looked our most dangerous when he was making the decisions. It’s a weakness in SL that he refuses to see that.

And until Morgan can last more than 40mins I would have Haskell to start with Ben coming on for impact. And speaking of impact subs, is there anyone in the world who wouldn’t see that Mears and PDJ have the impact of a sponge pudding – particularly against the strength of the Boks. The bench - another problem area for SL.

Injuries permitting Corbs and Haskell to start with Marler and Morgan as impact. Palmer/Botha and Parling. Youngs/Care and Flood (with Flood pushing the game-plan; what was the point of having Farrell at 10 and Youngs kicking so much – poorly). If we had a fit/competitive winger I’d have Brown and Foden sharing FB – but we don’t, so no change there. JJ on earlier.

[Killer_B_6]

Why are people talking about playing Manu at 12 when he has looked poor there at club level?

We have THREE good AP 12s in the squad. I'd give Allen a shot if Barritt is injured.

[HammerofThunor]

I'd give Allen a go at 12 in the mid-week game. If he does well bring him off early and start him in the test side. I'd also go for the Leicester 9,10, 12 and 13 to start the next test

[fa0019]

I think its because people are looking to accomodate Joseph.

You don't want to drop Tuilagi, Barritt whilst he never lets the side down is limited in attack (in fact he offers barely anything).

[Geordie]

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Botha
5 Palmer
6 Fearns
7 Robshaw
8 Haskell

9 Youngs (Needs to stop kicking as much)
10 Flood
11 Monye (Physical)
12 Allen
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

[Killer_B_6]

I think its because people are looking to accomodate Joseph.

You don't want to drop Tuilagi, Barritt whilst he never lets the side down is limited in attack (in fact he offers barely anything).

For me, it's either Tuilagi or Joseph. If you want JJ, drop Manu. It'd be madness to throw them in at 12 in a huge test match when neither of them have played there regularly.

For me a better way to accomodate both would be to have one on the wing, but have they got the positioning to deal with the inevitable aerial bombardment!

[Zander]

I think its because people are looking to accomodate Joseph.

You don't want to drop Tuilagi, Barritt whilst he never lets the side down is limited in attack (in fact he offers barely anything).

For me, it's either Tuilagi or Joseph. If you want JJ, drop Manu. It'd be madness to throw them in at 12 in a huge test match when neither of them have played there regularly.

For me a better way to accomodate both would be to have one on the wing, but have they got the positioning to deal with the inevitable aerial bombardment!

Joseph has played a bit on the wing when he was younger so maybe he should be put in there. That way we could have both Tuilagi and Joseph.

[fa0019]

Can't really drop Tuilagi... if used properly he is your main man in the backline.

But Barritt & Tuilagi are all brawn & no brains. Its not that much better than Hape & Tindall. In fact I think ENG played better under those 2 then the current batch.

[Hood83]

A couple of years ago i would have earmarked Fearns for a tour like this. Just the sort of raw power that was needed. He then managed to up his work-rate by playing as a flanker and i thought, brilliant, he's going to be a massive talent.

Since then, it looks like his conditioning has deteriorated at an alarming rate. He seems to have lost power, lost his work-rate, lost some bulk and STILL acquired a gut. I know he's been injured at various points, but whoever is Bath's conditioning coach needs a serious reappraisal.

He looked liked he'd have a physique and game like Alberts. On the evidence of the last few times i've seen him, that's pretty unlikely now.

Despite Alberts being too physical for our back-row, i think the main problem came in the front-five. I think we need the bulk of Corbs at scrum-time and a whole new SR. Parling, Botha and Palmer and not physical enough to win a test in SA. I know it's been said, but Lancaster's inability to see the talent of Garvey is more than worrying. We need that ballast, and even if they'd targeted him and smashed him back on the carry, he would have vastly improved our scrum I think.

[Hood83]

Also, agreed with those pointing out Morgan's lack of fitness. At altitude that'll kill us. I'd be tempted to start him and have Haskell come on for the second half. The worry of course is Haskell's lack of control at the base.

[Zander]

Do you think that there might be the chance of calling up Attwood or Garvey if Barritt is sent home due to his facial injury?

[EnglishReign]

On reflection I'd be happy to leave Manu out for an Allen/Joseph combination. We don't need freaky physical specimens to match SA, talent should always outweigh physicality. We need to play smart in the backs to open SA up, and in all honesty they were there for the taking but we kept trying to bosh down the middle.

Next game is at high altitude, gonna be hard enough to breathe let alone win.

[Biltong]

It doesnt matter what changes....we are too underpowered.

Disagree if Aus can win in SA with their pack we can too. We just have to be smarter with how we use the ball if that is possible to do is a completely different question.

But when Oz win in SA they do over power the Boks as a collective and then always score when they have the chance. We can't seem to do either at the moment.

Before PDV OZ only won one match in SA, in PDV's era OZ won 3, they didn't win it because of their pack, they won it due to our pathetic gameplan. This team will not be in the same boat as PDV's team.

Besides, comparing what Wales will do against SA and OZ will do against SA are two entirely different gameplans and sets of players

[Geordie]

On reflection I'd be happy to leave Manu out for an Allen/Joseph combination. We don't need freaky physical specimens to match SA, talent should always outweigh physicality. We need to play smart in the backs to open SA up, and in all honesty they were there for the taking but we kept trying to bosh down the middle.

Next game is at high altitude, gonna be hard enough to breathe let alone win.

But thats the whole point...against the Boks you must match them physically...other wise your in trouble. How people are debating Tuilagi is beyond me.

No one is mentioning the completely annonymous game from Farrell at 10....How on earth can you play a 10 at international v the southern hemishpere teams that cant pass a ball...read the game or have the ability to run with the ball in hand. He can tackle....woop di doo. Are we stuck with the FH template that everyone has to be like Johnny!!! Pah

Also , where was the rampaging runs from Morgan, Johnson, Parling etc???

With out go forward ball the likes of which Ablerts was providing for SA...you're on a hiding to nothing...

[Biltong]

On reflection I'd be happy to leave Manu out for an Allen/Joseph combination. We don't need freaky physical specimens to match SA, talent should always outweigh physicality. We need to play smart in the backs to open SA up, and in all honesty they were there for the taking but we kept trying to bosh down the middle.

Next game is at high altitude, gonna be hard enough to breathe let alone win.

Not that hard to breath up here Englishreign. Just use nasal spray to get those clogged nostrils open, then breath in.....breath out....breath in.....sorry, starting to hyperventilate, now where's my oxygen?

[sirtidychris]

When everyone is fit i would be hoping to see this as a starting line up

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Croft
7 Armitage
8 Morgan

9 Youngs/Care constantly swapping them when they start crabbing and chilling out at the breakdown
10 Flood
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden.

For the next test

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Botha
5 Parling
6 Haskell
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Wade
12 Allen
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden.

[Geordie]

Ok and can i just state that i was dismayed when the squad was announced and Lee Mears was init.....

Let his substituate appearance finally put an end his international career!!!

[englandglory4ever]

Youngs and Farrell weren't good enough.

Youngs is ponderous at the breakdown and his kicking was very poor and incessant. Farrell's passing can't get a back line moving.

Dickson upped the whole tempo and led to the england try.

Dickson and flood to start.

[thomh]

Replacement scrum halves almost always up the tempo though. Youngs looked a lot better when he came on against Ireland.

[EnglishReign]

We said this about Dickson when he came on against Italy in the 6N, but when he starts he isn't the same player. I'd be happy with either Youngs or Care starting.

[Hood83]

Youngs and Farrell weren't good enough.

Youngs is ponderous at the breakdown and his kicking was very poor and incessant. Farrell's passing can't get a back line moving.

Dickson upped the whole tempo and led to the england try.

Dickson and flood to start.

Did you watch the 6Ns - Dickson is slower than erosion, even his supposedly superior pass is loopy. His game management is fine i.e. he's good and pointing at where he wants his forwards to go when he's too knackered to do the basics of getting the ball away.

He is so far from international class it is scary. Frankly all our scrummies have become terrible ditherers. The depressing thing is is that this seems to have happened just as we're developing a team half capable of generating quick ball (for 40 mins at least)

[Barney McGrew did it]

Youngs constant kicking must have been down to the gameplan, altho' why he took that role when Farrell was at FH I don't know - a plan that didn't work SL, altho' that wasn't helped by how poor some of the kicking was. Keep Youngs and bring on Flood to make the decisions, job done.

[LondonTiger]

Dickson and flood to start.

As a Tigers fan I would like Flood coming back with a semblance of confidence. As such please pair him with Care or Youngs, but please not Lee Dickson. Their games do not gel - Flood woul dget slow ball and try and force things, probably ending up injured.

[B91212]

I can't help but think this dithering from our scrum half's in an England thing. Dickson never waits an age behind rucks in his own half for the Saints but did plenty of it the 6N and I can't remember Youngs doing likewise for the Tigers. The only team I ever saw do it in the prem was Saracens so I thought it was a Andy Farrel tactic but he's not there anymore so maybe its a SL plan. Either that or Farrel introduced it and now its become part of the game plan.

[ChequeredJersey]

I can't help but think this dithering from our scrum half's in an England thing. Dickson never waits an age behind rucks in his own half for the Saints but did plenty of it the 6N and I can't remember Youngs doing likewise for the Tigers. The only team I ever saw do it in the prem was Saracens so I thought it was a Andy Farrel tactic but he's not there anymore so maybe its a SL plan. Either that or Farrel introduced it and now its become part of the game plan.

Whatever it is, I hate it. Sarries' gameplan was shown up at the end of the season without players like Burger etc to manage it. Let's play like Leicester or Quins, as they were the Premiership finalists, try-scorers in the AP and make up more of the team. Or Saints, who should have beaten Quins in their SF.

[B91212]

My team for next week.

Corbs, Hartley, Cole
Palmer, Parling
Robshaw, Morgan, Haskell
Care*, Flood
Allen, Tuilagi
Foden, Brown, Ashton (although I would swap Brown and Foden around during play, especially on England attack ball)

Grey, Marler, Botha (I think he would have a better impact of the bench than Palmer) Johnson, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph.

*Ideally Youngs would be my first choice 9 but I think his confidence in white isn't there. Maybe it could return if he is partnered with a running and not kicking 10 like Wilkinson or Farrell.

[B91212]

Whatever it is, I hate it. Sarries' gameplan was shown up at the end of the season without players like Burger etc to manage it. Let's play like Leicester or Quins, as they were the Premiership finalists, try-scorers in the AP and make up more of the team. Or Saints, who should have beaten Quins in their SF.

I agree 100%.

[ChequeredJersey]

Robshaw or Haskell at 7?

[Zander]

I'd say Robshaw, he was good at the breakdown in the first test against South Africa and he has played there for the last 6 games.

[B91212]

I think Haskell has played his best rugby at openside in the last couple of years so as long as he can keep the penalties down then I would have him at 7 and Robshaw at 6. Either way they are both 6.5's anyway so it would be more of a left flanker right flanker type thing. I would want to keep Robshaw as a potential first receiver option like he does for Quins and did a little yesterday as it takes some pressure off the 10 and if done correctly can keep impetus in an attack if the 10 is otherwise engaged. If moving him to 6 would stop this then I would keep him at 7 and have Haskell at blindside.

[ChequeredJersey]

I agree, it just looked like B91212 was playing Robshaw at 6. Not that the number on the shirt matters that much really

[B91212]

I did think yesterday whilst watching the game just how stupid the decision by Johnson and Wells not to pick Robshaw was.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Browns tour is over unfortunately so

Foden back to FB

and either Monye or Wade on the wing..

Real shame for Mike as he had a good start.

[Zander]

Browns tour is over unfortunately so

Foden back to FB

and either Monye or Wade on the wing..

Real shame for Mike as he had a good start.

... or Joseph!

[DaveM]

I may be remembering this wrong, but I thought England's tight 5 was heavier than SAs? In any case, attitude is more important than a bit of weight. I thought England's pack did enough to have won the game if the rest of the game-plan had worked. We could not get field position because the kick chase was shocking, and we struggled to move the ball through midfield until the changes were made.

Given that, any pack was have found itself slowly going backwards as the SA pack, who England will never match physically (nor actually would I want them to, I want England to play a more expansive game) came at us in waves.

Tuilagi start much of the WC playing 12, particularly in defence. The fact he had a bad game for Tigers once at 12 should not preclude him being used there for England. Tuilagi was not going round people as you'd expect a 13 to do, he was going through them. He would provide a serious physical presence at 12 (I worry Allen will struggle in that respect), and that opens up the chance to play JJ, who I believe will have the 13 shirt by the next WC.

How would we be defensively with a Flood, Tuilagi, JJ combo? Not as good as with Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi. However, I agree with Stuart Barnes that we cannot defend our way to victory against this SA side, and the trio I suggest would possess a serious attacking threat.

[Biltong]

Dave your tight five was about 20 KG heavier

[DaveM]

Amazing how perception gets in the way of reality.

[George Carlin]

Not a wumm in the slightest but I have to say that by his standards I thought that Morgan was absolutely dreadful and his replacement with the Brand is an absolute no brainer.

Replacing Tualagi is interesting because he actually played well but crash ball merchants are rarely the way to score against well organised Southern Hemisphere backlines, espcially a centre pairing as experienced the Saffer one. You need a stepper who can pass into space and whilst that might be him in in the future, it's not MT now.

You could do a lot worse that just stick the entire Tigers backline out there. Scotland only really started to look like scoring tries when essentially the entire Edinburgh backline was out there (Blair, Laidlaw, Scott, De Luca, Jones (Visser to follow from tomorrow)). The important thing isn't individuals, it's combinations, as the legendary Rod McQueen was prone to saying.

[Biltong]

But George, Scotland only has two professional outfits, chances for them to have a backline from one team is much more likely than having a backline from one out of 12 clubs.

The question to ask is what does it say about twelve English clubs and their talent if you think one club's backline is better than a combined one?

[LondonTiger]

Dave your tight five was about 20 KG heavier

The quoted weights looked rather dubious when they came up on screen. Admittedly Bismark looked yo have lost weight but the numbers that came up for th eothers looked low.

[propdavid_london]

Why are so many calling for Marler to be axed or dropped to the bench?
I thought that he did reasonably well when making his debut in SA test arena.
The scrum was visibly weaker when PDJ was on as replacement.

We dont need wholesale changes for the 2nd test - the heart and commitment was there to see. Just lacking the cutting edge and more accurate decision making/kicking from the half backs.

My mind - keep the team largely the same -
2 forced changes due to injury - Joseph for Barritt and Goode for Brown.

2 tactical changes - Care for youngs and Flood for Farrell.

You can tweak the bench if needed -
Corbisiero for PDJ
Haskell for Dowson ect.

[Biltong]

Phenomenal

Forwards coach Graham Rowntree said: “I actually think the set-piece was a good area for us going into the last quarter.”

“But the last couple of scrums – they brought on some fresh ‘cattle’ and we struggled to deal with that.”

“That is something we will be working on this week but my overall feel from the forward pack, I was very pleased, particularly with the lineout.”

“I have to make a special mention for Joe Marler and Tom Johnson, I thought their workrate was phenomenal.”

“There are areas to improve on, as always against these big teams, but we will improve in the week.”

[EnglishReign]

Abendanon called up for Brown.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think we should be looking for something like:

1.Marler - he was good on his first cap and Corbs needs to prove his fitness mid week
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha (wish we had a better enforcer)
5.Parling (did well at the lineout and in the loose)
6.Haskell
7.Robshaw (c)
8.Morgan
9.Youngs (still our best 9)
10.Flood
11.Foden
12.Farrell
13.Manu
14.Ashton
15.Goode

Bench: Grey/Youngs, PDJ/Corbs (both dependent on mid week performances), Palmer, Johnson, Care, Allen, Joseph.

Backline similar to the first test in that we have two full backs with the 15 an accomplished kicker. Should give us a firm tactical game and keep the attacking spark at the back. Moving Farrell to 12 as defensively he was alright in the first test and with no Barritt we lack an experienced international option. Farrell played 12 in the JWC last summer alongside a positive distributor and it worked. It worked quite well for the England try last weekend. Let Flood lead the line and spray the ball about and Farrell will tackle and kick. Allen and Jospeh offering plenty of attacking intent off the bench if and when we need it.

[Armchairexpert]

My team for next Saturday.

1 Corbs - Marler did OK but I would use him for impact
2 Hartley - little choice and did OK last weekend
3 Cole - Again very little choice and one of England's strengths
4 Botha - More or an hard edge the Palmer
5 Parling - Ran the lineout well, more carries required
6 Haskell - Need his power, speed and fitness. Always concerned about his control at the base of the scrum, hence the swap with Johnson
7 Robshaw - No question
8 Johnson - Hope I am right in thinking he can play 8 otherwise swap with Haskell, Morgan might be better in parts but is just not fit enough and will be a huge liability up there
9 Dickson - People critisise his slow service but he only does that in defence. On attack he provides fast ball. Not the attacking threat of Care or Youngs but we can't have a scrum half who almost single handedly hands the game to SA through aimless box kicks
10 Flood - We need him taking the ball on the gain line and making the odd half break. Ashton was waiting but it never happened
11 Monye - Strong, physical presence
12 Tuilagi - Crash ball, Crash ball, Crash ball. Doubt we are going to see too many wise passes from him anyway but he can offload and being in the 12 channel should give the backrow more chance to get on his shoulder. He will also occupy 2 or 3 players in that channel allowing Flood to break inside or give the miss pass to.....
13 Joseph - Good outside break, not sure how good his defence is, here's hoping
14 Ashton - not too many options left
15 Foden - Brown out, no brainer

16 - Marler expect him to up his intensity on second cap and coming as a sub
17 - Ummm Youngs. Could be tough if Hartley is injured in the first minute but the only "impact" option
18 - Palmer
19 - Carl Fearns - covers the whole back row
20 - Care
21 - Farrell - Not as impact but we have to cover flyhalf and centre
22 - Goode - not ideal but I'm out of options

I think in reality a lot will depend on the midweek game, who is picked and who is subbed when. (and of course who is injured)

[LondonTiger]

9 Dickson - People critisise his slow service but he only does that in defence. On attack he provides fast ball. Not the attacking threat of Care or Youngs but we can't have a scrum half who almost single handedly hands the game to SA through aimless box kicks
10 Flood - We need him taking the ball on the gain line and making the odd half break. Ashton was waiting but it never happened

If we are going to ask our 10 to stand flat the scrum half has to offer a threat as well to keep the SA defence honest- otherwise the 10 will get hammered every single time. If you want Youngs dropped call up Care, but Dickson and Flood will end up with Flood injured after one too many hits from Alberts.

As to scrum halves and box kicks, I can only assume you did not see the first 50 minutes of England v Ireland in the 6Ns

[bluestonevedder]

9 Dickson - People critisise his slow service but he only does that in defence. On attack he provides fast ball. Not the attacking threat of Care or Youngs but we can't have a scrum half who almost single handedly hands the game to SA through aimless box kicks
10 Flood - We need him taking the ball on the gain line and making the odd half break. Ashton was waiting but it never happened

If we are going to ask our 10 to stand flat the scrum half has to offer a threat as well to keep the SA defence honest- otherwise the 10 will get hammered every single time. If you want Youngs dropped call up Care, but Dickson and Flood will end up with Flood injured after one too many hits from Alberts.

As to scrum halves and box kicks, I can only assume you did not see the first 50 minutes of England v Ireland in the 6Ns

Oh. God. Don't remind me....

[Armchairexpert]

Well true enough IF your only options are a scrum half break or fly half but if you have players attacking the fringes at pace, the likes of Hartley and Monye the defence is still kept honest. This works if players offer themselves, the scrum half is alert to all the options and delivering from the base quickly. You can never generate this sort of threat if the ball sits at the base of the ruck for too long. Time and again you see the runners arrive at the fringes and then hang about or form a small static pod. Why because the ball is stationary for too long.

You have a point in the box kicking, none of our scum halves are exactly brilliant, I'd just like them to do less of it.

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