South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

First topic message reminder :

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[Breadvan]

Blown away by SA's power and pace in the first 30 mins. A bit more luck and calls by Rolland then maybe it would've been different but thats by the by. Chuffed with the second half display but well done SA. Lots to learn for Bomber & co...

[Biltong]

Well I think rugby triumphed today, the matches, three competitive tests some good rugby by all teams, but sadly also some poor mistakes by all sides

[thebluesmancometh]

nathan

I'm not so sure. I think there are certain results that flattered England this year, Scotland and Italy being 2. Those 2 chargedowns saved blushes and I think did more harm to England than good. Losing them 2 games would've forced a clearout of all the dead wood, Hodgson, Hartley, Parling, Botha, Dowson, and a few others are just not top international quality. I think they are plugging gaps, and even the inflated Wales performance may have hurt England.

Similarly I think these near loss's hurt Wales and Ireland.

[FerN]

Ai, so it is 13 points Morne lost today

[Lord Sprey]

if you count the games you've played i think youll find it is nine games.

Perhaps the reason i'm not very good at wummin is because im not one, the last time i checked this was an opinion site, just because you don't agree with my opinion don't start accusing me of being a wum.

nine games yes - Scotland, Italy, Wales, France, Ireland, barbarians, SA 1st test, SA Barbarians, SA 2nd test.

Or did England not play all of those games, trust me i know the fact quite well

[Biltong]

So Morne has missed 20 points this series, that is unacceptable from an international kicker.

It keeps the opposition in the contest.

[Jennifer1984]

I'm obviously disappointed that England lost that match, but can see some good points amongst the gloom.

Firstly, let's clear one thing up. Rome wasn't built in a day. Every set of matches against a different opposition is a whole new learning curve, not just for the team but also for Lancaster / Catt / Rowntree. This is the first test series IN South Africa for so many people involved in this England set up and also at Ellis Park in that sort of altitude.

Don't forget.... we're the away team, here..!!

So, let's be realistic about our ambitions, shall we...? We can't just expect England to walk out onto the pitch as the finished article. There are so many lessons to be learned and they won't all be absorbed in a single 80 minutes.... or even an entire series.

I was impressed by the way the team fought back. I think the Marler experiment should be done away with. England's best front row is Corbisiero / Hartley / Cole.... the scrummage worked much better after Marler went off. He'll be a good man to have as a replacement but the first choice front row is pretty much set in concrete for my money.

There were signs that we're getting closer to a smarter kicking game. Getting that will be essential.

Youngs recycled that ball much quicker from the breakdown in the second half, which enabled England to run at a retreating defence for a change.

These are all basics, of course, but they need to be gotten right. If we don't do the simple things properly we have no chance.

England will be better prepared, next week, for the intensity of the early onslaught and are less likely to be overwhelmed in the same way, early on. If they are, then that WOUJLD be cause for concern. You shouldn't be caught napping like that twice.

If we can front up from the first whistle, in a way that we didn't today, and contain the South Africans, then we can start to play our own game and hey... they will be worried about that.

Let's not forget, we crossed the South African line three times today, and Toby Flood had a perfect kicking at goal record. South Africa will have those things in their heads.

South Africa have shown that they can get agitated when things aren't going their way.... they don't like it up 'em, Captain Mainwaring...!!

To repeat, yes, I'm disappointed at today's result but I see some cause for optimism for the future.

.

[Lord Sprey]

Nathan, its an opinion, the last time I check I was allowed to express my opinion, or can't I

[nathan]

if you count the games you've played i think youll find it is nine games.

Perhaps the reason i'm not very good at wummin is because im not one, the last time i checked this was an opinion site, just because you don't agree with my opinion don't start accusing me of being a wum.

nine games yes - Scotland, Italy, Wales, France, Ireland, barbarians, SA 1st test, SA Barbarians, SA 2nd test.

Or did England not play all of those games, trust me i know the fact quite well

actually this is a discussion site, isn't that what we're doing?

My point is that Lancaster has said the team are on a journey come win or loss. You said he only says it when losing.

[nathan]

Nathan, its an opinion, the last time I check I was allowed to express my opinion, or can't I

Have i said something to make you think you can't have your opinion?

[Breadvan]

Nine games and we've lost 3 of them Five of them with a caretaker coaching team. What are you getting at?

[Barney McGrew did it]

Great 1st half by SA – pretty much secured the win there and then, although we could have done without the scrum cockup and asst ref mistake for the 1st try. England didn’t help themselves though, not sure I’ve seen so many handling errors from a top 10 test side. But this England play the full 80mins these days – something that will worry a lot of sides.

Some points:

Youngs and Flood surely must have convinced SL that they’re the 1st choice halfs.

Morgan is barely worth a bench spot. Wadrom to start next week with Haskell on the bench. Is Morgan the latest overhyped player?

Manu is not an IC.

Corbs to start, Marler to the bench.

Far too many missed tackles throughout the game.

Why use all the bench? Youngs should have stayed on the pitch, Mears should have stayed on the bench.

[Lord Sprey]

Nathan im bored of you now

[nathan]

Nathan im bored of you now

good for you, i was bored of you from the start...

[asoreleftshoulder]

Well I think rugby triumphed today, the matches, three competitive tests some good rugby by all teams, but sadly also some poor mistakes by all sides

Yeah some real good competitve stuff,every game was still in the balance with 10 minutes to go.

[Biltong]

I can't see much relevance in Englands previous nine matches in relation to today's match.

This test series is a totally new experience for this team, they are playing away in SA and equipping themselves very well.

[Biltong]

Nathan im bored of you now

good for you, i was bored of you from the start...

Lay off each other guys.

[bedfordwelsh]

Bilt,

Etzebeth looks a great find considering the guys not even played Currie Cup yet, great work rate on him

[fa0019]

Meyer has to drop Morne.... its not a case of making him pay for his mistakes... he still is the best kicker in the SA test squad but if he kicks like he has for the last 2 games SA will suffer in tighter 4N games this season... he needs to know his place is on the line.... else why try harder???

You can't just tap a player on the back and say ok, better luck next time... you have to say look, we have Pat on the bench who is hitting 18/20 all the time..... you want your spot you prove it or you're out.

Meyer said he always chooses the best kicker as pivot.... well he's going to look pretty bad if SA lose next week because Morne's kick let SA down.... again. Its not like Morne is the future of SA rugby and needs to be nutured... he is the old guy out of the possible bok pivots and he is the worst runner of a backline.... if he wants to keep his place he has to show that come the big moments he can be relied on... ENG got within 4 points with 10 to go... die bokke could have easily lost today.... because Morne failed to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

[thebluesmancometh]

Rugby won today???

Thats some real guff coming from one of the winning teams and the dominant hemisphere!!

Nerves won in the case of NZ, Brutality won in the case of SA and well, rugby won in Aus's case!

[FerN]

This whole Lambie debacle showed why Gio should have been on the bench in the place of Basson/Wynand. Gio can cover wing and fullback.

[Biltong]

Yeah, bedford, he does show promise, but he still has a lot to learn. In open play he showed his ability to stay on his feet in the tackle but never looked for the support runner.

[Biltong]

Rugby won today???

Thats some real guff coming from one of the winning teams and the dominant hemisphere!!

Nerves won in the case of NZ, Brutality won in the case of SA and well, rugby won in Aus's case!

Good thing we are allowed differing opinions then, doesn't it?

[Bullsbok]

Meyer has to drop Morne.... its not a case of making him pay for his mistakes... he still is the best kicker in the SA test squad but if he kicks like he has for the last 2 games SA will suffer in tighter 4N games this season... he needs to know his place is on the line.... else why try harder???

You can't just tap a player on the back and say ok, better luck next time... you have to say look, we have Pat on the bench who is hitting 18/20 all the time..... you want your spot you prove it or you're out.

Meyer said he always chooses the best kicker as pivot.... well he's going to look pretty bad if SA lose next week because Morne's kick let SA down.... again. Its not like Morne is the future of SA rugby and needs to be nutured... he is the old guy out of the possible bok pivots and he is the worst runner of a backline.... if he wants to keep his place he has to show that come the big moments he can be relied on... ENG got within 4 points with 10 to go... die bokke could have easily lost today.... because Morne failed to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

I agree , for someone with so much BMT he was very shaky today but you accuse him of not putting ball to hand. He ran hard, made quite a few yards a lot of handoffs and his clearance kicking was superb. So yes once we get over the fact he missed so many kicks , he wasnt bad in EVERY department .

[FerN]

Meyer has to drop Morne.... its not a case of making him pay for his mistakes... he still is the best kicker in the SA test squad but if he kicks like he has for the last 2 games SA will suffer in tighter 4N games this season... he needs to know his place is on the line.... else why try harder???

You can't just tap a player on the back and say ok, better luck next time... you have to say look, we have Pat on the bench who is hitting 18/20 all the time..... you want your spot you prove it or you're out.

Meyer said he always chooses the best kicker as pivot.... well he's going to look pretty bad if SA lose next week because Morne's kick let SA down.... again. Its not like Morne is the future of SA rugby and needs to be nutured... he is the old guy out of the possible bok pivots and he is the worst runner of a backline.... if he wants to keep his place he has to show that come the big moments he can be relied on... ENG got within 4 points with 10 to go... die bokke could have easily lost today.... because Morne failed to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

I thought percentage wise Morne wasn't the best kicker in SA in superrugby?

[Biltong]

Meyer has to drop Morne.... its not a case of making him pay for his mistakes... he still is the best kicker in the SA test squad but if he kicks like he has for the last 2 games SA will suffer in tighter 4N games this season... he needs to know his place is on the line.... else why try harder???

You can't just tap a player on the back and say ok, better luck next time... you have to say look, we have Pat on the bench who is hitting 18/20 all the time..... you want your spot you prove it or you're out.

Meyer said he always chooses the best kicker as pivot.... well he's going to look pretty bad if SA lose next week because Morne's kick let SA down.... again. Its not like Morne is the future of SA rugby and needs to be nutured... he is the old guy out of the possible bok pivots and he is the worst runner of a backline.... if he wants to keep his place he has to show that come the big moments he can be relied on... ENG got within 4 points with 10 to go... die bokke could have easily lost today.... because Morne failed to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

Absolutely true, he didn't play badly though, but not our future.

[fa0019]

bedfordwelsh

Currie Cup is not the top grade of SA rugby... so he hasn't played Currie Cup... Spies has played for the bulls for 7 years but has played only 17 games in the Currie Cup.... top players will play the SF onwards only.. maybe 3 games a year.

But yeah good young player, a 15yr career with the boks beckons if he keeps his head in place..... needs to get stronger in his lower body though... he gets thrown back too often because he's very lean/too top heavy.

[FerN]

Meyer has to drop Morne.... its not a case of making him pay for his mistakes... he still is the best kicker in the SA test squad but if he kicks like he has for the last 2 games SA will suffer in tighter 4N games this season... he needs to know his place is on the line.... else why try harder???

You can't just tap a player on the back and say ok, better luck next time... you have to say look, we have Pat on the bench who is hitting 18/20 all the time..... you want your spot you prove it or you're out.

Meyer said he always chooses the best kicker as pivot.... well he's going to look pretty bad if SA lose next week because Morne's kick let SA down.... again. Its not like Morne is the future of SA rugby and needs to be nutured... he is the old guy out of the possible bok pivots and he is the worst runner of a backline.... if he wants to keep his place he has to show that come the big moments he can be relied on... ENG got within 4 points with 10 to go... die bokke could have easily lost today.... because Morne failed to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

I agree , for someone with so much BMT he was very shaky today but you accuse him of not putting ball to hand. He ran hard, made quite a few yards a lot of handoffs and his clearance kicking was superb. So yes once we get over the fact he missed so many kicks , he wasnt bad in EVERY department .

Ja, I was actually impressed with his general play in the last two matches. But maybe if our forwards don't get forward ball it will be difficult.

The points we lost were all mistakes we made in the second half.

[fa0019]

biltongbek

You're right dude... other than his place kicking he did well.... and he has done in both tests.

But Lambie would do even better, Goosen would do even better, hell even Jantjies would do even better in all other departments.

Morne is in the team for one reason.... if SA want to challenge for the 4N and after that performance they will... they got to take their opportunities.

[Biltong]

Meyer has to drop Morne.... its not a case of making him pay for his mistakes... he still is the best kicker in the SA test squad but if he kicks like he has for the last 2 games SA will suffer in tighter 4N games this season... he needs to know his place is on the line.... else why try harder???

You can't just tap a player on the back and say ok, better luck next time... you have to say look, we have Pat on the bench who is hitting 18/20 all the time..... you want your spot you prove it or you're out.

Meyer said he always chooses the best kicker as pivot.... well he's going to look pretty bad if SA lose next week because Morne's kick let SA down.... again. Its not like Morne is the future of SA rugby and needs to be nutured... he is the old guy out of the possible bok pivots and he is the worst runner of a backline.... if he wants to keep his place he has to show that come the big moments he can be relied on... ENG got within 4 points with 10 to go... die bokke could have easily lost today.... because Morne failed to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

No this season he has the worst kicking stats
I thought percentage wise Morne wasn't the best kicker in SA in superrugby?

[Biltong]

biltongbek

You're right dude... other than his place kicking he did well.... and he has done in both tests.

But Lambie would do even better, Goosen would do even better, hell even Jantjies would do even better in all other departments.

Morne is in the team for one reason.... if SA want to challenge for the 4N and after that performance they will... they got to take their opportunities.

Fixed that for you

[Bullsbok]

Meyer has to drop Morne.... its not a case of making him pay for his mistakes... he still is the best kicker in the SA test squad but if he kicks like he has for the last 2 games SA will suffer in tighter 4N games this season... he needs to know his place is on the line.... else why try harder???

You can't just tap a player on the back and say ok, better luck next time... you have to say look, we have Pat on the bench who is hitting 18/20 all the time..... you want your spot you prove it or you're out.

Meyer said he always chooses the best kicker as pivot.... well he's going to look pretty bad if SA lose next week because Morne's kick let SA down.... again. Its not like Morne is the future of SA rugby and needs to be nutured... he is the old guy out of the possible bok pivots and he is the worst runner of a backline.... if he wants to keep his place he has to show that come the big moments he can be relied on... ENG got within 4 points with 10 to go... die bokke could have easily lost today.... because Morne failed to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

No this season he has the worst kicking stats
I thought percentage wise Morne wasn't the best kicker in SA in superrugby?

Stop lynching Steyn cut the guy some slack , when he's kicking well he's accused of being one dimensional .When his place kicking goes awry but his general play is pretty good people call for his head .

[fa0019]

Fern

If they boss ENG like that I don't see them not getting forward ball against everyone else bar NZ..... and even then, the intensity was so great in the first 20 mins I don't think anyone would have won today bar the boks. I'm not saying ENG are a great side, but lets not pass them off.... this is the best ENG side bar a couple of injuries they've had in 5 years... they are a good unit. The first half reminded me of the 95 RWC SF ENG vs. NZ... at 20 mins gone if Jonah appeared on the wing suddenly I wouldn't have blinked an eyelid.

Only SA seem able to generate this wave upon wave of intensity.

[EnglishReign]

Just back from the pub, gutted. SA did enough, though for England to be anywhere near them showed great spirit. That early try killed us, was it legit couldn't hear a thing?

[FerN]

His general play is probably only good because no one is marking him and he has enough time to make a decision.

[fa0019]

biltongbek

..... sorry I meant Jantjies jnr... you know, his younger brother who starred in the JRWC earlier this week vs. IRE.

[Bullsbok]

His general play is probably only good because no one is marking him and he has enough time to make a decision.

Yes because England were not concerned by the Saffas pivot ?? You are truly determined to knock Steyn regardless

[Biltong]

Just back from the pub, gutted. SA did enough, though for England to be anywhere near them showed great spirit. That early try killed us, was it legit couldn't hear a thing?

To be fair they did more than enough, but they gifted England two tries by slacking off and missed 16 points to goal, 13 by morne and 3 by frans, if they were more clinical I wouldn't have had my heart in my throat for the last 30 minutes

[Zander]

Where do England go from here? We came back fighting in the second half although I still feel we need more physicality in the pack. So what will change for the 3rd test?

[Biltong]

biltongbek

..... sorry I meant Jantjies jnr... you know, his younger brother who starred in the JRWC earlier this week vs. IRE.

I' m fine with Lambie and Goosen for now thanks FA.

[FerN]

Fern

If they boss ENG like that I don't see them not getting forward ball against everyone else bar NZ..... and even then, the intensity was so great in the first 20 mins I don't think anyone would have won today bar the boks. I'm not saying ENG are a great side, but lets not pass them off.... this is the best ENG side bar a couple of injuries they've had in 5 years... they are a good unit. The first half reminded me of the 95 RWC SF ENG vs. NZ... at 20 mins gone if Jonah appeared on the wing suddenly I wouldn't have blinked an eyelid.

Only SA seem able to generate this wave upon wave of intensity.

When NZ matches up upfront and Morne performs like this, he will be slaughtered. England is a good team, and I know they are probably in the top 3 with regards to being physical, but they also did some silly things today. When they are going to click, it will be Morne that loses us the game. PE might still be Englands game, sea level again and I think the last time we played there we lost. Not really a fortress is it.

[EnglishReign]

Just back from the pub, gutted. SA did enough, though for England to be anywhere near them showed great spirit. That early try killed us, was it legit couldn't hear a thing?

To be fair they did more than enough, but they gifted England two tries by slacking off and missed 16 points to goal, 13 by morne and 3 by frans, if they were more clinical I wouldn't have had my heart in my throat for the last 30 minutes

Yeah, we didn't gift you anything tbf .

[wales606]

biltongbek

You're right dude... other than his place kicking he did well.... and he has done in both tests.

But Lambie would do even better, Goosen would do even better, hell even Jantjies would do even better in all other departments.

Morne is in the team for one reason.... if SA want to challenge for the 4N and after that performance they will... they got to take their opportunities.

Fixed that for you

Would it be better to start Pienaar and have him kicking. He has been an 80+% kicker all season.

[FerN]

His general play is probably only good because no one is marking him and he has enough time to make a decision.

Yes because England were not concerned by the Saffas pivot ?? You are truly determined to knock Steyn regardless

No, I think Morne is good. But he is just not as good as I remember him being. Normally when he lined up a kick you would be confident he would put it over. I don't feel like that any more, do you?

[Biltong]

Where do England go from here? We came back fighting in the second half although I still feel we need more physicality in the pack. So what will change for the 3rd test?

England will take a lot from this match.

Tuilagi is not a 12, Lancaster knows that now, you halfback played very well, Flood is the answer to attack, Farrel must adjust to play 12 if Barrit isn't selected, can't remember his name now, but the guy who came into the backrow in the second half did very well.

Corbisiero is a good impact prop.

[fa0019]

Bullsbok

I think what some of the bokke on here are worried about is that if this continues then whats the point in playing him?

Lambie is a better runner, Steyn is a better kicker... but Lambie ain't that far off.

SA will face bigger tests... away in NZ if you don't get 5/6 of your kicks.... you will lose, its that simple.

I would say rest Morne in the final test. Not drop him as I think SA need a 18/20 Morne to win the 4N. But last week was a blip, today is a pattern. He won't play himself into form... he needs time to reflect watching someone else do the job... he needs the challenge.

Its a problem when the mentor becomes the boss... Die bulle will feel undroppable.... perhaps this has made some of them slip in terms of their mentality... when you constantly are judged by an impartial coach you have to perform week in week out.. the pressure is far greater.

Take nothing away from him though... the rest of his game has been the best he's played in a bok jersey for perhaps 2 years.

[Bullsbok]

Bullsbok

I think what some of the bokke on here are worried about is that if this continues then whats the point in playing him?

Lambie is a better runner, Steyn is a better kicker... but Lambie ain't that far off.

SA will face bigger tests... away in NZ if you don't get 5/6 of your kicks.... you will lose, its that simple.

I would say rest Morne in the final test. Not drop him as I think SA need a 18/20 Morne to win the 4N. But last week was a blip, today is a pattern. He won't play himself into form... he needs time to reflect watching someone else do the job... he needs the challenge.

Its a problem when the mentor becomes the boss... Die bulle will feel undroppable.... perhaps this has made some of them slip in terms of their mentality... when you constantly are judged by an impartial coach you have to perform week in week out.. the pressure is far greater.

Take nothing away from him though... the rest of his game has been the best he's played in a bok jersey for perhaps 2 years.

I dont think the bulls are undroppable with the exception of Wynand Olivier who has a sextape featuring Heyneke Meyer, two goats and a sheep .Theres no other possible explanation for his continued presence in the Springbok Squad let alone the 22

[Biltong]

Bullsbok, i reckon that tape includes a lot more than a goat and a sheep. My concern is Wynand may have made copies of that tape and distributed it to a few team mates.

[fa0019]

ENG were crazy though.... they didn't do their homework and only competed when they watched SA do things differently with far better results.

It was near insane at times... first phase ball and ENG had props and locks in the backline, as threatening as a kitten with a ball of string to the boks centre pairing.
Its now that ENG and the RFU start to see less gloss on Lancaster and his team spirit qualities... team spirit won't count for much if you're losing matches.


Kick offs... unbelievable.... ENG gifting the ball to SA everytime around their 10metre line and were not even competing.

Question - How many times do a team kicking off gain possesion of the ball instantly from the kick off... perhaps 1 in 10???

If so then why do it... you're just gifting the opposition 20 metres.

SA kicked deep every time... every time. So what if its predictable... ENG couldn't do a single thing about it and near every time SA had a lineout on ENG 10 metre line.

[niwatts]

What was the general opinion of Joseph? If Barritt is back do we persist with Tuilagi at 12 and see if he can improve on his first stab at the role, or do we reinstate our Durban test midfield and play Joseph on the wing (a position he's played a lot for club and England age grade) in place of the surely (finally) discardable Strettle?

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