South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

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Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[timhen]

There's just no aggression from the England forwards, they really need to step up.

7 missed tackles by England at the moment and all from the forwards.

[FerN]

Morne misses another 3 points.

[mystiroakey]

why isnt farrel starting v them again!!

we look fked

[thebluesmancometh]

Why is it SA are allowed to hit every ruck from differing angles with full on shoulder charges?!

I'm amazed an English forward hasn't been injured yet.

[yappysnap]

Is Shaw still playing? Maybe we can get him back in the team.

We haven't replaced him and it shows.

The whole England pack are working in ones and twos none of them are working like SA's forwards ie actually in a pack.

[nathan]

HE DIDNT RELEASE THE PLAYER AFER THE TACKLE!!!

[FerN]

Looks like that Morgan oke carries well. England should maybe try to play in SA's half?

[thebluesmancometh]

The level of aggression from every SA player is 3 levels higher than an English player!

[Hood83]

We're out of our depth. Despite what some of the fantasists say, you won't beat SA without dominating them in the forwards. Our pack looks horribly, horribly lightweight and until we realise that players like Garvey, genuine ball-carriers, need to be tried at this level, we're kidding ourselves.

Parling, Hartley, Cole, Botha,...they're all fine players, they're just not quite good enough against this level of opposition.

Is this going to be a hammering?

it is going to be a hammering, but i wouldnt be too hard on England. SA would be doing this to any team in the world.

You're probably right, Biltong and BullsBok must be pretty happy with Meyer right now. I think even the All Blacks might struggle against their power runners, particularly without Thorn. I guess we'll see.

Have to say though, no more a depressing sight for me than an England pack getting beaten up. Sounds incredible to say it, but we need a bit of the heart/luck showed by our football brethren!

[mystiroakey]

SA are on some sort of steroid- drug test em!

[nathan]

SA are on some sort of steroid- drug test em!

lol, it's not like they've always been massive.... :p

[mystiroakey]

they been cross bread with elephants... there dodgy genetic labs need to be shut down

[FerN]

Steyn is going to have a go for goals form our half.

[nathan]

the crowd are actually cheering a kick at goal. I thought boring rugby was frowned upon?

[yappysnap]

What the Flip Poopie was Robshaw pinged for there?!!

[Hood83]

Is Shaw still playing? Maybe we can get him back in the team.

We haven't replaced him and it shows.

The whole England pack are working in ones and twos none of them are working like SA's forwards ie actually in a pack.

You jest about Shaw, but you're 100% right. Our second row is unbelievably average. In fact, our entire pack lacks carriers, dynamism and power

[mystiroakey]

HOOOOO HAAAAHHH

love it . want to watch al pachino now

[mattygoat]

quick question. Shouldn't the ref be refing the breakdown the same for both sides?

[nathan]

poor kicking again...

[FerN]

the crowd are actually cheering a kick at goal. I thought boring rugby was frowned upon?

What you mean? In SA we love this stuff...

[nathan]

the crowd are actually cheering a kick at goal. I thought boring rugby was frowned upon?

What you mean? In SA we love this stuff...

ah sorry didnt know that. We English have been moaned at for that type of rugby for years.

[thebluesmancometh]

I think they have some sort of Ergogenic aid especially at altitude. There are hundreds of things that can be done / used, but in general oxygen and blood flow is a huge decider in performance, living at altitude holds a distinct advantage and then when playing there too can produce up to 25% increase in certain areas of performance!

[mystiroakey]

yep they cheating due to altitude- i tell you what though - only 15 down its not even over- although perhaps it should be!!

[yappysnap]

This is going to be a painful match to watch isn't it?

[trebellbobaggins]

Typical England. All the resources and yet still really poor. No excuse for it,

You've been poor since us Cornish stopped supplying players to you.

Is is a stuffing.

[thebluesmancometh]

Not that I'm blaming the ref, SA are clearly the better side, but the breakdowns becoming a bit of a joke these days, a SH ref will just allow a SH team Carte blanche!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

really though ( like that france game) this has come down to england utterly failing to turn up for the first 20 minutes. They actually "won" this quarter 10-3 but frankly if they get close to overturning a 3 try deficit then SA should be forced to where red shirts and starting claiming that on their day they could beat anyone

agree on the lack of aggression from the forwards mind, thats long been a problem for england against SA of course

[FerN]

the crowd are actually cheering a kick at goal. I thought boring rugby was frowned upon?

What you mean? In SA we love this stuff...

ah sorry didnt know that. We English have been moaned at for that type of rugby for years.

We also get that, but we don't care. It is the way we play.

[Jennifer1984]

England make it to half time glad to be only 15 points behind.

The power and drive of the Springboks is just overwhelming England. We're not in the game in any meaningful way. This is a lesson in intensity and I have no idea what Lancaster can say at half time to change this around.

[thebluesmancometh]

Myst

Who said anything about cheating, prof sport is about getting the best performance by hook or crook without breaking laws. Hundreds of athletes train at altitude, Ive even seen players train at altitude, drain a lot of blood while there and re inject themselves pre competition.

[trebellbobaggins]

Oh Rolland is an utter disgrace and shouldn't be anywhere near the role he is in. Such an arse, but,, they couldn't win even with a genuine ref against this.

[screamingaddabs]

A very interesting 2nd half beckons. Only 15 points difference is not a fair reflection of the sides. I expect SA to win from here by maybe 20, but I would love England to surprise us. They just need the frigging ball! They've looked quite good when they've got it.

[FerN]

Not that I'm blaming the ref, SA are clearly the better side, but the breakdowns becoming a bit of a joke these days, a SH ref will just allow a SH team Carte blanche!

It is not Walsh that is reffing, it is a Welsh ref - Rolain I think.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

According to the espn stats Tuilagi accounted for nearly 30% of englands yards gained despite only getting the ball twice and making only one run

[mystiroakey]

Myst

Who said anything about cheating, prof sport is about getting the best performance by hook or crook without breaking laws. Hundreds of athletes train at altitude, Ive even seen players train at altitude, drain a lot of blood while there and re inject themselves pre competition.

Nahh they are cheating

[trebellbobaggins]

Sky have just said Walsh and Rolland have utterly screwed England with that first try. By law it had to be taken again.

A couple of, at best, incompetent jokes and it's over before it stats, what a joke the irb are having trash like that out there.

[Geordie]

No power in the pack. No aggression. No pace. No dynamism. Totally inept. Lancaster is this what we have got to look forward to for the future. Embarrassing

[nathan]

didnt see the first try. well done walsh for the rubbish decision.

[thebluesmancometh]

FerN

ROLLAND IS NOT WELSH HOW DARE YOU!!!

He's Irish/French, but has very much adopted a SH stance here. SA are getting away with murder, but it was Walsh that gave SA their first try from the scrum!!!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

In fact, our entire pack lacks carriers, dynamism and power

which is quite worrying when you consider that morgan and marler were selected specificaly because they are supposed to be the best at these things available

[trebellbobaggins]

Lancaster won't last the season it'll be mallet after all. Malett was just letting him hang himself.

[Jennifer1984]

Greenwood and Ryan casting doubt on the first South African try. For sure, the ball didn't touch a front row forward before coming out of the tunnel, but then again, Youngs didn't put the ball down the middle

I don't like this practice of feeding the second row. Yes, according the laws that scrummage should have been reset, but by the same token, the scrum half should be putting the ball in with a view to the hooker actually heeling the ball.

Not good application of the laws by the touch judge, but I don't think we can complain when we're not putting the ball in properly in the first place.

[nathan]

Greenwood and Ryan casting doubt on the first South African try. For sure, the ball didn't touch a front row forward before coming out of the tunnel, but then again, Youngs didn't put the ball down the middle

I don't like this practice of feeding the second row. Yes, according the laws that scrummage should have been reset, but by the same token, the scrum half should be putting the ball in with a view to the hooker actually heeling the ball.

Not good application of the laws by the touch judge, but I don't think we can complain when we're not putting the ball in properly in the first place.

no, but one of those, teams never get pulled up for and they never put it down the middle. The other they do. Bit different.

[damngoodOvalball]

After the first test when biltong and bullsbok kept banging on about how SA would "get better" for the 2nd Test, I thought how can you justify a statement like that / england might get better as well / that they sounded a bit hopeful.
Hold-my-hands-up-time! Unless its that England have got worse?? The first try was as soft as they come but the 2nd was brute force and forward nous from SA. They just seem to be a lot stronger, quicker and sharper than us.

[thebluesmancometh]

Jennifer show me a SH that doesn't feed the ball, if you do I'll show you a niaive SH who needs to learn to do it!

[Jennifer1984]

Greenwood and Ryan casting doubt on the first South African try. For sure, the ball didn't touch a front row forward before coming out of the tunnel, but then again, Youngs didn't put the ball down the middle

I don't like this practice of feeding the second row. Yes, according the laws that scrummage should have been reset, but by the same token, the scrum half should be putting the ball in with a view to the hooker actually heeling the ball.

Not good application of the laws by the touch judge, but I don't think we can complain when we're not putting the ball in properly in the first place.

no, but one of those, teams never get pulled up for. The other they do. Bit different.

Well, it's a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't complain about referees. I have no problem with Alain Rolland. Don't blame him, England are getting mullah'd and it's up to them to front up.

We're getting taught a lesson out there and the sooner we learn it the better.

[nathan]

After the first test when biltong and bullsbok kept banging on about how SA would "get better" for the 2nd Test, I thought how can you justify a statement like that / england might get better as well / that they sounded a bit hopeful.
Hold-my-hands-up-time! Unless its that England have got worse?? The first try was as soft as they come but the 2nd was brute force and forward nous from SA. They just seem to be a lot stronger, quicker and sharper than us.

nothing to do will class or skill. It's all down the altitude :p

[FerN]

FerN

ROLLAND IS NOT WELSH HOW DARE YOU!!!

He's Irish/French, but has very much adopted a SH stance here. SA are getting away with murder, but it was Walsh that gave SA their first try from the scrum!!!

Sorry, I thought he was from what SuperSport told me last week. But it is probably still my fault for saying he is Welsh, SuperSport doesn't really make a lot of mistakes.

Anyway, this is the reason they made such a big fuss about why England should win the first one, because the second one was going to be played at altitude it would clearly be more advantageous for us.

[thebluesmancometh]

Oval

I don't want to overplay the role of altitude, and the effects but it is a big big advantage to the team who is acustomed to it.

[timhen]

Greenwood and Ryan casting doubt on the first South African try. For sure, the ball didn't touch a front row forward before coming out of the tunnel, but then again, Youngs didn't put the ball down the middle

I don't like this practice of feeding the second row. Yes, according the laws that scrummage should have been reset, but by the same token, the scrum half should be putting the ball in with a view to the hooker actually heeling the ball.

Not good application of the laws by the touch judge, but I don't think we can complain when we're not putting the ball in properly in the first place.

If the ball isn't touched by the front row and is still coming out in front of the far prop's feet, it's hardly feeding the 2nd row.

That being said, I don't want to see any blaming of refs and linesmen. Yes Walsh's decision was poor, but even if you negate that try England just aren't even in this game. The Boks don't look out of 2nd gear and they've got us completely licked.

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