England backrow for the AIs

First topic message reminder :

So we've speculated about the England back 3 given Foden's unfortunate injury but what about the back row


Johnson, the man with the 6 shirt, is injured, quite badly it seems.
Croft should be back in October but will it be soon enough?
Wood is back but only at 80-85% at his own admission
Robshaw is captain and in form but Wood was first choice before his injury, how does his return affect Robshaw's place?
Morgan is one of Gloucester's most convincing players at the moment but Fearns is looking in form, Vunipola too and so is Guest
Haskell was dropped from the EPS but has made an impact for Wasps. Could Johnson's injury open the way for him again.
Armitage is highly lauded but in France
Waldrum's and Easter are old and unwanted by some but their form at 8 is as good as anyone's
And is Kvesic still England next long term 7? Or is that 8?

Johnson's injury plus the limited playing time and injury of Wood and Croft has made the 6 position (and because Robshaw can cover 6, 7 by extension) very interesting and I'm still not sure Morgan is quite nailed on at 8. What's your back row for Fiji from what we know now?

Barritt is consistently associated with sides which have absolutely no attacking game. I don't think that is coincidence.

I'd still rather have Tuilagi there for now, with 36 and Burrell the coming men. Barritt and Flood need to be superseded by players who can run a convincing attacking game.

DaveM wrote:Barritt is consistently associated with sides which have absolutely no attacking game. I don't think that is coincidence.

I'd still rather have Tuilagi there for now, with 36 and Burrell the coming men. Barritt and Flood need to be superseded by players who can run a convincing attacking game.

I think it's quite a leap to claim England's attacking woes are largely down to Barritt. England wasn't a miracle attacking side prior to Barritt or when he's been injured since he's joined the ranks. In terms of "consistently assoociated", he's only played at Saracens over here, who have a distinct methodology in play. That's not down to him, but the systems instilled by the coaches. Players put into practice what they are told to, otherwise Saracens would have suddenly scored a lot more tries last season when Hodgson arrived.

In terms of the future, 36 definitely looks like the man we've been hoping for to me as well. Not sure why you would suggest Burrell given your desire for more inventive rugby though. He looks effective for Saints so far, but he's a straight up & down man, Downey mk2. Burrell & Tuilagi paired in the centres would be a pretty stodgy affair.

Dave,

Im with Bernz there...im not sure we can put all Englands attacking woes at Barritts feet. He's played a number of games for both club and country with Farrell at 10.

Also James Fitzpatrick is twice the player Burrell is , if your looking for a power centre.

I would also say that Barritt, whilst defensively minded isn't the sole issue when it comes to our attack. Half the problem is that, for England at least he's had to play alongside Farrell who is as one dimensional as they come when it comes to attacking play.

If Flood and possibly Burns can him up alongside them I think Barritt can work on his distribution game. We also have to balance that with his sterling defence, and we do need a defence leader in the backline.

Barritt has played alongside Hodgson for both Sarries and England. Players can learn to defend, learning to attack is much harder.

I'm not lumping all of England's attacking failing on him, I'm just saying he's part of the problem.

And I reckon Burrell has a passing game, as well as a natural athletic ability which is certainly worth keeping an eye on, but we'll see how he progreses.

Chjw131 wrote:Fearns will make a great 6 for England sometime soon. Lawes there for a minute wouldn't fuss me and as you say Yappy he has the experience.

My only issue is that we're short enough of talent in the Second Row without poaching Lawes to an already swollen abundance of talent in the back row.

A pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

..would have some real bite to it.

I like this, might have Hartley at hooker and Garvey for Launchbury, but wouldn't be upset with that.

My one issue since the SA tests is this - ALL our forwards, including people like Marler, were utterly man-handled by Alberts. I know he is a freak and an absolute mammoth, but I really never want to see that happen again.

My starting point since then has been 'Who would stop Alberts on the gainline at full tilt' I know it's not the way to build a team, but there it is. The only player i have seen this season who looks like he has the natural bulk and strength to do that is Vunipola. His carrying when i've seen him has also been fantastic. I'd really like to see him given a go at 8. There's plenty of time of course, but if he improves other areas of his game (his fitness and agility already look streets ahead of last year) then he could be frightening.

I suppose this highlights the problem. Too many options, who to choose?!

Hood83 wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Fearns will make a great 6 for England sometime soon. Lawes there for a minute wouldn't fuss me and as you say Yappy he has the experience.

My only issue is that we're short enough of talent in the Second Row without poaching Lawes to an already swollen abundance of talent in the back row.

A pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

..would have some real bite to it.

I like this, might have Hartley at hooker and Garvey for Launchbury, but wouldn't be upset with that.

My one issue since the SA tests is this - ALL our forwards, including people like Marler, were utterly man-handled by Alberts. I know he is a freak and an absolute mammoth, but I really never want to see that happen again.

My starting point since then has been 'Who would stop Alberts on the gainline at full tilt' I know it's not the way to build a team, but there it is. The only player i have seen this season who looks like he has the natural bulk and strength to do that is Vunipola. His carrying when i've seen him has also been fantastic. I'd really like to see him given a go at 8. There's plenty of time of course, but if he improves other areas of his game (his fitness and agility already look streets ahead of last year) then he could be frightening.

I suppose this highlights the problem. Too many options, who to choose?!

You're looking at it completely wrong. It's not who would stop Alberts on the gainline but how do we stop players like Alberts getting in a position to be on that line at pace?

In SA we kicked far too much and chased poorly. SA then had their wings running it back and making a lot of ground, their forwards then worked as a team running at a poorly aligned D (Lancaster was the D coach ) It wasn't just a case of stopping Alberts but having to stop him and Du Plessisx2, Kruger, Beast, F Steyn all at pace. We gave them the rope to hang us and they did that very well (but still we did manage to keep those games close).

Now we aren't ever going to manage to physically out muscle the Boks over night so we need to look at playing a game plan that doesn't require that ala NZ and Oz. And when our forwards do have to tackle these monsters we will hopefully have a real defence coach and some organisation. It was noticeable that when we ran the ball their forwards would gang tackle us with two or three men and drive us back, killing any momentum gained. When we defended we tried to tackle one on one and handed them the gainline.

Lets not get completely hung up on players size; skill, speed, aggression, smarts and fitness are all key factors too.

Sorry if it seems like i'm ranting, I didn't mean this to be one but Lancasters coaching on that tour just winds me up!

Hood83 wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Fearns will make a great 6 for England sometime soon. Lawes there for a minute wouldn't fuss me and as you say Yappy he has the experience.

My only issue is that we're short enough of talent in the Second Row without poaching Lawes to an already swollen abundance of talent in the back row.

A pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

..would have some real bite to it.

I like this, might have Hartley at hooker and Garvey for Launchbury, but wouldn't be upset with that.

My one issue since the SA tests is this - ALL our forwards, including people like Marler, were utterly man-handled by Alberts. I know he is a freak and an absolute mammoth, but I really never want to see that happen again.

My starting point since then has been 'Who would stop Alberts on the gainline at full tilt' I know it's not the way to build a team, but there it is. The only player i have seen this season who looks like he has the natural bulk and strength to do that is Vunipola. His carrying when i've seen him has also been fantastic. I'd really like to see him given a go at 8. There's plenty of time of course, but if he improves other areas of his game (his fitness and agility already look streets ahead of last year) then he could be frightening.

I suppose this highlights the problem. Too many options, who to choose?!

We could well see both Vunipola bros playing for England in the not too distant future. They'll certainly give us some more physicality.

So we're moving away from Being a second rate new Zealand team to a pacific island team.

Dave, Burrell has barely flickered on the radar for.either sale or Leeds. Why then after two games for saints is he suddenly the next big thing?

Geordiefalcon it's a pacific island team with English funding and development. They've come through the age groups. Not the only side to do it.

Most international side have players that can be deemed from another nation.

The finger can be pointed at most countries.

As long as you feel a certain allegiance to a country does it matter?

I must admit, I'm with Beshocked. When it comes to players I've always thought it is more important where they grow up and how they view themselves rather than the land they were born on. It's why I've never really had an issue with Wales playing the likes of North or Lydiate.

The Vunipolas have grown up here and come through our system, so I have got no problem with them playing for us at all.

Exactly Cumbrian. It's different to the " I want to play for England because I want international rugby". It's more I want to play for England because they've looked after me, they are my country. I moved here, I play here.

I could have chosen Tonga,NZ,Fiji or South Africa etc but I chose England. Not because it's easier but because it's where my loyalties lie.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So we're moving away from Being a second rate new Zealand team to a pacific island team.

Dave, Burrell has barely flickered on the radar for.either sale or Leeds. Why then after two games for saints is he suddenly the next big thing?

I think Mako lived in New Zealand for a year, Australia for 3 years, Wales for 4 years and England since he was about 8.
I think Billy lived in Australia for 3 years, Wales for 4 years and England since he was about 7.

These guys can't consider themselves as English?

Wow...I stand corrected
The last thing I wanted to do was start another flamin eligibility discussion

GeordieFalcon wrote: Wow...I stand corrected
The last thing I wanted to do was start another flamin eligibility discussion

Nah, it's fair enough. I think the question is there to be asked.

Now that we’ve decided that Mako is as English as the Admiral Lord Nelson he adds to our young prop resources.

1. Alex Corbisiero (24, 16 Caps), Joe Marler (22, 2 Caps), Matt Mullan (24, 1 Cap) and Mako Vunipola (21),

3. Dan Cole (25, 31 Caps), David Wilson (27, 19 Caps), Paul Doran-Jones (27, 4 Caps), Henry Thomas (20) and Kyle Sinckler (19), Rupert Harden (27)


When you consider that David Wilson and Paul Doran-Jones are the old men at 27!?! You know that we should be well sorted for a long time to come

There is also a chance that a prop will develop out of nowhere, look how quickly Dan Cole came along. So there is a whole host of promising props under the age of 24 worth keeping an eye on.

Kieran Brookes (Leicester), Alex Waller (Northampton), Nathan Catt (Bath), Kane Palma-Newport (Bath), Shaun Knight (Gloucester), Will Collier (Quins) and Max Lahiff (London Irish).


Exciting days.
Ooops, got a bit carried away there.

Darryl Marfo of Quins is another youngster to watch, just 21.

Dont forget Scott Wilson for a little further down the line...though hes playing develpment rugby already...

Nathan Catt is already in the Saxons with Vunipola and Mullan so I think he's firmly in the resources pile rather than ones to keep an eye on. He's played well for Bath so far.

It's great to see such young props coming through, it seems that the days of a prop waiting until he turns 28 to get a shot at international level are well gone. Perhaps down to some excellent training through the age groups? Give Sinckler another few years and he'll be quite something I think.

Shame we can't say the same for the Second Row!

I'd join beshocked and the others on the Vunipola brothers as well, they've been here from a young age and if their allegiances are here then great. Botha and Joubert on the other hand...

Second Row is a curious one.

We have:

Launchbury, Slater, Kitchener, Lawes (Still only young really), Attwood, Garvey who are heopfuls...though im Concerned that Attwood hasnt become the player maybe we all hoped he would.

Further away...Matthews, Itoje...Savage (23ish but a late develper?)

So we have options...just need a couple of them to really take that shirt and make it a no contest...for their selection...

I watched Gloucester Wasps replay last night and Savage impressed me a lot. He carries well and hit hard. Has he got the size for an international second row though?

Many of the young hopefuls are seeimingly caught between 4 & 6 spots...and maybe their size is reflecting that...

Yeh, that's a real trend at the moment. I'm hoping that playing them at 6 is a temporary thing, until their bodies have filled out enough for second row. However, Savage is 23 and is probably at his full weight now....

I like him though- he seems to have real grit and a nasty streak, which every other English lock in the prem seems to be missing.

bluestonevedder wrote:I watched Gloucester Wasps replay last night and Savage impressed me a lot. He carries well and hit hard. Has he got the size for an international second row though?

Well he is 6ft 5in and 18st 1lb, for comparison purposes there is precedents of players of a similar size excelling at international level such as Paul O'Connell.


Paul O'Connnell 6ft 6in & 17st 4lb
http://www.irishrugby.ie/squads/index.php?player=4562&includeref=dynamic


Come to think of it, he is virtually the same height and weight as Mouritz Botha (6ft 6in & 18st 1lb), the guy he is looking to replace.
http://www.rfu.com/SquadsAndPlayers/EnglandElite/MouritzBotha

He's certainly got some weight behind him, and he's definitely bigger than Botha. I think Botha's stats are hugely blown up to try and reinforce that 'enforcer' role he is meant to fill.

What do you think of Savage Cumbrian? Impressed with what you've seen so far?

Yeah, like others I have been impressed with him. He is very mobile but powerful, always seems to make ground. Runs some good support lines in attack too. Unlike some big guys he also seems to have a good engine to him. At the same time he is athletic enough to be effective in the lineout.

Does he have that hard edge to him that will see him become a very good international? I'm not so sure yet. But at 23 he's got a good couple of years to develop it.

Does anyone else think that Attwood may have missed the boat...or may not hit the hieghts we thought and hoped for?

And do we think Lawes can sort his injuries out and fulfill his potential?

Attwood still has time, but he is looking a little lost at the moment. I'm not sure Bath has been the right move for him. He doesn't seem to have the spark that brought him to people's attention at Gloucester.

Perhaps a move away might do him some good? Something just doesn't seem right with him.

I am confident Lawes will get back and firing, I like the situation he has got at Northampton with players like Manoa and Day, he can rotate in the same way Dan Cole can at Leicester. I think it will do him good in the long run.

Originally I think Attwood made the wrong move. Bath under McGeechan and Meehan was not really the best place for him to become a hard-nosed grafting second row.

Having said that, it's best now that he stays put and starts to learn from Gary Gold's attitude and approach. From a purely forwards perspective Gold will do him wonders I think. Fearns has already started looking better and more consistent, likewise with Wilson and even Banahan is showing signs of improvement.

I don't think he's missed the boat but if you were to pose the question: who would you give a go in the EPS Dave Attwood or Matt Garvey? I know what my pick would be.

From LIrish website:

Matt Garvey: Won Defender of the year of LIrish with a 95% tackle completion ratio.

6ft 5" - 19st 3lbs

Dave Attwood:

6ft 7" - 18st 2lb

I know weight is relatively meaningless as far as players and performances go, but it's easy to see why Garvey makes the better inroads with his carrying and aggressive defence.

Incidentally Savage has a better power to weight ratio than Attwood.

The thing about Attwood was that as well as being a big lad he had a good turn of pace and pretty good hands. Haven't really seen that since his move sadly

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Dave, Burrell has barely flickered on the radar for.either sale or Leeds. Why then after two games for saints is he suddenly the next big thing?

Because he appears to be an exceptional athlete, because he runs lovely attacking lines, and because he's playing 12 for arguably the best side in English rugby at the moment. No guarentees, but a very interesting prospect who I've been following for a few years now but who seems to have really kicked on.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Second Row is a curious one.

We have:

Launchbury, Slater, Kitchener, Lawes (Still only young really), Attwood, Garvey who are heopfuls...though im Concerned that Attwood hasnt become the player maybe we all hoped he would.

Further away...Matthews, Itoje...Savage (23ish but a late develper?)

So we have options...just need a couple of them to really take that shirt and make it a no contest...for their selection...

I remember posting on the old 606 that I was worried about the emerging lock situation.

I don't think there is any need for panic though. Launchbury is potentially world class, as is Lawes, Savage looks an excellent prospect, Palmer and Parling are decent players, Garvey, Kitchener and even Slater may yet make it, I've been impressed with what I've seen of Matthews and I'd expect the England set up to encourage Itoje to focus on the second row.

Lawes needs to realise that 'potential world class' status pretty quick, i hear he has beefed up so we shoudl see some big hits in the autumn

Hhhhmm ive been calling for Lawes to add some beef on him.
I think he just needs a good run injury free...hes been unlucky with the number he's had.

He would be a real top class SR if he did...

yappysnap wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Fearns will make a great 6 for England sometime soon. Lawes there for a minute wouldn't fuss me and as you say Yappy he has the experience.

My only issue is that we're short enough of talent in the Second Row without poaching Lawes to an already swollen abundance of talent in the back row.

A pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

..would have some real bite to it.

I like this, might have Hartley at hooker and Garvey for Launchbury, but wouldn't be upset with that.

My one issue since the SA tests is this - ALL our forwards, including people like Marler, were utterly man-handled by Alberts. I know he is a freak and an absolute mammoth, but I really never want to see that happen again.

My starting point since then has been 'Who would stop Alberts on the gainline at full tilt' I know it's not the way to build a team, but there it is. The only player i have seen this season who looks like he has the natural bulk and strength to do that is Vunipola. His carrying when i've seen him has also been fantastic. I'd really like to see him given a go at 8. There's plenty of time of course, but if he improves other areas of his game (his fitness and agility already look streets ahead of last year) then he could be frightening.

I suppose this highlights the problem. Too many options, who to choose?!

You're looking at it completely wrong. It's not who would stop Alberts on the gainline but how do we stop players like Alberts getting in a position to be on that line at pace?

In SA we kicked far too much and chased poorly. SA then had their wings running it back and making a lot of ground, their forwards then worked as a team running at a poorly aligned D (Lancaster was the D coach ) It wasn't just a case of stopping Alberts but having to stop him and Du Plessisx2, Kruger, Beast, F Steyn all at pace. We gave them the rope to hang us and they did that very well (but still we did manage to keep those games close).

Now we aren't ever going to manage to physically out muscle the Boks over night so we need to look at playing a game plan that doesn't require that ala NZ and Oz. And when our forwards do have to tackle these monsters we will hopefully have a real defence coach and some organisation. It was noticeable that when we ran the ball their forwards would gang tackle us with two or three men and drive us back, killing any momentum gained. When we defended we tried to tackle one on one and handed them the gainline.

Lets not get completely hung up on players size; skill, speed, aggression, smarts and fitness are all key factors too.

Sorry if it seems like i'm ranting, I didn't mean this to be one but Lancasters coaching on that tour just winds me up!

Don't be sorry, i can't disagree with any of the points you make.

Good points you make yappy, and I'm hoping that Farrell's inclusion improves our defence. I thought during the 6N we looked a lot more dogged, determined, and aggressive in defence- especially defending on our line.

The one thing that plays on my mind is that in our current starting pack, England haven't really got anyone with that 'nasty, aggressive' streak- the type of guy that evokes fear and trepidation in other guys. Trasitionally, I think this should be a second row player, and we don't seem to have any grunt there at the moment.

I think thats something most of us are pointing out Vedder...

Where is the monstrous powerhouse / nasty guys...Martin Johnson...Simon Shaws...

Lawes could provide a little of that...he's an agressive powerhouse IF we can get the guy injury free.

I too want our pack to have more bite. It is part of our heritage and i cant really hack not having it. We're never going to run sides like Australia and New Zealand off their feet but we have out matched them before in the forwards and we should be looking to again.

We just need to be hard nosed. We need to have a hard edge to us. We need to win collisions.

To that end i want the low slung power and mongrel of Steffan Armitage at least back in the mix.

Greenwood who i think all of us rate highly as a pundit has compared him to a weeble - you know those toys that will not fall over you can smash them as hard as you like and they just stay upright.

I know people are going to say that he needs to leave france and that we have riches at back row but for the love of god i think this Player of the Top 14 might be of some use and that we should not be afraid to make a move to encourage him back here.

We could put together a nasty enough pack if we wanted to.

Cole
Youngs
Marler
Attwood/Garvey/Savage
Lawes
Fearns
Armitage
Morgan

You'd know you'd played a game of rugby after playing that lot!

I dont think Lancaster is that interested.

I worry that by and large our back rowers are all tall and slight of build and our second rowers are light weight and lose collisions.

Rant over.

Tri

I think 95% of England fans would agree with you that we are missing a hardened edge to our forwards.

It will interesting to see where Lancaster goes in the AI's...to see if we are likely to get that back.

However

Robshaw isnt particularly soft. Neither is Cole, Hartley and Corbs...or Marler.

Fearns is a powerful guy, and haskell might be a gym bunny but he looks like hes developed a bit of a tougher edge.

We have a few...

We have the makings but we shouldn't still be seeing guys like Dowson, Botha and Waldrom cluttering up the senior EPS.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tri

I think 95% of England fans would agree with you that we are missing a hardened edge to our forwards.

It will interesting to see where Lancaster goes in the AI's...to see if we are likely to get that back.

However

Robshaw isnt particularly soft. Neither is Cole, Hartley and Corbs...or Marler.

Fearns is a powerful guy, and haskell might be a gym bunny but he looks like hes developed a bit of a tougher edge.

We have a few...

Yeah just to clarify i am not calling Robshaw or any of these guys soft. Hartley is not the ball carrier i first thought he was. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.

You need at least 6 ball carriers in the pack IMHO.

I would be ok with Armitage at 7 and Robshaw at 6 with Morgan (subject to fitness) 8.

We need to be smashing opponents backwards and making yardage on the drive. We need to own the gainline. We are not skilled enough to beat top sides without owning the gainline.

Get defences back pedalling and our backs will be good enough to play simple draw and pass rugby until there is nothing in front of the ball carrier but the tryline whether on the overlap or through a hole.

Chjw131 wrote:We have the makings but we shouldn't still be seeing guys like Dowson, Botha and Waldrom cluttering up the senior EPS.

Oh yeah and sorry Quins fans but i dont want Easter back either.

This PR campaign to get him back is giving me the sh*ts.

Yes he is playing very well at AP level in a fantastic quins side. It sounds like his leadership is helping too. Good on him but i cant forget seeing him owned by opponents as a ball carrier and being too slow to compensate for that.

I don't remember that he was ever that bad for England. More that he was blamed wrongly by a lot of supporters for an entire team that was inadequate and a back row that neither balanced nor in form

Triangulation wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tri

I think 95% of England fans would agree with you that we are missing a hardened edge to our forwards.

It will interesting to see where Lancaster goes in the AI's...to see if we are likely to get that back.

However

Robshaw isnt particularly soft. Neither is Cole, Hartley and Corbs...or Marler.

Fearns is a powerful guy, and haskell might be a gym bunny but he looks like hes developed a bit of a tougher edge.

We have a few...

Yeah just to clarify i am not calling Robshaw or any of these guys soft. Hartley is not the ball carrier i first thought he was. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.

You need at least 6 ball carriers in the pack IMHO.

I would be ok with Armitage at 7 and Robshaw at 6 with Morgan (subject to fitness) 8.

We need to be smashing opponents backwards and making yardage on the drive. We need to own the gainline. We are not skilled enough to beat top sides without owning the gainline.

Get defences back pedalling and our backs will be good enough to play simple draw and pass rugby until there is nothing in front of the ball carrier but the tryline whether on the overlap or through a hole.

I couldnt agree with this more. This is a glaring omission from our current team. We have noone who can really smash the ball in to opponents at pace and power. Morgan maybe if he can keep going for 80 mins...and maybe Waldrom...

Manu Tuilagi as well Geordie, although I don't think we've got the ball enough to him recently. When he gets up a head of steam he is very difficult to pull down.

Again i totally agree...

He's one though id prefer to see hitting the gaps aswell...if we actually had people to put him through them....

And another thing... We seem to be pretty poor at keeping and varying depth for ball carriers. We can give the ball to Manu or Morgan, but if they're both flat on the line they're never going to make much ground.

bluestonevedder wrote:Good points you make yappy, and I'm hoping that Farrell's inclusion improves our defence. I thought during the 6N we looked a lot more dogged, determined, and aggressive in defence- especially defending on our line.

The one thing that plays on my mind is that in our current starting pack, England haven't really got anyone with that 'nasty, aggressive' streak- the type of guy that evokes fear and trepidation in other guys. Trasitionally, I think this should be a second row player, and we don't seem to have any grunt there at the moment.

In the Leicester v Quins match Marler, Cole and Robshaw were all knocking massive lumps out of each other, there was real aggression on display and the tackling from these lads was massive. Likewise Hartley at Saints is playing like we knew he could and really getting about the park.

I don't think it's about the players that were chosen (although again Parling was a bit limp and Botha is only ever going to be above average) in as much as the coaches aren't getting them in the right frame of mind or getting the right tactics on to the field.

Chjw131 wrote:And another thing... We seem to be pretty poor at keeping and varying depth for ball carriers. We can give the ball to Manu or Morgan, but if they're both flat on the line they're never going to make much ground.

Exactly again, we don't need huge changes in the team, what we need is a gameplan that isn't Saracens. Lancaster has to look at how Leicester played in the second half of last season, how Quins have played these two seasons and then look at the mauling/scrummaging tactics of Saints and build something on that.

Only changes i'd bring in are Marler for Corbs (injury), Lawes for Botha to partner Palmer, Haskell for Johnson (injury), Monye for Foden (injury).