South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

First topic message reminder :

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[Heaf]

Looking forward to the 4 nations .... Is that what they will be calling it?

[Hood83]

I think you're bang on Biltong. Under PDV, whenever I watched you I thought 'Ok, they've bashed it up, drawn in a few defenders, there's space out wide so they'll probably clear out quickly and get it out to the backs...nope, bashing it up again, more defenders sucked in, no opposition players in the back-line, good thinking, now go wide...nope, bashing it up still, starting to get stopped on the gainline...aaaaaand Pocock, McCaw etc has turned it over.' It just wasn't smart rugby.

What Meyer has already gone back to, something I think you guys do better than anyone, is bringing runners onto the ball at pace. Our first up defence made you look practically invincible, and the ABs won't be so soft, but it's damn impressive to watch and hard to prevent when done that well. What he's also doing is saying you can get it wide to striker runners in the backs when this has created space. I think if you guys could find a little more pace/creativity in the centres, we can all go home and hand you whatever cups you want for the next few years.

I think you're being very generous to us. You're right it's not THAT lightweight, except in the boiler room where it's powder-puff awful. But is isn't physlcal or 'nasty' enough at all. I don't think the players you mention are a bad back line when all on form, and I do think we are creating some useful backs. AB standard? Not even close. That means we need a pack that can smash the ABs and compete with you guys, and we are light years off at the moment in my opinion.

I'd say this though. Considering how outgunned we were, we do show a lot of grit, and that should be to the players credit.

yeah look, I don't think we can emulate the creativity of the All Blacks for sometime yet, however we can emulate their pace, we can probably be more physical than them, overall it will still be two distinctive styles, but if both teams bring their A game it will be brutal and pretty special.

I doubt anyone is going to emulate their creativity for sometime, the French maybe in patches. I think the similarity as you say will be the pace the game is played at. Should be pretty spectacular.

[yappysnap]

I think everyone is expecting Marler to translate his club form straight to international level, and that hasn't happened.

He'll come good though, he has just completed two tests against in my view the most physical team in the world and never let any one down.

[Pal Joey]

He let his hair-dresser down for starters...

[Guest]

Marler just seems one of them players that every one bangs on about but when it comes down to it he ain't that good,

People presume because he looks like a bit of a nutter with his daft hair cut that he must be a right hard nut, but that isn't always the case if it was every 12st chav with crap tattoos and a staffy would be harder than Amir Khan.

The yankey is the future for England along side the Kiwi and packed down in front of the South African.

[RubyGuby]

Meyer made key changes far too early and almost lived to regret it - Du Plessis and Alberts provided the anchor around which everything else developed, without them it was anarchy and poor control from the Saffers. View to the gym provides critical analysis but it is more closer to the truth than some would like to think. This was a 50 pointer that Meyer declined.

[Geordie]

Marler just seems one of them players that every one bangs on about but when it comes down to it he ain't that good,

People presume because he looks like a bit of a nutter with his daft hair cut that he must be a right hard nut, but that isn't always the case if it was every 12st chav with crap tattoos and a staffy would be harder than Amir Khan.

The yankey is the future for England along side the Kiwi and packed down in front of the South African.

Reading all the past posts...you really are a prize plum arent you.

[Geordie]

As for the game:

England have shown they are soft. Dont ge tme wrong...i think most teams would have struggled to cope with SA's pace and power...but we have a serious lack of power in the second row...and the lack of dynamic ball carriers was worrying.

Morgan and MArler were appallingly bad considering that is one of the things they were picked for.

Long term...we need to find:

1) A massive second row combo..
2) A hooker thats tough and carries the ball
3) Some ball carriers in the back row...Robshaw is class...and getting better...it makes Johnsons refusal to play him over Moody a joke.
4) An inside centre.
5) A coach to teach some cajones and aggression....

[Zander]

As for the game:

England have shown they are soft. Dont ge tme wrong...i think most teams would have struggled to cope with SA's pace and power...but we have a serious lack of power in the second row...and the lack of dynamic ball carriers was worrying.

Morgan and MArler were appallingly bad considering that is one of the things they were picked for.

Long term...we need to find:

1) A massive second row combo..
2) A hooker thats tough and carries the ball
3) Some ball carriers in the back row...Robshaw is class...and getting better...it makes Johnsons refusal to play him over Moody a joke.
4) An inside centre.
5) A coach to teach some cajones and aggression....

1) What about Garvey and Kitchener. Parling is too lightweight and Botha just isn't the enforcer we need. Garvey is very heavy and a powerful runner and Kitchener isn't a bad carrier either.
2) Tom Youngs would be the most obvious shout although what about Jamie George? Needs more game time I think.
3) Backrow is a real problem. Robshaw is certain at the moment. Haskell at 8 maybe? What about the long term backrow of 6. Robshaw 7. Kvesic 8. Haskell? At the moment, when fit, I'd go with 6. Lawes 7. Robshaw 8. Haskell.
4) Twelvetrees could make the step up to being an international 12 or how about a younger option in Ryan Mills?
5) Not a clue here as I don't know as much about coaches...

[Guest]

My English mate reckons Lancaster is picking a light weight second row to play a style of rugby which is alien to the English mentality,
he says they desperately need some bulk to do the hard yards and help gain field position, i agree completely with him.

Also interesting comments from Brian Moore on twitter is well,
he wants to know what Englands game plan is?
No pattern or style at all just like in the six nations.

If it wasn't for Ben Youngs quick thinking he says England would have been even more embarrassed, because nothing was created.

But he also went on to blame the ref!!

[robbo277]

My English mate reckons Lancaster is picking a light weight second row to play a style of rugby which is alien to the English mentality,
he says they desperately need some bulk to do the hard yards and help gain field position, i agree completely with him.

Also interesting comments from Brian Moore on twitter is well,
he wants to know what Englands game plan is?
No pattern or style at all just like in the six nations.

If it wasn't for Ben Youngs quick thinking he says England would have been even more embarrassed, because nothing was created.

But he also went on to blame the ref!!

He didn't blame the ref. He criticised the ref over a number of decisions.

https://twitter.com/TAFKAbrianmoore/status/214294167092862976

Yes & even when I criticise them I make it plain that they in the end hardly if ever can be blamed for a loss

[Guest]

He does in his Sunday Times column,
also i don't get what he is moaning about, then every scrum should be reset because every scrumhalf feeds it into the second row with no front row player ever touching the ball , just like youngs did but it come out of the other side.

It is also not worth putting a link to his twitter because i can't view it,he blocked me from it this morning for stating some cold hard facts regarding excuses,
also spinning the young England team line! i asked how many caps and what age are the south african second row?

He took a right huff and saw his ass about it.

[Barney McGrew did it]

I've always liked Brain Moore

[Guest]

I used to like him

[robbo277]

He does in his Sunday Times column,
also i don't get what he is moaning about, then every scrum should be reset because every scrumhalf feeds it into the second row with no front row player ever touching the ball , just like youngs did but it come out of the other side.

It is also not worth putting a link to his twitter because i can't view it,he blocked me from it this morning for stating some cold hard facts regarding excuses,
also spinning the young England team line! i asked how many caps and what age are the south african second row?

He took a right huff and saw his ass about it.

I quoted the tweet I linked too. It was in response to someone asking if he was always critical about referees. And to be fair to him he is always critical about feeding, he tweeted on Saturday (during the Wales game) that the IRB need to either enforce the straight-put in or just get rid of it all together. It's his biggest pet peeve about the game (you can hear it during any 6 Nations game he commentates on).

[Mr Fishpaste]

Meyer made key changes far too early and almost lived to regret it - Du Plessis and Alberts provided the anchor around which everything else developed, without them it was anarchy and poor control from the Saffers. View to the gym provides critical analysis but it is more closer to the truth than some would like to think. This was a 50 pointer that Meyer declined.

Many of the changes were forced: Alberts, Habana, Lambie, Kruger all injured, the only substitutions from choice were the Du Plessis brothers, and I imagine Meyer was substituting them for 'player management' reasons (so as not to play too much rugby etc). However, with all the other injuries, it almost was a problem. Apparently JP Pietersen was also injured, but decided to stay on the field...just as well for the boks!!

[jeffwinger]

Those discussing Lawes as a possible first choice 6, what about Croft? What about Tom Wood? What about Haskell? Blindside is probably the position in which we are strongest, but you'd rather move a first choice lock there, when the second row is our weakest area? Madness. Playing at 5 or 6 wouldn't alter his game, except where he crouches down at scrum time. Having a guy who has the power to push in the second row but can get around the park and tackle like a flanker is a bonus. It'd be like Saracens asking Brits to play at 7 just because he could. You'd be sacrificing a lot and gaining nothing. Croft basically does a second row's job in the lineout anyway.

We need
4. Someone like Attwood or Garvey
5. Lawes
6. Croft/Wood
7. Robshaw/Wood
8. A carrier - Morgan when he is fit/Haskell

and we'd be fine in every aspect of back 5 forward play.

[Geordie]

I like that Jeff...but i would say with Lawes and Garvey you would have to play Croft at 6 for the lineout....

[Zander]

What about Kitchener to run the linout? He is Parling's understudy but he is quite a physical player who carriers well.

[Geordie]

I think this season is going to be huge in the development of the england team. There are so many youngsters going in their second season etc...who have impressed but need to step up.

Players like Kitchener, Attwood, Lawes, Garvey, Slater etc etc all need to stand up and claim a spot that is WIDE open.

Hooker - Lets see how Lindsay and Youngs go. can Jaime George claim the Sarries spot,

How will Billy Twelvetrees go.

Can Wade improve his defensive lapses...

Will the young FH pretenders step up.

The develpopment has began...but this season could be critical...

[yappysnap]

Can we not teach our locks lineout skills? Or is that too much to ask of players? (I have no real idea how difficult it is to learn.)

As to Lawes at 6, a lot of people would say he is more a 6 then a 5. The Saints coaching team are definitely happy to have him play in either position and his game play (big tackles and powerful runs) are more a natural 6's then locks.

With Lawes at 6 we get a real bit of aggression off the back of the scrum and he can still help push.

We also then choose from some other units at lock:
Attwood/Garvey/Slater
Kitchener/Parling/Robson/Day/Green

[Zander]

Also, Lawes would be another good option in the linout.

[timhen]

I like that Jeff...but i would say with Lawes and Garvey you would have to play Croft at 6 for the lineout....

I'm not saying it should be one or the other, but Wood does the same level of work in the lineout for Saints as Croft does for Tigers, I don't think you lose anything significant between the two in that regard. Also, I'm pretty sure that Garvey runs the lineout for LI when Kennedy is injured, which has been a fair bit the last couple of seasons.

[yappysnap]

I think this season is going to be huge in the development of the england team. There are so many youngsters going in their second season etc...who have impressed but need to step up.

Players like Kitchener, Attwood, Lawes, Garvey, Slater etc etc all need to stand up and claim a spot that is WIDE open.

Hooker - Lets see how Lindsay and Youngs go. can Jaime George claim the Sarries spot,

How will Billy Twelvetrees go.

Can Wade improve his defensive lapses...

Will the young FH pretenders step up.

The develpopment has began...but this season could be critical...

Agree with that Geordie.

We have lots of young players with potential we just need some of them to break away from the pack and put their hands up for selection.

Key postions are:
Hooker-George, Youngs, Lindsey, Buchanan
Lock- Too many to mention just need some to stand out
Fly half- Burns, Cips, Clegg and the messiah Ford
Centres- Twelvetrees, Trinder, Casson, Joseph, Lowe, Hopper, Walker

[Geordie]

Can we not teach our locks lineout skills? Or is that too much to ask of players? (I have no real idea how difficult it is to learn.)

As to Lawes at 6, a lot of people would say he is more a 6 then a 5. The Saints coaching team are definitely happy to have him play in either position and his game play (big tackles and powerful runs) are more a natural 6's then locks.

With Lawes at 6 we get a real bit of aggression off the back of the scrum and he can still help push.

We also then choose from some other units at lock:
Attwood/Garvey/Slater
Kitchener/Parling/Robson/Day/Green

Sorry Yappy but i personally feel that this series has proven that even lineout experts MUST be able to dish out the physical stuff aswell...and those two just dont inspire me at all in that area...

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I dont really see fly half as a problem position for england. Flood has been more than adequate. Of course its always good to get someone better, but its hardly a problem position for england.
In the backs its getting a centre pairing who work together and wingers who are capable of receiving the ball and doing something with it.
Forwards hooker and lock is the big concern alongside an 8 who has the basic skillset and can play 80 minutes of rugby

[mbernz]

Flood is a decent FH and the best we've got at the moment but we need better if we have aspirations of more than infrequently beating SH sides and trully challenging for a world cup.

[yappysnap]

I dont really see fly half as a problem position for england. Flood has been more than adequate. Of course its always good to get someone better, but its hardly a problem position for england.
In the backs its getting a centre pairing who work together and wingers who are capable of receiving the ball and doing something with it.
Forwards hooker and lock is the big concern alongside an 8 who has the basic skillset and can play 80 minutes of rugby

The problem is if Flood is injured then we only have Farrel and Hodgson currently. And neither of those are right for England at the moment if we want to play an attacking game. So we really need a good all round option to put his hand up as a competitor to Farrel.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Flood is a decent FH and the best we've got at the moment but we need better if we have aspirations of more than infrequently beating SH sides and trully challenging for a world cup.

Well the wins england have had against sanzars since his debut have been games hes played in. 2 of the 3 wins came with him starting at 10, and the close run game in aus came with him on the bench, the closest game theyve had against nz came with him starting at 10 and the 3 closest games theyve had against SA came with him either starting or on the bench. Compare it to Cirpriani whos two starts against sanzars yielded a 14 point loss to aus and a record 36 point thrashing at home by SA.
England have fared better against sanzars with him than without him, so as much as they have failed to win with any regularity Id point to him as one of the players whos been less of a problem.
Theres other things that need fixing more. Floods shown for Tigers that when hes in a good side hes a brilliant attacking player, and more than adequeat in other aspects of the game. If you look at Englands test tries under Lancaster half have involved flood and youngs, despite them rarely getting more than a few minutes off the bench. I really think these two need to be given a run rather than undermined simply because the pack forgot how to tackle.

[mbernz]

Considering he has been the primary option at FH for a fair number of years it's hardly surprising that he would have featured in the few wins we had. Like I said, he's decent (pretty good at times, a bit too often flaky at critical times over the years), but not a world beating FH and as possibly the most critical position on the field if we want more than that infrequency of wins against the top 3 sides we need someone to show the ability and intense reliability that the very best FHs have (and no, Cipriani isn't that man either). There may well be more pressing areas that need to be sorted, but if we can't find someone better than Flood in the next few years the chance of winning the WC in 2015 or SH tours before then is even smaller.

[yappysnap]

Get a pack as good at international rugby as Leicesters is in the prem and we'll do a lot better, stick with the current pack and it really doesn't matter who's at 10.

[robbo277]

I don't think the half-backs are a problem at all. I really rate Flood as our best option and Youngs looks so much better with him playing. Yes it would be nice if we had someone better really step up, but that's true of all positions. Flood is by far and away the best option at 10 we have and it isn't really a problem position for us at the moment.

Back-up hooker is a problem. I thought Hartley had a good 6 Nations but has been poor on this tour. We need someone to really pressure him and take the spot if he's underperforming. Hartley should be dropped for the third test, but I would not have Mears in the same country as Bismarck Du Plessis, let alone gearing up to start a test match opposite him.

Second row is a problem. It isn't just size, we need more nasty. Harder to measure that, but the South African players have it in spades and we just don't.

Sort those things out and we'll see where we are. We need to get Morgan fit (and Haskell/Waldrom can stop-gap), and a lot of players need some personal development, but I think we need some new faces in the positions named above.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Considering he has been the primary option at FH for a fair number of years it's hardly surprising that he would have featured in the few wins we had. Like I said, he's decent (pretty good at times, a bit too often flaky at critical times over the years), but not a world beating FH and as possibly the most critical position on the field if we want more than that infrequency of wins against the top 3 sides we need someone to show the ability and intense reliability that the very best FHs have (and no, Cipriani isn't that man either). There may well be more pressing areas that need to be sorted, but if we can't find someone better than Flood in the next few years the chance of winning the WC in 2015 or SH tours before then is even smaller.

Right England need a world clas FH like err Stephen Donald to win a world cup.

Yes it would help, but the importance placed on the position can be exagerated (Wilko had a terrible game in the 03 final) and it is by no means Englands weakest position currently.
Its also wrong to say that Flood has been the main optiion for the last few years, hes only started 20 tests as a FH. Wilko has started more games in the last 5 years despite his injuries, and this is the first time Lancaster has started him preferring Farrell and Hodgson ahead of him. Theres also been starts for Cipriani, Barkley, Catt and Goode since his debut.
If we stay within the realms of realism the chances are we arent likely to find a significantly one better than Flood any time soon. If we start playing fantasy rugby then yes chuck norris would be a nice addition to the squad if he has an english grandparent.

[mystiroakey]

flood is the nuts-

however what the heck yoiu on about saying wilko had a bad game in 2003- he was the difference, finals are cagey affairs- but he was the only player to front up when it mattered

[mbernz]

Considering he has been the primary option at FH for a fair number of years it's hardly surprising that he would have featured in the few wins we had. Like I said, he's decent (pretty good at times, a bit too often flaky at critical times over the years), but not a world beating FH and as possibly the most critical position on the field if we want more than that infrequency of wins against the top 3 sides we need someone to show the ability and intense reliability that the very best FHs have (and no, Cipriani isn't that man either). There may well be more pressing areas that need to be sorted, but if we can't find someone better than Flood in the next few years the chance of winning the WC in 2015 or SH tours before then is even smaller.

Right England need a world clas FH like err Stephen Donald to win a world cup.

Yes it would help, but the importance placed on the position can be exagerated (Wilko had a terrible game in the 03 final) and it is by no means Englands weakest position currently.
Its also wrong to say that Flood has been the main optiion for the last few years, hes only started 20 tests as a FH. Wilko has started more games in the last 5 years despite his injuries, and this is the first time Lancaster has started him preferring Farrell and Hodgson ahead of him. Theres also been starts for Cipriani, Barkley, Catt and Goode since his debut.
If we stay within the realms of realism the chances are we arent likely to find a significantly one better than Flood any time soon. If we start playing fantasy rugby then yes chuck norris would be a nice addition to the squad if he has an english grandparent.

When you've got a squad with the quality and experience that the All Blacks had, yes you can afford to play Donald for half a match out of a whole competition and scrape a win by virtue of the ref (though I wouldn't have placed any bets on them getting past Aus if they'd played him in the SF). We certainly won't have that sort of experienced quality in a couple of years though and that is when you need a world class FH to make the difference to dine at the top table.

Flood left Newcastle and Wilkinson's shadow for the 2008-2009 season. Since then he has started at FH for England 19 times. In the same period Wilkinson started 12 games at FH. Cipriani started a handful of games in 2008 and Hodgson & Farrell have started 6 between themselves this year (initially due to Flood's injury). So yes, Flood has been the main option for the last number of years, starting half the games and featuring in more (he would have gotten more starts if not for the number of injuries of his own and a couple of times that he had the shirt and didn't perform, resulting in Wilkinson getting his foot back in the door).

How realistic it is that we will develop a better option than Flood in the next few years, I don't know and haven't suggested, nor have I advocated his removal from the first choice 10 spot. What I have stated and am pretty certain of though is that if we want consistent victories over SH sides we will need a player who is a step up and that if he's still the first choice 10 come 2015 we might do OK, but it won't be a victorious year.

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