Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Fact is Kidney led you to your 1st 6N win in what 40 years?

Na radge he happened to have just stepped into the post when the players won our first GS in 61 years

And has just had to retire the majority of that team.

Only two starting survivors of that team on Saturday - BOD & Kearney.

The team of '09 (in the form they were in then) would destroy the team that started for Ireland on Saturday.

Only if the rules were changed back to suit the defending team.

I don't know about that - BOD for one was playing far better then than he is now. We had a better lineout then. Heislip would still be better than O'Mahony. Ferris better than McLaughlin. Wally was Wally. I think SOB is getting there, but he is not there yet.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:That doesn't make any sense. What's a "place kicking career"?

Is it the part of a players career where he starts to placekick? Well we've established that A) he can kick B) he has kicked and C) on this tour, he wouldn't need to have kicked.
.

I'll explain it like this - was everyone not heaving a sigh of relief when Sexton made those kicks in his first few games in the HCup when Conters got injured?

And c) would mean that McFadden would have had to start somewhere.

Yes, 3 years ago i was sighing with relief, but 3 HC's later, I'm a bit more confident.

The same would apply for Madigan. Practice makes perfect.

How is he getting any practise sitting at home playing xbox?

He might be playing jonah lomu rugby challenge? Might teach him kicking techniques.....

Sin é wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

You have to start it against someone. The crowd weren't quite for the kicks (he could pretend he was in the Liberty or Thomond pk)! Also, McFadden was on the wing, also a recognised kicker and ahead of Madigan in the Joe Show Kicking List so the youngster could have played and had McF kick. The options were there.

Nothing got to do with how noisy the crowd is. The silence seems to be more of a problem for kickers.
And relying on McFadden meant that he was going to have to be on the pitch at the same time and he would not be a nailed on starter and while he tries hard, I don't think he is an international class winger.

Bit despite that, McFadden was on the field playing anyway. So it was an option. Your reckoning that he isn't an international class winger is a separate argument.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

You have to start it against someone. The crowd weren't quite for the kicks (he could pretend he was in the Liberty or Thomond pk)! Also, McFadden was on the wing, also a recognised kicker and ahead of Madigan in the Joe Show Kicking List so the youngster could have played and had McF kick. The options were there.

Nothing got to do with how noisy the crowd is. The silence seems to be more of a problem for kickers.
And relying on McFadden meant that he was going to have to be on the pitch at the same time and he would not be a nailed on starter and while he tries hard, I don't think he is an international class winger.

Bit despite that, McFadden was on the field playing anyway. So it was an option. Your reckoning that he isn't an international class winger is a separate argument.

Based on 3 tests observation, McFadden isn't an international class winger - and that was fairly apparent after the 1st test. But that comes down to selection, and the selectors.

Nobody is arguing to the contrary Kiwi. He wasn’t good.

But he was on the pitch for 3 tests and he can take place kicks. Which is the point we’re making.

Mickado wrote:How is he getting any practise sitting at home playing xbox?

More likely practicing his kicking. Leinster are probably back for pre-season now (or will be next week). Munster were back last week.

With Sexton & McFadden out of the way in early season, he should get a bit of practice.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

You have to start it against someone. The crowd weren't quite for the kicks (he could pretend he was in the Liberty or Thomond pk)! Also, McFadden was on the wing, also a recognised kicker and ahead of Madigan in the Joe Show Kicking List so the youngster could have played and had McF kick. The options were there.

Nothing got to do with how noisy the crowd is. The silence seems to be more of a problem for kickers.
And relying on McFadden meant that he was going to have to be on the pitch at the same time and he would not be a nailed on starter and while he tries hard, I don't think he is an international class winger.

Bit despite that, McFadden was on the field playing anyway. So it was an option. Your reckoning that he isn't an international class winger is a separate argument.

Based on 3 tests observation, McFadden isn't an international class winger - and that was fairly apparent after the 1st test. But that comes down to selection, and the selectors.

He more down to limited options which were novices at this level (Zebo or maybe Gilroy) or an out of form Trimble. Injury list includes Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitz & Dave Kearney.

Did we need to see the third test to know he wasn't up to scratch? Why not give a younger player a shot. We couldn't have won the series, we got beaten 60-0 anyway.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:So you are saying that he changed the defencive organisation between the 2nd and third tests?

He had a change in the centre and on the wing. Was the organisation greatly changed? I could understand if it was a new player coming in one who had never played alongside the likes of Sexton, BOD or any other Irish back before but it's 2 very experienced players who shouldn't need to be shown how to tackle or organise themselves.

Kidney has nothing to do with this, if a backline with 269 international test caps between them can't organise themselves defensivley maybe you're players are simply not good enough.

I'm trying to be constructive here and show you that you have played well under Kidney but some just seem out for his blood.

The big differance with us in Scotland is we are struggling to see the positives under Robinson when we had our worst ever world cup, have won 2 out of 15 in the 6N. Compare that to Ireland, best RWC in your history and 6N grand slammers.

Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!

Grow up?

Mate, you haven't a clue. Do me a favour and read the rest of this thread. Read what I have said about Kidney, the players, and the coaching before assuming a load of waffle that I haven't even said. Our defence hasn't been as tight and organised (one of our real strengths this season) since our defensive coach has also been given the role of organising the attack. Our defence has suffered as a result. It was good in the second game, but once again we have a good one off performance clouded by many poor ones.

Of course, I will make sure to remind you of all this hypocrisy the next time you moan about Robinson.

"Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!"

Brought us to our lowest world ranking position?

Pete330v2 wrote:"Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!"

Brought us to our lowest world ranking position?

No. We've been worse. For the 2003 World Cup the team had to play in the qualifiers (played Russia in Siberia)!

This time 4 years ago we were 8th. We're now 7th and unless Argentina beat France at home, and Scotland beat the All Blacks & South Africa we are more than likely going to either stay at 7 or improve our standing.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!"

Brought us to our lowest world ranking position?

No. We've been worse. For the 2003 World Cup the team had to play in the qualifiers (played Russia in Siberia)!

This time 4 years ago we were 8th. We're now 7th and unless Argentina beat France at home, and Scotland beat the All Blacks & South Africa we are more than likely going to either stay at 7 or improve our standing.

Incorrect Sin, the rankings system was introduced one month before the world cup in 2003, the first were issued in September of that year, Kidney has improved us ever so slightly. Let's celebrate.

So we've gone back to where we were 10 years ago in the world rankings and things can only get better?

Is that a positive spin on things Sin?

The main flaw in the logic here is that Kidney apparently has done so much for our team (a few good wins amongst many more losses) and Kidney can take the credit for that, but when the team loses it is the players and we should leave little Deccie out of this. You see how ironic that is? Nobody has even put all the blame on Kidney either. He is not doing a good job though (which is quite clear to anyone who has watched or knows anything about irish rugby).

I don't even know why I am explaining this (again) for the people who refuse to read, but it has been noted that since the law changes, Ireland have struggled to adapt. Kidney hasn't changed his tactics, and things have just went downhill. He won a grand slam which was great, but things have steadily declined since to where we are now. As for furthest in the world cup yet, do you really think that is an achievement? Lets be honest, if Italy had went through and not us, that would have been a shock. I'm not showing a "lack of respect" or anything to Italy, but we are expected to beat them. We beat Australia which is great, but again another great one off performance. Our inconsistency is appalling, and our back play has been woeful for a while now.

How can a coach be blamed for inconsistency?

I trully can't be bothered reading through the 12 pages of this article since as Kiwiredevil pointed out it's been going round in circles. I'm trying to point out that your players seemed to have an off day when New Zealand were in the mood to hand out a thrashing.

Thats a bad combination.

A forum is here so I can read your comments and try to understand where you are coming from and you can read mine to understand where I am coming from. It's not up to you to tell me I don't have a clue just because you don't agree with me.

My comment about growing up comes from throwing the toys out of the pram when a team much better than yours beats you. Had the tour concluded after the close defeat in Christchurch you would be singing a differant tune.

The players who played in that final match didn't play well and I can list plenty of reasons why. Perhaps they were looking forward to their holidays? Perhaps they felt over confident after bring NZ so close the week before? I don't know. What I do know is "star players" let you down. That's no fault of the coach.

Thomond wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!"

Brought us to our lowest world ranking position?

No. We've been worse. For the 2003 World Cup the team had to play in the qualifiers (played Russia in Siberia)!

This time 4 years ago we were 8th. We're now 7th and unless Argentina beat France at home, and Scotland beat the All Blacks & South Africa we are more than likely going to either stay at 7 or improve our standing.

Incorrect Sin, the rankings system was introduced one month before the world cup in 2003, the first were issued in September of that year, Kidney has improved us ever so slightly. Let's celebrate.

While generally its good fun to watch the rankings, they become important when the draw for the world cup begins. We don't want to be in the third tier and we certainly don't want to have to go to Siberia to qualify which has happened in the past.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:How can a coach be blamed for inconsistency?

I trully can't be bothered reading through the 12 pages of this article since as Kiwiredevil pointed out it's been going round in circles. I'm trying to point out that your player seemed to have an off day when New Zealand were in the mood to hand out a thrashing.

Thats a bad combination.

A forum is here so I can read your comments and try to understand where you are coming from and you can read mine to understand where I am coming from. It's not up to you to tell me I don't have a clue just because you don't agree with me.

My comment about growing up comes from throwing the toys out of the pram when a team much better than yours beats you. Had the tour concluded after the close defeat in Christchurch you would be singing a differant tune.

The players who played in that final match didn't play well and I can list plenty of reasons why. Perhaps they were looking forward to their holidays? Perhaps they felt over confident after bring NZ so close the week before? I don't know. What I do know is "star players" let you down. That's no fault of the coach.

No, the reason you don't have a clue is because you are assuming (wrongly) what I have said, putting words in my mouth, and you are making silly cliches to make your point, which don't even make sense. No, I am not "looking for blood". I'm looking for a coach who can create a winning team, and I don't think the coach we have is the man to do this. There it is in the most simple form I can put it.

Actually, I wouldn't have "sang a different tune" either. I think just about every irish fan on here said a good performance will mean nothing unless the team can back it up the next time, as we are sick of one off performances. Ireland didn't deliver, and they didn't back it up, so the close game means absolutely nothing. It is still a loss, and we still were whitewashed this tour.

It's a caoch's job to get his players up to the job, or put in a good shift. Kidney has failed to do so consistently.

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!"

Brought us to our lowest world ranking position?

No. We've been worse. For the 2003 World Cup the team had to play in the qualifiers (played Russia in Siberia)!

This time 4 years ago we were 8th. We're now 7th and unless Argentina beat France at home, and Scotland beat the All Blacks & South Africa we are more than likely going to either stay at 7 or improve our standing.

Incorrect Sin, the rankings system was introduced one month before the world cup in 2003, the first were issued in September of that year, Kidney has improved us ever so slightly. Let's celebrate.

While generally its good fun to watch the rankings, they become important when the draw for the world cup begins. We don't want to be in the third tier and we certainly don't want to have to go to Siberia to qualify which has happened in the past.

Oh I don't know, might be a nice trip

Kidney has a proven track record of being able to get his player up to the Job. At Munster and at Ireland..... 2 Heineken Cups and a 6N Grand Slam. With victories over Australia and South Africa.

Fair enough you don't rate Kidney.

If you think another coach will come in and work wonders you have another think coming.

Irleand's players let you down on Saturday, not the coach. Furthermore if a backline with 269 caps between them can't put in a good shift without a coach motivating them or getting them up to the job perhaps those 269 caps have been misplaced.

I seriously doubt that though since Sexton is IMO a lions starter next year, Kearney too and BOD IMO is one of the finest 13s to ever play the game.

They had an off day at the wrong time. They are still good players and Kidney's track record shows he is a good coach.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Kidney has a proven track record of being able to get his player up to the Job. At Munster and at Ireland..... 2 Heineken Cups and a 6N Grand Slam. With victories over Australia and South Africa.

Fair enough you don't rate Kidney.

If you think another coach will come in and work wonders you have another think coming.

Irleand's players let you down on Saturday, not the coach. Furthermore if a backline with 269 caps between them can't put in a good shift without a coach motivating them or getting them up to the job perhaps those 269 caps have been misplaced.

I seriously doubt that though since Sexton is IMO a lions starter next year, Kearney too and BOD IMO is one of the finest 13s to ever play the game.

They had an off day at the wrong time. They are still good players and Kidney's track record shows he is a good coach.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Kidney has a proven track record of being able to get his player up to the Job. At Munster and at Ireland..... 2 Heineken Cups and a 6N Grand Slam. With victories over Australia and South Africa.

Fair enough you don't rate Kidney.

If you think another coach will come in and work wonders you have another think coming.

Irleand's players let you down on Saturday, not the coach. Furthermore if a backline with 269 caps between them can't put in a good shift without a coach motivating them or getting them up to the job perhaps those 269 caps have been misplaced.

I seriously doubt that though since Sexton is IMO a lions starter next year, Kearney too and BOD IMO is one of the finest 13s to ever play the game.

They had an off day at the wrong time. They are still good players and Kidney's track record shows he is a good coach.

As stag posted earlier in this thread:

"If we were to focus on matches involving England, France, Wales, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand (i.e. the teams I would be hoping to be on a par with as opposed to Italy, Scotland, Fiji, Samoa, USA, Russia etc) over the past two seasons we have this.

Lost to New Zealand
Lost to Australia
Lost to South Africa
Lost to New Zealand
Lost to France
Lost to Wales
Beat England
Lost to France
Lost to France
Lost to England
Beat Australia
Lost to Wales
Lost to Wales
Drew with France
Lost to England
Lost to New Zealand
Lost to New Zealand
Lost to New Zealand"

You seriously think that is a good track record?

What so leading Munster to 2 HCs and dominating the Magners league and a 6N grand slam constitutes him being a poor coach?

Radge et al.

I think it's important to appreciate that there are a few things here;

a) The coach is widely accepted to be not up to the job.
b) There are a lot of other factors including missing players, a hint of looking forward to the end of a long season, the 'Blacklash' from last week, senior players failing to perform, players not doing things they should do.

b) Is largely the fault of the players as Radge is pointing out. But b) cannot be addressed because of a). These big one-off games followed by mediocre and poor performances are a hallmark of the Kidneys time in charge. If he could identify why successful, experienced, senior players don't perform consistently for Ireland and address that we wouldn't almost all agree with a).

I think it's worth saying that I was a defender of Kidney when he was first criticised by fans as early as 2010, and right until the Rugby World Cup I defended him. Give him time to show he can turn it around I said in the run-up to this season; judge him on what happens this year.

The reason I wrote the OP was to look at the entirety of the 2011-2012 season, not just the last two or three tests. Because I don't believe the 60-0 defeat is fully representative of where we are at and we can't only focus on that one result. The same way I don't believe the previous weeks performance or the one in the RWC against Australia is representative of the team we are because they aren't backed up. There are a lot of outliers, but looking at the season as a whole has really cemented my view that Kidney has done everything he can with this team and there's not much grounds for optimism his regime will improve things.

Basically; not all the problems are the fault of the coaches. But the coaches seem to have no idea how to address the problems the team faces and they're creating problems as well.

This has nothing to do with Munster for a start, and his grand slam win was in his first year, before the laws changed. Since then, we have been on the decline. That is like pointing out all of ROG's achievements over the years, it doesn't make him a good player currently.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:What so leading Munster to 2 HCs and dominating the Magners league and a 6N grand slam constitutes him being a poor coach?

No, he was successful before he got the job. But good coach or bad coach, he's not good enough. There's little doubt of it now. The raw statistics don't lie. It's his track record with Ireland thats getting worse every season. It's our winning percentage thats plummeting like a stone. You can only live off past glories for so long in a professional sport.

Radge, most would accept Kidney has done great things for Ireland and Munster. The thing is what is he doing for us now? Or what has he done for us in the last year? Before you saw the WC ,EOS got us to a 1/4 too.


The only manager I would say who has kept his job despite results is Arsene Wenger , and that's another sport.

Radge, you really haven't a clue about what you are talking about, so perhaps sick to a subject you do understand, presumably Scotland and Scottish rugby.

We have one numbskull too many floating around like a fart in a spacesuit already.

YES IN THE PAST!!!! a word that some kidneyites love hanging onto for dear life.

im guessing non irish posters who think kidney is doing a good job have not had the "pleasure" of watching every game over the last 3 years. save a few exceptions we have been crap. lets be honest with ourselves its the only way we will move forward (the assasination of gerry thornley et al would help spreading nonsense about progress in the press)

one off victories will not win you a grand slam, will not win you a triple crown and will get you no further than the group stages in the world cup. if thats the height of our ambition while our provinces lord it fair enough keep him. i will pass on spending my hard earned cash watching the guff our national team has served up over the last 2 years.

Of course the players are not blameless they are partly responsible. Deccie is accountable im afraid. If we have the exact same coaching line up and no new attacking voice for the autumn internationals im giving up

mind you a trip to siberia for a world cup qualifier though a new low could be interesting. can imagine deccies interview beforehand

"well to be fair the siberian lads are now playing in the pan asian league so will need to be respected. we will need to go out onto the pitch (steppe) keep it tight and aim for a tight win. rog is fit and raring to go (age 40) should he be required"

Duigers wrote:Radge, you really haven't a clue about what you are talking about, so perhaps sick to a subject you do understand, presumably Scotland and Scottish rugby.

We have one numbskull too many floating around like a fart in a spacesuit already.

Thanks for that someone with 16 posts feels that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about

Age is a factor in ROG's play (strength/fitness/reflexes/stamina are all affected by age). Ergo comparing Kidney to ROG is a bit of a strange comment to make.

Kidney isn't expected to shackle his opposite number in the contact (Not that ROG did much of that anyway).

This is the last I'll say on the matter. Kidney is responsible for a lot of the debacle on Saturday but not exclusively responsible. His "Star Players" didn't look like stars in that game for whatever reason.

Notch has said it best, Kidney is in a position where (just like this thread) he has created a super conducting loop where he maybe can't get the best out of his players but equally he retains faith in said players because they have played well in the recent past.

In truth Irelad have little options outside the likes of Kearney, Earls or any of the others who didn't perform as well as they could have.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Duigers wrote:Radge, you really haven't a clue about what you are talking about, so perhaps sick to a subject you do understand, presumably Scotland and Scottish rugby.

We have one numbskull too many floating around like a fart in a spacesuit already.

Thanks for that

Age is a factor in ROG's play (strength/fitness/reflexes/stamina are all affected by age). Ergo comparing Kidney to ROG is a bit of a strange comment to make.

Kidney isn't expected to shackle his opposite number in the contact (Not that ROG did much of that anyway).

This is the last I'll say on the matter. Kidney is responsible for a lot of the debacle on Saturday but not exclusively responsible. His "Star Players" didn't look like stars in that game for whatever reason.

Notch has said it best, Kidney is in a position where (just like this thread) he has created a super conducting loop where he maybe can't get the best out of his players but equally he retains faith in said players because they have played well in the recent past.

In truth Irelad have little options outside the likes of Kearney, Earls or any of the others who didn't perform as well as they could have.

Most would agree with that and I would too, I think your initial stance has changed somewhat but sure no harm. We know Kidney isn't the sole problem with the side. I think KiaRose rasied an excellent point the other day in regards to the Leinster boys.

Thomond wrote:Most would agree with that and I would too, I think your initial stance has changed somewhat but sure no harm. We know Kidney isn't the sole problem with the side. I think KiaRose rasied an excellent point the other day in regards to the Leinster boys.

Thats what forums are for, seeing a differant point of view and absorbing those views into your own.

You can't blame a coach for over 30 missed tackles in an international test match though.

You miss 30 tackles against Scotland and you'll probably be beaten too. You can't win test matches making that many mistakes. Those mistakes were made by players, not by an old man sitting in the Grandstand.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Thomond wrote:Most would agree with that and I would too, I think your initial stance has changed somewhat but sure no harm. We know Kidney isn't the sole problem with the side. I think KiaRose rasied an excellent point the other day in regards to the Leinster boys.

Thats what forums are for, seeing a differant point of view and absorbing those views into your own.

You can't blame a coach for over 30 missed tackles in an international test match though.

You miss 30 tackles against Scotland and you'll probably be beaten too. You can't win test matches making that many mistakes. Those mistakes were made by players, not by an old man sitting in the Grandstand.

Well maybe not Scotland but you miss 30 tackles against most opponents you won't win the match.

Was it last Saturday where we missed 30 tackles? The players deserve a fair bit of criticism as I said some didn't look bothered.

Yep 32 to be precise

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/153844.html

if we missed 30 tackles v scotland they would probably manage a single try at best and 10 dan parks penalties.

dublin_dave wrote:if we missed 30 tackles v scotland they would probably manage a single try at best and 10 dan parks penalties.

Luckily we won't ever see Dan Parks playing for Scotland again. Having said that Ireland typically save our blushes in terms of Try Scoring in test matches Richie Gray scored a belter in the last game we played against you guys. Furthermore the last 4 times we have played we are currently at 2 games apiece.

Thomond wrote:Was it last Saturday where we missed 30 tackles? The players deserve a fair bit of criticism as I said some didn't look bothered.

You'd want to be pretty one-eyed to have missed the amount of tackles that were missed by Ireland in the last Test. NZ missed 6.

One of the Australian newspapers/website had most of the NZ team in their international team of the week.
Non-NZ players to make it were Berrick Barnes, Chris Ashton, Nathan Sharpe & Adam Jones.

That is 4 non-kiwi players in the team of the week in an Australian publication (so you can't accuse them of being one-eyed).

Tracy Nelson in the NZ herald analysis.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/tracey-nelson/news/article.cfm?a_id=697&objectid=10815387

Thomond wrote:Radge, most would accept Kidney has done great things for Ireland and Munster. The thing is what is he doing for us now? Or what has he done for us in the last year? Before you saw the WC ,EOS got us to a 1/4 too.

The only manager I would say who has kept his job despite results is Arsene Wenger , and that's another sport.

Soccer is a whole different ballgame where most fans come to expect that their manager should be sacked if they lose 2 or 3 games on the trot. Its sort of like people power being able call for the manager's head. I hate the way that this attitude is creeping into rugby & gaa - and its mainly in the countries neighbouring England (though France & Italy haven't adopted that practice yet). A lot of people would claim that Robbie Deans is very lucky to still have his job and as a kiwi, I doubt if there would be a lot of love lost between him and the fans.

Has the point sunk in yet that out of the Grand Slam winning team in '09, two started on Saturday and that in the last year Ireland have used 47 or 48 players this season (and not all of them could ever be Test class).

Isn't that instructive though?

After 2009, Kidney had to rebuild the team. We needed a new gameplan and we needed to bring through new players. He hasn't really accomplished any of that. What I haven't seen you make is a case for how we are going to get back to 2009 levels either in the short term or the long term. Or how Kidney is going to reverse the decline of this side and put us back on an upwards trajectory.

Yes, it's important to have realistic expectations but if you never set high standards you'll never reach them. There are a lot of structural problems that need to be addressed regarding how the IRFU, the national team and the provinces work together. And whoever comes into replace Kidney at the end of his contract needs to be given more support than his predecessor.

But christ, if I could be presented one shred of evidence that the head coach can do anything to arrest this slide I'd be a bit more sympathetic. I haven't seen one. I was ready to give him a break after the result until I looked at the bigger picture and realised how damning it really is. A LOT of our problems come down to an inadequate gameplan and tactics. At least a new man will come into it with no baggage and hopefully a fresh perspective on the way we need to play the game.

The argument seems to be "It's not all his fault". And I agree, if we make him a scapegoat and replace him without making other changes we won't improve as much as we need to. But is there really any reason he should be retained? We need changes. They must start with the coach; but if they end there, we're in difficulties.

so its a real soccer attitude to questions a head coach who has delivered predominantly crap performances since his last success in early 2009 and whose win loss ration gets worse by the year??

i expected nothing from the tour to New Zealand at the end of a gruelling season but i am disappointed that Kidney did not even look at appointing a backs coach for the tour. I also cannot believe that as opposed to trying something new in midfield he summonsed paddy wallace from his holidays who not surprisingly was dreadful and not fit. maddening

the players need to cop a lot of it for the 3rd test but 3 tests is vicious. surely a 2 test series would have been sufficient and maybe a game against samoa where cave etc would see the pitch

http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/sport/keith-wood-on-the-state-of-irish-rugby/

I like this interview with Keith Wood. His comments on the soft drift defence are especially valid. Unfortunately both the coaches and the players made fundamental errors in that one game. It was ugly.

I do disagree with him that Kidney picked a good squad. If he had, he wouldn't have needed to draft in Wallace when D'Arcy was injured. It was one of the things that was handled exceptionally poorly in this test series.

But I think he has a valid point that Kidney needs to stay in the short term- but only because we need to get the next appointment right. This is no time for a knee jerk response. But whilst he broadly supports Kidney, he does point out the many inadequacies of our current set-up. I can't see past them the way he does. He points out the many things that are going wrong (questionable defensive system, selection errors, lack of attack coach, poor breakdown work) but he still stands by the man in charge. I don't see what new element Kidney can bring at this stage and he acknowledges that himself.

How the IRFU handles this transition year- the last of Kidney, the recruitment process and any systemic reform thats coming down the line- that will be key for us. I think this interview illustrates the key point for me; the coaching is a problem, but we need to address everything thats holding this team back. Starting with the coach but also looking at central contracting, the player management programme, the provinces, NIQ players etc. Could get ugly man.

I would like to see a new coach, so long as we can find someone better because in case we forget there are not dozens of wonderful coaches out there to pick from.

I would like to point out that only two players from the 2009 team that won the GS started the last test against NZ. Kidney has brought new players onto the team. Lots of them. He has not neglected this part of his job. I'm really hoping also that this is one reason for our inconsistency. I never remember our rugby team being this inconsistent.

Right now I want to see a backs coach brought in. I don't care if it makes Kidney look bad. It's needed.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:How can a coach be blamed for inconsistency?

I trully can't be bothered reading through the 12 pages of this article since as Kiwiredevil pointed out it's been going round in circles. I'm trying to point out that your players seemed to have an off day when New Zealand were in the mood to hand out a thrashing.

Thats a bad combination.

A forum is here so I can read your comments and try to understand where you are coming from and you can read mine to understand where I am coming from. It's not up to you to tell me I don't have a clue just because you don't agree with me.

My comment about growing up comes from throwing the toys out of the pram when a team much better than yours beats you. Had the tour concluded after the close defeat in Christchurch you would be singing a differant tune.

The players who played in that final match didn't play well and I can list plenty of reasons why. Perhaps they were looking forward to their holidays? Perhaps they felt over confident after bring NZ so close the week before? I don't know. What I do know is "star players" let you down. That's no fault of the coach.

Why do you assume we're only complaining since this tour began,we've been making these complaints about Kidney for 2 years.We also gave him and his staff credit for the performance in the 2nd Test but said it would count for nothing if we didn't back it up.We were shown to be right because yet again Kidney failed to get the team to perform consistently well for 2 games in a row.That has been the major hallmark of his tenure.

dublin_dave wrote:so its a real soccer attitude to questions a head coach who has delivered predominantly crap performances since his last success in early 2009 and whose win loss ration gets worse by the year??

i expected nothing from the tour to New Zealand at the end of a gruelling season but i am disappointed that Kidney did not even look at appointing a backs coach for the tour. I also cannot believe that as opposed to trying something new in midfield he summonsed paddy wallace from his holidays who not surprisingly was dreadful and not fit. maddening

the players need to cop a lot of it for the 3rd test but 3 tests is vicious. surely a 2 test series would have been sufficient and maybe a game against samoa where cave etc would see the pitch

Not much questioning of the coach - just blaming and looking for his head. Thats part of English soccer culture.

You have no idea why a backs coach wasn't appointed. Maybe IRFU are trying to save a few bob, or maybe there are no interested candidates. It hasn't been exactly plain sailing for England with Wayne Smith turning down the job in preference to be defence coach of a Super 15 club.

Don't hang all the blame on Paddy Wallace being called up for that loss. How about why D'Arcy's body broke down again is more of the issue.

Ireland/Kidney just don't get to pick who they play (IRB would co-ordinate the fixtures). Before this series some people were annoyed as to why Ireland were not playing a mid-week game as well which the NZ union wanted and Ireland/Kidney said no to.

It seems to be a common thing on this thread to say in one breath 'Kidney isn't to blame, the players are' whilst in the same breath saying 'Kidney brought us the Grand Slam'. Which way is it folks? Players or coach? Who do we blame for the last few seasons of dull, unexciting and dark times for Irish rugby.

As DK said himself "But you’re the coach, you’re the one that has the responsibility to rectify it." So ultimately it's he that is responsible and he who must shoulder the blame. He accepted all the praise for the GS with good grace and needs to accept the blame for our current problems.

There is no knee-jerk reaction for Irish fans, we've been complaining about Kidney for some time now. Personally I complained from when he was first appointed but that's just my personal opinion. I can't see why we should persist with something that isn't working. Much in the same way DK persists with things that everyone else can see don't work. We expect more from the Irish side and have a right to. It's always darkest before the dawn and we're in a dark place now so fingers crossed the IRFU can see sense.

sin im not blaming paddy wallace in the slightest. im blaming mr kidney for selecting him from his holidays as opposed to look at cave or mc fadden in midfield. it was a daft call please dont try and convince me otherwise.

if kidney can veto a mid week game surely he has some input into the tour fixtures and selection of his back room staff. if he thinks we need a new backs/attack coach he should be throwing a strop about it. i know gaffney was not great but it allowed kiss to concentrate on defence and not double job.

save an occasional great backs to the wall performance we get worse each year. i have questioned kidney before but am now really concerned about whether he has any plan to move us forward. i think we need a new coach and a new voice. his odd interviews are starting to grate now.