Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

Where now for Ireland?

Back onto the horse chaps, back onto the horse.

Believe .

In spite of all the structures being in place supposedly to support the National team, you have to wonder at some of the decisions made. Carr and Hagen moved from Connaught to Leinster - why? Have we seen either of them this last season? I am not saying either of them is true international class, but we were short of props and Hagen was a promising prop and where is he now? Carr was also a promising winger. Ok you may say we have plenty of wingers, but Trimble has not produced it for Ireland; Bowe is injured; Earls has been messed around big time by the management; Zebo is promising but very inexperienced; Fitzgerald is injured; McFadden, in my opinion, has shown he is not international class.

I think some of the blame for the mess lies with the blazers at the IRFU. They are the ones who manage the central contracts. But how many of the decisions which they make are designed to keep the cash cow of success in the HEC going? Most years the Irish Times gives an update of how the IRFU budget for 1 Irish team in the semi-finals. Last season the y had two and two in the final – cash bonanza (for ther IRFU, not the provinces).

I mentioned on another thread that when Kidney came in, Munster had just won the HEC (for the second time in 2008). Leinster were (there is little disputing this) in the grip of the green-eyed monster at Munster's success. They could not understand how a crowd of bog-trotting turnip-munching culchies could do, twice, what they had not come near to doing. I suggest that this was part of the motivation behind Kearney's famous remark in Enfield about Munster players not putting in the same effort in green as in red.

I would argue that the boot is on the other foot now. Leinster players are strutting their stuff in the HEC. How much of this arrogance (??) being carried into the Ireland camp? How much do they reject the coaching of the Ireland coaches? Do they think that there is no coach anywhere close to the one and only Joe Schmidt? Certainly from the interviews I have read with Leinster players the distinct impression one gets is that Schmidt can walk on water.

Really I am asking is there dissension in the camp, just as there seems to have been in 2006-2009? I would suggest that if that is the case, the reason why Kidney could resolve it last time (i.e. in 2009) was because the Munster players then were "his" players who he had coached to win 2xHECs. Can he do the same with the Leinster players? I have heard - rumours and totally unverifiable I will admit - that some Leinster players show little respect for him. If this is the case then perhaps they should consider their position and seriously think about retiring from international rugby.

Now this seems like a rant against Leinster players. Before all the True Blue fans jump down my throat, it is not. It is a rant against the continuing small-town politics of Irish rugby as exhibited today by Leinster players and a few years ago by Munster players. If there is the remotest element of truth in what I say then the players have to take a long hard look at themselves and ask if they WANT to play in the green; and if the answer is yes, then they must ask how much they want the green team to win.

I genuinely believe we have some absolute gems in Ireland who will be available over the next few seasons (if they are properly developed and selected). However, we seem very poor at developing our youth. For example, surely Hanrahan has the ability to replace Keatley this season, and even ROG. Yet we all know he won't get close to doing so.

We have great depth, and I am very excited to see what potential players come through for both the provinces and internationally. I just worry about their development, as we seem to be very far behind other countries at developing the young players.

In fact I don't think we lose anything when BOD and POC goes. Lets stop relying on these big names, and create a team. I don't want the next O'Driscoll, I want a team who can compete with the best teams in the world. The sooner we have someone in charge who can do this, the better. The sooner we can start looking at combinations (for example, Tuohy/Ryan is a huge plus) the better.

I honestly don't think its down to effort solely. It's the wrong game plan, and has been for years, especially with the players that are developing.

As I mentioned earlier, international rugby is often a simple arm wrestle, most teams just try and tire the other out until gaps appear. Wales are the archetypal modern day international team. Physical backline used to smash away at the other team, gaining yards, and momentum. Ireland have been trying to play similar to this under kidney. Problems occur as Ireland's backs are not big enough to always make ground, and forwards like Sob, Healy ,Best, Heaslip and Fez end up doing the bulk of the work, which in turn ruins the breakdown.

The best teams in the world, NZ, Aus and to some extent France, are similar in physicality to Ireland, but also recognize that their backs are not big enough to win a straight up bashing contest. The focus is on using the skills their backs do have, playing fluidly.

Ireland, having no backs coach besides their specialist defence coach, struggle and are forced to play the aforementioned standard physical game. It is clear that once our back row do not gain at least a hint of an upper hand, we lose. Why? Because they are the only people who can go foreword and play to the game plan.

It is obviously not easy to implement such a playing style in international rugby, or everyone would be doing it. We need a proper attack coach in order to do this. Using our defence coach as an attack coach is not going to provide us with an impetus to begin playing a more expansive style of rugby that we are capable of.

Healy- 1
Best- 2
Ross- 3
Tuohy- 3
Ryan- 2
KML- 3
SOB- 2
POM- 3
Murray- 3
Sexton- 2
Earls- 2
Wallace- 3
BOD- 1
McFadden- 3
Kearney- 1

Our players arn't very good! I have given them all international grading
1= NZ standard
2= Wales/France standard
3= Scotland/Italy standard

Really to be competing with the all blacks you need a team of 1s and 2s and a good gameplan. The 2nd test the boys played out of their skins but paid for it in the 3rd test.
We have 1s missing in POC, Ferris and maybe Bowe. Heaslip still a level above POM.
Still our 3, 9 and 12 are good enough to compete at this level.

It might seem harsh. Obviously most would have higher provincial grades

Kidney must go

The Irish need to find out why they are so inconsistent. I feel they go from being serious contenders to having days like today which suggests something fundamentally isn't right in the camp/management

They need to forget this whooping - i actually think it will motivate them - and just remember what they did last weekend

mowgli wrote:Kidney must go

The Irish need to find out why they are so inconsistent. I feel they go from being serious contenders to having days like today which suggests something fundamentally isn't right in the camp/management

They need to forget this whooping - i actually think it will motivate them - and just remember what they did last weekend

Trouble is Mowgli, if they forget it they will never learn why it went so disastrously wrong - they have had the experience, but now they need to gain the understanding. Only then will they be able to go forward and stop it repeating itself. I think they are too inclined to "forget the whoopings".

I watched today in agony in about the first minute when BOD offloaded to an AB. That was when I knew it was going to be a bad day. He did the same a couple of weeks ago ...

Today we stood off the ABs unlike last week when we were in their faces. Today they got in three or four passes before the defence was up to them, last week the ABs hardly got a pass in before the defender was there. Today was so like the Wales 6Ns game except that the ABs are in a different league to Wales which is why they could put 60 points on us but Wales couldn't.

But Notch's original question was "Where now for Ireland?"

Mick Dawson, CEO leinster, talks about "the Leinster way" of playing rugby. This is a way not only for the HEC team or the Rabo team - but for every team that goes out in Leinster colours. But what they have done or are trying to do is to cascade this way through the clubs and schools in the province. The result is that any player coming into a Leinster team - at whatever level - knows how to play "the Leinster way".

Steve Hansen said he intended to give everyone in his squad a run-out in these three tests. I don't know if he did, but he must have come very close to doing so. There was no lack of cohesion in today'steam in spite of the loss of key players. Ireland doesn't have that same level of cohesion.

When Matt Williams has said that when he was coaching in Ulster he was surprised at the lack of direction / communication from the Irish national team coaches with the provincial coaches. he has said that in NZ the national coach meets with the super 15 coaches at the beginning of the season and they work things out for the national team.

So how about trying that in Ireland. Kidney and his coaches get together with the four provincial coaches before the pre-season games and work out how they can work together to improve the national team.

toml wrote:
Our players arn't very good! I have given them all international grading
1= NZ standard
2= Wales/France standard
3= Scotland/Italy standard

Thats a good rating system toml. Makes more sense than an out of 10 rating as what does 10 mean anyway. An Irish 10 might be different from an AB 10.

Personally I fail to see how Ireland will progress with Brian O'Driscoll stiil holding a place in the team, I'm not saying he is all of a suddena bad player, but he does have the wrong influence on the other players in the backline, especlially inside him.

I have held an opion for quite some time now, but have'nt aired on here before, But I dont really see the contribution that Les kiss makes to this team.There have been a number of games over the last year, where Irelands forwards heve been brilliant, however this seems to get go down as credit to their defence, I cant see why.

Staying with Brian O'Driscoll did anyone else think that something wasnt exactly right in his post match interview with Ian Smith? When he was making reference to Queenstown.

Am I right in saying Ulster (Anscombe), Munster (Penny) and Lienster (Smidt) all have kiwi coaches next year. Will this mean that Ireland will be in a position to bring a unity to their approach. One of the comments about NZ, is that we are relatively uniform in our approach. If so will this be an advantage or disadvantage for Ireland? An advantage being all the teams play similar styles, the disadvantage being it might be different to the national style.

I cant help but think that the day is looming when Ireland will have to consider taking an active part in International sevens, the repetitive fitness speed, execution of skills at speed, formed a big part of one teams advantage last night.

Ireland must use this as an excuse to sort stuff out. its not working- ireland have played 3 amazing matches from what i can remeber over recent years- v england in 2011 6n's gs decider. the game v aus RWC, and the slight loss v NZ. but if none of those games make them competitive in almost every game then there are all completly pointless.

start with the basics, get a core that will last for minimum of 4 years(till the next RWC) and get an amazing coach in to shake it all up.

Sometimes you have to get worse to get better

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I cant help but think that the day is looming when Ireland will have to consider taking an active part in International sevens, the repetitive fitness speed, execution of skills at speed, formed a big part of one teams advantage last night.

It's interesting you point that our handling was utter muck. I agree with you, but over the next few years/decades i actually could see our hands improving. I'm involved in underage coaching and what shocked me when I first started was how many of the lads are also involved in GAA. 8 of the first team play or had played Gaelic football as recently as 2011 while 4 of those also hurled. I think there used to be an attitude in Ireland where you played GAA or rugby, not many tended to play both (I did but there were only one or two more lads). Our team places a great emphasis on handling and with a lot of kids at least playign GAA at some period, the overall handling of underage teams seems to have come on a lot.

KiaRose wrote:In spite of all the structures being in place supposedly to support the National team, you have to wonder at some of the decisions made. Carr and Hagen moved from Connaught to Leinster - why? Have we seen either of them this last season? I am not saying either of them is true international class, but we were short of props and Hagen was a promising prop and where is he now? Carr was also a promising winger. Ok you may say we have plenty of wingers, but Trimble has not produced it for Ireland; Bowe is injured; Earls has been messed around big time by the management; Zebo is promising but very inexperienced; Fitzgerald is injured; McFadden, in my opinion, has shown he is not international class.

I think some of the blame for the mess lies with the blazers at the IRFU. They are the ones who manage the central contracts. But how many of the decisions which they make are designed to keep the cash cow of success in the HEC going? Most years the Irish Times gives an update of how the IRFU budget for 1 Irish team in the semi-finals. Last season the y had two and two in the final – cash bonanza (for ther IRFU, not the provinces).

I mentioned on another thread that when Kidney came in, Munster had just won the HEC (for the second time in 2008). Leinster were (there is little disputing this) in the grip of the green-eyed monster at Munster's success. They could not understand how a crowd of bog-trotting turnip-munching culchies could do, twice, what they had not come near to doing. I suggest that this was part of the motivation behind Kearney's famous remark in Enfield about Munster players not putting in the same effort in green as in red.

I would argue that the boot is on the other foot now. Leinster players are strutting their stuff in the HEC. How much of this arrogance (??) being carried into the Ireland camp? How much do they reject the coaching of the Ireland coaches? Do they think that there is no coach anywhere close to the one and only Joe Schmidt? Certainly from the interviews I have read with Leinster players the distinct impression one gets is that Schmidt can walk on water.

Really I am asking is there dissension in the camp, just as there seems to have been in 2006-2009? I would suggest that if that is the case, the reason why Kidney could resolve it last time (i.e. in 2009) was because the Munster players then were "his" players who he had coached to win 2xHECs. Can he do the same with the Leinster players? I have heard - rumours and totally unverifiable I will admit - that some Leinster players show little respect for him. If this is the case then perhaps they should consider their position and seriously think about retiring from international rugby.

Now this seems like a rant against Leinster players. Before all the True Blue fans jump down my throat, it is not. It is a rant against the continuing small-town politics of Irish rugby as exhibited today by Leinster players and a few years ago by Munster players. If there is the remotest element of truth in what I say then the players have to take a long hard look at themselves and ask if they WANT to play in the green; and if the answer is yes, then they must ask how much they want the green team to win.

Extremely inciteful post. I don't think the problem begin or end here but this is certainly a factor I think.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Staying with Brian O'Driscoll did anyone else think that something wasnt exactly right in his post match interview with Ian Smith? When he was making reference to Queenstown.

What did you think wasn't right, or what did you think was wrong? He was asked if he'd come back to New Zealand in some other guise since he'd not be around in 12 years time as a player. He said something like if Queenstown came calling, he'd go back for a Fergburger or something.

blackcanelion wrote:Am I right in saying Ulster (Anscombe), Munster (Penny) and Lienster (Smidt) all have kiwi coaches next year. Will this mean that Ireland will be in a position to bring a unity to their approach. One of the comments about NZ, is that we are relatively uniform in our approach. If so will this be an advantage or disadvantage for Ireland? An advantage being all the teams play similar styles, the disadvantage being it might be different to the national style.

Well it will only be an advantage if we see a potentially unified approach across the provinces replicated at international level. I mean what we will have next year is 3 NZ coaches heading up the provinces, a Welsh man coaching the U-20's and Saffer/ Munster coaching team at International level.

That wouldn't suggest to me that the IRFU and Declan Kidney have any sort of vision as to how the Irish team should play or have any grasp on why the attacking play in the National side is so inneffective and disjointed.

I really hope we have hit rock bottom over the past few months with the National side but I'm no so sure. I suspect we'll see more of the same for the forseable future.

On the positive side this result will have been a huge wake up call for some of the younger guys : Murray, O'Brien, Healy, Earls, O'Mahoney even the likes of Ryan and Tuohy and they, at least on an individual level, will react positively and come back better and stronger players.

For the older guys who are hanging on to secure personal legacys and/or at the behest of the IRFU, well they will have to take a look at themselves and question if they still have the hunger and ability at this level and whether their continued presence is a benefit or hinderence to the side.

I'm guessing that Kidney resigning isn't going to happen at this point? His comments after the game are the same as ever.

I can think of three things that the IRFU could do straight away to improve rugby in this country.

The first two are pretty much what others have suggested.

Decide what the Irish way of playing is/ ought to be and coach it across the island at junior level. What is the vision for the future of Irish rugby? What style do we want to aspire to? Most countries have an identity linked with style. By the time players come to the professional level they should have similar skills. There shouldn't be such variation across the provinces. We should have coaches that coach to the players strengths yes but the IRFU can decide at the start what and how skills are taught and so what these strengths could be. Then in a natural/ less forced fashion the styles of play in the provinces will be similar. I think that this would also help link us with an Irish identity, and bond players and supporters from different provinces.

The second is to be more forceful in deciding where centrally contracted players go. Currently (as far as I remember) players can choose where they play, so long as the coach of that province wants them even though their wages may come from the IRFU. Players should be playing where they will get an opportunity to play, even if that means they won't be on a side that wins something.

Third is that they could go about spreading the game the way that Scotland have. The SRU have almost doubled the number of young players in Scotland over five years through a purely volunteer system of going out and coaching in schools where it has never been taught, for free. This is in spite of going through a terrible period at club and international level. They have done far better than Ireland in this regard and have sown the seeds for future success.

This is about long term development I know. In the short term I think the team needs a psychologist. I doubt they even know themselves why they're great one week and rotten the next. No one goes out to play deciding in advance to not bother. I'd love to see a new coach now. If the guy turns out to be rubbish in the long term the change alone may give the players hope and boost optimism and confidence. I hope.

Most of what I have written has been proposed already by other posters, maybe in slightly different ways. If we can think of this then I hope the bigwigs can as well.

Kia touched on a problem earlier in the thread;

Given that Leinster have a much stronger coaching staff than Ireland, how are the Leinster players meant to respect Kidney and his patched together ragtag band of coaches?

Obviously Kidney was coach at Leinster before and his style was incompatible with the province, at time in which he failed to command the respect of senior players there. Brian O'Driscoll commented he learned nothing from him. How are the Leinster guys meant to buy into what he's doing, given how little clarity there is over players roles compared to what they are accustomed to at provincial level? Especially in the backline...

I mean at Leinster, they have one of the most respected backs coaches in Europe as Head Coach, a man tipped to return to New Zealand in the future and go far in the structures there. I mean, Ireland don't even have a specialist backs coach! Les Kiss is our nominal backs coach, but his experience in coaching Union is almost entirely as a defence coach. How are the likes of Sexton and O'Driscoll meant to go into that set-up and not feel as if there time is being wasted by an organisation with a much more amateur outlook than their own province?

The provinces are more successful than the national side, we moan. But it's not true; the truth is Leinster are more successful than the national side. We lump the other two provinces in with them, but the 'success of the Irish provinces' is riding on the coat tails of Leinster a bit. Don't get me wrong Ulster and Munster are good teams but unremarkable in the great scheme of things. They are in a chasing pack that includes many other sides like Toulon, Toulouse, Leicester, Clermont, Northampton, Harlequins, Ospreys etc. There's not much between any of those sides. Take Leinster out of the equation and we wouldn't be talking about the dominance of Irish Rugby at provincial level.

The reason Leinster are successful right now- much more so than Munster and Ulster- is because they have the best off-field structures and a good culture around the team. They have the best coaches, coaches who command instant respect from their players, and those players are some of the best in the Northern Hemisphere. They have a style of rugby everyone in the province right down to sub-Academy level buys into which makes it easy to rotate the squad and maintain the same level of quality performance. The style of rugby they play is tailor made to suit the strengths of the players they have available and the Academy produces players designed to fit into that mould. Everyone in the team knows exactly what to do on the pitch and when and does it with huge confidence. Bring in the second string and they are the same. And most of all, what they are told to do works. The tactics they employ are effective. Off the pitch they are run with a level of professionalism that puts the other Irish sides to shame and Ulster/Munster are only now waking up to this and closing the gap.

In other words, the success of Leinster is down to them being more professional than our national side. The only thing the national side has in common is the players. There are so many big things and little things that have Leinster to success that we the national does not possess. Not the coaches who know who to tailor a gameplan to get the best out of the players available and who have the respect of the players. Not the style of rugby everybody who comes into the team and instinctively understands. Not the shared commitment of the squad, to fight together and win together. Not the fans who are 100% behind the team. Not the ability to bring younger players into the squad with the knowledge that everything they've done thus far has been preparing them for this moment. Not the level of professionalism in the off-field structures.

Leinster have built a culture of success. Meanwhile, the IRFU are building a culture of failure around the national team. It should be no surprise to anyone we aren't successful when you look at a side which has;

-A sub-par coaching structure that can't command respect
-An unclear and overly basic gameplan that has failed against the vast majority of Top 8 ranked teams.
-Feeder teams with completely different philosophies about how the game should be played meaning lots of different players used to playing different styles that do not gel well.
-Inter-provincial rivalries that seem to not be left at the door the way they should be.
-A hyper-critical fanbase and media which is ready to pounce on any mistakes and fan the flames of inter-provincial rivalry at every opportunity.

You can have all the great players in the world (and we don't although we do have some talent) but you need to get a hell of a lot of other things right before you even have a good team never mind a great one. Lets try and learn from Leinster for the next generation, when we are planning Kidneys successor. It's too late for this coach and too late for this team. We need to look at why Leinster are so successful and emulate that for the future. Put the structures in place whilst we endure the last year of Declan Kidney. Put a plan in action for Irish Rugby to rise like a Phoenix from the ashes before we usher in a generation of mediocrity at international level.

KiaRose wrote:In spite of all the structures being in place supposedly to support the National team, you have to wonder at some of the decisions made. Carr and Hagen moved from Connaught to Leinster - why? Have we seen either of them this last season? I am not saying either of them is true international class, but we were short of props and Hagen was a promising prop and where is he now? Carr was also a promising winger. Ok you may say we have plenty of wingers, but Trimble has not produced it for Ireland; Bowe is injured; Earls has been messed around big time by the management; Zebo is promising but very inexperienced; Fitzgerald is injured; McFadden, in my opinion, has shown he is not international class.

Wanted to play HCup rugby with a team that was going to challenge. I think at one stage Carr was going to Ulster except Ulster changed their mind. He had burnt his boat at Connacht by not resigning and Leinster eventually took pity on him and gave him a 1 year contract because it looked like they would be missing a few for the RWC period. I don't think it was a bad idea for Hagan to move to Leinster - he will probably come good in a year or two with a good coach like Feek - and it is their home province and close to their family.

I think some of the blame for the mess lies with the blazers at the IRFU. They are the ones who manage the central contracts. But how many of the decisions which they make are designed to keep the cash cow of success in the HEC going? Most years the Irish Times gives an update of how the IRFU budget for 1 Irish team in the semi-finals. Last season the y had two and two in the final – cash bonanza (for ther IRFU, not the provinces).

HCup isn't a cash cow. International rugby is. Most the IRFU's income comes from international rugby. Winning the 6Ns would be worth more than winning the HCup.

I mentioned on another thread that when Kidney came in, Munster had just won the HEC (for the second time in 2008). Leinster were (there is little disputing this) in the grip of the green-eyed monster at Munster's success. They could not understand how a crowd of bog-trotting turnip-munching culchies could do, twice, what they had not come near to doing. I suggest that this was part of the motivation behind Kearney's famous remark in Enfield about Munster players not putting in the same effort in green as in red.

Not quite what he said:

So he got to his feet and explained himself. Said that he sometimes envied the Munster players for the passion they could engender in a Thomond crowd. He talked of being in awe of the intensity that second-string team in red had managed to summon against the All Blacks. "I just think we need to tap into that spirit more," he said. And he sat back down, the eyes of the room now welded to the kid who dared to speak.

I would argue that the boot is on the other foot now. Leinster players are strutting their stuff in the HEC. How much of this arrogance (??) being carried into the Ireland camp? How much do they reject the coaching of the Ireland coaches? Do they think that there is no coach anywhere close to the one and only Joe Schmidt? Certainly from the interviews I have read with Leinster players the distinct impression one gets is that Schmidt can walk on water.

All players will speak well of their coach. Ask any of the Munster players now and they will say they let Tony McGahan down. Leinster players probably feel they let Schmidt down by losing two Rabo finals.

Really I am asking is there dissension in the camp, just as there seems to have been in 2006-2009? I would suggest that if that is the case, the reason why Kidney could resolve it last time (i.e. in 2009) was because the Munster players then were "his" players who he had coached to win 2xHECs. Can he do the same with the Leinster players? I have heard - rumours and totally unverifiable I will admit - that some Leinster players show little respect for him. If this is the case then perhaps they should consider their position and seriously think about retiring from international rugby.

I think if any Leinster players showed disrespect they'd be gone. Mal was out the door very quickly in 2009. And the body language between Cian Healy & Kidney seems pretty good. http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=cian+healy+declan+kidney&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1150&bih=746&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsuo&tbnid=eaS_JRMaAA3UlM:&imgrefurl=http://www.sportsfile.com/id/564472/&docid=F7fDeLGaN6pT_M&imgurl=http://www.sportsfile.com/winshare/watermarked/Library/SF775/564472.jpg&w=540&h=392&ei=ogLnT8W7KY2ChQfJju3ECQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=763&vpy=144&dur=1&hovh=191&hovw=264&tx=174&ty=97&sig=104140244202277174532&page=1&tbnh=121&tbnw=146&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:81

There was also a reference last week about Kidney beating BOD in some building blocks game and Healy posted on twitter last week that he couldn't persuade the 'Kidney Bean' to go bungee jumping with him. LOL.

Now this seems like a rant against Leinster players. Before all the True Blue fans jump down my throat, it is not. It is a rant against the continuing small-town politics of Irish rugby as exhibited today by Leinster players and a few years ago by Munster players. If there is the remotest element of truth in what I say then the players have to take a long hard look at themselves and ask if they WANT to play in the green; and if the answer is yes, then they must ask how much they want the green team to win.

I don't believe that there are players out there who don't put in the effort. If anything it should be an incentive to perform at international level as they've done it all at club level.

Sin é wrote:

I don't believe that there are players out there who don't put in the effort. If anything it should be an incentive to perform at international level as they've done it all at club level.

It is interesting to look across the water at Wales, Sin é. At club level their teams are not doing particularly well. Ospreys has won the Celtic League a few times; Cardiff the Amlin; but really they are not setting the world on fire in the European competitions, frequently struggling to get out of their groups. This means that for playears such as Shane Williams, the major memories from his long and illustrious career will have come from the International games. So long as the Welsh regions do not produce winner's medals for their players, the top Welsh players have to look to international rugby for these - might that be why the Welsh National team seems to be greater than the sum of its parts?

An earlier poster mentioned about Ireland developing a consistent national style which all the provinces could / would buy into. He mentioned France. But yet, we all know the "French" way playing - Gallic disregard for structure. A way which when in full flow would get all of us, including fans of the opposition, out of our seats and cheering with sheer delight at some outrageously effective backs' move - the sort of thing that cannot be coached. Yet recently we have watched French teams which seem to have been coached to within an inch of their collective lives, terrified of deviating a centimetre from the game plan with the result that French rugby can be as boring as some other teams. How many tries in the Top 14 Semi-finals this year?

The traditional "Irish style" was about giving it a lash. It wasn't always pretty; it was frequently ineffective, especially against better prepared opposition but, sometimes, just sometimes, they would pull the rabbit out of the hat and we would go home basking in joy from Lansdowne. That rather buccaneering or corinthian style, whatever you want to call it, needs to become again the hallmark of Irish rugby, in my opinion. BUT it needs to be part of the package, the ethos which underpins every team, national or provincial, which takes to a pitch anywhere in the world. The rest of the package is solid rugby skills - handling, kicking, scrummaging, lineouts, restarts and all the rest of them.

The ethos I speak of is that which informs the spirit with which the team plays. We saw it this past season, I recall in particular Connaight v Quins and Ulster v Tigers in the HEC. I want that back in the National team, in every game they play, not just once off in a three match series. Part of the deficit in skills can be compensated with such an attitude. But that is what is lacking. This is the real reason, I would suggest, that we were all so disappointed with yesterday's performance. It wasn't simply the embarrassment of a 60-0 drubbing - it was the complete lack of spirit in the team and I will not accept that this was because they were tired, it was the end of a long season etc etc etc. Those are excuses and are not acceptable.

I think, in spite of my comments above, we shouldn't lose all perspective after yesterdays drubbing as humiliating as it was.

Our pack performed very well over two tests, with Cian Healy, Donnacha Ryan, Sean O'Brien and Rory Best in particular coming to the fore and Dan Touhy and Kevin McLaughlin showing they are options at this level too.

We came with in a whisker of beating the ABs last week, in possibly the best performance in the professional era by and Irish side, and but for some poor handling and kicking the first test would probably have been a bit closer on the scoreboard too.

The backs didn't function in attack but BOD, Murray, D'arcy and Sexton produced their best performances in an Ireland jersey last week in at least a year, as did Jamie Heaslip.

Losing the second test was a real sickner and over 3 tests we were badly outclassed, particularly yesterday but there are positives to take from this tour and we shouldn't lose sight of that .

Can you really call a defeat our best performance in the pro era?

That's why I started this thread rodders. I didn't want to overfocus on one result but instead look at the big picture.

We had a great result against Australia in one test, a great performance but a defeat against New Zealand in another. Both good performances in the Southern Hemisphere.

But we had FIFTEEN other test matches this season. We only won 5 of them, all against teams ranked lower than us. The other 9 defeats and 1 draw were not of a good enough standard of performance from Ireland. To me, that says at least 2/3 times we take the pitch we don't reach the standards these players need to be reaching to be close to their potential. Even if there is a 13% chance of a great performance, they are statistically isolated incidents. There's about the same chance of a devastating humiliation like the ones we've suffered in 3 of our last 4 tests. Can't deny it anymore.

So it's when I look at the big picture that I start to disagree, not just looking at this tour. If I was just looking at this tour I could say; we showed what we are capable of in the 2nd test but New Zealand, fair play to them, they were world class and in the 1st and 3rd tests we couldn't live with them.

But it's not just this tour... look at the whole season and the patterns I start seeing are very, very bad. Yes, we've been exposed by New Zealand but also by England, France, Wales... this is the worst year of Kidneys reign. But if you look at his winning percentage overall it's gotten worse and worse each season he's been in charge. We're looking at a steady decline.

Just checked the stats for the last game.. a few players just don't look like they are up to this level I'm afraid. Earls made 2 tackles, missing 2, and made a grand total of 8 metres. Nearly all of our backs missed 2 tackles, but got through a lot more work. As for McLaughlin.. he made 5 tackles and missed 4. That isn't good enough unfortunately. Tuohy made 1 tackle and missed 1 and barely made any ground. Apparently he did nothing all game. Again, not good enough.

Only a few guys seemed to do a whole lot. In the pack, Healy (he missed 3 tackles, but he got through a ton of work), O'Brien and Ryan are the standouts and our pack should be worked around these 3 guys. They are the core members. I think Best could be challenged by Cronin who played very well when he came on, and all other positions are up for grabs.

In the backs, the only guy who is certain of a place should be Kearney, who I think will be the only consistent member for years to come. Sexton too, but he needs to be a bit more consistent in his performances. Like the rest of the team, really.

Some of you might be interested - I'm watching the Cork v Tipp semi hurling final. Conor Sweetnam is the No. 8 for Cork is also on the U20s Munster rugby. Think he also plays hockey for Munster as well. By the way, he has just done his Leaving Cert. Scored a great point for Cork already.

Interesting to see where he will end up.

Anyway, g'wan tipp.

here is a link to to those who can't access it on rte2.

http://tykestv.eu/channel2.php

Our players may not be "that great", but we are a hell of a lot better than what that last year's rugby showcased. Playing like a load of headless chickens at times, following a game plan that suits none of them...

We had a game plan this year?

Oh to add to our list of core players, obviously Ferris. We missed him IMO.

Healy, Best, Ryan, Ferris and O'Brien are our most important members of the pack over the next number of seasons. Kearney, Bowe and Sexton in the backs. The other positions are all going to be up for debate.

well, a sort of plan yeah, mentioned it earlier

I agree with Rodders, there are enough positives to take from this tour. Cian Healy, Rory Best, Donnacha Ryan and Sean O'Brien had two excellent games, with Healy, Best and Ryan probably the best of a very bad bunch yesterday. Let's not forget that in the first two games Sean O'Brien got the better of Richie McCaw. That's a good sign for his development.

I have so much I could write about where Ireland go from here but I don't want to write an essay about it so I'll keep it to a few bullet points.

1) Make the best use of scare resources. Let's not make any bones about it, we simply do not have the player pool to have anything more than a competitive 25 man international panel. People here are saying we need to look at Wales, France, New Zealand or England to see how we model our side. To my mind we should look at what the biggest overachieving team in the history of rugby union do and why it is successful- we need to look towards the Australians. Union is at best, perhaps the 4th most popular sport after soccer, Aussie Rules and rugby league, yet look at their success. For their player base and resources what they achieve is nothing short of phenomenal. An we aren't talking a 'golden generation'- it is consistent achievement. I do not know what it is they do that makes they so successful, I don't know what the relationship between the Super15 clubs and the ARU is, but there are lessons to be learnt for sure.

2) Have a way of playing that fits our players. There is too much talk that Ireland should look to play the 'Leinster way'. What a pack of nonsense. Leinster can play the Leinster way. Ireland must play a way that fits their players, and if that is how Leinster play then great. It doesn't matter. It's not about continuity between the provinces. It's about looking at who makes up an Irish team, what are their strengths and weaknesses, and what tactics can we play that will accentuate our strengths and what hides our flaws. We don't have huge backs like New Zealand or England or South Africa or Wales so we need to look at what we have and maximise that. Look at Tommy Bowe and Andrew Trimble for example. Neither are particularly quick, nor especially physical. Bowe's strength is his reading of the game and lines of running. We need a midfield to create opportunities where Bowe can flourish. That sort of leads me to combine to point 3.....

3) Have players who specalise in positions. Keith Earls and Luke Fitzgerald. Need I say more? That was rhetorical because I am going to say more. I think Earl could a world class winger. He had tremendous speed, and eye for the line and runs good lines of attack, and what I perceive to be his weaknesses are better hidden there. Many of you might think he could be a great centre. The point is that he needs to be picked in one position and become a master of that, not a jack of all trades and master of none. That means we need...

4) Better leadership from the IRFU They need to say to Munster that Keith Earls is either a centre/winger/full back and they pick him only there. They might say that JJ Hanrahan is an outhalf/centre and he plays only one of those positions. They might say to Leinster that Luke Fitzgerald is either a 12, 13 winger or fullback so pick him only there. This goes back to points one and three. We don't have a Jamie Roberts to play 12 so what do we have? Maybe instead of being fixated on size we look at, for arguments sake, Luke Fitzgerald at 12. An exceptionally talented footballer who I think could make room for backs outside with is passing and distribution, and having quick feet he can make those initial half breaks that others outside him can exploit. We don't have the big physical backs so why on earth do we pick someone like Paddy Wallace and play him as a crash ball option at 12. It is simply idiotic.

Finally 5) Change the coaching panel Does anyone have faith in Kidney to fix the mess? The IRFU need to work quickly if they want someone in place before the autumn internationals so as not to cause disruption to the club or province we recruite him from. Personally, the only real candidates for me are Connor O'Shea, Joel Schmidt and Nick Mallett. I would love to see Robbie Deans but that won't happen. Let them build a coaching staff that does the basics and gets the best out of the player we have. We have good coaches available. Gregg Feek and Les Kiss have been superb in their jobs, or at least Kiss was when employed in one position. We have a genuinely good attacking coach in charge of out U-20s and look at the job he has done over the past few seasons. We certainly need fresh eyes and a new vision over the national team.

The IRFU should push ahead with their plans on limiting further the number of foreign players in the country. There was a big backlash when it was announced but it has to happen.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Gordy wrote:Ireland are hopeless internationally.

There is a misconception that because their provinces do well that their international team should follow. But the advantages they enjoy at provincial level simply arent there internationally.

The popular theory is to blame to Kidney but their squad of players is overrated - especially in the pack and thir backline is now both physically not able to cope at international level and just not up to the job. Wallace, Earls, D'Arcy, McFadden, Trimble, Murray - all very average and easily outmuscled. Even O'Driscoll is now beginning to show his age. He tries to play a dynamic offloading game in a side that is just not good enough or strong enough to pull it off. How many turnovers does O'Driscoll concede a game trying his one handed offloads in a misfiring backline?

I cant see any coach in the world being able to work miracles with the team. Especially the backline.

Every time you say this, and I ask you to tell me what the advantages are at provincial level. You never respond.

I would think the advantages are obvious. International players effectvely split between two (maybe three) teams rather than many teams like England or France. Players being able to rest before important HC matches rather than English and French teams having to play best teams and try every week.

So how would the international team being split between three teams be an advantage for the provinces? That makes no sense.

kunu wrote:well, a sort of plan yeah, mentioned it earlier

Looks like the players get to give their opinion of the gameplan.

From the infamous Enfield meeting just before Ireland went onto to win the Grand Slam.

Kidney asked the players to rate the Autumn series gameplan and the average response was two out of 10. He didn't flinch. Thunder, it is said, clears the air. And Enfield became a perfect storm.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So how would the international team being split between three teams be an advantage for the provinces? That makes no sense.

Because you are more likely to be a successful club/province with a half/third of your international team than with say a sixth of your international team. I say a sixth given that best players in England or France are not evenly split between all twelve teams.

If England moved all their international players to two teams they would be more likely to have success in HC. I would hate this to happen by the way.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So how would the international team being split between three teams be an advantage for the provinces? That makes no sense.

Because you are more likely to be a successful club/province with a half/third of your international team than with say a sixth of your international team. I say a sixth given that best players in England or France are not evenly split between all twelve teams.

If England moved all their international players to two teams they would be more likely to have success in HC. I would hate this to happen by the way.

Then why aren't Welsh and Scottish sides doing better in the club format? Since Wales are doing better than Ireland currently in the international game wouldn't you expect their regions to do better when these players are concentrated into three and a half sides just as Ireland are? By the way, if you read above you might just notice that Leinster are dominating Europe. Munster got to the quarters and were beaten by Ulster. Ulster got to the final, but didn't get the Rabo playoffs.

Also England and France have a much bigger player base than any of the Celtic sides. If they actually had the talent then this wouldn't be a problem. Weren't the Irish provinces in existence when England sides won the Heineken Cup year after year? Haven't French sides continued to be more than competitive in the competition. This excuse has been bandied about by plenty of English fans and doesn't really stand up to any level of scrutiny.

Just a point that Wales have four regions, not 3 and a half

rugbydreamer wrote:Just a point that Wales have four regions, not 3 and a half

No disrespect intended to the Dragons. They weren't in the Heineken Cup this season nor next season. For the purposes of this conversation about performances in the tournament and concentration on the big tournaments I didn't include them. I was making a comparison with Connaught in this regard, though I know the situation is different

No but at the start of the season they supplied 5 players to the national squad. How many do Connacht provide? I don't think you can compare the two just yet.

rugbydreamer wrote:No but at the start of the season they supplied 5 players to the national squad. How many do Connacht provide? I don't think you can compare the two just yet.

Fair point

I wonder how the players would rate the gameplan now, three and a half years on.

There won't be any changes to the coaching staff for the Autumn. But I don't see what the current regime has to offer any more, in the cold light of day. I'm not sure how we make meaningful progress. We have reached an impasse it seems.

Will you even be looking forward to any more Ireland games Notch, with the current setup?

I actually think Connacht are part of a big issue in Irish rugby. By it taking so long to develop Connacht as a true and contributing province you are limiting your own player base to just three sides. Then in these three sides although you don't have masses of NIQ players, the ones you do have (like Nacewa, Piennar etc) are usually (not always I will concede) key go to men in your three remaining teams. This works brilliantly for the Provinces as shown in the recent success in the Heineken. There's no doubt that things are ticking over nicely there.

You then though get the step up (and it is a BIG step up) to international level. All of a sudden you don't have as many go to players. You don't have as many true leaders (there's old BOD and POC really) as your Irish players don't play this role in the regional sides.

You also have the problem of a small player pool which is exacerbated I think, by not exposing your younger players to a high enough standard soon enough. You had the almost ridiculous situation at Ulster this season with Paddy Jackson, barely having any proper game time for Ulster, all of a sudden being given the starting shirt for the SF and Final.

I think Ireland's problem is that they didn't continue the process Gatland started with capping young players and providing them with the experience to step up to the plate. You're not far off getting it right but I think you might struggle for a couple of seasons as you bring in the new core squad of players. This means moving on from the likes of BOD. Tis not just an Ireland thing though, it's something that I think the provinces need to look at too.

And I'm sure a lot of you might think all of what I've just typed is a load of rubbish, but tis just an outsiders view of things that are happening over with you

Exiledinborders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So how would the international team being split between three teams be an advantage for the provinces? That makes no sense.

Because you are more likely to be a successful club/province with a half/third of your international team than with say a sixth of your international team. I say a sixth given that best players in England or France are not evenly split between all twelve teams.

If England moved all their international players to two teams they would be more likely to have success in HC. I would hate this to happen by the way.

That is.. rather strange logic. Ireland wouldn't have the depth to develop anything more than what they already have. Hence why for years we had two provinces competing at the top (Ulster are now joining them thankfully). England has MUCH greater depth than Ireland, as do France. So they can cater to many more teams, as they have many more professional players, and have relegation systems and different leagues etc. If Ireland had similar depth to England/France your point would be a good one, but the reality is we don't.

In what way is it a BIG step up though? Please explain that to me, people say it all the time but it is meaningless unless backed up with evidence. Many players who have played in the latter stages of the HEC would disagree with you, and have compared HEC and international rugby themselves.

Playing teams from the SH is the step up. Eg, I doubt Wales have played a team nearly as good as Australia. Nor have Ireland played anyone as good as NZ, nor have England played anyone as good as South Africa.

The speed of the game is dramatically increased when playing against the top SH sides.