Regions at lowest point

First topic message reminder :

Surely I can't be the only fan of regional rugby to be feeling really down on the state we're all in. Before I know this wont go down well with Scarlets and O's fans, as they really are making the best of what they've got. My biggest worry is the standard of rugby on display. I attended the Dragons v Blues game and not only were they the weakest sides I've seen from these regions, the standard of play was appalling. Even Blues fans stood near me were commenting at how dire their side is, so what does that say about the Dragons?? I dont want to rubbish my region as I'm passionate about them, but the display on Friday was a complete embarrassment. Look at the Blues, getting thumped at home on consecutive weekends.
For me, I think that in Wales, we have several world class players, some very good players and below that, there is a big drop-off in standards. We have very little depth and it makes me wonder when people want a 5th region!! How poor would they be?
I watched the game on Friday and thought to myself that I hope Toby Faletau leaves the Dragons. If he stays at the Dragons he could well lose his welsh place. He's such a talent that he deserves so much better and I've no doubt that he and Lydiate will have no option other than to go go.
I take my hat off to the Scarlets. A few seasons ago they were the 4th placed region. They've turned that on it's head and how? Not by splashing cash, but by bringing through what seems like an endless amount of talent.
You know that by the end of the season, in the Rabies league, the 3 Irish provinces will be in the play-offs with 1 other from Wales or Scotland. The regions simply cannot compete in Europe. Not one will get into the quarters and yet Wales are grand slam winners!! Not that many players have gone abroad.
With the standard being so poor, attendances will surely decrease even further, yet Wales will sell-out for the autumn tests. I'd love to see the regions given more money to attract bigger names. That's the difference with the regions and the rest of Europe. I would like to see a limit on overseas players though to stop gross being brought in. But what would people rather, a successful national team or successful regions? Why can't we have both?
The national coaches must love seeing the youngsters blooded in the Rabies, but it doesn't bring success and only attracts die-hard followers. I watched the Gloucester v Bath Aviva game yesterday and was jealous. Jealous that there was a big derby, a packed house, two quality sides, high intensity and kicked off on a Saturday afternoon. What incentive was there for me to attend the Scarlets game on Friday? I couldn't possibly make a 7.05 KO on a Friday, but if I could, I'd have to be mad to go and watch that performance.
On a side-note. Just how bad is Sean Holley on Scrum V? Terrible!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So that's it, you refuse to countenance that these Romanians could be better than any props the Blues' clubs have.

What at 21yrs old, do you think they are better ? Do you think this kid will come in and make an imediate impact ?

Surely it is a money thing an eastern european tends to work for less cash than a local welsh lad (in most jobs) so maybe their rugby players are willing to take penuts for putting their bodies on the line, and our youngsters are not as keen?

So you mean to tell me they are giving them less than 15 grand a year to play rugby in Wales and to live here, with all the unemployment issues we have in and around the valleys I think that any wage argument could be countered.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So that's it, you refuse to countenance that these Romanians could be better than any props the Blues' clubs have.

What at 21yrs old, do you think they are better ? Do you think this kid will come in and make an imediate impact ?

I'm saying I doubt the Blues would be bringing in these Romanians if there were better players up in RCT.

I agree with Luckless - and LD you seem to be dismissing the Blues scouts/coaches who have seen and trained with the best players from around the Blues region, and have also watched and evaluated the Romanians. You are doing this even though you seem not to know who the best props are within the region, or how good these 2 props are.

I must say I'm siding with the region who've seen the players within and without the region, at least until I see either a candidate from the Blues region play, or see the Romanians play.

An intresting thing about the Blues the other week was

They had a higher attendance for the Edinburgh game last year in CCS than this year at CAP!

Just thought it was intresting that there was a big call out for them to move back, but then supporters just drifted off.

Think the same thing would happen if the valleys got a region, first few games decent crowds, a few losses later, empty ground.

The simple truth is people flock to a winning team, if a Welsh region could win a H-cup the crowds would come, I'm sure of that, esp if they beat some English clubs along the way.

Bragging rights gets fans attending, and supporting the best in Europe also, bet some of the Blues best attendances was around the time they reached the semi final

Yup, it really annoyed me about the Blues fans moaning last year that they hated the CCS and that it was difficult to get to (it was a 25min walk from town, with a free regular shuttle bus, good access to the M4, Barry, Penarth and easy to get to from Radyr) and that they would boycott the team until they moved back to CAP -hurting the team hugely, and meaning less than 2,000 Blues fans turned out to see some stalwarts last game - now their back at the CAP (taking a financial hit to leave the CCS), the fans aren't going as their moaning the team is rubbish and money needs to be spent to improve it!

SORRY - Note - that should read SOME Blues fans

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I agree with Luckless - and LD you seem to be dismissing the Blues scouts/coaches who have seen and trained with the best players from around the Blues region, and have also watched and evaluated the Romanians. You are doing this even though you seem not to know who the best props are within the region, or how good these 2 props are.

I must say I'm siding with the region who've seen the players within and without the region, at least until I see either a candidate from the Blues region play, or see the Romanians play.

None of the Blues NWQ forwards are any good, and at the same time none of them are better than what they could produce around them, the simple fact is the Blues could use an entirely NWQ pack at this rate and they are still getting there rear end given to them, I would rather see a young WQ pack play week in week out, they should be investing in players from their region, the Blues have the highest populated region so I will not have it that they cannot find any decent talent in their region.

Waht I am saying is, that if the players that the Blues scouts have brought in now are rubbish, then they are not doing a good job anyway, weather they find Welsh, Romanian, Fijian or what ever, they are bringing in crap players who are not good enough, they need to work harder in developing their home grown players.

Kingshu wrote:An intresting thing about the Blues the other week was

They had a higher attendance for the Edinburgh game last year in CCS than this year at CAP!

Just thought it was intresting that there was a big call out for them to move back, but then supporters just drifted off.

Think the same thing would happen if the valleys got a region, first few games decent crowds, a few losses later, empty ground.

The simple truth is people flock to a winning team, if a Welsh region could win a H-cup the crowds would come, I'm sure of that, esp if they beat some English clubs along the way.

Bragging rights gets fans attending, and supporting the best in Europe also, bet some of the Blues best attendances was around the time they reached the semi final

Success is definitely part of it, but it isn't all of it.

Scarlets haven't won anything for ages, yet they have had season upon season increases each year since the regions were formed and their attendances were up 15% last season, giving them the 3rd highest in the league.

The Blues definitely had bigger attendances the year of and the year after the Amlin final but then I think a lot of that was down to the quality of the rugby on display also.

There's no easy answer to attendances I don't think

LordDowlais wrote:Waht I am saying is, that if the players that the Blues scouts have brought in now are rubbish, then they are not doing a good job anyway, weather they find Welsh, Romanian, Fijian or what ever, they are bringing in crap players who are not good enough, they need to work harder in developing their home grown players.

So you're saying there's Definately better players within the region playing Premiership rugby than the NWQ players the Blues have signed?

Who are they? I think the Scarlets could do with a few!

Scarlets do not need them, thay played a ninteen year old last weekend. You did not see them rushing Romanians in to stem the tide.

We'd def want to get our hands on some cheap WQ prem players who are better than anything the Blues currently have!!!

We need all the strength in depth we can get - and we've only got 1 LH currently.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:We'd def want to get our hands on some cheap WQ prem players who are better than anything the Blues currently have!!!

We need all the strength in depth we can get - and we've only got 1 LH currently.

But this is my point, what is the point in having NWQ players who bring absolutley nothing to the table, I would rather see WQ players do this, if you are going foriegn then get a good one, not somebody with a cool sounding name like Campese Mafu, just because his namesake was world class it doesn't mean he will be.

LordDowlais wrote:Waht I am saying is, that if the players that the Blues scouts have brought in now are rubbish, then they are not doing a good job anyway, weather they find Welsh, Romanian, Fijian or what ever, they are bringing in crap players who are not good enough, they need to work harder in developing their home grown players.

At the risk of prompting another bout of goal post shifting from you, so if the players in the Prem clubs aren't good enough it's the region's fault, even though two minutes ago you reckoned the answer to all of east Wales rugby woes was to rock up to RTB and pluck a couple of world class props out of obscurity? And what has any of this got to do with the Dragons, who have regularly played Parry, Coundly, Buck, Price, Way, and others all from the academy or local prem sides in the front row? You're going to have to start making sense soon D, or people will think you're on a wind up.

LordDowlais wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:We'd def want to get our hands on some cheap WQ prem players who are better than anything the Blues currently have!!!

We need all the strength in depth we can get - and we've only got 1 LH currently.

But this is my point, what is the point in having NWQ players who bring absolutley nothing to the table, I would rather see WQ players do this, if you are going foriegn then get a good one, not somebody with a cool sounding name like Campese Mafu, just because his namesake was world class it doesn't mean he will be.

But people moan like hell when the Blues played Andrews - saying he's pants and never going to be up to standard, and without a platform the Blues can't compete and won't be able to keep hold of their best players.

Yet you want to throw players who are potentially much worse than Andrews in, instead of Barrust (who is a lot better than Andrews), and Mafu, just coz they are WQ?
The Romanians don't really come into it, as they're just on trial and the Blues are having a look at them - just as they've had a look at the WQ players within the region.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Waht I am saying is, that if the players that the Blues scouts have brought in now are rubbish, then they are not doing a good job anyway, weather they find Welsh, Romanian, Fijian or what ever, they are bringing in crap players who are not good enough, they need to work harder in developing their home grown players.

At the risk of prompting another bout of goal post shifting from you, so if the players in the Prem clubs aren't good enough it's the region's fault, even though two minutes ago you reckoned the answer to all of east Wales rugby woes was to rock up to RTB and pluck a couple of world class props out of obscurity? And what has any of this got to do with the Dragons, who have regularly played Parry, Coundly, Buck, Price, Way, and others all from the academy or local prem sides in the front row? You're going to have to start making sense soon D, or people will think you're on a wind up.

I have not mentioned the Dragons on this, I purposley picked out the Blues so that people like you would not think I was picking on the Dragons. So, anyway do you think that there are no young players in the whole of the Blues region that could be as good or better than the two Romanians they are signing ? How as it got to this point where the Blues are looking for Romanian props ? Bare in mind that these two players are currently playing for Bucharest Wolves and Oaks, do you think that they are better than any props from the Welsh prem ? Do you think that the Romanian league is of a higher standard than the Welsh prem ? Out of all the clubs in the Blues catchment area and their own acadamy they could not find any players better than what Romania can produce, I find this a bit far fetched, and this just stregnthens my argument that the regions are not working hard enough around their "REGION".

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:We'd def want to get our hands on some cheap WQ prem players who are better than anything the Blues currently have!!!

We need all the strength in depth we can get - and we've only got 1 LH currently.

But this is my point, what is the point in having NWQ players who bring absolutley nothing to the table, I would rather see WQ players do this, if you are going foriegn then get a good one, not somebody with a cool sounding name like Campese Mafu, just because his namesake was world class it doesn't mean he will be.

But people moan like hell when the Blues played Andrews - saying he's pants and never going to be up to standard, and without a platform the Blues can't compete and won't be able to keep hold of their best players.

Yet you want to throw players who are potentially much worse than Andrews in, instead of Barrust (who is a lot better than Andrews), and Mafu, just coz they are WQ?
The Romanians don't really come into it, as they're just on trial and the Blues are having a look at them - just as they've had a look at the WQ players within the region.

Andrews is a lot better than Mafu, and he is still young, instead of spending money on eastern europeans, spend more money on players like Andrews and get them up to a level we all need them, I remember Adam Jones struggling in his younger days, look at him now.

LD - let me turn this around - why do you think that there are props within the Blues region which haven't yet managed to get into the Blues squad structure which are better than 2 romanians signed on trial only - even though you haven't seen the romanians play, or, presumably, seen these Welsh Prem props you are talking about?

I'll also ask you again to name these Welsh prem props that are apparently better than any NWQ signings? I mean you do definately know they'll be better than the Romanian signings

What is the limit on NWQ players these day, surly Blues must be over the limit if they make these permanant?

I know there were issues in th epast and the WRU did nothing, but everyone seamed to improve, but looks to be a step backward

Well the Blues had Fiilse, Maam Molitka, Tito, Rush, Parks, Lualua, Paterson(?) & Blair last season

They now have Mafu, Borrust, Fiilse, Kyriacou & Patterson I think

Though their website is terrible and still lists Lomu, Gareth Cooper and Craig Quinnell as squad members!!!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The only reason there was a big fanfare surrounding the Blues training in the Rhondda was because it was the first time they'd done it.

The've done training sessions around the region before. Don't let the truth get in the way of your prejudice though.

Kingshu wrote:An intresting thing about the Blues the other week was

They had a higher attendance for the Edinburgh game last year in CCS than this year at CAP!

Just thought it was intresting that there was a big call out for them to move back, but then supporters just drifted off.

Oh Dear! You've not checked your facts!

From the Cardiff Blues website:

Edinburgh 3580 (2011/12) against 7412 (2012/13) an increase of 3832 also the HEC game between the two attracted 6102.

Incidentally the figures for the other games so far this season:


Treviso 4847 (2011/12) against 8138 (2012/13) an increase of 3291
Ulster 8600 (2011/12) against 8217 (2012/13) a decrease of -383 (Both games at CAP)
Glasgow 8198 (2011/12) against 7442 (2012/13) a decrease of -756

So far the increase is 5984 on last season

Front and second rows playing at Pontypridd at the moment:-

Jack Dando - Hooker
Dafydd Davies - Lock
Chris Dicomidis - Hooker
Darren Harris - Hooker
Cory Hill - Lock
Keiron Jenkins - Hooker
Craig Locke - Lock
Pat Palmer - Prop
Chris Phillips - Prop
Scott Roberts - Prop

These are just the players playing for Pontypridd, do not tell me that Romania as more to offer than what is on the Blues doorstep.

Also, why hasn't Gerwyn Price been given a chance ? This gut is an absolute wrecking ball, if the Dragons do not want him, the Blues need forwards let them have him.

Cheers for the stats ALT, good to see decent crowds.

LD - not sure what u proved by listing alll of pontys front 5, especially Cory Hill who already plays for the Blues and competes with other, mostly welsh qualified locks.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Cheers for the stats ALT, good to see decent crowds.

LD - not sure what u proved by listing alll of pontys front 5, especially Cory Hill who already plays for the Blues and competes with other, mostly welsh qualified locks.

My point is, what can young Romanians offer that he cannot ? I just took one club and named their forwards, I choose Ponty as I thought they might be the more recognisable players.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Yup, it really annoyed me about the Blues fans moaning last year that they hated the CCS and that it was difficult to get to (it was a 25min walk from town, with a free regular shuttle bus, good access to the M4, Barry, Penarth and easy to get to from Radyr) and that they would boycott the team until they moved back to CAP -hurting the team hugely, and meaning less than 2,000 Blues fans turned out to see some stalwarts last game - now their back at the CAP (taking a financial hit to leave the CCS), the fans aren't going as their moaning the team is rubbish and money needs to be spent to improve it!

The reason most of us did not support the move were:

We said that the move would alienated many.

We said that we did not fill Cap (12500). So why did we need a 27K stadium?

We said we could not afford to play at CCS.

We said the money spent on the rent would be better spent on players. Pointing to a weakened squad as proof of money being spent in the wrong areas.

We knew that long term the club would bleed cash. It was better that we harm it in the short term to get the dreadful deal stopped ASAP. Now we have done that, recovery can begin. Already the improved cash flow has released money for signings. Richard Holland could see that Thomas sold us a turkey. He moved to sort it out.

Do your research guys.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Cheers for the stats ALT, good to see decent crowds.

LD - not sure what u proved by listing alll of pontys front 5, especially Cory Hill who already plays for the Blues and competes with other, mostly welsh qualified locks.

And Scot Roberts. He's struggled at regional level so far.

It allientated a lot from Cardiff yes but they are supposed to be a Region. Maybe the board thought that by moving it away from the CAP it may go some way to bridging the gap.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Waht I am saying is, that if the players that the Blues scouts have brought in now are rubbish, then they are not doing a good job anyway, weather they find Welsh, Romanian, Fijian or what ever, they are bringing in crap players who are not good enough, they need to work harder in developing their home grown players.

At the risk of prompting another bout of goal post shifting from you, so if the players in the Prem clubs aren't good enough it's the region's fault, even though two minutes ago you reckoned the answer to all of east Wales rugby woes was to rock up to RTB and pluck a couple of world class props out of obscurity? And what has any of this got to do with the Dragons, who have regularly played Parry, Coundly, Buck, Price, Way, and others all from the academy or local prem sides in the front row? You're going to have to start making sense soon D, or people will think you're on a wind up.

I have not mentioned the Dragons on this, I purposley picked out the Blues so that people like you would not think I was picking on the Dragons. So, anyway do you think that there are no young players in the whole of the Blues region that could be as good or better than the two Romanians they are signing ? How as it got to this point where the Blues are looking for Romanian props ? Bare in mind that these two players are currently playing for Bucharest Wolves and Oaks, do you think that they are better than any props from the Welsh prem ? Do you think that the Romanian league is of a higher standard than the Welsh prem ? Out of all the clubs in the Blues catchment area and their own acadamy they could not find any players better than what Romania can produce, I find this a bit far fetched, and this just stregnthens my argument that the regions are not working hard enough around their "REGION".

Firstly LD, are the Blues sending scouts to Romania? I'm yet to read anything on that but would happily be guided in the right direction to the article.

As for props, well they have Scott Andrews. Have you seen how pis poor he has been in his rugby career? There's Trevett, Filise, the lad from Cardiff Uni, Mafu and Bourrust on their books. So things aren't looking great in that department. For the record I think the Blues best and strongest front row is Trevett/Ma'afu, Kyricauo, Bourrust. Are the Blues really going to be scouting up Ebbw Vale or are they going to be concentrating on the academy players they have fed into the Premiership teams? THey have two, but essentially it is just one. Pontypridd do nothing for the development of any young players or former academy players. Take a look at the players of Cardiff RFC and Ponty. Cardiff are brimming with current and former U20 players, it makes up the majority of their team. Pontypridd just recruit local old-heads that are popular amongst the community.

Another question. Why do you support the Ospreys? Are they doing much for Merthyr? I wouldn't have thought so. The people up there should stop living in denial and just admit they are supporting the 'glamour region'. Makes the 'disenfranchised' arguement dissolve a bit though.

The Blues team is now paying the price for the CCS move, the on pitch talent had to be released in order for the move back, Jenkins, Thomas, Yapp, although were taking criticism at the time are now being missed, Rees also!!

It'll take the Blues 3 seasons to get straight after the damage of the move was done, sadly it looks like Cuthbert, Roberts and 1/2p will all of sailed on to bigger and better by then, so the long term damage of the move may take a generation of players to recover from.

We may be looking at another 5 seasons of clubmen, NWQ mediocrity and pee poor play... Don't expect the crowds to flock yet!!!

Also regarding the quality so far, I have been a firm beleiver that competition breeds competition. Isolating the game in Wales into 4 cities (and lets be honest thats what we've done) and the aboloshing any quality from the prem has conjured an atmosphere where if your half decent your in the in crowd and if your not you are playing dross week in week out alongside a full time job. This wouldn't be all bad but this happens at the age of 15/16, selection happens too early, the talent pool robbed of the cream and left to rot!!

IMO a full prof prem gives the age grade players far more opportunities to shine against stronger opposition week in week out, and thats before playing prem rugby. Each prem team could conceivably have an academy (allbeit some on shoestring budgets) and the talent pool would be 10 times the size it is now with far greater strength.

abolishing the quality from the Prem?

Lyndon Lewis, head coach of Llandovery RFC will firmly disagree with you there.

Are you telling me RD that the prem now is stronger than it was pre regional level???

Ive watched a lot of prem the last few seasons and it's simple, there are development teams, there are teams who look to aid development alongside being competitive and there are teams who want to win, but of all 3 types none are much good. There used to be derbies of the highest quality, I recently saw the Cardiff Newport 'derby' and I might as well have gone to my local park and watched U14's!!!

Yep, Lyndon Lewis made very clear examples of how if the Prem wasn't up to a high standard, then players wouldn't be in a position to make the step up to regional, and even international level within a season (both George North and Adam Warren have achieved both).

From Llandovery, Keiran Murphy and Adam Warren have moved up to regional level with ease, earning MotM awards in their first competative Scarlets starts.

Jordan Williams and Samson Lee have both achieved the same accolade in making the step up this season.

If they levels of skill and fitness and physicality weren't there in the Prem, how on earth would that be possible?

RD

Being part of the junior system I can tell you the skill, fitness and Physicality are certainly not provided by the prem in any way shape or form!!!

At the age of 13 there are regional 'development programmes'
14 is Dewar sheild competition inter regional comps
15 is regional U16 level (Including profiling for SnC, lifestyle awareness)
16 you are either selected at U18 (elite) or U17 (development) All boys enter an approved college setting ie Cross keys college for the Dragons. boys.
18 is Academy junior/senior depending on your abilities, Daily SnC, regular matches and recovery, nutrition/hydration etc...

The senior academy can last 3 years and then, maybe then the boys will be considered for senior rugby (unless they show huge abilities)

There is a period before the boys can step up to regional rugby, but have outgrown youth rugby where they basically play prem rugby to stay active kinda thing until they have developed enough to make the step.

So IMO the prem is a warming league where the younger players play before they are physically ready for regional rugby, prem clubs have no say in regional prospects in most cases, and the contact they have with them is already pre determined!!!

No offence Bluesman, but I think I will believe a headcoach who I interviewed who lives and breaths the Prem week in week out, who told me exactly what input and contact he has with the region he's involved in

Theres no offence taken mate, but I have witnessed rollockings to prem coaches by dev officers who have specific designs for players, infact dev officers in the dragons region were prem coaches until recently, or should I say they are prem coaches of sorts now too.

He probably has had lots of contact, in the scarlets explaining to him what they are doing with their prospects and how he can help that.

Remember mate your talking to a head coach receiving a lot of credit for his teams performances this season (and righfully so) but he also isn't going to ship the development of the quality of his players on to the guys who toil week in week out to actually produce the player for him to coach.

If your telling me however that the int prospects currently playing for Llandovery (or being loaned to Llandovery) are under his care and he decides their best course then you are wrong or he is deluded! I have no doubt that the 'best of the rest' are his to do with as he please (to a very limited degree) but the 'prospects' I am talking about are Scarlet property first and foremost, that I found out the hard way up in Llandovery last season!!!

Suggest you read the interview with him.

Simon Easterby and Garan Evans have weekly contact with the club. Drovers themselves if they feel a player is performing well will direct the Scarlets' attention to them (as they did with Adam Warren and Keiran Murphy). Tis a two way street see, exactly how a region and the feeder club should work

Lyndon Lewis was also the backs coach at Llandovery before he became head coach there two seasons ago, and he spoke highly of the entire coaching staff they have in place, do think your talks of delusion are a bit out of order

LordDowlais wrote:Also, why hasn't Gerwyn Price been given a chance ? This gut is an absolute wrecking ball, if the Dragons do not want him, the Blues need forwards let them have him.

I really wanted him to be given a shot after last season, but you can't say he hasn't been. He was invited to train with the Dragons. Plus Crosskeys aren't exactly helping his chances by playing him at 7

Of course they have regular contact, the prospects I talk of are constantly under review, and why wouldn't the Scarlets want Llandovery complimenting everything the Scarlets do in way of developing players?!

And of course coaches always recomend players to their regions (not always succesfully, infact not very often succesfully)

I actua;ly like the set up the Scarlets have with Llandovery, they are working like a well oiled machine the way it should be done (well from what Ive seen from the outside) and the llandovery setup and pitch are cracking, lovely place to visit (results seem to go our way regularly for some reason)

My point is, and I get the feeling we are just out of synch with each other here, the development pathways are put in place by the WRU, enforced by the regions who put their own slant on them, and then employed by the regions using tools such as inter regional competitiions, freindlies and the prem. At no point does a region allow a prospect to undergo anyone elses SnC programmes (not already UKSCA adhered to, and put in place by the region), skill aqcuisition programmes (not particularly appliable here as attention turns to performance before the prem stage)

Anyway my point is each region has 30 or so prospects per age grade, of which they keep close tabs on and are very posessive of, hence my comment the cream is selected at an early age, and anyone else left to rot, by rot I mean those who either weren't good enough for the regional admission, or those ejected from it. These are the players that eventually move to prem status but are a mile behind prospects because of all the extra training and specialist work they get.

I'm waffling a little now but my general point is I have no doubt Lewis does what he wants with Llandovery boys, but Scarlet prospects (especially ones with U16 and U20 status (Lee)) are specifically scarlet prospects and the prem has little if anything to do with their development.

Ps the deluded remark may have been out of line but in reality show me someone involved with the game in South wales who isn't...

Bluesman what are you getting at, that it is wrong to use the Premiership as a development arena and stepping stone to professional rugby? If so, then my next question is; Why?

The Prem is where they get the game time tho bluesman. It's there they develop week in week out, otherwise they'd be on the sidelines rotting. THe Prem is absolutely vital to developing regional prospects and it has to be at a high standard in order for the step up to be made easily. My examples of Llandovery and Llanelli players making that step up, and making it well, is a clear sign that standards are high enough in the Prem for development to be working.

Who said it's wrong?

It's the natural next step before regional rugby, but IMO the prem is nowhere near high enough quality to provide young players with the tools they need to make the step.

I want a fully prof prem with each club having their own academies, not just basic junior systems run on a shoe string by the local dads.

I want the prem to be regional standard (maybe a little impossibly) but the higher the standard the pre the higher quality depth we have in wales.

Don't you agree?

SO despite giving you examples of players who have clearly developed to a high enough standard in the Prem to make the step up with ease to the regions, you are still saying it's nowhere near high enough quality??

RD

Show me how the prem helped Lee bacome an U16 and U20 international?

THe Prem is absolutely vital to developing regional prospects and it has to be at a high standard in order for the step up to be made easily.

^^^
This is the key statement, but in reality how oftern do players who are not involved with the regions at age grade level (from the age of 13, and elite from 15) make any sort of step up???

It doesn't happen, meaning the regions are developing the players and the prem is a warming station until full maturity or SnC programmes get them to a point where they can play regional rugby.

IMO when prem clubs start producing players off their own backs, or when players get given the tools not previously aqcuired by age grade to step up to regional rugby then the prem will be a development tool worth talking about.

rugbydreamer wrote:Yep, Lyndon Lewis made very clear examples of how if the Prem wasn't up to a high standard, then players wouldn't be in a position to make the step up to regional, and even international level within a season (both George North and Adam Warren have achieved both).

From Llandovery, Keiran Murphy and Adam Warren have moved up to regional level with ease, earning MotM awards in their first competative Scarlets starts.

Jordan Williams and Samson Lee have both achieved the same accolade in making the step up this season.

If they levels of skill and fitness and physicality weren't there in the Prem, how on earth would that be possible?

I agree with your comments above, another example is D Waters who joined the Dragons from Pontypridd, he fitted in without any problem he even turned in a MOTM award. You could look at it another way, the regional teams are not much better than the prem teams hence why are the regional players paid so much, I am not sure how much better the Blues and Dragons are currently than the top three Prem teams and they are paid peanuts £100k compared with £3.5m? An example is the Dragons V a limited combined Gwent side preseason with the Dragons playing at home. Again the Dragons could take the result as a positive in that they have strength in depth but results suggest they are both weak.

Bluesman, going back to what you said for a moment; "Anyway my point is each region has 30 or so prospects per age grade, of which they keep close tabs on and are very posessive of, hence my comment the cream is selected at an early age, and anyone else left to rot, by rot I mean those who either weren't good enough for the regional admission, or those ejected from it. These are the players that eventually move to prem status but are a mile behind prospects because of all the extra training and specialist work they get.

I'm waffling a little now but my general point is I have no doubt Lewis does what he wants with Llandovery boys, but Scarlet prospects (especially ones with U16 and U20 status (Lee)) are specifically scarlet prospects and the prem has little if anything to do with their development." A good point but not wholly accurate. It is true that some academy products don't always progress but the ones still playing rugby aren't always hung out to dry. I know a few who have actually stayed on with Premiership clubs for a while. It makes sense for the clubs to recruit players who have experienced professional training I guess. Otherwise they go to the likes of Ebbw Vale, Penallta, Tonmawr (who pay players), the level below the WP and can work their way up again if good enough.

Scarlets defintely seem as if they have the best relationship with their clubs. They have done a fair bit for the development for guys like Lee, Murphy, etc; but what the clubs are giving them is regular rugby of a good standard.

I'm not for the professional premiership, I don't see how that works, but perhaps the clubs could have some youth teams that are treated like U16 A teams. It seems to me that the semi-pro premiership has improved year on year since the Regions were formed.

Lets take Steffan Jones as another example...

In the Dragons age grade system until they decided he wasn't going to make it. He went back to Bargoad where performances were so good they couldn't ignore him, so what did they do? Did they give him to a prem team to develop?

NO, they brought him straight back into the dragons set up, put him on a specific development programme and he broke into the first team very very quickly. Would you say Bargoed were high enough quality to produce regional players?

I am not sure how much better the Blues and Dragons are currently than the top three Prem teams

Glam have to agree with that, but IMO thats not highlighting the strength of the prem but the weakness's of the regions!!

Morg

Don't get me wrong the door is always open, but the ratio of returnees is tiny in comparison, and those who do return to regional rugby don't always do so through the prem. Like I said Steffan Jones as an example.

I seem to be arguing on all fronts here but my main points stay the same, regions develop the players first and foremost, the prem is a tool of that, but IMO the prem is more of a warming station than a development tool at present due to it's lack of competitiveness, quality and again IMO professionalism!!