Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Radge, what do you think a coach is responsible for out of interest? What is a coach's role?

It depends on what he is brough in to do. Put it another way I was one of the ones wanting Andy Robinson sacked at Scotland, my reasons is because Andy Robinson made absolute howlers.

Dan Parks playing against England.
Nathan Hines at Blind side Flanker
John Barclay at 8
Sean Lamont at 12

to name 4.

Kidney has made some unusual calls as detailed by previous posts.

However the coach always has the final word in selecting the team, but he is advised by the Attacking Coach (in Scotlands case Townsend who was promptly shifted to Glasgow shame on them), the Forwards coach and the defensive coach. They will all have influence in Kidney's decision making. I'm not saying Kidney hasn't made mistakes and I'm positive he will shoulder the bulk of the blame & deservedly so.

But this entire thread seems like a typical Irish Knee jerk reaction. You were playing the best team in the world in their Own country with 4 key players missing, missed over 30 tackles and had to play for 10 minutes without Kearney arguably one of your best players.

Kidney can be blamed for selection but not for proffesional rugby players falling off tackles, letting thir heads go down and being routed.

Some will argue that the coach is responsible for rallying the troops and instilling some pride to go back out and hold the line. That is also the job of the captain BOD who is one of the best. Furthermore if being 29 points down at half time is'nt enough motivation to go out and try and salvage a bit of pride, I don't know what is.

Kidney has made mistakes but the debacle of Saturday can't be all thrown at him. Especially when the same team came so close the Saturday before.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Ian Madigan has played in 2 HC finals. He set up two tries in his last game for Leinster. The only time ROG comes onto the field is when Sexton moves to IC so why not do the same with Madigan?

I said meaningful. Why didn't he come on against the Ospreys in the Rabo Final?

Facts are he is only brought on when the game is won (and there are at least 2 other placekickers on the pitch).

Right forget the finals. ROG hasn't taken a kick for Ireland all year, why does Madigan need to be able to kick but ROG doesn't?

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Ian Madigan has played in 2 HC finals. He set up two tries in his last game for Leinster. The only time ROG comes onto the field is when Sexton moves to IC so why not do the same with Madigan?

I said meaningful. Why didn't he come on against the Ospreys in the Rabo Final?

Facts are he is only brought on when the game is won (and there are at least 2 other placekickers on the pitch).

Right forget the finals. ROG hasn't taken a kick for Ireland all year, why does Madigan need to be able to kick but ROG doesn't?

He has - against the Barbarians (we won't talk about the start of the season at the world cup just now). ROG is a proven international place kicker, Madigan has yet to prove himself at Rabo level

To those that have queried commitment to club/country. As an outsider I would question whether it is actually that unusual for players to value the Heineken Cup over internationals? I recall Martin Johnson being asked in an interview what was the favourite moment in his career, and his response was winning the Heineken Cup. I can't remember his exact words, but it was to the effect that yes the world cup was the most prestigious but the players at Tigers were the ones he trained with week in week out and was closest to, therefore to share that with them was more enjoyable and had more significance to him. I appreciate it's extrapolating, but I assume that many are in the same boat.

Big you have a bit of a point, it's like GAA players who say winning the Club All-Ireland is more special? Why? You have been palying with a lot of those guys since you were aroudn 6 years old and some of them have been your friends and neighbours for life.

clivemcl wrote:
Earls - started at 12 for the 1st Test and Ireland still lost. By a margin 30points less than when we lost with Wallace

A factor could be that after the improvement of the BOD/D'Arcy partnership from the BOD/Earls partnershp that it was better to have a player who played there normally rather than Earls or Cave who have never or rarely play there.

It should also be taken into consideration that Earls was coming back from an injury and might not have been up to playing in that position.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Our midfield was the main reason we leaked so many tries. Kidney selected a 12 who hasn't played since the HEC final and was on holiday, without picking him in his original squad.

Paddy Wallace started against the Barbarians. He had just gone on holiday by the way. Said he had been training all along at home.

He chose him over the other options he brought on the tour (Cave, Earls, McFadden). We were completely disorganised in defence, something we usually are at least good at. Who is in charge of making sure the team is organised in those areas of the game?

Cave has never played inside centre in his life before and you want to start him against the ABs? (and he didn't have a great time in his 10 minute cameo in the 1st Test).
Earls - started at 12 for the 1st Test and Ireland still lost.
McFadden - He has been tried at 12 before and has been found wanting.

Clearly I was suggesting that BOD would move to 12 with Cave outside him. So do you really think Wallace was the best option at 12 Sin? After saying he was out of his depth? Surely Kidney got this one wrong then.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Radge, what do you think a coach is responsible for out of interest? What is a coach's role?

It depends on what he is brough in to do. Put it another way I was one of the ones wanting Andy Robinson sacked at Scotland, my reasons is because Andy Robinson made absolute howlers.

Dan Parks playing against England.
Nathan Hines at Blind side Flanker
John Barclay at 8
Sean Lamont at 12

to name 4.

Kidney has made some unusual calls as detailed by previous posts.

However the coach always has the final word in selecting the team, but he is advised by the Attacking Coach (in Scotlands case Townsend who was promptly shifted to Glasgow shame on them), the Forwards coach and the defensive coach. They will all have influence in Kidney's decision making. I'm not saying Kidney hasn't made mistakes and I'm positive he will shoulder the bulk of the blame & deservedly so.

But this entire thread seems like a typical Irish Knee jerk reaction. You were playing the best team in the world in their Own country with 4 key players missing, missed over 30 tackles and had to play for 10 minutes without Kearney arguably one of your best players.

Kidney can be blamed for selection but not for proffesional rugby players falling off tackles, letting thir heads go down and being routed.

Some will argue that the coach is responsible for rallying the troops and instilling some pride to go back out and hold the line. That is also the job of the captain BOD who is one of the best. Furthermore if being 29 points down at half time is'nt enough motivation to go out and try and salvage a bit of pride, I don't know what is.

Kidney has made mistakes but the debacle of Saturday can't be all thrown at him. Especially when the same team came so close the Saturday before.

We don't even have an attacking coach though. And yes, I have noticed how angry you and a lot of your fellow scots have been with Robinson, calling for his head. Which is why I am finding this all a tad hypocritical..

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Ian Madigan has played in 2 HC finals. He set up two tries in his last game for Leinster. The only time ROG comes onto the field is when Sexton moves to IC so why not do the same with Madigan?

I said meaningful. Why didn't he come on against the Ospreys in the Rabo Final?

Facts are he is only brought on when the game is won (and there are at least 2 other placekickers on the pitch).

Right forget the finals. ROG hasn't taken a kick for Ireland all year, why does Madigan need to be able to kick but ROG doesn't?

He has - against the Barbarians (we won't talk about the start of the season at the world cup just now). ROG is a proven international place kicker, Madigan has yet to prove himself at Rabo level

So, we bring ROG on tour and don't ask him to kick, but we can't bring a better player on tour and ask him not to kick?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Clearly I was suggesting that BOD would move to 12 with Cave outside him. So do you really think Wallace was the best option at 12 Sin? After saying he was out of his depth? Surely Kidney got this one wrong then.

Possibly felt that it was better playing players in their usual positions (leaving BOD at 13) as happened the previous week with BOD at 13 and D'Arcy at 12.

Very good point Mickado - Sin, your argument makes no sense, ROG doesn't even take the kicks anymore when he comes on.

Well BOD had an awful game in the 3rd test, in his best position.

Big wrote:To those that have queried commitment to club/country. As an outsider I would question whether it is actually that unusual for players to value the Heineken Cup over internationals? I recall Martin Johnson being asked in an interview what was the favourite moment in his career, and his response was winning the Heineken Cup. I can't remember his exact words, but it was to the effect that yes the world cup was the most prestigious but the players at Tigers were the ones he trained with week in week out and was closest to, therefore to share that with them was more enjoyable and had more significance to him. I appreciate it's extrapolating, but I assume that many are in the same boat.

I agree. Sometimes it's hard to generate the same bonds and camaraderie as exists naturally with the guys you train with every week in the relatively limited timespan you have together in international rugby.

Just look at the 2001 and 2005 Lions Tours compared to 2009.

Mickado wrote:
So, we bring ROG on tour and don't ask him to kick, but we can't bring a better player on tour and ask him not to kick?

eh, ROG could kick if needed. Sexton would probably have had another hissy fit if ROG took over the kicking as well. Anything for a quite life.

Right, I'm out. Sin, congratulations getting another dig in on Sexton. You must be so proud..

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
So, we bring ROG on tour and don't ask him to kick, but we can't bring a better player on tour and ask him not to kick?

eh, ROG could kick if needed. Sexton would probably have had another hissy fit if ROG took over the kicking as well. Anything for a quite life.

WOW WOW WOW, so you mean to tell me that ROG COULD kick if he needed to, but we DOESN'T kick because there's a better kicker on the pitch? Now, where have I heard that before...

But yeah, we all love a quite life.

Rory, Sin- I think O'Driscoll is casting a bit too large a shadow now. Once we're having to fly players in with next to no preparation time to accommodate him he's too big for the team.

We shouldn't have picked Wallace. He's been doing some fitness work by himself but no sessions with his teammates or the coaches, no gametime for a number of weeks- disaster waiting to happen. But we did it because we weren't willing to move BOD to accommodate Earls or even Cave.

It might be time to start moving on. I'm not saying drop BOD, he's a very valuable player indeed. Still a very good player. But I'm not sure he should be Captain anymore or guaranteed to start with 13 on his back.

I find all of this quiet strange.

Sin E obviously has family connections to Kidney and / or O Gara.

No point in feeding it.

Notch wrote:Rory, Sin- I think O'Driscoll is casting a bit too large a shadow now. Once we're having to fly players in with next to no preparation time to accommodate him he's too big for the team.

We shouldn't have picked Wallace. He's been doing some fitness work by himself but no sessions with his teammates or the coaches, no gametime for a number of weeks- disaster waiting to happen. But we did it because we weren't willing to move BOD to accommodate Earls or even Cave.

It might be time to start moving on. I'm not saying drop BOD, he's a very valuable player indeed. Still a very good player. But I'm not sure he should be Captain anymore or guaranteed to start with 13 on his back.

I agree with you Notch, but what coach is going to have the balls to say BOD isn't a guaranteed starter?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
We don't even have an attacking coach though. And yes, I have noticed how angry you and a lot of your fellow scots have been with Robinson, calling for his head. Which is why I am finding this all a tad hypocritical..

I find that comment a tad patronising. Despite Robinson picking the wrong players I never blamed him for players getting themselves binned or Falling off tackles unlike yourself.

You do realise nobody has actually said that though and you are putting words in our mouths?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:Rory, Sin- I think O'Driscoll is casting a bit too large a shadow now. Once we're having to fly players in with next to no preparation time to accommodate him he's too big for the team.

We shouldn't have picked Wallace. He's been doing some fitness work by himself but no sessions with his teammates or the coaches, no gametime for a number of weeks- disaster waiting to happen. But we did it because we weren't willing to move BOD to accommodate Earls or even Cave.

It might be time to start moving on. I'm not saying drop BOD, he's a very valuable player indeed. Still a very good player. But I'm not sure he should be Captain anymore or guaranteed to start with 13 on his back.

I agree with you Notch, but what coach is going to have the balls to say BOD isn't a guaranteed starter?

I have to agree to Notchy and also with you Rory, who would have the swingers to drop BOD. Even if he has become too big for the team in that one respect.
I do like Sin's comment about Paddy Wallace's continued training at home, maybe that's the future. "Stay at home and train away there lads and we'll all see how it comes together on match day. Sure it'll be fine you're all professionals".

Notch wrote:Rory, Sin- I think O'Driscoll is casting a bit too large a shadow now. Once we're having to fly players in with next to no preparation time to accommodate him he's too big for the team.

We shouldn't have picked Wallace. He's been doing some fitness work by himself but no sessions with his teammates or the coaches, no gametime for a number of weeks- disaster waiting to happen. But we did it because we weren't willing to move BOD to accommodate Earls or even Cave.

It might be time to start moving on. I'm not saying drop BOD, he's a very valuable player indeed. Still a very good player. But I'm not sure he should be Captain anymore or guaranteed to start with 13 on his back.

Agreed Notch. Truth is though, when do we get a chance to try new center pairings. Things need time to bed in. Nobody was interested in bedding anything in versus NZ. We just wanted a win / not to get walloped.

I've said before. New Zealand get plenty of match practice against teams ranked below them. Its time we had more games against lower ranked teams in order to develop the team whilst still playing a reasonably high level of rugby.

Some serious contradictions floating around. To have a chance against a team we play BOD because hes still the best. He wont last forever. We jump through hoops trying to get someone to fit alongside him. We play 13s at 12. They give up on the idea after one match. People say its a big step up from club to test rugby. Yet they are expected to perform on one game. But we cant give them more than one game, because we cant afford to play a team weaker than we have available. Players dont get developed on the higher stage. etc etc... and the process continues until said star player retires and then suddenly we expect our team to still be top standard without having developed alternatives over time. Confused? So am I!

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
So, we bring ROG on tour and don't ask him to kick, but we can't bring a better player on tour and ask him not to kick?

eh, ROG could kick if needed. Sexton would probably have had another hissy fit if ROG took over the kicking as well. Anything for a quite life.

WOW WOW WOW, so you mean to tell me that ROG COULD kick if he needed to, but we DOESN'T kick because there's a better kicker on the pitch? Now, where have I heard that before...

But yeah, we all love a quite life.

I think you (like Sexton) over estimate Sexton's ability to place kick. BOD however knows his capabilities (i.e., he wanted to reverse the going for the posts decision that Sexton thought he could make and then he didn't get it).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You do realise nobody has actually said that though and you are putting words in our mouths?

You sure about that one?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He can be blamed for disorganisation in defence though

Can he really? Is he expected to tell seasoned, experienced pro's how to defend their channels? Hosea Gear Flattened Keith Earls and left him in a crumpled heap on his back. Kidney's fault too?

[quote="RuggerRadge2611"]

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You do realise nobody has actually said that though and you are putting words in our mouths?

You sure about that one?

[quote="Rory_Gallagher"]He can be blamed for disorganisation in defence though

Can he really? Is he expected to tell seasoned, experienced pro's how to defend their channels? Hosea Gear Flattened Keith Earls and left him flat on his back. Kidney's fault too?

So, if you use that sentence in context.. I am saying yes he can't be blamed for the missed tackles, but he can be blamed for disorganisation in defence though. It isn't my fault if you can't tell the difference between missed tackles and a disorganised defensive line, or take things I say out of context. Also, there is a reason teams have a defensive coach..

Again, you can't seem to tell the difference between a missed tackle and a disorganised defence. I don't know what you want me to say.

So you are saying that he changed the defencive organisation between the 2nd and third tests?

He had a change in the centre and on the wing. Was the organisation greatly changed? I could understand if it was a new player coming in one who had never played alongside the likes of Sexton, BOD or any other Irish back before but it's 2 very experienced players who shouldn't need to be shown how to tackle or organise themselves.

Kidney has nothing to do with this, if a backline with 269 international test caps between them can't organise themselves defensivley maybe you're players are simply not good enough.

I'm trying to be constructive here and show you that you have played well under Kidney but some just seem out for his blood.

The big differance with us in Scotland is we are struggling to see the positives under Robinson when we had our worst ever world cup, have won 2 out of 15 in the 6N. Compare that to Ireland, best RWC in your history and 6N grand slammers.

Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Radge, what do you think a coach is responsible for out of interest? What is a coach's role?

It depends on what he is brough in to do. Put it another way I was one of the ones wanting Andy Robinson sacked at Scotland, my reasons is because Andy Robinson made absolute howlers.

Dan Parks playing against England.
Nathan Hines at Blind side Flanker
John Barclay at 8
Sean Lamont at 12

to name 4.

Kidney has made some unusual calls as detailed by previous posts.

However the coach always has the final word in selecting the team, but he is advised by the Attacking Coach (in Scotlands case Townsend who was promptly shifted to Glasgow shame on them), the Forwards coach and the defensive coach. They will all have influence in Kidney's decision making. I'm not saying Kidney hasn't made mistakes and I'm positive he will shoulder the bulk of the blame & deservedly so.

But this entire thread seems like a typical Irish Knee jerk reaction. You were playing the best team in the world in their Own country with 4 key players missing, missed over 30 tackles and had to play for 10 minutes without Kearney arguably one of your best players.

Kidney can be blamed for selection but not for proffesional rugby players falling off tackles, letting thir heads go down and being routed.

Some will argue that the coach is responsible for rallying the troops and instilling some pride to go back out and hold the line. That is also the job of the captain BOD who is one of the best. Furthermore if being 29 points down at half time is'nt enough motivation to go out and try and salvage a bit of pride, I don't know what is.

Kidney has made mistakes but the debacle of Saturday can't be all thrown at him. Especially when the same team came so close the Saturday before.

Do you really believe that?We have been calling for change for the last 2 years,this tour is just the latest in a long line of failures under Kidney,I saw your list of his successes with Ireland and the only one I can agree with is the Grand Slam.Ever since then Ireland have been in a downward spiral with an occasional spike upward before the descent starts again.

Thomond wrote:Big you have a bit of a point, it's like GAA players who say winning the Club All-Ireland is more special? Why? You have been palying with a lot of those guys since you were aroudn 6 years old and some of them have been your friends and neighbours for life.

The manager of my hurling club played with Nicky English and got him down to train us for a few sessions,he told us winning the Tipperary Junior Championship with his club meant more to him than the All-Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
So, we bring ROG on tour and don't ask him to kick, but we can't bring a better player on tour and ask him not to kick?

eh, ROG could kick if needed. Sexton would probably have had another hissy fit if ROG took over the kicking as well. Anything for a quite life.

WOW WOW WOW, so you mean to tell me that ROG COULD kick if he needed to, but we DOESN'T kick because there's a better kicker on the pitch? Now, where have I heard that before...

But yeah, we all love a quite life.

I think you (like Sexton) over estimate Sexton's ability to place kick. BOD however knows his capabilities (i.e., he wanted to reverse the going for the posts decision that Sexton thought he could make and then he didn't get it).

so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Thomond wrote:Big you have a bit of a point, it's like GAA players who say winning the Club All-Ireland is more special? Why? You have been palying with a lot of those guys since you were aroudn 6 years old and some of them have been your friends and neighbours for life.

The manager of my hurling club played with Nicky English and got him down to train us for a few sessions,he told us winning the Tipperary Junior Championship with his club meant more to him than the All-Ireland.

Yeah, a fair few players say that and I can see why

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:So you are saying that he changed the defencive organisation between the 2nd and third tests?

He had a change in the centre and on the wing. Was the organisation greatly changed? I could understand if it was a new player coming in one who had never played alongside the likes of Sexton, BOD or any other Irish back before but it's 2 very experienced players who shouldn't need to be shown how to tackle or organise themselves.

Kidney has nothing to do with this, if a backline with 269 international test caps between them can't organise themselves defensivley maybe you're players are simply not good enough.

I'm trying to be constructive here and show you that you have played well under Kidney but some just seem out for his blood.

The big differance with us in Scotland is we are struggling to see the positives under Robinson when we had our worst ever world cup, have won 2 out of 15 in the 6N. Compare that to Ireland, best RWC in your history and 6N grand slammers.

Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!

When?

I honestly think you don't watch Ireland matches if you believe we've been playing well under Kidney,I would never tell you that Scotland are playing as well as possible under Robinson since I haven't seen enough Scotland matches to judge.

How many Ireland matches have you seen in the last 3 years?

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:So you are saying that he changed the defencive organisation between the 2nd and third tests?

He had a change in the centre and on the wing. Was the organisation greatly changed? I could understand if it was a new player coming in one who had never played alongside the likes of Sexton, BOD or any other Irish back before but it's 2 very experienced players who shouldn't need to be shown how to tackle or organise themselves.

Kidney has nothing to do with this, if a backline with 269 international test caps between them can't organise themselves defensivley maybe you're players are simply not good enough.

I'm trying to be constructive here and show you that you have played well under Kidney but some just seem out for his blood.

The big differance with us in Scotland is we are struggling to see the positives under Robinson when we had our worst ever world cup, have won 2 out of 15 in the 6N. Compare that to Ireland, best RWC in your history and 6N grand slammers.

Rory grow up and look at what Kidney has done for your team!

When?

I honestly think you don't watch Ireland matches if you believe we've been playing well under Kidney,I would never tell you that Scotland are playing as well as possible under Robinson since I haven't seen enough Scotland matches to judge.

How many Ireland matches have you seen in the last 3 years?

RWC : Mullered Italy, soundly defeated Australia, Never looked like losing against the USA.

6N 2012 : Really Unlucky against Wales, put 42 points past Italy, Drew with France in Paris, Soundly beat us (Scotland) but you were smashed by England in particular in the Scrum.

Summer Tour : Beaten in the 1st, should have drawn the 2nd and mullered in the third.

I do watch a lot of rugby and I am trying to comment sensibly on this thread if my opinions aren't welcome I'll not post again. Don't question my rugby knowlege and try to make me look stupid. I have an opinion that's differant from yours, that doesn't mean to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Just using recent games as an Example.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

You have to start it against someone. The crowd weren't quite for the kicks (he could pretend he was in the Liberty or Thomond pk)! Also, McFadden was on the wing, also a recognised kicker and ahead of Madigan in the Joe Show Kicking List so the youngster could have played and had McF kick. The options were there.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

What does that mean? How does an outhalf even get a pro contract without having a placekicking career? He's obviously kicked plenty of times with a good % but you can ignore that if you wish...

Next time theres a live team announcement, I'm going to check if Sin e is missing from the boards...

Notch wrote:Rory, Sin- I think O'Driscoll is casting a bit too large a shadow now. Once we're having to fly players in with next to no preparation time to accommodate him he's too big for the team.

We shouldn't have picked Wallace. He's been doing some fitness work by himself but no sessions with his teammates or the coaches, no gametime for a number of weeks- disaster waiting to happen. But we did it because we weren't willing to move BOD to accommodate Earls or even Cave.

It might be time to start moving on. I'm not saying drop BOD, he's a very valuable player indeed. Still a very good player. But I'm not sure he should be Captain anymore or guaranteed to start with 13 on his back.

I don't think he was being too big for the team. If you look at the first 2 tests, the team's best performance was when BOD was at 13. In hindsight, he had a very poor game (he was trying mad stuff at times) and inevitably when BOD has a bad game for Ireland, Ireland play badly.

By the way, he said he was working with some of the Ulster staff and before he went to Portugal, it was 3 weeks since he had a game. Earls hadn't played in 2 weeks and had been injured. At least Paddy wasn't injured in that time.

I don't think he would be adverse to the move (probably still keep No. 13 on his back), but maybe Cave is not a Test Class 13 (particularly against a team like NZ)?

Earls was tried there, so its not like he is adverse to the idea in the first place.

The real issue is though we don't have any Test standard 12s after D'Arcy.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RWC : Mullered Italy, soundly defeated Australia, Never looked like losing against the USA.

6N 2012 : Really Unlucky against Wales, put 42 points past Italy, Drew with France in Paris, Soundly beat us (Scotland) but you were smashed by England in particular in the Scrum.

Summer Tour : Beaten in the 1st, should have drawn the 2nd and mullered in the third.

I do watch a lot of rugby and I am trying to comment sensibly on this thread if my opinions aren't welcome I'll not post again. Don't question my rugby knowlege and try to make me look stupid. I have an opinion that's differant from yours, that doesn't mean to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Just using recent games as an Example.

I'm not trying to make you look stupid,I genuinely wanted to know had you watched Ireland play because what you're describing doesn't match up with what I saw.

RWC:
RWC : Mullered Italy yes fantastic, soundly defeated Australia yes great stuff , Never looked like losing against the USA,still played like drains and what about the Welsh game where we were rubbish and Kidney was completely flummoxed by the sensational tactic of Shane Williams swapping wings.

6N 2012 : Really Unlucky against Wales,no were really bad against Wales just because the scoreline was close that doesn't mean the performance was acceptable, put 42 points past Italy again great played awful for 50 minutes before Italy rolled over, Drew with France in Paris when the win was there for the taking but again no performance, Soundly beat Scotland but you were smashed by England in particular in the Scrum.

Summer Tour : Beaten in the 1st, should have drawn the 2nd and mullered in the third.

A coach is only as good as his players. Look at steve hansen. As coach of wales, his win loss record was terrible but this was because he was working with sub standard players. Ireland do not currently have the quality to compete with the top 6/7 nations in the world on a consistent basis and a change of coach will not change that. They do however have some good players in the under 20 set up. A coach is therefore required who is brave enough to blood these youngsters. Jake white would ideal For this very reason. He has unearthed some gems for the brumbies and could do the same for ireland and give them a chance in the next world cup.

Maybe when you are detatched from the passion of watching your national side play you can see the brighter side. When people were telling me that Scotland were playing well but still not winning I didn't want to hear it.

Fact is Kidney led you to your 1st 6N win in what 40 years? Took you the furthest you have ever gone in a RWC where you were beaten by Wales who were simply better.......

It's not all doom and gloom and with the likes of Healy, Cronin, Sexton, Murray, Bowe, Earls, SOB, Ferris all still relativly young you have the foundation of a very good side.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

What does that mean? How does an outhalf even get a pro contract without having a placekicking career? He's obviously kicked plenty of times with a good % but you can ignore that if you wish...

Not at international level.
Finish the sentence : .... I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. [i]

Sometimes coaches take away the kicking duties to take pressure off their developing OHs.

Fact is Kidney led you to your 1st 6N win in what 40 years?

Na radge he happened to have just stepped into the post when the players won our first GS in 61 years

That doesn't make any sense. What's a "place kicking career"?

Is it the part of a players career where he starts to placekick? Well we've established that A) he can kick B) he has kicked and C) on this tour, he wouldn't need to have kicked.
.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:
so ROG was on the feild just in case Sexton had a kicking nightmare? He (ROG) didn't kick, because he didn't need to kick because there was a better kicker on the field. There's no good reason whatsoever to leave Madigan at home because he "Can't be trusted to take placed kicks" if the player you take instead of him doesn't take them either.

Nope. He was there on tour as outhalf cover. If Sexton got injured in the first test, would you have been happy about Madigan starting the placekicking part of his career against NZ?

I think Madigan will be a fine player, but I don't think its in his interests to start his place kicking career at international level. Hopefully next season, he will get a chance with Leinster.

You have to start it against someone. The crowd weren't quite for the kicks (he could pretend he was in the Liberty or Thomond pk)! Also, McFadden was on the wing, also a recognised kicker and ahead of Madigan in the Joe Show Kicking List so the youngster could have played and had McF kick. The options were there.

Nothing got to do with how noisy the crowd is. The silence seems to be more of a problem for kickers.
And relying on McFadden meant that he was going to have to be on the pitch at the same time and he would not be a nailed on starter and while he tries hard, I don't think he is an international class winger.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Maybe when you are detatched from the passion of watching your national side play you can see the brighter side. When people were telling me that Scotland were playing well but still not winning I didn't want to hear it.

Fact is Kidney led you to your 1st 6N win in what 40 years? Took you the furthest you have ever gone in a RWC where you were beaten by Wales who were simply better.......

It's not all doom and gloom and with the likes of Healy, Cronin, Sexton, Murray, Bowe, Earls, SOB, Ferris all still relativly young you have the foundation of a very good side.

The 6 Nations was a long time ago,he has long since lost the goodwill he gained from it because of the abject failure since then.

We have made plenty of RWC quarter finals,that was an acceptable WC nothing more and while Wales were the better team the beating we took was again unacceptable.We saw in the 6 Nations that kicking the ball to the Welsh was a bad tactic yet Ireland kept doing this instead of going for the corners and competing in the lineout which is an area of real weakness for Wales.When you see the same mistakes in the gameplan over and over again there can be only 2 conclusions.The management want this rubbish gameplan or they don't want it but aren't doing anything to get the players to change.Either way it's not good enough.

Pete330v2 wrote:Fact is Kidney led you to your 1st 6N win in what 40 years?

Na radge he happened to have just stepped into the post when the players won our first GS in 61 years

And has just had to retire the majority of that team.

Only two starting survivors of that team on Saturday - BOD & Kearney.

The team of '09 (in the form they were in then) would destroy the team that started for Ireland on Saturday.

Mickado wrote:That doesn't make any sense. What's a "place kicking career"?

Is it the part of a players career where he starts to placekick? Well we've established that A) he can kick B) he has kicked and C) on this tour, he wouldn't need to have kicked.
.

I'll explain it like this - was everyone not heaving a sigh of relief when Sexton made those kicks in his first few games in the HCup when Conters got injured?

And c) would mean that McFadden would have had to start somewhere.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Fact is Kidney led you to your 1st 6N win in what 40 years?

Na radge he happened to have just stepped into the post when the players won our first GS in 61 years

And has just had to retire the majority of that team.

Only two starting survivors of that team on Saturday - BOD & Kearney.

The team of '09 (in the form they were in then) would destroy the team that started for Ireland on Saturday.

Only if the rules were changed back to suit the defending team.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:That doesn't make any sense. What's a "place kicking career"?

Is it the part of a players career where he starts to placekick? Well we've established that A) he can kick B) he has kicked and C) on this tour, he wouldn't need to have kicked.
.

I'll explain it like this - was everyone not heaving a sigh of relief when Sexton made those kicks in his first few games in the HCup when Conters got injured?

And c) would mean that McFadden would have had to start somewhere.

Yes, 3 years ago i was sighing with relief, but 3 HC's later, I'm a bit more confident.