Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

To what extent is structure a problem. No 7's team, how often do the A team play (wolfhounds). To what extent does the national set up work with provinces to ensure player development for the national side? How much access does Kidney have during the year to work with the team?

Notch wrote:Isn't that instructive though?

After 2009, Kidney had to rebuild the team. We needed a new gameplan and we needed to bring through new players. He hasn't really accomplished any of that. What I haven't seen you make is a case for how we are going to get back to 2009 levels either in the short term or the long term. Or how Kidney is going to reverse the decline of this side and put us back on an upwards trajectory.

1. Find a 2009 edition of BOD.
2. Keep Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris fit.
3. Develop suitable backup to Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris & replacement for David Wallace. (D Ryan & SOB so well on the way).
4. Cheer that 23 man squads are being trialled (with a fit Dec Fitz on the bench). Bring back Buckley into the squad. Would be great impact against non-scrummaging sides.
5. Move Sexton to 12 (best available option) and insist that Ian Madigan starts place kicking for Leinster.
6. Leave BOD at 13 for a while. Start subbing him (by having his replacement playing on the wing and moving in and replacing wing).
7. Get a fit Fitz & Bowe back. Hope Gilroy, Kearney Jnr & Zebo get plenty of gametime with their province and continue to develop).
8. Start looking for a backup for kearney. (Don't think Jones' body is up to it).

Yes, it's important to have realistic expectations but if you never set high standards you'll never reach them. There are a lot of structural problems that need to be addressed regarding how the IRFU, the national team and the provinces work together. And whoever comes into replace Kidney at the end of his contract needs to be given more support than his predecessor.

Who said we wouldn't set high standards. Very high standards for this team would be winning the 6ns (not necessarily a GS). Winning all home games would be very good. Too demanding is expecting a team to play their 17th Test match of the season in NZ having been there a couple of months ago (as well as HCups & Magners finals).

But christ, if I could be presented one shred of evidence that the head coach can do anything to arrest this slide I'd be a bit more sympathetic. I haven't seen one. I was ready to give him a break after the result until I looked at the bigger picture and realised how damning it really is. A LOT of our problems come down to an inadequate gameplan and tactics. At least a new man will come into it with no baggage and hopefully a fresh perspective on the way we need to play the game.

The argument seems to be "It's not all his fault". And I agree, if we make him a scapegoat and replace him without making other changes we won't improve as much as we need to. But is there really any reason he should be retained? We need changes. They must start with the coach; but if they end there, we're in difficulties.[/quote]

I haven't seen too much detail on what the new coach needs to do (fresh perspective & no baggage is not a strategy). All I've heard is get Joe Schmidt in, he is a good coach!

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:Radge, most would accept Kidney has done great things for Ireland and Munster. The thing is what is he doing for us now? Or what has he done for us in the last year? Before you saw the WC ,EOS got us to a 1/4 too.

The only manager I would say who has kept his job despite results is Arsene Wenger , and that's another sport.

Soccer is a whole different ballgame where most fans come to expect that their manager should be sacked if they lose 2 or 3 games on the trot. Its sort of like people power being able call for the manager's head. I hate the way that this attitude is creeping into rugby & gaa - and its mainly in the countries neighbouring England (though France & Italy haven't adopted that practice yet). A lot of people would claim that Robbie Deans is very lucky to still have his job and as a kiwi, I doubt if there would be a lot of love lost between him and the fans.

Has the point sunk in yet that out of the Grand Slam winning team in '09, two started on Saturday and that in the last year Ireland have used 47 or 48 players this season (and not all of them could ever be Test class).

That's not really how a lot of soccer fans feel, the stereotyping around soccer is insane

Sin é wrote:

1. Find a 2009 edition of BOD.
2. Keep Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris fit.
3. Develop suitable backup to Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris & replacement for David Wallace. (D Ryan & SOB so well on the way).
4. Cheer that 23 man squads are being trialled (with a fit Dec Fitz on the bench). Bring back Buckley into the squad. Would be great impact against non-scrummaging sides.
5. Move Sexton to 12 (best available option) and insist that Ian Madigan starts place kicking for Leinster.
6. Leave BOD at 13 for a while. Start subbing him (by having his replacement playing on the wing and moving in and replacing wing).
7. Get a fit Fitz & Bowe back. Hope Gilroy, Kearney Jnr & Zebo get plenty of gametime with their province and continue to develop).
8. Start looking for a backup for kearney. (Don't think Jones' body is up to it).

A lot of sense in here Sin. But Point 5 - didnt you argue against this a few pages back? Point 6 - Will Kidney ever have the stones to sub BOD off? I think this might be the best way to develop a new 13 though. Point 8 - Ulster are a third of the way through 'developing' the new 15. Hes called Jared Payne

dublin_dave wrote:sin im not blaming paddy wallace in the slightest. im blaming mr kidney for selecting him from his holidays as opposed to look at cave or mc fadden in midfield. it was a daft call please dont try and convince me otherwise.

McFadden played in the midfield against Wales in the 6Ns.
Cave played there against the Barbarians & he had his cameo in the first test (and by the way, Cave has never played any other position than 13). And Earls was tried there in the first test as well. You can't claim they all didn't get a chance.

if kidney can veto a mid week game surely he has some input into the tour fixtures and selection of his back room staff. if he thinks we need a new backs/attack coach he should be throwing a strop about it. i know gaffney was not great but it allowed kiss to concentrate on defence and not double job.

Very little input into these fixtures. The IRB have changed the format to old style tours - all involve 3 tests. NZ wanted more.
Its not Kidney's style to throw a strop.

save an occasional great backs to the wall performance we get worse each year. i have questioned kidney before but am now really concerned about whether he has any plan to move us forward. i think we need a new coach and a new voice. his odd interviews are starting to grate now.

Some of these players have an awful lot of backs to the wall games to play in that their clubs fans might not be so demanding. Maybe its too much to expect that they can fight on two fronts - look at Wales - wins a Grand Slam but haven't beaten Australia away in 40 years.

Sin é wrote:

1. Find a 2009 edition of BOD.
2. Keep Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris fit.
3. Develop suitable backup to Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris & replacement for David Wallace. (D Ryan & SOB so well on the way).
4. Cheer that 23 man squads are being trialled (with a fit Dec Fitz on the bench). Bring back Buckley into the squad. Would be great impact against non-scrummaging sides.
5. Move Sexton to 12 (best available option) and insist that Ian Madigan starts place kicking for Leinster.
6. Leave BOD at 13 for a while. Start subbing him (by having his replacement playing on the wing and moving in and replacing wing).
7. Get a fit Fitz & Bowe back. Hope Gilroy, Kearney Jnr & Zebo get plenty of gametime with their province and continue to develop).
8. Start looking for a backup for kearney. (Don't think Jones' body is up to it).

What's a non-scrummaging side? Nobody in the 6nations are non scrummaging sides, nobody in the 4nations down south are non scrummaging, Georgia and Romania are strong scrummagers. So that leaves Tony Buckely to play USA, Canada, Japan, Tonga, Fiji and Samoa. I'd perfer if Madigan moved to 12 than Sexton.

"McFadden played in the midfield against Wales in the 6Ns.
Cave played there against the Barbarians & he had his cameo in the first test (and by the way, Cave has never played any other position than 13). And Earls was tried there in the first test as well. You can't claim they all didn't get a chance."

They all did get a chance and didn't impress but that's hardly been a marker for the Kidney selection policy when he persisted all tour with a cruelly exposed McFadden at 14.

Also, as Mick has asked, what on earth is a non-scrummaging side?
I am a fan of Buckleys but I can't see what he would bring to the scrum. God he's great in open play though so it's a shame he can't be utilised elsewhere.

Thomond wrote:
That's not really how a lot of soccer fans feel, the stereotyping around soccer is insane

So the bookies don't give odds on who the first premiership manager will be sacked in the season then.

How many soccer managers gets sacked every year? Rare enough for a manager to last his contract in any club, yet they all keep getting jobs again so they must not have been completely Poopie.

The whole two or three games thing is a load of rubbish. It's usually a minimum of 15 games before the first guy is fired. So that would be nearly 2 seasons of international rugby.

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:

1. Find a 2009 edition of BOD.
2. Keep Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris fit.
3. Develop suitable backup to Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris & replacement for David Wallace. (D Ryan & SOB so well on the way).
4. Cheer that 23 man squads are being trialled (with a fit Dec Fitz on the bench). Bring back Buckley into the squad. Would be great impact against non-scrummaging sides.
5. Move Sexton to 12 (best available option) and insist that Ian Madigan starts place kicking for Leinster.
6. Leave BOD at 13 for a while. Start subbing him (by having his replacement playing on the wing and moving in and replacing wing).
7. Get a fit Fitz & Bowe back. Hope Gilroy, Kearney Jnr & Zebo get plenty of gametime with their province and continue to develop).
8. Start looking for a backup for kearney. (Don't think Jones' body is up to it).

A lot of sense in here Sin. But Point 5 - didnt you argue against this a few pages back? Point 6 - Will Kidney ever have the stones to sub BOD off? I think this might be the best way to develop a new 13 though. Point 8 - Ulster are a third of the way through 'developing' the new 15. Hes called Jared Payne

Moving Sexton to 12 - I'd hope that Schmidt might get him used to the idea at Leinster first. Less disruption to the rest of the team. I think its going to be very interesting as to how this is going to work out in Leinster for him. Don't think Madigan will be content to play 2nd fiddle for too long.

Sin é wrote:I haven't seen too much detail on what the new coach needs to do (fresh perspective & no baggage is not a strategy). All I've heard is get Joe Schmidt in, he is a good coach!

Well it depends when he comes in. If it's the autumn, he needs short-term results more than anything else. Specifically, a win against Argentina which should hopefully secure our seeding for the next Rugby World Cup. Kidney is capable of achieving this, he should be left until the end of the year. The handover from him to a new coach should happen a few months early if possible so we can start the rebuilding process in the Six Nations.

I just don't think Schmidt sees his long term future in Ireland, I imagine he will be returning to New Zealand in the next few years. If he was interested in the job, sure. He's more than earned it. But I think Mike Ruddock is a more likely successor. Ruddock understands how to play the game in such a way that we'll get the best out of our smaller backs and greatly improve our continuity play and offloading. I would not be at all adverse to seeing Gert Smal and Greg Feek continue in their roles with the forwards but we need an entirely new perspective on attack and defence. Certainly a new defence coach is a must, Ruddock can probably handle more hands-on coaching in attack. I would also like to see Brian McLaughlin involved in specialist breakdown coaching for the national team again.

They need to evolve how we play the game as opposed to blooding players for the sake of it. There are a few new players who can come in- Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy- but we should keep working with the group of players we have. Performance will be more important than results at first. The new coach has to completely update how we play the game after all, it will take time and patience. His hands will be tied as much as Kidneys though if the Provinces don't uncover some new blood at 3 and 12. I remain in favour of moving BOD in one to the 12 jersey if not. We just lack options there and it would allow us to bring some pace back into our midfield by using Earls or Bowe at 13. I would rather move Sexton out but ROG is looking like his race is run whilst Jackson isn't quite ready. So that will have to wait.

These are just changes to the coaching staff, tweaks to make sure we get close to our potential. There are many other things that have to change for us to be successful.

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:

1. Find a 2009 edition of BOD.
2. Keep Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris fit.
3. Develop suitable backup to Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris & replacement for David Wallace. (D Ryan & SOB so well on the way).
4. Cheer that 23 man squads are being trialled (with a fit Dec Fitz on the bench). Bring back Buckley into the squad. Would be great impact against non-scrummaging sides.
5. Move Sexton to 12 (best available option) and insist that Ian Madigan starts place kicking for Leinster.
6. Leave BOD at 13 for a while. Start subbing him (by having his replacement playing on the wing and moving in and replacing wing).
7. Get a fit Fitz & Bowe back. Hope Gilroy, Kearney Jnr & Zebo get plenty of gametime with their province and continue to develop).
8. Start looking for a backup for kearney. (Don't think Jones' body is up to it).

A lot of sense in here Sin. But Point 5 - didnt you argue against this a few pages back? Point 6 - Will Kidney ever have the stones to sub BOD off? I think this might be the best way to develop a new 13 though. Point 8 - Ulster are a third of the way through 'developing' the new 15. Hes called Jared Payne

And from what I've seen of Payne he has more talent in his little finger than anyone on the Irish squad at the moment. If he comes back as good as he was he'll be strolling onto the Irish team in two seasons time.

Thomond wrote:The whole two or three games thing is a load of rubbish. It's usually a minimum of 15 games before the first guy is fired. So that would be nearly 2 seasons of international rugby.

But the mentality is there that as soon as a team looses a couple in a row (in the bigger clubs), the papers start speculating when they will be sacked.

surely a new backs coach is a more logical start point then shunting sexton to 12. the pressure that would heap on madigan to ignite our back play would be cruel

i see no reason why with good innovative coaching we cannot get a dangerous backline at international level from the likes of reddan,murray,sexton,madigan,mcfadden,drico,earls,cave,gilroy,fitzgerald,zebo,bowe,kearney etc

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:The whole two or three games thing is a load of rubbish. It's usually a minimum of 15 games before the first guy is fired. So that would be nearly 2 seasons of international rugby.

But the mentality is there that as soon as a team looses a couple in a row (in the bigger clubs), the papers start speculating when they will be sacked.

It doesn't usually happen though!

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

1. Find a 2009 edition of BOD.
2. Keep Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris fit.
3. Develop suitable backup to Paul O'Connell & Stephen Ferris & replacement for David Wallace. (D Ryan & SOB so well on the way).
4. Cheer that 23 man squads are being trialled (with a fit Dec Fitz on the bench). Bring back Buckley into the squad. Would be great impact against non-scrummaging sides.
5. Move Sexton to 12 (best available option) and insist that Ian Madigan starts place kicking for Leinster.
6. Leave BOD at 13 for a while. Start subbing him (by having his replacement playing on the wing and moving in and replacing wing).
7. Get a fit Fitz & Bowe back. Hope Gilroy, Kearney Jnr & Zebo get plenty of gametime with their province and continue to develop).
8. Start looking for a backup for kearney. (Don't think Jones' body is up to it).

What's a non-scrummaging side? Nobody in the 6nations are non scrummaging sides, nobody in the 4nations down south are non scrummaging, Georgia and Romania are strong scrummagers. So that leaves Tony Buckely to play USA, Canada, Japan, Tonga, Fiji and Samoa. I'd perfer if Madigan moved to 12 than Sexton.

Australia & NZ are not great scrummaging sides (or they don't rate the scrum as being that important). Buckley on for Ross or Fitz at 60 (when they are knackered) would be a great impact.

You might prefer that, but Ireland's needs are greater than your preferences.

Even though Aus and NZ don’t place as much emphasis on scrummaging as some other nations they still have a decent scrum. Tony Woodcock would turn Buckley inside out.

Why does Madigan need to take placekicks if you suggest playing him along side Sexton?

id rather move drico to 12 than sexton to 12. i have seen no evidence that sexton will be a quality 12 in the cameos we have seen.

Ireland have produced some very good cohesive play with the ROG, Sexton 10/12 axis.

Pete330v2 wrote:
And from what I've seen of Payne he has more talent in his little finger than anyone on the Irish squad at the moment. If he comes back as good as he was he'll be strolling onto the Irish team in two seasons time.

Not sure how comfortable I am with that, or with Strauss coming in. They aren't quite the same as Andy Ward.

really thomond. did it work during the all blacks series?? i was out of country so missed most of it.

i can remember it working ok v australia in the world cup and i think england in aviva. thats it really. the cohesive play you mention simply involved having two kickers on the field to protect a lead and pin the opposition back with kicks. cohesive play to me would mean we looked like scoring tries and creating line breaks with the rog sexton axis. i have not seen any evidence of this but if i have missed something fair enough

Be interesting to see how Payne gets on. If he is nationalized and proves to be a quality option in midfield great. normally i would have reservations but everyone is doing it.

I'm not sure Payne is as good as Kearney, and if he is better, I doubt there is much of a gap in quality. I think we should only be using the project players if we really have no depth, or no good options. We have plenty of options at hooker and full back right now, we have no need for project players.

Also, the Sexton at 12 thing is a complete waste IMO. Sexton should remain at 10, and actually get a full game there for a change. For Leinster, I hope Madigan plays at 12. Sexton holds the 10 shirt, and deservedly so.

[quote="Notch"]

Sin é wrote:I haven't seen too much detail on what the new coach needs to do (fresh perspective & no baggage is not a strategy). All I've heard is get Joe Schmidt in, he is a good coach!

Well it depends when he comes in. If it's the autumn, he needs short-term results more than anything else. Specifically, a win against Argentina which should hopefully secure our seeding for the next Rugby World Cup. Kidney is capable of achieving this, he should be left until the end of the year. The handover from him to a new coach should happen a few months early if possible so we can start the rebuilding process in the Six Nations.

Kidney has just about rebuilt the team - just a lot of injuries at the moment and a very hard and long international season of 17 tests takes it toll (and losing Smal (6Ns), McNaughton & Gaffney as well) so there has been a lot of changes in the coaching staff).

I just don't think Schmidt sees his long term future in Ireland, I imagine he will be returning to New Zealand in the next few years. If he was interested in the job, sure. He's more than earned it. But I think Mike Ruddock is a more likely successor. Ruddock understands how to play the game in such a way that we'll get the best out of our smaller backs and greatly improve our continuity play and offloading. I would not be at all adverse to seeing Gert Smal and Greg Feek continue in their roles with the forwards but we need an entirely new perspective on attack and defence. Certainly a new defence coach is a must, Ruddock can probably handle more hands-on coaching in attack. I would also like to see Brian McLaughlin involved in specialist breakdown coaching for the national team again.

A lot of the people demanding Kidney's head assume that Schmidt will want the job (in fact a lot of them don't realise that Ireland might be viewed as a bit of a poisoned challice).

Not sure about Ruddock - he had problems with players in Wales and he flopped in England. I think his success this year is more down to having a few very good players like Furlong, Henderson & JJ. Lets not forget that Ruddock had JJ playing 12 where he didn't shine as much to get any nominations. Also worth nothing that apparently the Irish U20s were one of the biggest squads this year (Furlong is huge for instance, so is Henderson).

They need to evolve how we play the game as opposed to blooding players for the sake of it. There are a few new players who can come in- Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy- but we should keep working with the group of players we have. Performance will be more important than results at first. The new coach has to completely update how we play the game after all, it will take time and patience. His hands will be tied as much as Kidneys though if the Provinces don't uncover some new blood at 3 and 12. I remain in favour of moving BOD in one to the 12 jersey if not. We just lack options there and it would allow us to bring some pace back into our midfield by using Earls or Bowe at 13. I would rather move Sexton out but ROG is looking like his race is run whilst Jackson isn't quite ready. So that will have to wait.

I think Madigan isn't far off being brought in. A couple of starts in the HCup beside Sexton and BOD and he should be good enough to start for the Wolfhounds in the Autumn & maybe sub against SA. Anyway, Sexton looks far more comfortable at 12 than BOD does.

These are just changes to the coaching staff, tweaks to make sure we get close to our potential. There are many other things that have to change for us to be successful.

A lot of the tweaks are just giving players time to develop, improve like the way Ryan & SOB has come on in the last year.

I think Kidney will now be in a position to separate a lot of the chaff from the wheat. Some players who made that tour will never be seen in a green shirt again (unless about 10 other players are injured).

Notch wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
And from what I've seen of Payne he has more talent in his little finger than anyone on the Irish squad at the moment. If he comes back as good as he was he'll be strolling onto the Irish team in two seasons time.

Not sure how comfortable I am with that, or with Strauss coming in. They aren't quite the same as Andy Ward.

We showed how poor we were with 4/5 potential first teamers injured. I will be happy to increase our player pool any way possible. If theyve spent three years enjoying our culture , paying us taxes and are willing to commit to our country longer term. I have no issue.

dublin_dave wrote:really thomond. did it work during the all blacks series?? i was out of country so missed most of it.

i can remember it working ok v australia in the world cup and i think england in aviva. thats it really. the cohesive play you mention simply involved having two kickers on the field to protect a lead and pin the opposition back with kicks. cohesive play to me would mean we looked like scoring tries and creating line breaks with the rog sexton axis. i have not seen any evidence of this but if i have missed something fair enough

Be interesting to see how Payne gets on. If he is nationalized and proves to be a quality option in midfield great. normally i would have reservations but everyone is doing it.

Yeah we looked alright in the 2nd test when it happened. It worked alright against Italy in the 6 Nations too. We score a few tries, against England I though we lookeed threatening when we used it. It's not afull time option, but it's useful back up, Madigan/Sexton or Sexton/Madigan should be tried too

Also all 3 tests are on youtube but I would suggest not watching the last!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXeZFeDaYnw&feature=plcp first test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqJ-KxVMRPc&feature=channel&list=UL second test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-dCLMzJ6eE&feature=channel&list=UL third test

"Sexton looks far more comfortable at 12 than BOD does"

What proof is there for this? BOD used to play at 12 alongside D'Arcy in his early career. They were interchangeable. Plus, when you were calling for Earls to start at 13 you commented on how great he and BOD were as a 12-13 axis in the Wales game.

dublin_dave wrote:id rather move drico to 12 than sexton to 12. i have seen no evidence that sexton will be a quality 12 in the cameos we have seen.

Watch the 2nd half of the 2nd test match and see how well Ireland played with Sexton/ROG. Look at the first test and see how poor BOD was beside Earls.

Sin é wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:id rather move drico to 12 than sexton to 12. i have seen no evidence that sexton will be a quality 12 in the cameos we have seen.

Watch the 2nd half of the 2nd test match and see how well Ireland played with Sexton/ROG. Look at the first test and see how poor BOD was beside Earls.

Again you have totally contradicted yourself Sin. You said BOD-Earls were great against Wales a few years ago. Secondly BOD was terrible in his 3rd test, one of his worst games ever, at 13. Should he now be moved somewhere else again? Does that mean he isn't a 13? Lastly, as far as I remember, Sexton was actually outside BOD for some reason in the 2nd test.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"Sexton looks far more comfortable at 12 than BOD does"

What proof is there for this? BOD used to play at 12 alongside D'Arcy in his early career. They were interchangeable. Plus, when you were calling for Earls to start at 13 you commented on how great he and BOD were as a 12-13 axis in the Wales game.

They did play very well in that game, but in the first Test against NZ, BOD was very poor, 2nd test he looked to be back to his best again and (probably why P Wallace was brought in - to keep him at 13), but he was really poor in the 3rd test.

I've changed my mind on putting Earls beside BOD. Earls needs a proper 12 beside him if he is going to play 13.

Mickado wrote:Even though Aus and NZ don’t place as much emphasis on scrummaging as some other nations they still have a decent scrum. Tony Woodcock would turn Buckley inside out.

Why does Madigan need to take placekicks if you suggest playing him along side Sexton?

And why I'm suggesting that Buckley is an impact sub.

Madigan needs to be able to play them. What happens if Sexton is injured? Do we have to play McFadden as well (who isn't a certain starter)?
Apparently he can place kick, why not get him doing it?

[quote="Sin é"][quote="Mickado"]

Sin é wrote:


Australia & NZ are not great scrummaging sides (or they don't rate the scrum as being that important). Buckley on for Ross or Fitz at 60 (when they are knackered) would be a great impact.

I'm going to disagree with you. Australia are generally poor, but I don't think NZ is. We'd say we have been up there with the best of them over the last 10 years. When our top side has been out there we've generally more held our own against the top scrummaging sides. Having said that, we didn't scrum well against Ireland. We generally had the edge, until we subbed in the second half, or when our back 3 detached too early. I think we're rejigging our scrum and working on other aspects of our game. Looking at the schedule it makes sense. Ireland have one of the weakest scrums we will face this year.

blackcanelion wrote:

I'm going to disagree with you. Australia are generally poor, but I don't think NZ is. We'd say we have been up there with the best of them over the last 10 years. When our top side has been out there we've generally more held our own against the top scrummaging sides. Having said that, we didn't scrum well against Ireland. We generally had the edge, until we subbed in the second half, or when our back 3 detached too early. I think we're rejigging our scrum and working on other aspects of our game. Looking at the schedule it makes sense. Ireland have one of the weakest scrums we will face this year.

I'd say thee NZ scrum is exactly as good as it needs to be.

clivemcl wrote:

Notch wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
And from what I've seen of Payne he has more talent in his little finger than anyone on the Irish squad at the moment. If he comes back as good as he was he'll be strolling onto the Irish team in two seasons time.

Not sure how comfortable I am with that, or with Strauss coming in. They aren't quite the same as Andy Ward.

We showed how poor we were with 4/5 potential first teamers injured. I will be happy to increase our player pool any way possible. If theyve spent three years enjoying our culture , paying us taxes and are willing to commit to our country longer term. I have no issue.

If we'd had Jared Payne on the tour he'd have been one hell of an option in the centre where he played some of the best rugby in the competition in his last super XV season. He was right up there as one of the best centres in New Zealand and wasn't too shabby at full back either. He's every bit as good as Kearney and in my opinion has a better all round game than Chilli.

[quote="blackcanelion"][quote="Sin é"]

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:


Australia & NZ are not great scrummaging sides (or they don't rate the scrum as being that important). Buckley on for Ross or Fitz at 60 (when they are knackered) would be a great impact.

I'm going to disagree with you. Australia are generally poor, but I don't think NZ is. We'd say we have been up there with the best of them over the last 10 years. When our top side has been out there we've generally more held our own against the top scrummaging sides. Having said that, we didn't scrum well against Ireland. We generally had the edge, until we subbed in the second half, or when our back 3 detached too early. I think we're rejigging our scrum and working on other aspects of our game. Looking at the schedule it makes sense. Ireland have one of the weakest scrums we will face this year.

I'm not saying you are poor at scrummaging, more that you wouldn't be as big into it or as dependent on it as some of the NH sides. Don't think you'll have any problems though in the 4Ns.