Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

Well you've already answered one with the speed of the game, players have much less time to think act, and are under far greater pressure.

Physicality is increased massively (yes even from the HEC).

Margin for error is also a great deal smaller at international level which again equates into the pressure on a player/team.

It's a big difference both to the physical and mental approach to a match, much more so than playing for a club/region/province.

and those comparing the HEC with internationals - they've been mainly Irish ones, no? (am happy to be wrong here but I can only remember Irish players saying this. I know the likes of McCaw feel like internationals are big step up from the super XV)

All of that completely depends on the team you are playing though. Ireland don't play with pace, nor do England, nor do Scotland and South Africa are transitioning into that sort of game. Wales play with pace, as do Australia, as do the All Blacks. That has to do with the team, not the international/club tag. Why would the physicality be massively increased? Do the players have a growth spurt when they play for their countries? Again, that depends who you are playing against. There is a reason people say the most physical games are against the Pacific Islanders (I have heard Muller and Pienaar say this in person).

The only thing that would support your argument to me, is that the players feel more passionate playing for their country than they do for their club. The welsh seem to fit into this category. If it was such a massive step up, why would some of the welsh players play so much better for their country? At club level, many of them do not look half as good. I think it is because they feel more passion in the red shirt.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Will you even be looking forward to any more Ireland games Notch, with the current setup?

If you're not looking forward to test matches, feic off and take up gardening at the weekend or something. The question is will I pay to see them. Probably not. My experience of test match rugby over the last few years is it always feels a much longer journey on the way home than it does going there; win or lose, there's little genuine pride and passion in the stands or on the pitch. At least if you're watching on TV you aren't spending much time or money. That time and money can be better spent following your province. When the despair of the final whistle comes you can just change the channel. But I'll always be watching during the game, hoping beyond hope... bring on the Autumn Series, thats all I can say.

Dreamer, you have some good points there. I think the main focus for the IRFU has been getting Ulster back up to scratch with providing Irish players and then Connacht will follow. Up until about five years ago we were basically operating on the basis of two sides, not three. Ulster only contributed two or three players and maybe just one would start. Now we would contribute between five and eight to a full strength squad of 30. So I maybe see it taking a few more years to develop Connacht. Munster/Leinster are definitely holding them back though- we've seen them harvest their finest players to use in the Pro12 as mere cover for their internationals.

It's hard to develop players if they are in a sides second string. We have too much talent wasting away in the second strings of sides; it took Donnacha Ryan about 4 or 5 years more than it should have to breakthrough at Munster when Ulster, Leinster and Connacht had no quality at all in the second rows. Hagan, a promising tighthead, has moved to Leinster for less gametime when he was starting every match for Connacht. Fergus McFadden has just started three consecutive tests but hasn't made the breakthrough into the Leinster first team yet. I can see the likes of Nevin Spence and Adam Macklin joining this list.

rugbydreamer wrote:and those comparing the HEC with internationals - they've been mainly Irish ones, no? (am happy to be wrong here but I can only remember Irish players saying this. I know the likes of McCaw feel like internationals are big step up from the super XV)

Nope, I am referring to french players actually. I haven't heard from any irish guys.

rugbydreamer wrote:and those comparing the HEC with internationals - they've been mainly Irish ones, no? (am happy to be wrong here but I can only remember Irish players saying this. I know the likes of McCaw feel like internationals are big step up from the super XV)

Alright, but the intensity of a game between Ireland and Italy and Ireland and New Zealand is way different. I think the quality of international rugby is very variable! As is the intensity. There's no hard and fast rule.

Certainly many games in the Six Nations would definitely be behind the Heineken Cup in terms of quality and sometimes intensity. Whereas if you look at games between the three big SANZAR nations, it's a different league to the HEC.

Notch wrote:


If you're not looking forward to test matches, feic off and take up gardening at the weekend or something. The question is will I pay to see them. Probably not. My experience of test match rugby over the last few years is it always feels a much longer journey on the way home than it does going there; win or lose, there's little genuine pride and passion in the stands or on the pitch. At least if you're watching on TV you aren't spending much time or money. That time and money can be better spent following your province. When the despair of the final whistle comes you can just change the channel. But I'll always be watching during the game, hoping beyond hope... bring on the Autumn Series, thats all I can say.

Dreamer, you have some good points there. I think the main focus for the IRFU has been getting Ulster back up to scratch with providing Irish players and then Connacht will follow. Up until about five years ago we were basically operating on the basis of two sides, not three. Ulster only contributed two or three players and maybe just one would start. Now we would contribute between five and eight to a full strength squad of 30. So I maybe see it taking a few more years to develop Connacht. Munster/Leinster are definitely holding them back though- we've seen them harvest their finest players to use in the Pro12 as mere cover for their internationals.

It's hard to develop players if they are in a sides second string. We have too much talent wasting away in the second strings of sides; it took Donnacha Ryan about 4 or 5 years more than it should have to breakthrough at Munster when Ulster, Leinster and Connacht had no quality at all in the second rows. Hagan, a promising tighthead, has moved to Leinster for less gametime when he was starting every match for Connacht. Fergus McFadden has just started three consecutive tests but hasn't made the breakthrough into the Leinster first team yet. I can see the likes of Nevin Spence and Adam Macklin joining this list.

A bit harsh. Well, going by your own thread about the future of irish rugby, you sound pretty dejected. Like most of us on here, and like the players themselves. Hence why I asked if you are even going to be looking forward to seeing the same rubbish produced. I don't think we can improve with things as they are, and will struggle to get excited about watching the same performances.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:All of that completely depends on the team you are playing though. Ireland don't play with pace, nor do England, nor do Scotland and South Africa are transitioning into that sort of game. Wales play with pace, as do Australia, as do the All Blacks. That has to do with the team, not the international/club tag. Why would the physicality be massively increased? Do the players have a growth spurt when they play for their countries? Again, that depends who you are playing against. There is a reason people say the most physical games are against the Pacific Islanders (I have heard Muller and Pienaar say this in person).

The only thing that would support your argument to me, is that the players feel more passionate playing for their country than they do for their club. The welsh seem to fit into this category. If it was such a massive step up, why would some of the welsh players play so much better for their country? At club level, many of them do not look half as good. I think it is because they feel more passion in the red shirt.

Physicality isn't always about size Rory, it's about commitment and aggression. To be successful at international level consistently you have to provide this in bucket loads, far more that at provincial/club/regional level. The margins are that much smaller and the effort needed that much more.

The regions in Wales are pretty poorly run, with average coaching. It isn't a surprise that the players don't play as well there. The set up for Team Wales is ultra professional and designed as such to bring the best out of the players. I would say this is another area Team Ireland need to look at.

Passion will have a great deal to do with it, it links back in with commitment and aggression. Although it's a serious problem if Irish players don't feel as passionate for Ireland as they do for their province. I don't know how you'd go about fixing that.

I'm not trying to sound dejected or to be negative- or to be upbeat and positive. I'm just trying to give as realistic an appraisal of the situation as I can without emotion getting in the way.

If I sound dejected, well, the facts speak for themselves about the trend the Irish national team is following.

Notch wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:and those comparing the HEC with internationals - they've been mainly Irish ones, no? (am happy to be wrong here but I can only remember Irish players saying this. I know the likes of McCaw feel like internationals are big step up from the super XV)

Alright, but the intensity of a game between Ireland and Italy and Ireland and New Zealand is way different. I think the quality of international rugby is very variable! As is the intensity. There's no hard and fast rule.

Certainly many games in the Six Nations would definitely be behind the Heineken Cup in terms of quality and sometimes intensity. Whereas if you look at games between the three big SANZAR nations, it's a different league to the HEC.

yes but look at what happens in Ireland v Italy matches when Ireland don't up the intensity? (see the away game in 2011).

And I disagree with you on intensity between the 6N's and the HEC for intensity. Certainly Wales always play with much more intensity in the 6N's then any of the regions do in the HEC. I honestly think some of you guys are setting too much by the HEC. It's a mighty difficult competition to win, but I don't think it bares much reflection of how the players competing in it will then go on to perform in internationals. It's just an entirely different level and platform.

Yes, but again, many people say that the most physical games they play are against the PI. Those games are just brutal in terms of physicality. Even if Fiji etc lack the skill at the top level. However, the most exhausting games where you cannot afford to make one mistake are the ones against the best teams. The likes of NZ, who will not let you get away with anything, and they will capitalise on it. There are club teams like that too though. The Ospreys did exactly that when they beat Leinster, just as Leinster have done it all season.

Doesn't that sound like deja vu though about the regions? The regions are run pretty poorly with average coaching.. do you know another team like that right now?

I don't think you can afford to go into any international and make mistakes. Wales have come a cropper from this in the past countless of times (mainly against the PI teams). We've learnt our lessons the hard way. Maybe Ireland need to do the same

On the step up between international and provincial rugby, I really don't see that there is a massive step in many respects. To be truthful I am not entirely convinced that physicality is the key unless it is against South Africa. The quality of rugby in the northern hemisphere is better in the knock off stages and many pool matches in the Heineken Cup than the Six Nations. The difference are to my mind at least, mental pressures and margin of error. I think too many Irish players believe there is a big step up. This is hard to quantify of course, but they look like a team of players weighed down by the weight of the shirt. You look at some of the offloading that Leinster play and the same players in a green shirt don't even try it in case they get it wrong because at international level you get punished ruthlessly for your mistakes. Irish rugby on the international stage is driven by short termism and too often we go out to not loss rather than trying to win. There is a huge difference in those approaches. Just look at Robbie Deans. He basically took over and decided to develop a team for the World Cup and bugger to the first two seasons of his tenureship. I can't foresee an IRFU that would conceive of that sort of thought process.

Also on your comments on the Irish provinces I think they have a lot of merit. On the foreign imports I'm not sure I wholly agree. I'm an Ulster fan and I don't think we could do with Pienaar. He is our key player and best player. But if you look through the squad I think our top performers this season were Best, Henry and Cave. The difference Henry made to our backrow was a plain as day to me watching us in the semi final without him and the final where he was half fit. His work allows Ferris to excel. Henry might not be fancy, he might not do the flashy stuff, but thats what we need. Leinster could do without Nacewa. A great player for sure, and if you took him out they might be less potent, but they could do without him. We couldn't do without Pienaar.

I also think people are right on the age factor. George North, Cuthbert, Lydiate and Warburton would have a handful of caps between them if they were Irish. I really wonder what a Robbie Deans Irish side would look like now if he had have taken over four years ago. I would think vastly different. If Kidney was Australian coach someone like Mortlock would probably still be in gold.

I am hugely dejected about this Irish side. I turned off the match at the weekend and that was the first time I ever voluntarily did that for an Irish match. I am certainly not looking forward to watching them again in the new season, and if Kidney is still in charge I won't be spending one penny on a ticket to watch them. But I'm not one of these guys that says 'I'll never watch them again while he's in charge'. i know I will watch the matches on television, just minus the usual excitement, hype and expectation. Just a sense of forboding. That to me is just a sad way to feel about any team you support in any sport. That is what Kidney has done to Ireland in my eyes.

In the Pro 12 in the past two years (and the HEC two seasons ago), Leinster couldn't have done without Nacewa, he's Leinster's most dangerous player. Just my opinion

The age thing is a funny one. It's always a gamble. With Wales for instance we capped Prydie who since injury has been back playing for the U20's (and doing v well) and not had a look in at the O's or at full international level with Wales. We capped North and he's had a stormer and had two great seasons of full international rugby (despite still being eligible to play for the U20's!)

The work here will have to start with the provinces so that they make sure that the players get the right exposure which means they are capable of making the step up. Squad development and man management - it's a fine line but something I think Ireland need to look at more

rugbydreamer wrote:nd I disagree with you on intensity between the 6N's and the HEC for intensity. Certainly Wales always play with much more intensity in the 6N's then any of the regions do in the HEC. I honestly think some of you guys are setting too much by the HEC. It's a mighty difficult competition to win, but I don't think it bares much reflection of how the players competing in it will then go on to perform in internationals. It's just an entirely different level and platform.

I think you're overrating the Six Nations tbh. It's not a great tournament, it has some cracking games every year and at least two or three cringe-worthily awful games. In my opinion some of the games in that tournament are very poor, worlds away from what the Southern Hemisphere offers. By and large it's still better than the HEC, but that Ireland vs Italy game you mention in 2011? Miles behind most knockout games in the HEC this year in terms of quality. Unforced errors like both sides produced for 80 minutes would be ruthlessly punished in the Heineken Cup, you would be out. Instead we limped out with a pretty hollow feeling win.

Pretty much all of the Wales game in the past few years has been higher in intensity than the HEC, but you're ignoring a lot of god-awful games involving other nations here. They would be ahead of most HEC games still. But when you get to the pointy end of the HEC the difference between that and the bottom of the 6N is marginal, the HEC may even be slightly better. The best of the Six Nations is marginally better than that and the Southern Hemisphere is a different league.

The Heineken Cup could in theory provide a launchpad for Ireland to succeed internationally, but it doesn't at all. Thats because the styles of rugby the provinces play have nothing in common with the way the coaches want Ireland to play. If we all played to a similar blueprint in the Heineken Cup that went through all the provinces right up to the national side it might do that. But as it is success in the Heineken Cup has nothing to do with test level.

Exactly Notch but that's my point - Ireland didn't play with the right level of intensity needed in that Italy match - and it showed.

Wales play with intensity at international and have been successful in the 6N's - the times we haven't we've lost. These god awful games you describe - is it because the right mind set and intensity wasn't applied?

Don't get me wrong I think the HEC is fantastic but in terms of pressure and mental application it just can't compare to international level for me. Maybe that's just a Welsh mindset I dunno, but it seems to be to be something wrong with how Irish players approach a HEC match that differs with how they approach an international match, and I don't think that has everything to do with the game plan or style being played.

And I agree with your last sentence Notch

These god awful games you describe - is it because the right mind set and intensity wasn't applied?

Absolutely. When its half the teams in the tournament falling short of that, thats why the gulf between the Six Nations and HEC isn't as big as it should be by rights.

no but doesn't that just prove my point about the step up in intensity that is needed? Are players underestimating it?


It's an interesting one.

With Ireland, you've proven you can play at the required intensity, you just need to do it more consistently. And figure out a better way to get your younger players through and exposed to higher levels of rugby so as and when needed they can step up without there being such a gulf in class. That and a change to your coaching team (even if Kidney stays I agree with you Notch taht you guys really really need a proper backs coach) and I think you'll be okay

One time the Heineken Cup has helped Ireland is when Munster were dominating. Thats because the entire first choice Ireland tight five was the exact same as Munsters, as were the halfbacks. Those units being so well established and gelled together was invaluable, it gave us an advantage in the 6N no-one else had.

But Leinster are just too different to Kidney's Ireland for us to use the Heineken Cup as a springboard and I'm surprised this isn't more recognition of that.

I think copying a provincial/regional's team style of play only works if it's based on the forwards. It's what Wales did in '08 with using the O's pack (and what we should have bloody done on this tour down under!)

Ireland needs to forget the provinces and come up with it's own game plan. I've had this discussion with Stag before. it always seems to be that with Ireland they pick the best provincial players and not necessarily the best players for the team.

It's a bit like "oh quick let's give it to POC and let him do what he does for Munster" then "no wait let the Leinster lads give it a go" and then "oh quick, there's best and Ferris, let them do what they do for Ulster". For me anyway there's absolutely no cohesion. I don't know whether that's down to the management not setting out a clear enough plan (which would seem mightily strange to me) or the players just aren't able/won't adapt to it. I honestly don't know. I could also be talking a pile of dung

Irish teams approach or treat Heineken matches like internationals, and consequently, approach internationals like Heineken matches with less continuity and familiarity with their team-mates. At test level, they get the odd result like England, Australia and a 'nearly' against NZ. The rest of the time, it's mediocre and plodding.

You begin to wonder if a few losses and early exists in the H Cup might not do wonders for the test team.

A new coach won't help unless they're willing to say, 'ok bod, poc et al......time to let go' there are some good kids out there playing, start again ith them.....the 'old school' brood are done. completely done and dusted.......loyalty's one thing but a 60-0 drubbing is something else.

Rob Kearneys take on things:

Kearney, though, felt the hosts' guile and handling skills were the key factor.

"They all offload in the tackle and that is the strength of their game," said Kearney. "I think that was our biggest weakness, as a team, that we didn't stop their offloads.

"We know that against New Zealand you have to stop the offloads. We didn't do it tonight and they got a lot of tries from it."

The Irish backline were also overpowered by that of the All Blacks, though, with the point emphatically emphasised on 49 minutes when winger Hosea Gear outpaced Fergus McFadden down the left and paused to pole-axe Keith Earls before dragging the trailing McFadden over the tryline.

When asked what the main differences was between the two sides, Kearney responded, "It is the speed they play at, the intensity that they play at and sheer size as well.

"They are bigger than us. That is something we need to address as well. Are we built differently? I don't know."

I would deduce from those comments that there is certainly a gap in physicality between the sides and that the pace and intensity at which the ABs play is a fair bit beyond what we are used to in the NH, includng the HEC.

The provincial success is certainly something that shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevent but at the same time it isn't a guarantee for success at international level. It is a positive though because it shows we have players who can perform at a high level and win trophies under pressure.

It's clear though from the past 2 seasons that we've fallen off from the very top sides and our players need to improve in terms of their physicality, mental strength and basic skill levels if we are to get back up there with the best sides.

With a dominant pack and able to control the pace of the game our backs our comfortable enough in attack and defence but once the ABs got the platform from their pack in the 3rd test we simply couldn't live with their pace, power and skill.

Up front our forwards have faired much better but as we saw in the RWC and 6N they simply aren't capable, physically or mentally to front up, and perhaps punch above their collective weight for 3 weeks in succession and once we lose that platform then we don't have the backs anymore capable of creating anything with out a forward platform.

I think we need to see more strategic rotation in the pack to keep the intensity up but I also think our managment really need to take the approach Gatland did with Wales.

He felt they weren't physical or tough enough so he put them on brutal training programmes to improve their fitness and also made them play really tough AI and summer fixtures to get them used to the intensity of playing the SH on a regular basis.

Wales lost a lot of games during that period from Summer 2008 to summer 2011, and took a real physical pounding but they're reaped the rewards for all the suffering in the past 12 months.

No....Wales are still getting beaten...........still! They're a good side but still losing. As are england really. Size, gentetics etc.....rubbish. It comes down to mentality. I've said all year that sticking with the old school is detrimental, its time to start looking forwards, a 60-0 slaughter was a disatster for the nh......people on here's lions xv might be changing a tad now. physically they're all tough. Mentally there's a few new kids on the block who have it. confidence. who would pick bod over tuilagi now?

We weren't in the 6N's, ultra, which rodders also mentioned

Ha....until wales realise they're not a flair side and can be a SA v2, until ireland forget the golden generation nonsense, until england lose the ra ra tag and tap into the working class potential that's out there, until scotland start to believe they're not that bad.....until then it's our fault. We can and should be beating these poncy fancy boys from down there, unitl we address the above, it aint gonna happen!

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:On the step up between international and provincial rugby, I really don't see that there is a massive step in many respects.

So the step up from Leinster to playing a test match against the All Blacks is not a massive step up? Honestly?

Youre talking about club rugby which basically features no players involved from the top 3 countries other than a handful of retirees or money seekers?

I think a reality check is needed buddy...honestly.

It's not rubbish Ultra, physically and mentally we aren't the the level we need to be. Yes we we can raise our intensity for one off games, but consistantly we aren't able to sustain that... that is mental... and physical.

The HEC doesn't require players to back up big perfomances, you play 2 rounds and then a break and then one off big games in the KO stages. The 6N has a break midway.

Wales are not the finished article but they narrowly lost 3 games, the won a GS and finished 4th in the RWC. They are in a better place than us right now, as are England.

This tour was a step up and we fell way short.

Yep....but not due to gentetics or bicep size. Due to hanging on to a lost golden generation.......There are irish players out there that need to be let loose. play to your strengths now, a great back row, an exciting back three, let the ball go from side to side......you're no longer a tight 5 side. adapt and adjust, get rid of the old wood and rebuild.....i was almost as dissapointed as any irishman yesterday, but not as surprised.

Taylorman wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:On the step up between international and provincial rugby, I really don't see that there is a massive step in many respects.

So the step up from Leinster to playing a test match against the All Blacks is not a massive step up? Honestly?

Youre talking about club rugby which basically features no players involved from the top 3 countries other than a handful of retirees or money seekers?

I think a reality check is needed buddy...honestly.

Again though, what you are saying is the difference in quality of the teams. The 6 nations is also a HUGE drop in quality compared to the tri-nations. Why? Because as you just said, no players involved from the top 3 countries are playing. Leinster would not have played a team as good, and as fast paced as the All Blacks. However, I think Leinster would do better than the current Ireland setup against the All Blacks. They play to their strengths, and they rely on a quick game themselves.

Also, physicality is all well and good, but if you take the ball static it won't mean a thing. I don't think NZ have the biggest guys in the world, but they are very powerful runners. They take the ball at pace. Too often these days we see O'Brien, Healy, Tuohy or whoever taking the ball static. They just get knocked back each time. It is so slow and so ineffective. The ABs wouldn't look powerful at all if they didn't play with pace. It is an essential component to their game.

We don't need lumps, we need pace to our game and some very good strike runners who can hit the line at pace.

How do you think Ireland will generate pace if their forwards don't get quick ball Rory? And what do you think they need to improve in order to get quick ball?

I agree in principal ultra but I think that the 'golden generation' and aging side thing is a bit of a red herring.

O'Driscoll, O'Connell and Mike Ross are all the best players in their positions in Ireland. Arguably this tour has shown Gordon D'arcy is too.

If there were errors in selection for me it was selecting McFadden on the right wing against Gear and bringing in a rusty Paddy Wallace against SBW. A blind man could see that was asking for trouble.... our smallest back against their biggest and our worst defender against their most powerful runner. Madness.... and it hilights the tactical naievity of our coaches.

O'Gara, who I would have left of the tour actually played well when he came on.

There are some young guys snapping at the heels but I don't think the age profile of the side is the biggest problem.

That said the balance of the 3/4 line is a huge issue. With Bowe out there is very little strike threat.

O'Connell and Ferris will add huge physicality and steel to the pack although Touhy and McLaughlin have shown they are very able deputies and add depth.

Murray and O'Mahoney are still work in progress and have plenty of potential so I'm not too concerned about their shortcomings on this tour.

Fitzpatrick needs to be groomed as Ross understudy at TH.

Its not all doom and gloom but as a squad and country this tour has been another huge reality check for our players.

IMO our forwards have actually not been the problem with regards to speed at the breakdown/speed of service. They have done rather well in that area this tour, and the breakdown (in the first two tests) was an area of strength for us. Yet we still lacked pace.

I'll break this down into a few key things:

1) Our forwards should not be solely responsible for putting us on the front foot - this is a key area IMO we are lacking. Every team has a strike runner at midfield or on the wing. Wales have basically all their big powerful carriers in the back line. NZ have Williams, Gear, Savea etc. As a welsh fan you will have seen the sheer power exhibited by McCabe and Horne, and the excellent lines they run. One of the biggest things Ireland lack right now is power and pace in our back line.

2) When we do get quick ball, the service is still very slow - Like I said, I have actually been very happy with our pack this series. In the first two tests they dominated at the breakdown, surprisingly. They were able to secure and recycle quick ball without conceding turnovers. Despite this, Murray is still very slow in getting the ball out. When it does get out to the backs, we simply cannot build the phases. Everything immediately slows down, and the defences are right on us.

Basically, if you can hit the line and gain a few metres, then you can start building the phases. Build a bit of momentum. Obviously this requires pace to work. Attacker hits the line, support clear out and secure, 9 immediately ships the ball. The process continues until space can be created. If take your precious time at the breakdown, you just reset everything, you won't go anywhere. That is exactly what Ireland are doing right now. Pretty much every time. No space is created, and there is no continuity or momentum.

Our forwards are doing well for the most part at the breakdown and creating a platform, but we aren't doing anything with it. I don't think our forwards are the problem at all.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:We don't need lumps, we need pace to our game and some very good strike runners who can hit the line at pace.

No we don't need lumps but we need forwards who can compete physically over 3 tests and not 1 and half. We were hammered up front in the 3rd test. Our ball carriers were blasted backwards, we fell off tackles and couldn't compete at the breakdown at all. The ABs upped their level from the 1st two tests and we just fell away.

We need more potency in the backs but we need the platform from our pack too and over a consistant period we don't get that.

When our pack don't get the upper hand the lack of potency in the backs becomes exasperrated and we end up shovelling the ball across the field and getting turned over.

In the second test our pack dominated and provided the platform for Sexton/Rog to attack the gainline and we looked much more potent.

As you've said Ireland don't have big players in the backs to get the go forward, therefore you need your forwards to do this. It isn't just about winning the breakdown battle, they need to break the gain line too and carry the ball, and for me, they just aren't doing that enough or consistently to generate enough go forward for Ireland.

The Welsh forwards don't either but then we're fortunate to have the likes of Roberts and North who can do it for us.

Agree with all of that Rory but the fact that our pack was demolished against NZ on Saturday and against England in the 6N can't be dismissed either. We aren't able to get that edge against Wales anymore either.

The pack isn't the main problem but the physicality difference between us and the top 4 sides is still an issue.

I do think there are a few question marks over general fitness rodders, for the missed tackles etc. Some of our players did look flustered at times. I think our forwards can compete physically, but like I said everything is static and they are getting no help from our back line to put us on the front foot. NZ don't focus on playing the game in the tight exchanges, they try to keep the game flowing, and hit the line at pace. We do the opposite, and if we are going to do that, we might as well start bringing in lumps.

Best, O'Brien, Ryan, Heaslip and Healy all had some very good games on this tour. That is half of our pack.

rugbydreamer wrote:As you've said Ireland don't have big players in the backs to get the go forward, therefore you need your forwards to do this. It isn't just about winning the breakdown battle, they need to break the gain line too and carry the ball, and for me, they just aren't doing that enough or consistently to generate enough go forward for Ireland.

The Welsh forwards don't either but then we're fortunate to have the likes of Roberts and North who can do it for us.

Exactly, but we need to start bringing through some physical options in the backs. We do have some guys who can provide that for the provinces, in fact we had Trimble on Saturday but didn't use him. We need to start using some strike runners in the midfield. The first guy we need for this is Gilroy, the sooner we get him in the team the better. He can punch some holes. Bowe is a good option too when he returns. He knows how to run a good line, I'm sure we can all agree.

Like I said, the NZ pack will take the ball at pace, and the momentum builds gradually until they score basically. On the other hand, our forwards stand as first receiver, wait for Murray to take 10 seconds getting the ball out, and as soon as they get the ball the defence is at our throat. The best 8 in the world, Kieran Read, is so good because of his pace and power (as well as his incredible work rate of course). He is 105kg, the same size as North. He isn't a monster in terms of size (for an 8) but he knows how to hit the line at pace and break the line. If you take pace out of his game, he isn't half as effective. That applies for many of the most powerful carriers in the world. Including O'Brien for us who just gets no chances these days. Someone we need to use more (though he is essential in the tight exchanges right now).

The problem is when we focus on carrying, the RWC against you guys springs to mind. Our pack are expected to do everything atm it seems. When they win the breakdown battle, they aren't carrying enough. If they are carrying, we lose the breakdown battle. I think we need to get some balance into the side ASAP. It is all very disorganised and disjointed.

I think we can compete physically Rory and even dominate teams at times, but not over a run of games.

I'm not advocating bringing in lumps, although the 3/4 line balance needs addressed and size is one factor.

What I'm saying is that the strength and conditioning of our players needs to be looked at as, like against Wales, we were found wanting physically and mentally over the 3 games on this tour.

That's not to dismiss the other issues you've mentioned.

No I agree with you mate. I just think everything is so static that we will always be physically dominated, because we don't have the giants to play that sort of game. Our strength, is playing at pace. I think that is the key difference, and that is why we lack physicality. If that makes any sense. A big guy running at full pace is a lot harder to stop than a big guy taking the ball and standing there.

Your problem against Wales both in the world cup and in the 6N's is that you completely forgot your offloading game. All Wales had to do was chop your forwards at the ankles and that was it, momentum over. I don't think I ever saw you put in a string of offloads, I couldn't believe it! I was sure in the 6N's you'd have added that facet of play but you didn't you guys played just the same way. So I think if you guys don't have the bigger players to bring in (I really don't rate Trimble sorry, but I'll concede Bowe is v good) then maybe focusing more on skill levels could help.

A couple of sneaky offloads is a brilliant way to get over the gain line. It's simple and something Wales used to do so well, I think we've gone too far in the opposite direction now though.

Ireland don't have a whole lot wrong going for them really, it's only small things they need to work on. I would honestly say the mental side to your play is a bigger issue then what physically your players can bring.

Rodders - agree with you on conditioning, the likes of Heaslip just don't look as trim and as fit as seasoned internationals should imo.

rugbydreamer wrote:Your problem against Wales both in the world cup and in the 6N's is that you completely forgot your offloading game. All Wales had to do was chop your forwards at the ankles and that was it, momentum over. I don't think I ever saw you put in a string of offloads, I couldn't believe it! I was sure in the 6N's you'd have added that facet of play but you didn't you guys played just the same way. So I think if you guys don't have the bigger players to bring in (I really don't rate Trimble sorry, but I'll concede Bowe is v good) then maybe focusing more on skill levels could help.

A couple of sneaky offloads is a brilliant way to get over the gain line. It's simple and something Wales used to do so well, I think we've gone too far in the opposite direction now though.

Ireland don't have a whole lot wrong going for them really, it's only small things they need to work on. I would honestly say the mental side to your play is a bigger issue then what physically your players can bring.

An offloading game is only effective if the team has good support play. I don't think we have that right now. I think you made the point earlier that we need to play the "irish way" and not focus on the provinces. I agree with that, what Ireland really need to do, is build a team. Build that excellent support play that is demonstrated by the top teams. Build some strong combinations that work, add some real balance, and play to our strengths. Unfortunately, I don't think the current coaching staff are capable of this. So I am not really expecting an improvement for a good while..

No I agree totally Rory, and just to clarify.... when I say physicality I don't mean just making the players gym monkeys... I mean having the physical and mental ability to perform at maximum intensity over 80min week in week out.

Being first to rucks and winning collisions every game, having a solid set piece, getting across the gainline, putting in big hits and having good line speed in defence. .....not just every third game when our backs are against the wall.

Sports specific fitness, conditioning, power and skill of the highest level. Mental strength too.

Right now we are off the pace a bit I think.

I think it's a mix of both needing new coaches and needing the players to be more adaptable. For me, they're to entrenched in their Provincial mindsets. Whilst this is brilliant for the provinces, it's detrimental for Ireland. You need to find a balance (as do Wales, but in the opposite way!)

have got to say I will be surprised if Kidney does stay though, if that had been the WRU he'd have been gone already. True to our form, it wouldn't have been done in a nice way (as per Gareth Jenkins), but he'd still be gone.....

I am late to the conversation but would like to add my 1 cent.

Why could Ireland bring the intensity in the second test but then failed so badly in the thurd test?

What Ireland need to take from this tour is only the second test, they can learn very little from the first and third test.

If I was declan (now don't laugh) In the AI's I wouls start with the Leinster team, only look at players outside the Leinster team that are seriously considered better.

Then add the Leinster coach as technical advisor for the matches, let them play and see where the players are that can't step up.

Then slowly work it from there. if it is necessary to start with 15 Leinstermen, then so be it, their core values, they gameplay and ethos needs to be instilled into the national team, their record proves that.

Would you say though that the conditioning aspect does have a lot to do with our forwards doing nearly everything these days? Sometimes it feels like 8 players against 15. And when those 8 players aren't up to it, incidents like yesterday and England during the 6 nations happen.

Now now Biltong, you've clearly just copied what Gatland did when he first joined the Wales set up! Just change Leinster for the Ospreys. Still, it worked mind....

Hey I did say 1 cent.