South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

First topic message reminder :

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[FerN]

What was the general opinion of Joseph? If Barritt is back do we persist with Tuilagi at 12 and see if he can improve on his first stab at the role, or do we reinstate our Durban test midfield and play Joseph on the wing (a position he's played a lot for club and England age grade) in place of the surely (finally) discardable Strettle?

No, Tuilagi must play 13. Joseph didn't really set the world on fire. Can't think of anything he did wrong.

[Zander]

Where do England go from here? We came back fighting in the second half although I still feel we need more physicality in the pack. So what will change for the 3rd test?

England will take a lot from this match.

Tuilagi is not a 12, Lancaster knows that now, you halfback played very well, Flood is the answer to attack, Farrel must adjust to play 12 if Barrit isn't selected, can't remember his name now, but the guy who came into the backrow in the second half did very well.

Corbisiero is a good impact prop.

Thomas Waldrom was the back row player who came off the bench.

Also, I think it would be better if Corbisiero starts. He made the difference when he came on and we've seen how Marler has gone at international level. It would be better to have Marler as the impact sub I think.

[EnglishReign]

Waldrom did OK but he knocked on when the momentum was ours.

[EnglishReign]

Also, it's about time we stopped pretending off-field behaviour makes a difference and get Care involved. Dickson should be sat at home.

[robbo277]

England's first-up tackling wasn't good enough, especially in the opening 20. Bring in (Andy) Farrell to sort out the defence (keep in Catt for the attack).

Corbisiero proved today he's ahead of Marler at the moment, even with no match fitness. He must start the next test.

We need a big bruiser in the second row. Is Lawes the man when he comes back? What about Attwood or Garvey? As good as Robson has been this season and as much of a prospect Kitchener is, I think we need to try out a meaner second row.

I like Tom Johnson. He's done okay. But is he International class? Certainly when Croft and Wood are back I wouldn't have him near the team, but I think Haskell should possibly replace him for the third test. Waldrom looked decent when he came on, and I'd possibly start him.

The back-line were decent, but too often they tried to throw the ball away by off-loading when it wasn't on. Still, I'd give them another go in a pretty much unchanged line-up. Maybe Monye into the starting line-up and Strettle to the bench (which I believe was the original plan for this week).

We look so much more dangerous with Flood on the field, and it's little wonder Youngs looked so much happier with Flood. Care to the bench ahead of Dickson as well, and can we get a better back-up hooker please?

My (England) man of the match? Dan Cole. The Beast dropped his bind countless times, and the penalty Cole conceded to put South Africa 7 ahead near the end was the complete wrong call. Cole is the first name on my England teamsheet (closely followed by Flood, with Robshaw fast moving up the list).

Although I felt that there were a couple of decisions that did nothing to decrease my feeling of dislike towards Rolland, I feel the better team won. When we got that penalty though with 2 minutes to go and 9 points down (that we kicked to the corner), I thought that was a naive mistake from Robshaw. We had to take the 3 points, get the ball back from the restart (hopefully) and push for the try then. Could have been a nervy x minutes for South Africa if we had, especially as both previous games today had been won at the death.

Some signs of positives for England today, but the bottom line is we've lost this series with 1 to play. This isn't a development tour, we're not building for a World Cup. We came to win a series and we've failed, which is disappointing.

[fa0019]

Very little on Joseph... probably because he never got the ball in any real space.

He did mess up for the final and deciding bok try however.

His kick was mindless... no real point to it and was similar to ROG's in the 2nd lions test.
Far too far and then even when there was a 15 metre gap between him and Pietersen at the first line he got beat too easily. He was running too fast to counter Pietersen's swerve.

Thats test rugby for you though... little mistakes will cost you and if wants to stay in the ENG set up he's going to have to learn very quickly.

Think ENG should bring on Farrell for the 3rd test.

Play Youngs, Flood, Tuilagi, Farrell, Joseph, Ashton & Foden.

Tuilagi isn't a 12 but is too good a weapon to drop. Farrell will be able to harness the best out of Joseph with Flood and offers another kicking option out of hand.

Waldrom was smart but was too much of a powder puff girl to warrant a start next week. To get bounced by Pietersen at the end said it all about the difference between the 2 teams... that shoudn't happen to a tier1 no.8 against any winger bar North & selected others... Pietersen is strong but shouldn't be stronger than a 110kg backrower.

[fa0019]

robbo277

If Lawes wants to come back he's going to have to get a lot stronger. Just like Marler, Mear, Allen, Tait, he's too weak in his core positional skills to play test rugby.

Lawes tackling is freightening but he gets beat up by opposition hard men like Botha, Alberts, Thorn etc when he plays such players and teams. When he got armwrestled off the ball by Williams in the 6N for the deciding try vs. Wales it was obvious he needs to beef up.... that simply wouldn't happen to a guy with serious guns like Pocock, Schalk, Alberts etc.

I would sacrifice a little of his play around the park if he packed on the muscle a little.

[Biltong]

So FA did you support us or them today?

[pbuk0]

Changes for the next test;

Corbs to start he looked great when he came on. Put Marler on the bench.

Palmer for Parling. He went backwards too often today. England need more power in the second row but unfortunately Laws/ Garvey/ Attwood are not on tour.

Haskell for Johnson; Dropped off too many tackles.

Waldron replace Morgan. He needs a rest looked unfit today.

Monye if fit for Strettle.

Care/ Grey/ Ferns come on to the bench...

[damngoodOvalball]

if you count the games you've played i think youll find it is nine games.

Perhaps the reason i'm not very good at wummin is because im not one, the last time i checked this was an opinion site, just because you don't agree with my opinion don't start accusing me of being a wum.

nine games yes - Scotland, Italy, Wales, France, Ireland, barbarians, SA 1st test, SA Barbarians, SA 2nd test.

Or did England not play all of those games, trust me i know the fact quite well

Ok my mistake. It is 9 games - I didn't count the 2 baabaas games. The thing is, I don't think England at the start of a journey has been used as an excuse in the way that you indicated. It was said at the end of the victory over France in Paris ie a game we won. If you can't recognise that this is a relatively young / inexperienced England side then you are ignoring facts

[yappysnap]

Am now wishing 36 was out there to play 12 outside Flood. Kind of hope next week we'll see

Youngs
Flood
Joseph
Farrel
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Big games are needed from all of those players.

[fa0019]

biltongbek

Not sure if I'm being honest... at the beginning of the game I was happy to see either win... but by the end of it I grabbed my son off my vrou and took off his bok jersey (he's < 2 so its ok... it wasn't forced ). I mean can't you guys just lose once... for me??? It makes my life so much easier... in the end here you guys count us all the same.... English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish... "oh you're from Dublin... hey this is so and so from England".

I mean you gave me PDivvy and I thought it would be a breeze... but you still won near 70% of your games under a lunatic. What will happen with someone who can even spell rugby, that in itself is a positive from a bok point of view compared to the PDV years... I swear he was choosing players come the end via his witch doctor and tarot cards????

[Biltong]

I am deeply hurt by that FA.

[mystiroakey]

you win too much- give us a chance will ya- stop being greedy

[Biltong]

We don't win near enough mate.

[fa0019]

biltongbek

You don't need to be hurt by it too much... as much as I try my boytjie is a bokke.... caught him clapping in the 1st test wildly when JDV scored.... the first time I looked at my boy with a little anger in my heart

[mystiroakey]

Well i you play like you did first 20 for a whole match- i am not sure how any team can beat ya!(that or we dont know anything about england yet)

[Biltong]

Yeah, just a shame we didn't do it for 80 minutes though.

[glamorganalun]

Well done England to come back and make the score respectable considering the game was at altitude, England showing good fitness levels and commitment. The management must take credit to go with Flood as an attacking 10 not like Wales picking a negative 10 with limited game. I think Morgan has been found out but the management took him off as needed.

I thought SA were very impressive up to 60 mins but England got on top and put a lot of pressure chasing the game.

[Guest]

England happy they scored some points when South Africa took their foot off the gas,
It was a humiliation, as south Africa showed for the last try if they upped the intensity they scored at will.

Lancaster looks well out of his depth and puts a positive spin on the result acting like they could have won it,when the reality the only victory for England was that the Boks didn't put 50 points past them.

Next week 80mins from the Boks and a record score is in the pipe line.

[mystiroakey]

view your such a donut ,arnt you?

[glamorganalun]

I must admit I thought it was going to be a 50 pointer at one point but credit where it is due, England showed character.

[offload]

England showed a lot of character today. They dug deep considering the inexperience. At half time a 50 point hammering was a serious prospect.

Considering the three games I watched today I think the gap between N and S is very evident but perhaps not the guf it was. There is a skill gap that allows the SH teams to grasp an opportunity and a level of composure that means they do the right things, particularly when the pressure is greatest. NZ, Australia and SA could all easily have lost today, but they didn't. A great days rugby, even though the results were not what I wanted.

[Guest]

You can't polish a turd, England well beat and stop using the experience line, every team has young players coming through learning their trade,
i know English fans find this concept weird because they would happily wheel out Will Greenwood to cover on the bench.

Lancaster will be out of his job by the end of the year he ain't that good.

Well played South Africa though, loved the physicality even the show pony Spies was making yards

[Guest]

Well if South Africa landed all their kicks it would have been a 47 pointer

[Biltong]

Yeah , Steyn has been kicking poorly in these two tests.

[Breadvan]

You can't polish a turd, England well beat and stop using the experience line, every team has young players coming through learning their trade,
i know English fans find this concept weird because they would happily wheel out Will Greenwood to cover on the bench.

Lancaster will be out of his job by the end of the year he ain't that good.

Well played South Africa though, loved the physicality even the show pony Spies was making yards

Talking sh1te man...Eng were never gonna beat SA own their own patch. It is a learning curve for everyone in that team.

[Guest]

Yep its strange to see steyn missing kicks ,shame he couldn't do that on the lions tour.

[offload]

View, you have an unfortunate aggressive manner when you post. Perhaps you are trying to mask some insecurity. Anyway, I'm not English and I'm not polishing anything. IMO England did show a lot of character and the inexperience in their team at test level is a fact, not an opinion. You seem to have difficulty giving credit when it's due.

[Biltong]

Well you did win the 1997 lions tour due to us missing all our kicks.

[Guest]

Yep breadvan the learning curve being learn how to tackle,learn how to man up and learn how to be more gracious in defeat and stop acting like you lost not the other team won it.

[Guest]

Strong opinions are always greeted with a you must be insecure line,
yep sure if you think me insecure think it this is the internet ,i can't prove you wrong,
but i can express annoyance how a team that got well and truly beat can't keep spinning the same propaganda.

[Breadvan]

Thats you everytime Wales lose mate! I wish they'd all do what you've wrote, apart from the gracious in defeat thing, dunno where thats come from. Thats why they're touring in SA.

[Guest]

true biltongbek, you got to be happy so far thou from what south africa have shown under the direction of Meyer?

As for my beloved Wales it is still the bridesmaid and always will be if players have head farts at key moments thou
but the foundation is well and truly in place,if you told me five years ago we would be competing at this level with the big boys i would been happy

[offload]

View, Your style is your business. I'm just surprised that anyone can get so worked up by another countries team. Wales also lost today and I was far more disgusted with their failure to take a golden opportunity and with their lack of composure at crucial times.

[Biltong]

true biltongbek, you got to be happy so far thou from what south africa have shown under the direction of Meyer?

As for my beloved Wales it is still the bridesmaid and always will be if players have head farts at key moments thou
but the foundation is well and truly in place,if you told me five years ago we would be competing at this level with the big boys i would been happy

To be honest I am not very happy at all view, we should never have let England back into the game, we lost our focus and intensity and that was all England required to come back into the match with a vengeance.

We must be more clinical and ruthless

[mystiroakey]

obviously to spin Bilts comments- england have got to step up and show much higher intensity at the start of games

[PJHolybloke]

There's only one way for England to beat South Africa, and Lancaster has yet to figure that one out, apparently.

SA play gainline rugby.

Stop them there and there appears to be little else in the locker.

Front up or feck off, that's about all there is to it.

Haskell
Robshaw
Fearns

That's the third test back row, and it's the best chance England have with what they have on tour.

England did well today considering they got battered in the first half and SA had their biggest advantage of altitude on their side, next weeks Test is back at sea level and England have to start off by smashing bodies or don't bother turning up.

That's all.

[mystiroakey]

yeah dude i think your spot on

[Heaf]

Just back from the pub, gutted. SA did enough, though for England to be anywhere near them showed great spirit. That early try killed us, was it legit couldn't hear a thing?

To be fair they did more than enough, but they gifted England two tries by slacking off and missed 16 points to goal, 13 by morne and 3 by frans, if they were more clinical I wouldn't have had my heart in my throat for the last 30 minutes

Yeah, we didn't gift you anything tbf .

No the first try was defo not ligit ... Should have been reset but Walsh seemed unaware of the rules ... Could even have been a pen to England as the SA prop dropped to his knees just before the ball emerged from the side and the scrum folded inwards.

Not 100% sure about the 2nd either as there appeared to be possible crossing by Habana in the way of one of the English defenders when Bismarck first got the ball .... Grounding was a little suspect too maybe?

Finally, the things about missed penalties is the game would play out completely differently if they were successful as the restarts are then from a completely different position so you can never know what difference it actually made. For example I've seen teams miss a penalty but then get a try from the 22 drop out so actually gain and conversely kick a penalty and then concede a try from the restart so actually be worse off ...

One thing's for sure it certainly wasn't boring ...

[sensisball]

Having watched the replay on the first try we can see with the benefit of slow mo it didnt touch the front row. However as it was a squint feed, as per usual, it looked at normal speed as though it had touched a front row foot as didnt come out the tunnel but next to Johson's feet packing at 6!
If Youngs had put the ball in straight then it would clearly have not been touched and the scrum would have been reset.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Right or wrong decision by the ref it was a f up by England that led to the try. They can hardly feel robbed if it came from an inability to put a ball in the scrum and make it come out at the 8s feet. Its not even the first time theyve ballsed that up recently.

[Hood83]

Congrats Biltong. We put up a bit of a fight but i think the scoreline flattered us. In reality, it was a bit of a battering.

The biggest problem for me is that we just don't have the intensity or the bulk. Etzebeth, Alberts and Connie Oosthuizen are all HUGE guys, and frankly no-one in our squad has the simple size to compete. But the rest? They're all big powerful guys but there's no reason that our pack should be being pushed around by them other than a worrying lack of aggression, something the Boks have in spades.

I know that's a simplification of the Boks talents, and I don't want it to seem like I don't appreciate what they bring in terms of execution and skill, but that to me was the most startling difference.

The only player I know in not in the squad with that level of aggression is Lawes...but he's relatively light, and frankly, not a hugely powerful runner. We need to have players who have the size and the attitude. Marler has the attitude, but he looked very 'gym built'. I honestly think Corbs, a genuinely big lad, is going to be the better prospect and we need to stick with him but get him better conditioned.

Other than that, Fearns looked like he might be that monstrous carrier a while back, I'm not sure anyone is convinced at the moment.

It's clear we absolutely need a re-think about the balance of our pack. We need more carriers with aggression and size who can drain opposition defenders, and we need players who can stop their runners on the gain-line...Lee Mears is not such a player, nor are the vast majority of our pack sadly.

For those wanting Croft back, I hear that, but I think this would have been a torrid series for him. For all his flaws, i think we need Haskell at 6. His work-rate has improved a lot, and while he's not set the S15 alight, he's held his own i think against some excellent Saffa back-rows. As a carrier, he's a better bet than most of the other flankers we have.

We. Need. Garvey. The fact he was overlooked by Lancaster, to me, is an extremely worrying oversight. It beggars belief that a guy playing that well and in a position we have so little options could not be in the squad. He's pretty aggressive but more importantly, he's massive. None of our locks look anywhere near competing physically with the Boks.

Our front row is a bit more tricky for me. Cole got bounced off a few tackles and doesn't carry brilliantly, but he does perform the 'ankle chopping' role very well on some of the bigger guys, clearly he's a brave defender. Plus, we have no-one else frankly, and his scrummaging (despite the Beast's regular illegality) is very good and his pilfering and groundwork vital. Hartley, is no Du Plessis. For a big lad, he's not that physical, we need to look at alternatives but i suspect there won't be any for some time sadly. We need a hooker who can do the basics but also carry well. Marler, still young, not at this level yet, I've always thought Corbs is the better prospect (did i say that already?), but Marler will improve I'm sure.

Right, i've written all that rubbish and got nowhere near to a conclusion, other than

[Hood83]

Forgot to say, to Biltong and the other Boks on here - Etzebeth - what an unbelievable prospect. I remember how excited I was when Lawes burst onto the scene at 19/20 ish. He looks about half (literally) the player Etzebeth is.

The new Bakkies? I really wouldn't be surprised if he turned out better!

[Biltong]

Congrats Biltong. We put up a bit of a fight but i think the scoreline flattered us. In reality, it was a bit of a battering.

The biggest problem for me is that we just don't have the intensity or the bulk. Etzebeth, Alberts and Connie Oosthuizen are all HUGE guys, and frankly no-one in our squad has the simple size to compete. But the rest? They're all big powerful guys but there's no reason that our pack should be being pushed around by them other than a worrying lack of aggression, something the Boks have in spades.

I know that's a simplification of the Boks talents, and I don't want it to seem like I don't appreciate what they bring in terms of execution and skill, but that to me was the most startling difference.

Thanks Hood, I don't think you are wrong about our simplification, but then rugby isn't that complicated either.

Under PDV we didn't play rugby this way where backs and forwards alike came onto the ball at pace, going wide coming in, hiting the traffic to draw defenders in and then going wide again.

All this is done at high intensity, huge physicality and pace.

I don't care about the rest, we do tha and I can see we'll get there, what has improved a lot was our "off the cuff" or unstructured play.

We had 10 linebreaks, 12 offloads in general play, our kicking variation has improved, there were a few attacking kicks which we usually don't often see, and our meters ran has improved immensely, so those are the things that are positive. Yeah it is direct, but at that pace and physicality it is effective. No more bashing it up with the forwards without any variation.

As for England, I looked at the squad when the game started, they are all very young players and as far as the forwards pack goes, they aren't as light or impotent as you may think, as soon as Meyer made his subs, you dominated, your backline in my view is getting there with Youngs, Flood, Farrel, Tuilagi, Foden, Ashton and Brown if all available. Out of your forwards Botha has to go, Hartley maybe not the best.

Give them time, these guys will come good and showed fighting spirit.

[thomh]

robbo277

If Lawes wants to come back he's going to have to get a lot stronger. Just like Marler, Mear, Allen, Tait, he's too weak in his core positional skills to play test rugby.

What's Marler lacking exactly? His side of the scrum held up very well while he was on and the scrum had already started to take control before Corbisiero came on.

[Hood83]

Congrats Biltong. We put up a bit of a fight but i think the scoreline flattered us. In reality, it was a bit of a battering.

The biggest problem for me is that we just don't have the intensity or the bulk. Etzebeth, Alberts and Connie Oosthuizen are all HUGE guys, and frankly no-one in our squad has the simple size to compete. But the rest? They're all big powerful guys but there's no reason that our pack should be being pushed around by them other than a worrying lack of aggression, something the Boks have in spades.

I know that's a simplification of the Boks talents, and I don't want it to seem like I don't appreciate what they bring in terms of execution and skill, but that to me was the most startling difference.

Thanks Hood, I don't think you are wrong about our simplification, but then rugby isn't that complicated either.

Under PDV we didn't play rugby this way where backs and forwards alike came onto the ball at pace, going wide coming in, hiting the traffic to draw defenders in and then going wide again.

All this is done at high intensity, huge physicality and pace.

I don't care about the rest, we do tha and I can see we'll get there, what has improved a lot was our "off the cuff" or unstructured play.

We had 10 linebreaks, 12 offloads in general play, our kicking variation has improved, there were a few attacking kicks which we usually don't often see, and our meters ran has improved immensely, so those are the things that are positive. Yeah it is direct, but at that pace and physicality it is effective. No more bashing it up with the forwards without any variation.

As for England, I looked at the squad when the game started, they are all very young players and as far as the forwards pack goes, they aren't as light or impotent as you may think, as soon as Meyer made his subs, you dominated, your backline in my view is getting there with Youngs, Flood, Farrel, Tuilagi, Foden, Ashton and Brown if all available. Out of your forwards Botha has to go, Hartley maybe not the best.

Give them time, these guys will come good and showed fighting spirit.

I think you're bang on Biltong. Under PDV, whenever I watched you I thought 'Ok, they've bashed it up, drawn in a few defenders, there's space out wide so they'll probably clear out quickly and get it out to the backs...nope, bashing it up again, more defenders sucked in, no opposition players in the back-line, good thinking, now go wide...nope, bashing it up still, starting to get stopped on the gainline...aaaaaand Pocock, McCaw etc has turned it over.' It just wasn't smart rugby.

What Meyer has already gone back to, something I think you guys do better than anyone, is bringing runners onto the ball at pace. Our first up defence made you look practically invincible, and the ABs won't be so soft, but it's damn impressive to watch and hard to prevent when done that well. What he's also doing is saying you can get it wide to striker runners in the backs when this has created space. I think if you guys could find a little more pace/creativity in the centres, we can all go home and hand you whatever cups you want for the next few years.

I think you're being very generous to us. You're right it's not THAT lightweight, except in the boiler room where it's powder-puff awful. But is isn't physlcal or 'nasty' enough at all. I don't think the players you mention are a bad back line when all on form, and I do think we are creating some useful backs. AB standard? Not even close. That means we need a pack that can smash the ABs and compete with you guys, and we are light years off at the moment in my opinion.

I'd say this though. Considering how outgunned we were, we do show a lot of grit, and that should be to the players credit.

[Hood83]

robbo277

If Lawes wants to come back he's going to have to get a lot stronger. Just like Marler, Mear, Allen, Tait, he's too weak in his core positional skills to play test rugby.

What's Marler lacking exactly? His side of the scrum held up very well while he was on and the scrum had already started to take control before Corbisiero came on.

Thomh i think actually his ball-carrying and defence were a little underwhelming. As someone mentioned on another thread, disappointing given he was picked for that. His scrummaging, the basics, was pretty good I thought, but Jannie Du Plessis is not a renowned scrummager.

[jeffwinger]

robbo277

If Lawes wants to come back he's going to have to get a lot stronger. Just like Marler, Mear, Allen, Tait, he's too weak in his core positional skills to play test rugby.

What's Marler lacking exactly? His side of the scrum held up very well while he was on and the scrum had already started to take control before Corbisiero came on.

And when has Allen ever had the chance to display what he may or may not be lacking at this level? His core positional skills? Runs great lines, makes breaks, makes all his tackles, generally good decision making and distribution. Nothing lacking except maybe a bit of size or top level speed, but there are plenty of great international centres who aren't massive or rapid. He needs a go at 12.

[Biltong]

I think you're bang on Biltong. Under PDV, whenever I watched you I thought 'Ok, they've bashed it up, drawn in a few defenders, there's space out wide so they'll probably clear out quickly and get it out to the backs...nope, bashing it up again, more defenders sucked in, no opposition players in the back-line, good thinking, now go wide...nope, bashing it up still, starting to get stopped on the gainline...aaaaaand Pocock, McCaw etc has turned it over.' It just wasn't smart rugby.

What Meyer has already gone back to, something I think you guys do better than anyone, is bringing runners onto the ball at pace. Our first up defence made you look practically invincible, and the ABs won't be so soft, but it's damn impressive to watch and hard to prevent when done that well. What he's also doing is saying you can get it wide to striker runners in the backs when this has created space. I think if you guys could find a little more pace/creativity in the centres, we can all go home and hand you whatever cups you want for the next few years.

I think you're being very generous to us. You're right it's not THAT lightweight, except in the boiler room where it's powder-puff awful. But is isn't physlcal or 'nasty' enough at all. I don't think the players you mention are a bad back line when all on form, and I do think we are creating some useful backs. AB standard? Not even close. That means we need a pack that can smash the ABs and compete with you guys, and we are light years off at the moment in my opinion.

I'd say this though. Considering how outgunned we were, we do show a lot of grit, and that should be to the players credit.

yeah look, I don't think we can emulate the creativity of the All Blacks for sometime yet, however we can emulate their pace, we can probably be more physical than them, overall it will still be two distinctive styles, but if both teams bring their A game it will be brutal and pretty special.

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