Euro 2012: Day 8 Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Ukraine v France (17:00, ITV 1)
Sweden v England (19:45, BBC 1)



Current Group Standings

Ukraine - 3
England - 1
France - 1
Sweden - 0

Group D for Day 8 of the tournament then. At 5, the co-hosts Ukraine will be looking to notch their second win of the competition by causing a shock against the French but in reality, France are strong favourites and will probably win. Then at 7:45, England will look to build on the foundations they've laid on Monday and get 3 points against a team they haven't beaten competitively in years. For Sweden, 3 points is near essential to them staying in the competition after a narrow defeat on Monday. My predictions:

Ukraine 1-2 France
Sweden 0-2 England

En-ger-land, En-ger-land, En-ger-land...

[Thomond]

He is selfish because he took the ball on a lot and didn't use better options. He is good but not great at all. I wouldn't want him in my team. Too selfish.

[mystiroakey]

Ronaldo is portugals only threat.. so is ibraham for sweden- but its all about there indirect effect. And when we do see them doing something half special they are completly on there own any way with no one helping them out

Guys your not thinking about the indirect effect when these players are man marked or double marked. These players aid there respective teams by giving others more space

[mystiroakey]

Thomond what the heck are you doing on here anyway- ireland are gonna take out the AB's- get on that pal

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ronaldo is portugals only threat.. so is ibraham for sweden- but its all about there indirect effect. And when we do see them doing something half special they are completly on there own any way with no one helping them out

Guys your not thinking about the indirect effect when these players are man marked or double marked. These players aid there respective teams by giving others more space

You never double mark a player, that's just stupid.

[mystiroakey]

olly what are you talking about.. we are talking practise over theory- loads of times you will see a player like ibram or ronaldo having plenty of defenders around them being drawn out of position..

Do you understand you point or do you wanna concentrate on irrelevancies. Talk football pal..

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

olly what are you talking about.. we are talking practise over theory- loads of times you will see a player like ibram or ronaldo having plenty of defenders around them being drawn out of position..

If they are on the wing you can double up, with the full back and wide man. Not once last night did I see more than 2 players around Ibrahimovic. I thought he was terribly lazy with his passes, and to be honest didn't really step up when Sweden needed him to.

[Thomond]

I know Oakey./ Watching it. Feicing nervous!

[mystiroakey]

olly what are you talking about.. we are talking practise over theory- loads of times you will see a player like ibram or ronaldo having plenty of defenders around them being drawn out of position..

If they are on the wing you can double up, with the full back and wide man. Not once last night did I see more than 2 players around Ibrahimovic. I thought he was terribly lazy with his passes, and to be honest didn't really step up when Sweden needed him to.

so 2 as in double then

[GSC]

Without Ibra, Sweden are pretty poor tbh.

[Thomond]

Ibra was poor yesterday, he did nothing of note. He dropped deep when they needed him further up. He constantly made bad choices and took to much out of tha ball.

[Crimey]

Not once last night did I see more than 2 players around Ibrahimovic.

I saw it happen plenty of times, and Ibrahimovic just shrugged him off. That's what I meant by superhuman, it was almost as if we couldn't get the ball of him until he decided he was finished with it.

He might not have had an amazing game, but it was pretty clear that he was a class player. The problem with Ibrahimovic and Ronaldo is too often when the team as a whole runs out of ideas they just pass it to their star man and hope they can do something. It happens to a lot of teams, I have seen United do it with Rooney, if Liverpool are losing and Gerrard is on often the team just passes it to Gerrard and hopes he can pull something out of the bag, Barca do it with Messi at times- often Messi will actually do the thing they hope for though.

[Guest]

Without Ibra, Sweden are pretty poor tbh.

There poor with him aswell, in fact there appaling. They were there for the taking but our defensive tactics and decision not to play Walcott against there OAP defenders gave them a chance. The way we just gave time and space in midfield and in particular Zlatan was shocking, against real quality we would of got murdered. Elmander was never fit enough for the game let alone to the tournament, A Svensson is 35 playing in Sweden, Wilhelmsson plays in Dubai (what does that say about him), Mellberg, Lustig & Granqvist are slower than snails and would'nt even get in most championship sides. If anything it was poor tactics from Hodgson, should of gone at them with pace and the game would of been won much easier. All I keep reading is 'Hodgson tactical genius'......wtf? Anyone with half a brain can pick that England team and if your in trouble against OAP's who else are you going to bring on other than speedy Walcott? Hodgson was absolutely shi**ing his pants at 2-1 down and biting his finger nails. Poor tactics and failure to realise the weakness of the opposition, instead we played to their strengths.

Let's not kid ourselves we were shocking. I still think because we are playing another poor team in Ukraine we should qualify for the QF's and face the Spanish.

[mystiroakey]

John dude - your posts make me angry pal. Cheer up . Dont expect to much in the first place- we have no divine right to be the best

[Guest]

Sorry but i'm telling the truth and being realistic.......that's just the way i am.

[mystiroakey]

no your not you are being unrealistic- thats my point

[Thomond]

I would agree with some of that. Sweden are no great shakes. Ibrahimovic was also not great. I don't see why people think he palyed well.

[mystiroakey]

Ibraham is a good player - and england looked shaky when he was on the ball drawing defenders out of position- Ibraham elevates sweden to another level- Its not that easy to spot if you arnt looking at how a teams organisation works

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Negativity for negativity's sake
The English default
I've actually been quite impressed with how a lot of English fans on here, and particularly the media, have changed their attitude and actually looked for, and embraced the positives for once. But John proves that there are still many who take up the default position. Fans should support before they critique.

[Thomond]

If that is another level, then Sweden are worse than Ireland! He drew a few players out of position, most strikers do that. If you don't use the ball, then it's useless. Don't be so condescending. He got swarmed by Parker a bit and Terry came out too. Why not pass it instead of trying to take it on. He is selfish and took the wrong option. He caused England some positional problems but they didn't need to.

[Guest]

The only reason I've highlighted the negatives is because everyone's praising england so much on here, it's like we won 5-0.

I'm trying to discuss the other side, albeit the negatives. It's not my fault people dont like reading the truth about the way we struggled to beat an appaling swedish side. I support england, however just ignoring the issues that there are is just wrong and doesnt give a true reflection upon the match.

[mystiroakey]

If that is another level, then Sweden are worse than Ireland! He drew a few players out of position, most strikers do that. If you don't use the ball, then it's useless. Don't be so condescending. He got swarmed by Parker a bit and Terry came out too. Why not pass it instead of trying to take it on. He is selfish and took the wrong option. He caused England some positional problems but they didn't need to.

It doesnt matter if England needed to worry about him or not or commit more players to counter him-The fact is they did!!

Lets stick to realities rather than irrelevancies that play out in a virtual world.

[mystiroakey]

The only reason I've highlighted the negatives is because everyone's praising england so much on here, it's like we won 5-0.

I'm trying to discuss the other side, albeit the negatives. It's not my fault people dont like reading the truth about the way we struggled to beat an appaling swedish side. I support england, however just ignoring the issues that there are is just wrong and doesnt give a true reflection upon the match.

your not talking truth john. Your talking rubbish based on some odd beleif that you think we should be the best. Just accept we arnt and we fought hard for a win. end of story. We can only do so much with the players we have- yeah we could possibly beat many teams- but it wont be pretty!

[Thomond]

Ibrahimovic was poor is the problem. England created a problem with im when there was none. He was at fault for the first goal. He made bad choices all night and ran into blind alleys.

[mystiroakey]

Ibraham wasnt poor from what i saw, he wasnt brilliant but he was a problem and england did very well to keep him in check. I think you must have been watching another game

[GSC]

Without Ibra, Sweden are pretty poor tbh.

There poor with him aswell, in fact there appaling. They were there for the taking but our defensive tactics and decision not to play Walcott against there OAP defenders gave them a chance. The way we just gave time and space in midfield and in particular Zlatan was shocking, against real quality we would of got murdered. Elmander was never fit enough for the game let alone to the tournament, A Svensson is 35 playing in Sweden, Wilhelmsson plays in Dubai (what does that say about him), Mellberg, Lustig & Granqvist are slower than snails and would'nt even get in most championship sides. If anything it was poor tactics from Hodgson, should of gone at them with pace and the game would of been won much easier. All I keep reading is 'Hodgson tactical genius'......wtf? Anyone with half a brain can pick that England team and if your in trouble against OAP's who else are you going to bring on other than speedy Walcott? Hodgson was absolutely shi**ing his pants at 2-1 down and biting his finger nails. Poor tactics and failure to realise the weakness of the opposition, instead we played to their strengths.

Let's not kid ourselves we were shocking. I still think because we are playing another poor team in Ukraine we should qualify for the QF's and face the Spanish.

With them they're average.

The performance was decent, things to build upon still. Roy's rather been forced into this selection and tactics given his time in the job and the injuries sustained in midfield. As I say, a midfield of Wilshere and Rodwell will have the legs to get up and support attacks. I'm guessing this tournament will be the last hurrah for players like Gerrard, Terry and Cole.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

The issues are that the team are not good enough or experienced enough, which can't be remedied in the next couple of weeks. Its a long term project, and one that Hodgson is perfect for undertaking. Given it can't be remedied short term, then what's the point of picking them apart and looking for negatives.

At least they are ballsy for once. Because no England team of the last 10 years would have come back to win last night. They would have collapsed.

Do you honestly believe its as simple as playing quick players against old ones? If it was that easy we'd all be managers. What happens when the opposition sit deep? How do you run past that? No matter how fast you are?
What's the point in being fast if you haven't got the players to ping the ball over the top with pinpoint accuracy? There's no Xavi in the England team.
And why go all out Plan A - fast players and wait until 60-70 mins to convert to Plan B - Caroll, when it doesn't work because the Swedes are deep? Its too basic, its too transparent, and its easy to deal with.

They went with a mix of the two plans, and it worked. Because the 3pts are on the board.

[Crimey]

Without Ibra, Sweden are pretty poor tbh.

There poor with him aswell, in fact there appaling. They were there for the taking but our defensive tactics and decision not to play Walcott against there OAP defenders gave them a chance. The way we just gave time and space in midfield and in particular Zlatan was shocking, against real quality we would of got murdered. Elmander was never fit enough for the game let alone to the tournament, A Svensson is 35 playing in Sweden, Wilhelmsson plays in Dubai (what does that say about him), Mellberg, Lustig & Granqvist are slower than snails and would'nt even get in most championship sides. If anything it was poor tactics from Hodgson, should of gone at them with pace and the game would of been won much easier. All I keep reading is 'Hodgson tactical genius'......wtf? Anyone with half a brain can pick that England team and if your in trouble against OAP's who else are you going to bring on other than speedy Walcott? Hodgson was absolutely shi**ing his pants at 2-1 down and biting his finger nails. Poor tactics and failure to realise the weakness of the opposition, instead we played to their strengths.

Let's not kid ourselves we were shocking. I still think because we are playing another poor team in Ukraine we should qualify for the QF's and face the Spanish.

Absolute rubbish. Sweden have conceded something like 9 out of their last 11 goals through headers, so obviously we're going to attack them aerially as what has actually happened is what Hodgson should judge on rather than John's opinion. I thought that the Sweden team actually coped with Young quite well, which suggests that pace wasn't their real weakness, especially as we scored our first goal through a header.

Nobody is suggesting Hodgson is a tactical genius, but he does deserve praise as his original tactics put us ahead and his substitution changed the game. You might see it's obvious, but Hodgson had a choice, he could have stuck to whipping balls in towards Carroll and Welbeck, which had already earned us a goal and a few other chances, he could change the game plan, he chose to change it and it paid off so he is rightly being praised for it.

Nobody is suggesting England are going to go far, but the point is there were more positives than negatives last night. England made it hard for themselves, but at the end of the day picked up three points and managed to score three goals when the worry was before the tournament that we would have trouble scoring or when we go behind. Yes, we probably will lose to a better side (a redundant point which people seem to be trying to make, of course we'll struggle when we play teams that are better than us, because they are better than us....)

[Crimey]

Also, apart from the FA Cup final, using Andy Carroll as a substitute never worked for Liverpool, the win record when Carroll started as substantially better than when he was brought off the bench. He's not a good plan B, because it turns the team into mindless balls towards Carroll and he can only hold the ball up and win the aerial battles to a certain extent.

[mystiroakey]

yeah the classic cliche of losing to the better side- lol- it cracks me up that one- good points crimey

[Guest]

Without Ibra, Sweden are pretty poor tbh.

There poor with him aswell, in fact there appaling. They were there for the taking but our defensive tactics and decision not to play Walcott against there OAP defenders gave them a chance. The way we just gave time and space in midfield and in particular Zlatan was shocking, against real quality we would of got murdered. Elmander was never fit enough for the game let alone to the tournament, A Svensson is 35 playing in Sweden, Wilhelmsson plays in Dubai (what does that say about him), Mellberg, Lustig & Granqvist are slower than snails and would'nt even get in most championship sides. If anything it was poor tactics from Hodgson, should of gone at them with pace and the game would of been won much easier. All I keep reading is 'Hodgson tactical genius'......wtf? Anyone with half a brain can pick that England team and if your in trouble against OAP's who else are you going to bring on other than speedy Walcott? Hodgson was absolutely shi**ing his pants at 2-1 down and biting his finger nails. Poor tactics and failure to realise the weakness of the opposition, instead we played to their strengths.

Let's not kid ourselves we were shocking. I still think because we are playing another poor team in Ukraine we should qualify for the QF's and face the Spanish.

Absolute rubbish.

There's no way that is absolute rubbish. Got the truth written all over it.

[Crimey]

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Brilliant!

[GG]

Must have seen a different game. He had to drop deep occasionaly because seweden arnt the same as his club sides. That shows he isnt selfish. Most of the time he was on his own in englands half with no one to pass to!

So you think that if ibraham wasnt playing they would have beaten england,That is simple not true, In fact he is the only reason they got in this championship!!

Some idiotic comments on Ibra in this thread, but you have it spot on mysti.

[Thomond]

He dropped deep as it was part of their tactics whic was a bit beyond me. Sweden wouldn't have beaten England with him, they could have been a more cohesive unit without him. When he was retired, they apparently played some better stuff (going on what some commentators said). He got a lot of ball but did little with it. If he played well what did he actually do?

[mystiroakey]

Cheers GG. To be honest he looked like the best player on the pitch untill walcott came on.

He is very impossing and very impressive- people underestimate his impact. Just because he may not have been involved in scoring any goals. He was the main focus for sweden and was the most creative player for sweden in my mind.

Thomond check out some player ratings from critics as you would rather take on board the professional's views(your commentator comment)- i just loooked one up

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/15062012/58/euro-2012-england-v-sweden-player-ratings.html.

Personally i dont normally take any note of what commentators or critics say unless i respect them. But they seem to back up my stance anyway

[Thomond]

Fair enough that last bit might not be true. I just don't think he was effective. I have seen him look anonymous in Champions League games at times. Sweden created little, Ibra had some nice touches but a lot of the time he had the ball there were runners outside him like Martin Olsson. Olsson was screaming for the ball as he was going aroudn Johnson. He showed some nice bits but was largely ineffective.


Also when I clicked the link I got page not found.

[mystiroakey]

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/england-v-sweden-player-ratings-211542719.html

[azania]

Without Ibra, Sweden are pretty poor tbh.

There poor with him aswell, in fact there appaling. They were there for the taking but our defensive tactics and decision not to play Walcott against there OAP defenders gave them a chance. The way we just gave time and space in midfield and in particular Zlatan was shocking, against real quality we would of got murdered. Elmander was never fit enough for the game let alone to the tournament, A Svensson is 35 playing in Sweden, Wilhelmsson plays in Dubai (what does that say about him), Mellberg, Lustig & Granqvist are slower than snails and would'nt even get in most championship sides. If anything it was poor tactics from Hodgson, should of gone at them with pace and the game would of been won much easier. All I keep reading is 'Hodgson tactical genius'......wtf? Anyone with half a brain can pick that England team and if your in trouble against OAP's who else are you going to bring on other than speedy Walcott? Hodgson was absolutely shi**ing his pants at 2-1 down and biting his finger nails. Poor tactics and failure to realise the weakness of the opposition, instead we played to their strengths.

Let's not kid ourselves we were shocking. I still think because we are playing another poor team in Ukraine we should qualify for the QF's and face the Spanish.

Absolute rubbish.

There's no way that is absolute rubbish. Got the truth written all over it.

John you seem like a tactical genius.....always after the event. Always quick to criticise.......after the event. Never forthcoming with opinions prior to the event.

[Thomond]

To be honest I think what the Yahoo fella said is not correct. Sweden didn't creat many chances, and there were times when Ibra took a lot of it to the detriment of his team. Olsson was screaming at him for the ball at one point.

[Duty281]

Let's just sum up how England are doing:

1 draw against a team we were expect to lose to.
1 win against a team we were expected to beat.
We're looking better than we did at WC 2010.
Only 15 sloppy minutes in 3 whole hours of football so far.
We're now favoured to make it to the Quarters, something which wasn't expected.

And we're doing this despite:

A manager who's only been in charge for about a month.
Several injuries (Ruddy, Cahill, Walker, Barry, Lampard, Wilshere, Rodwell and Bent).
Our best attacker being suspended.

So in my view we're doing brilliantly. Wish so many England 'fans' would stop moaning.

[Thomond]

Let's just sum up how England are doing:

1 draw against a team we were expect to lose to.
1 win against a team we were expected to beat.
We're looking better than we did at WC 2010.
Only 15 sloppy minutes in 3 whole hours of football so far.
We're now favoured to make it to the Quarters, something which wasn't expected.

And we're doing this despite:

A manager who's only been in charge for about a month.
Several injuries (Ruddy, Cahill, Walker, Barry, Lampard, Wilshere, Rodwell and Bent).
Our best attacker being suspended.

So in my view we're doing brilliantly. Wish so many England 'fans' would stop moaning.

England have given the ball away cheaply for a lot of the tournament, they weren't being dominated but they weren't on top. There's room for improvement but they're not doing bad alright.

[mystiroakey]

we gave the ball away even more during the two friendlies we had with hodgson- so we are improving

[mystiroakey]

we cant just flick a switch thomond. it takes time

[Duty281]

Sorry Stefan, you just said Wales were better at rugby than England

You know it to be true

Don't think I do, sorry.

Wales - WC Semi Finalists. Grandslam winners and 6N Champions

England - WC Quarterfinalists and 6N runners up

Il leave it on that note

Come back when you've won a Rugby World Cup, I'll leave it on that note.

[Thomond]

we cant just flick a switch thomond. it takes time

Absolutley, I agree with you, there's room for imprvoement but no team is perfect. England are doign well at the moment, and while I wonder could they compete with a Germany, if they keep improving who knows. There's some kinks there, but they are certainly getting better.

[GSC]

Ultimately Hodgson needs time to mould this team. England probably need a lot of luck to progress beyond the quarters, but its a long term project for Hodgson.

[mystiroakey]

if we go down to spain in the quarters - not one person is gonna be on englands back.(i hope anyway!!)

However i really want us to push on for a semi. And i feel like we have to look at ukraine as a massive game(like a knock out) and try and win big to miss spain!

[GSC]

Eh, we're probably going to have to beat them at some point anyway.

[mystiroakey]

I dont think we can beat em and id rather get to a semi. And id love to play against germany as well

[Duty281]

Quarter final against Italy/Croatia/Spain. I feel we can beat any one of those 3 teams.

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