England backrow for the AIs

First topic message reminder :

So we've speculated about the England back 3 given Foden's unfortunate injury but what about the back row


Johnson, the man with the 6 shirt, is injured, quite badly it seems.
Croft should be back in October but will it be soon enough?
Wood is back but only at 80-85% at his own admission
Robshaw is captain and in form but Wood was first choice before his injury, how does his return affect Robshaw's place?
Morgan is one of Gloucester's most convincing players at the moment but Fearns is looking in form, Vunipola too and so is Guest
Haskell was dropped from the EPS but has made an impact for Wasps. Could Johnson's injury open the way for him again.
Armitage is highly lauded but in France
Waldrum's and Easter are old and unwanted by some but their form at 8 is as good as anyone's
And is Kvesic still England next long term 7? Or is that 8?

Johnson's injury plus the limited playing time and injury of Wood and Croft has made the 6 position (and because Robshaw can cover 6, 7 by extension) very interesting and I'm still not sure Morgan is quite nailed on at 8. What's your back row for Fiji from what we know now?

Aparently it isnt so bad mate...so should be available for selection.

ChequeredJersey wrote:But if Croft is fit in time, the Croft, Robshaw, Morgan partnership was fairly effective in the 6N

This with Haskell and Waldrom on the bench. Will be interesting to see Woods form, but i don't think he'll be firing on all cylinders until the 6N.

6.Johnston
7.Robshaw
8. Waldrom

Bench - Haskell, Morgan

Have that Back row playing behind -
1.Corbis (Marler if Corbis not fit)
2.Hartley
3. Cole
4.Palmer
5.Parling

propdavid_london wrote:6.Johnston
7.Robshaw
8. Waldrom

Bench - Haskell, Morgan

Have that Back row playing behind -
1.Corbis (Marler if Corbis not fit)
2.Hartley
3. Cole
4.Palmer
5.Parling

I think your right...but that in bold just doesnt inspire me at all....but i think...who else is there. Launchbury? Lawes?

Over the years we've had some fabulous SR's...why are we in such a dearth at the moment...

I'd love to see Launchburry given the start at lock for Fiji, alongisde Parling.

Yeah id like to see Launchbury involved in the AI's and that might be the best game.

Im still convinced that had he not been injured he would have got a bit of time in the final summer test. I think SL rates him highly...

Definitely. I was so glad that SL took him out to SA to help him get the feel of the EPS. I think that was a great coaching move.

If he's involved in the AIs, he'll already have been around the EPS squad, and he won't be surprised, allowing him to concentrate solely on the rugby.

Agree - but as you say, who else is there.
Palmer has been playing well and offers experience to boot.
Parling had a pretty good tour and is playing well for Tigers.

Lawes would be a shoe in - but has been long term injured and hasnt played. On the team sheet for this weekend though.

Botha - while appearing to try hard seemed to make too many errors! I dont know if there are stats to back it or maybe its just perception.

Robson - Like Botha he puts a lot in. but I dont know if he can make that step up - fantastic lock for quins though!

Attwood - cant get starting spot infront of Hooper and Day.

Launchbury - seen a lot from this kid at Wasps. But, does he bring the grunt required of a 2nd row - he's fast and can carry but we need the solidity at scrum time too. That may come.

There are others I am sure that i'm forgetting but they arent there yet - Kitchener, Gison, etc.

Where is the young Shaw that we are looking for - the player that the oposition fears so much that they change their game plans to try and negate.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:6.Johnston
7.Robshaw
8. Waldrom

Bench - Haskell, Morgan

Have that Back row playing behind -
1.Corbis (Marler if Corbis not fit)
2.Hartley
3. Cole
4.Palmer
5.Parling

I think your right...but that in bold just doesnt inspire me at all....but i think...who else is there. Launchbury? Lawes?

Over the years we've had some fabulous SR's...why are we in such a dearth at the moment...

Geordie Falcon

Cheer up mate!

For a start Palmer is an excellent second row with all the skills. He may not be a power ball carrier (more on that in a minute) but he does all the basics very well and the add ons. Hits rucks, clears bodies, makes tackles, can pass which is more than you can say for some of our centres over the years (remember it was he who slipped the ball to Ashton for a try in Sydney) He should have a LOT more England caps and has been criminally underused.

Parling - lineout man and the jury is out because as we learned with the "Borthwick Experience" ( a new ride at the world of sh*t adventures) you need your srowers to give a bit more than lineout jumping.

Botha - not my cup of tea but getting better i think and does work hard. All the things that Palmer does. That said he does have a worrying knack of shooting out of the line and missing tackles.

Lawes - if he can stay fit and settle into his role in the srow could be a fantastic option for years to come.

Attwood and Garvey - two of your more traditional ball carrying mongrel second rowers that England have always done well with. Need at least one of this ilk in the pack.

Launchbury the coming man. Modern srower. Could be excellent for us.

Yeah i suppose your right Tri...

I agree with you about Palmer actually, he's been very good for England for a while now.

Palmer is good, and underrated. I like him because sometimes he looks like predator in his scrum cap with his hair poking through.

Botha needs to seriously pull the stops out if he wants consistent inclusions. He needs to make every tackle- he has a horrible habit of going in for the hit and being shrugged off. He almost needs to be more aggressive.

What we need is a young Louise Deacon or Ollie Kohn with a bit more talent. Sadly I don't see any locks like that coming through.

Kitchener seems to be getting s bit more sensible these days aswell and offers potentially as much as Plamer.

The trouble with Palmer is that he goes from being 'the world's perfect modern forward' - coined by the England management during the 2010 AI's to fading out of games and seeming ineffectual.

As prop-david points out where's the next Simon Shaw? Attwood has looked ok when coming off the bench and unfortunately for all of us Garvey has been injured.

Launchburry is my pick for the Fiji game.

yappysnap wrote:What we need is a young Louise Deacon or Ollie Kohn with a bit more talent. Sadly I don't see any locks like that coming through.

Lousie Deacon - a scary date.

I think we'll be seeing a very different set of locks in the EPS come the Six Nations ,if everyone returns from injury ok.

Lawes, Garvey, Attwood possibly, Launcburry....I expect that most of, if not all these guys will be included.

bluestonevedder wrote:I think we'll be seeing a very different set of locks in the EPS come the Six Nations ,if everyone returns from injury ok.

Lawes, Garvey, Attwood possibly, Launcburry....I expect that most of, if not all these guys will be included.

I don't think either Garvey or Attwood have a snowball's to be honest blestone. My feeling is that Lancaster wants lightweight mobile second rows and these guys don't fit the bill. I disagree completely with that idea but the evidence suggests that is the case. Lawes is a great talent but even he is not of the Johnson mould.

You've only got to look at the Saxons to see that with Robson/Kitchener in there preference has not been given to a real No.4 lock. Attwood could've retained his place or certainly many thought Garvey would make the EPS but neither made it. Heck we even saw Myall start over Garvey for the Saxons and Gaskell appears to be continually selected even though he's got to be the oddest build for a forward ever.

Maybe it was more wishful thinking on my part Chjw131!

I'm assuming that Lawes and Parling will be definite locks in SL's mind, and that eventually, more so out of forced necessity rather than merit, a big, bruising lock like either Attwood or Garvey will be brought in. Especially if we choose to play either Croft or Wood on a flank (which, given how cracking they are, is an almost certainty).

Myall and Gaskell are ridiculous choices in my mind, and a waste of a Saxons place. They both seem to be these 'hybrid' type players, somewhere between a light lock or an athletic six. We don't need anymore of these players!

bluestonevedder wrote:Maybe it was more wishful thinking on my part Chjw131!

I'm assuming that Lawes and Parling will be definite locks in SL's mind, and that eventually, more so out of forced necessity rather than merit, a big, bruising lock like either Attwood or Garvey will be brought in. Especially if we choose to play either Croft or Wood on a flank (which, given how cracking they are, is an almost certainty).

Myall and Gaskell are ridiculous choices in my mind, and a waste of a Saxons place. They both seem to be these 'hybrid' type players, somewhere between a light lock or an athletic six. We don't need anymore of these players!

Spot on.

Chjw131 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Maybe it was more wishful thinking on my part Chjw131!

I'm assuming that Lawes and Parling will be definite locks in SL's mind, and that eventually, more so out of forced necessity rather than merit, a big, bruising lock like either Attwood or Garvey will be brought in. Especially if we choose to play either Croft or Wood on a flank (which, given how cracking they are, is an almost certainty).

Myall and Gaskell are ridiculous choices in my mind, and a waste of a Saxons place. They both seem to be these 'hybrid' type players, somewhere between a light lock or an athletic six. We don't need anymore of these players!

Spot on.

+1

It is my one major beef with Lancaster - this fettish for lightweights in the srow.

What is it with our coaches?!!? They always come with at least one weird selectorial blindspot/idiosyncrasy. It drives me nuts.

Whether it is a penchant for the borthwich experience, picking players out of position, picking two almost 2 identical non passing centres and now picking only lightweight srowers (coupled with at least one willowy back rower)

WTF is wrong with our selectors down the years?

Part of me thinks that it's EGO i.e "putting their stamp" on the England team. If it is that that to my mind is treasonous and unforgiveable.

Can't see Wood playing 6 for England with Robshaw at 7. Lawes is starting at 6 for Saints this week - I think he's a real option there for England given he offers a proper line out option and obviously enjoys tackling.

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Palmer
Launchbury
Lawes
Robshaw
Morgan.

That's an impressive looking pack I reckon.

DaveM wrote:Can't see Wood playing 6 for England with Robshaw at 7. Lawes is starting at 6 for Saints this week - I think he's a real option there for England given he offers a proper line out option and obviously enjoys tackling.

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Palmer
Launchbury
Lawes
Robshaw
Morgan.

That's an impressive looking pack I reckon.

I'd agree Dave, and had Lawes been fit for the South Africa tour i'd have like to see him at 6 for a while. My only issue with having that back 5 is that there's perhaps not enough grunt and groundwork being done there. Lawes is a big tackler and carries well at times (although he still takes contact too upright) but he doesn't do all that much of the dirty stuff. Morgan is also of a similar style.

As an aside, and not that i'm a great fan of his but Crane at 8 would give Lawes and Robshaw some leeway in the loose. I do like the look of that pack though with perhaps 16. T Youngs 17. A Corbisiero 18. D Wilson 19. M Garvey 20. C Fearns. A heavy duty pack if ever I saw one.

Dont forget that the front row...particularly Hartley and COle have been very noticeable at the breakdown....at the expense of ball carrying.

Possibly the tactics are for the front row boys to increase their part in the scavenging aspects and the backrowers to concentrate more on the ball carrying?

I believe the saints use Hartley as a key breakdown man...maybe Rowntree agrees with it and arent concerned with his lack of carrying as a result.

Ive said before im a big fan of Fearns aswell. His conditioning in SA looked very poor (as did Morgans). Hopefully he will have taken that on board..and realised where his fitness needs to be to compete at that level...he could be a huge player for England. His breakdown and defence is very powerful.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Dont forget that the front row...particularly Hartley and COle have been very noticeable at the breakdown....at the expense of ball carrying.

Possibly the tactics are for the front row boys to increase their part in the scavenging aspects and the backrowers to concentrate more on the ball carrying?

I believe the saints use Hartley as a key breakdown man...maybe Rowntree agrees with it and arent concerned with his lack of carrying as a result.

Ive said before im a big fan of Fearns aswell. His conditioning in SA looked very poor (as did Morgans). Hopefully he will have taken that on board..and realised where his fitness needs to be to compete at that level...he could be a huge player for England. His breakdown and defence is very powerful.

I agree Geordie, but I like my hookers to do a bit more in open play as well as the breakdown work. Hartley has played well for Saints since the break, but in my opinion hasn't been up to some of his early promise for England. After being supplanted by Thompson his general play went down I feel.

Fearns is indeed a great prospect and his fitness has come on leaps and bounds in only a short time. I think he is starting to flourish under Gary Gold and his performance against Saints for Bath was excellent a couple of weeks ago. Despite his breakdown work being good i'd rather see him at 6 or 8 in future for England.

Id prefer him as a 6 or 8 Chj.

I like my 6 to be the tough nut that puts his head where it hurts, is a steel wall in defence, lineout is a bonus...and makes the hard yards...nothing flashy...just a pure bruiser. Fearns fits that bill.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id prefer him as a 6 or 8 Chj.

I like my 6 to be the tough nut that puts his head where it hurts, is a steel wall in defence, lineout is a bonus...and makes the hard yards...nothing flashy...just a pure bruiser. Fearns fits that bill.

Surely Laws fits that as well though? And has proven int experience.

Ah yes he certainly does Yappy..and has that extra lineout bonus...

Fearns will make a great 6 for England sometime soon. Lawes there for a minute wouldn't fuss me and as you say Yappy he has the experience.

My only issue is that we're short enough of talent in the Second Row without poaching Lawes to an already swollen abundance of talent in the back row.

A pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

..would have some real bite to it.

Chjw131 wrote:Fearns will make a great 6 for England sometime soon. Lawes there for a minute wouldn't fuss me and as you say Yappy he has the experience.

My only issue is that we're short enough of talent in the Second Row without poaching Lawes to an already swollen abundance of talent in the back row.

A pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

..would have some real bite to it.

Have you ever thought of running for Stuart Lancaster's job? Would love to see England put that pack out!

It's young, it's got carriers, it's got great defence, it's got guys that can forage and it could be competitive in the lineout. Corbisiero and Cole are turning into a fearsome scrummaging unit too.

Could also have Croft/ Wood on the bench for impact/ to shore up the lineout.

Cumbrian wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Fearns will make a great 6 for England sometime soon. Lawes there for a minute wouldn't fuss me and as you say Yappy he has the experience.

My only issue is that we're short enough of talent in the Second Row without poaching Lawes to an already swollen abundance of talent in the back row.

A pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

..would have some real bite to it.

Have you ever thought of running for Stuart Lancaster's job? Would love to see England put that pack out!

Ha, thanks Cumbrian. Yea i'd like to see it take the field and I could see that pack with (as you say) Croft/Wood on the bench starting RWC 2015. Add to that some real quality coming through in the backs (Ford, May, Wade, Joseph etc) and some depth in the front row with Thomas, George and maybe Garvey coming through and it looks full of 'potential'.

Oh and Marler/Vunipola on the bench?

Fearns/Haskell in the AP this season

Matches 3/3
Carries 13/14
Metres 40/39
Clean Breaks 1/1
Offloads 1/2
Defenders Beaten 0/1
Tackles 40/18
Tackles Missed 2/1
Penalties Conceded 0/6

Pens conceded jumps out straight away, and of course tackles made but that has more to do with Bath's game plan than anything else.

By 2015 I expect Sinckler to be in the EPS along with the Vunipola brothers.

stlowe wrote:Fearns/Haskell in the AP this season

Matches 3/3
Carries 13/14
Metres 40/39
Clean Breaks 1/1
Offloads 1/2
Defenders Beaten 0/1
Tackles 40/18
Tackles Missed 2/1
Penalties Conceded 0/6

Penalties conceded will be higher as it's Haskells job to disrupt play on the floor along with Poff. Fearns doesn't really do this and as you can see is just there for his tackling. Also Fearns has started and played all or most of those three matces while Hask has only play 60 mins for two of them and started on the bench for the third.

Oh and finally Haskell gave away a lot of penalties when he first started in SuperRugby but then got used to the interpritations and was generally very good. I expect the same to happen this season.

Its interesting that many of our SR hopes are getting quite a bit of time at 6...

Lawes, Launchbury...a bit down the line Savage at Glos (though he's playing at 4 today - and really putting himself about..and showing good hands)

yappysnap wrote:

stlowe wrote:Fearns/Haskell in the AP this season

Matches 3/3
Carries 13/14
Metres 40/39
Clean Breaks 1/1
Offloads 1/2
Defenders Beaten 0/1
Tackles 40/18
Tackles Missed 2/1
Penalties Conceded 0/6

Penalties conceded will be higher as it's Haskells job to disrupt play on the floor along with Poff. Fearns doesn't really do this and as you can see is just there for his tackling. Also Fearns has started and played all or most of those three matces while Hask has only play 60 mins for two of them and started on the bench for the third.

I completely disagree with this, in the 2 games I've seen Fearns has been doing great work at the breakdown for Bath this season, and it's something he's done a lot of in previous seasons as well.

Haskell did come off the bench in the third match, but he played 65 & 80 mins in the first 2 games. Fearns played 80 mins twice and 50 mins in his 3 games.

Nick Easter picked up man-of-the-match in yesterday's game against Leicester.

Conor O'Shea thinks his man should be back in England set-up. Not surprising for a coach to support his player but Clive Woodward has echoed that thought, and a couple of journalists are also speculating along similar lines in their match reports.

It will be interesting to see whether Lancaster is prepared to turn back to some of his discards if they look in form, or if he believes it's more important to give newer selections an extended run.

There might be some temptation if Easter is indeed looking lively (I haven't seen enough of him) given that he plays with Robshaw and Care, who are both in Lancaster's plans.

Personally i think Lancaster got it wrong with Easter. He has been Englands top performing 8 in the league for years now...with Crane. He should have kept him there until Morgan etc had proved themselves for the clubs.

However he has made that decision and he should not go back now. Morgan, Crane, Waldrom..maybe Fearns are fighting for the spot now.

The thing is, whilst I feel ge was no way near as bad as many made out, pre being dropped Easter did have a drop in form, especially for England. Since the RWC and especially since being discarded though he has been magnificent and surely one point in dropping players be they 20 or 40 is to drive them back into work and form? I don't think he should start for England after being dropped and given the young talented players being groomed but getting him involved with the squad would allow him to impart his wisdom in the grittier bits of being an 8 upon the young uns

ChequeredJersey wrote:The thing is, whilst I feel ge was no way near as bad as many made out, pre being dropped Easter did have a drop in form, especially for England. Since the RWC and especially since being discarded though he has been magnificent and surely one point in dropping players be they 20 or 40 is to drive them back into work and form? I don't think he should start for England after being dropped and given the young talented players being groomed but getting him involved with the squad would allow him to impart his wisdom in the grittier bits of being an 8 upon the young uns

Completely agree, but I still have doubts about Easter stepping up to Int level again, much like Robson.

Savage really impressed me at 4. Interesting possible combination with Launchbury.

Yeah he looks a big powerful lump...with good hands aswell.

Savage went very well on the weekend, but i'd like to see him get an extended run at 4. for Glaws. He's come on a lot in pre-season and could be a contender come the summer.

I think we need to keep Palmer in and around the team as some experience in the engine room. Parling, Lawes, Savage, Launchberry Matthews etc are all very young or inexperienced and need an older hand in there with them. And Palmer is deceptively good at his job.

Absolutely right Yappy

Yes as i have said a thousand times Palmer is undervalued by the majority on here and i think by coaches. He should have more caps.

But were doomed anyway without an inside centre and with our injury attrition rate. Thin on the ground at prop we are.

TH we are short at yes.
Hooker we have zero experience if Hartley gets injured.

Palmer had a very good spell for England but i think his form just dropped a little in recently England performances. Botha is a trier who puts his head in but should be replaced sooner rather than later.

Oh and im not interested in "the perfect modern lock". I want a combo of athletic lineout guy who can still tackle, carry and get stuck in at the break down (Oh for Lawes to be a lineout master) ...and a monster lump who is ferocious at the tight stuff and makes the hard yards.

Also to be fair to Barritt at 12...he has been one of Englands stand out players sadly through his defensive efforts. Without him we'd have been a bit worse off i think.
We just need to see a litle more from him offensively...but for that to happen we also need Flood (or a 10 with skills) and not Farrell at 10...and need to see much more carrying from the frowards creating a bit more space for the midfield to work in.