Regions at lowest point

First topic message reminder :

Surely I can't be the only fan of regional rugby to be feeling really down on the state we're all in. Before I know this wont go down well with Scarlets and O's fans, as they really are making the best of what they've got. My biggest worry is the standard of rugby on display. I attended the Dragons v Blues game and not only were they the weakest sides I've seen from these regions, the standard of play was appalling. Even Blues fans stood near me were commenting at how dire their side is, so what does that say about the Dragons?? I dont want to rubbish my region as I'm passionate about them, but the display on Friday was a complete embarrassment. Look at the Blues, getting thumped at home on consecutive weekends.
For me, I think that in Wales, we have several world class players, some very good players and below that, there is a big drop-off in standards. We have very little depth and it makes me wonder when people want a 5th region!! How poor would they be?
I watched the game on Friday and thought to myself that I hope Toby Faletau leaves the Dragons. If he stays at the Dragons he could well lose his welsh place. He's such a talent that he deserves so much better and I've no doubt that he and Lydiate will have no option other than to go go.
I take my hat off to the Scarlets. A few seasons ago they were the 4th placed region. They've turned that on it's head and how? Not by splashing cash, but by bringing through what seems like an endless amount of talent.
You know that by the end of the season, in the Rabies league, the 3 Irish provinces will be in the play-offs with 1 other from Wales or Scotland. The regions simply cannot compete in Europe. Not one will get into the quarters and yet Wales are grand slam winners!! Not that many players have gone abroad.
With the standard being so poor, attendances will surely decrease even further, yet Wales will sell-out for the autumn tests. I'd love to see the regions given more money to attract bigger names. That's the difference with the regions and the rest of Europe. I would like to see a limit on overseas players though to stop gross being brought in. But what would people rather, a successful national team or successful regions? Why can't we have both?
The national coaches must love seeing the youngsters blooded in the Rabies, but it doesn't bring success and only attracts die-hard followers. I watched the Gloucester v Bath Aviva game yesterday and was jealous. Jealous that there was a big derby, a packed house, two quality sides, high intensity and kicked off on a Saturday afternoon. What incentive was there for me to attend the Scarlets game on Friday? I couldn't possibly make a 7.05 KO on a Friday, but if I could, I'd have to be mad to go and watch that performance.
On a side-note. Just how bad is Sean Holley on Scrum V? Terrible!

Bedford

The first argument Ive heard that I hadn't considered. Maybe the regions have contributed to the int performances, or maybe that can be attributed to the eventual introduction of professionalism? the restructuring of the England and Frnace national teams who lets face it have both failed to do anything for the last 7/8 years? or maybe Gatland and his methods are to be given all the credit?

I suppose at this stage we will never know, but my points are regarding the club game in wales and less so the int stage.

Blues,

Surely though they go hand in hand, unlike in football the clubs/regions in all countries have been there to aid not hinder the National side.

I know that has changed to a degree since professionalisn due to money men wanting something back for their investment.

I sat through most of the 80s and 90s in utter despair at the state of the National side when we had clubs and now I have been lucky enough to see 3 Slams and have even travelled to Twickenham with confidence.

I have always said the Regions were cobbled together and there is alot still wrong with them but as I said earlier I think going back to clubs would be a bigger backward step

Even professional clubs run by the right people who wouldn't just employ their freinds???

Professional clubs with individual identities?

Each bringing through talent through indipendant academies?

All being competitive week in week out?

Am I just being a supreme optimist, or idealist??? I just refuse to beleive so...

Blues,

I just think this is one post that could and probably will rumble on and on with everyone thinking their view is correct.

You are correct in that a lot of identities have been lost but then again when I am home on the right side of the bridge I try to combine it s that Ebbw and the Dragons are both home. That way I support my team and region so the identities are still there.

The Regions have brought talent through their academies and whilst I know thgings not right at any of them I just think our money and talent would again be spread to thinly if went back to clubs.

Part of the issues I have with the regions is that for every kid selected at elite level there is one overlooked, or not able to contribute due to travel etc...

Selection is a massive lottery, much more so than anybody would like to agree with, but Ive seen literally hundreds of possibles told they never will

I followed Newport from the late 80's through until the regions were brought in and although I dont see the need for clubs to be brought in, I do miss a he'll of a lot from the club game. For me the biggest problem is the standard of competitions. I know that even when the clubs were still going, we had the Celtic league, but I do really miss the amount of rivalries and being able to watch rugby on a Saturday afternoon. We have a poor Rabo league that only creates interest for the die-hard fan. The LV Cup?!?! Do me a favour! Unused to love a good cup run. Travelling to a small ground. I'd be more excited watching the Dragons face Dunvant than I would seeing us play 3 group games that the English clubs use to give their 2nd string a game!
I loved the European weekend last week. Sky's coverage is superb and you know thatall teams take it seriously and are in it to win it. Just look at the opening weekend in The Rabies league. Leinster shipping 7 tries to The Scarlets, who pick up 5 points!! It makes a mockery and devalues the competition. Look at how Edinburg used the league last year. That's why attendances are so poor. Who wants to go and watch the Dragons play Glasgow at 5pm on a Sunday??? Not me. Even with my season ticket!!!
The trouble is that even though we've had Grand Slams and the WRU are coining it in. We still don't seem to be in a position of power when it comes to club rugby. How great would a British league be? You could put The Dragons in the 3rd division with the likes of Connacht, Bristol and Sale. At least wed know it would be competitive with promotion and delegation. It'd be great to see the English and welsh teams playing each other. I can't wait to see Leicester v Ospreys and how good was The Sale v Blues game? The Dragons travel to Bath in the LV in 3 weeks. I'm thinking of going, but not for the rugby, but that's more of a social. I know the rugby will be poor!

mog,

I agree about the ko times and Sunday games should be banned full stop, but I can understand the Friday and Saturday evening games.

Having friends and family way down west I know they find it nigh on impossible to get to PYS for a Friday night game but on the flip side it does give people the chance to support their Region on a Friday/Saturday evening then their club side on a Saturday afternoon

thebluesmancometh wrote:Morg
I havn't slammed central contracts, Ive always maintained they would be part of a prof prem, top 30 players possibly 2/3 per team. I have slated the way they are about to be doled by the WRU mind.

I've still heard nothing to state that a fully prof prem couldn't work.

RE the reasoning behind not being competitive in europe...

Scarlets just got smashed
Blues lost to the worst team in England
Dragons got pounded by a very average Wasps

Not to mention the Blues getting demolished by Ulster, Dragons smashed and Ospreys beaten by Italian club and Scottish clubs at home.

In what way are the regions hugely competitive against european teams now?

Yeah you're right, you may have just slammed them in that sense. I can't really remember.

You've heard nothing about why your Prem couldn't work apart from what everyone has said, the comments you keep dismissing as regurgitated nonsense.

And it's only been one round so far, why not wait until the end of the competition? Ospreys could beat Leciester and Toulouse. Scarlets could beat Leinster and Clermont (at home). And I think whoever said they were competitive referred to the past 5 or 6 years maybe. I don't see clubs being better, I see them being a lot worse as they'd be without the best welsh players, short of money to attract quality from overseas and the best players would be spread out across 12 poor teams. The like of Toulouse and Leinster don't become giants with just one or two decent players do they?

The 'regional' format is the best route, it just needs many adjustments which could happen gradually. I think having some four A teams that compete in the B&I cup would be a good start. The semi-pro Premiership still remains but has a break during this cup competition. Perhaps the Prem teams could also have youth teams coached by the Welsh prem coaches. If everything is geared towards improving the 4 Regions then they'll get better. And so should the National team which is priority number one for me.

But the standard in the prem is way too poor, why will people pay to watch that when they could hit their local club for free.

PS the Sale Blues game wasn't good for Blues fans!!!

For some the prem is their local club

Morg

Are you still on about the clubs being worse than the regions are now? How many times have I said of course they will be initially!!!

My whole argument is based around the idea that the welsh prem has to start somewhere, probably in the dulldrums when it comes to europe, but we have to aim for a domestic product similar to the Aviva or T14, otherwise we will always be at the mercy of the money men, and the celtic nations to back our ideas.

We have followed an Irish infrastructure that only works for them because of the regional structure of Ireland, the commonalities of their 2 leading games, and the history and tradition of the country, it is clearly not going to work for us.

How many prem games have you payed 8-10 pounds to go to watch recently???

The 'die-hards' will always pay to see their local club. And if it goes the way I suggest it goes then locals might be interested in seeing where potential internationals start their rugby. The clubs could even depend on donations from fans similar to another that was proposed i:e, the Valleys Rugby charity.

Bluesman, what Italian CLUB and Scottish CLUBS have beaten the Ospreys at HOME this season?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Morg

Are you still on about the clubs being worse than the regions are now? How many times have I said of course they will be initially!!!

My whole argument is based around the idea that the welsh prem has to start somewhere, probably in the dulldrums when it comes to europe, but we have to aim for a domestic product similar to the Aviva or T14, otherwise we will always be at the mercy of the money men, and the celtic nations to back our ideas.

We have followed an Irish infrastructure that only works for them because of the regional structure of Ireland, the commonalities of their 2 leading games, and the history and tradition of the country, it is clearly not going to work for us.

I haven't stated that, but yes the clubs are worse than the regions are now. But have the clubs ever done better or performed better than the 4 teams? No. I don't see where. Condensing the resources has kept internationals in Wales for most of their careers and has made us have 4 teams on a level(ish) playing field in Europe. Pro-Clubs would not have achieved any of this if they were still here.

I don't think we'll agree. Not many will agree with you. The best model for Wales is probably in between the Ireland model and NZ model.

GLASGOW!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:GLASGOW!!!

So NO Italian team and only 1 Scottish, your whole argument is exactly the same. Without Foundation.

Your right, the clubs being run as they were would never have been competitive.

And your right the regions have kept the best players in wales but can't you see how that is a short term fix. We are now losing those internationals, and younger up and comers have left, ie Mitchell, Roberts etc. and I can only foresee more and more leaving unless we can find something to offer that other clubs can't.

I do find it frustrating that The Dragons are always under the floodlights. Look at the Aviva. Saturday afternoon kick-offs and great crowds. Even with a few being broadcast live on tv.The dragons must play at most twice a season on a Saturday afternoon. I go back to the issue of just how good is the competition the regions play in? For me, kick-off times are only a slight problem. I think that the regions are gonna be in for a big shock come Easter, when their expected 50,000 fans don't turn up at the Millenium. Why would I want to pay £25 to watch a Dragons home game in the stadium, followed by 2 other regions facing off? I'll watch the Dragons and then go to the pub!

Treviso beat them in Treviso, and Glasgow beat them at the liberty! That was what I said!!

Are you really that petty to call on my grammer?! come on!

Blues,

With the exception of Mitchell who still has it to prove, all the others are getting towards end of carear.

Which Roberts you on about?

Martyn, the guy playing great stuff at Northampton. Then theres Brew playing really well in France, Phillips, Hook!!! None of these players are coming to the end.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Treviso beat them in Treviso, and Glasgow beat them at the liberty! That was what I said!!

Are you really that petty to call on my grammer?! come on!

You said Italian club and Scottish clubs at home

Can't believe the optimism for the regions in the HC! The Ospreys play Leicester and Toulouse twice in the next 3. The Scarlets play Leinster and Exeter twice and The Blues play Toulon and Montpellier twice. Theyll be all out by Christmas! As for The Dragons. Just thankful for good old Mogliano. We'll make them look like right mugs!

get a life wayne!

mog couldn't agree more mate, it's depressing!

Was Roberts or Brew really established internationals though, will take your point on Phillips and Hook though again a lot would argue Phillips shouldn't start and Hook has never cemmented a starting slot.

No but Brew was on the fringes and Roberts not quite there (although IMO I think he should make the AI squad)

But my point is Cuthbert has all but left the blues, Roberts has spoken about playing abroad and Lydiate and Falatau can only put up with so much

Bluesman, I've got a fine life thank you, this whole thread and mainly your contribution to it is laughable if it wasn't so serious for Welsh Rugby, you said in an earlier post that you have seen hundreds of players discarded that would have been picked up if there were a 12 team premiership, you do realise surely that in my Region (Ospreys) there are 4 Development Officers Bridgend,Afan Nedd,Port Talbot Swansea with about 4 staff each with access to Physiological, Nutritional and Performance experts from the Regions all under the auspices and control by a team from the WRU headed by Joe Lydon. I cann't vouch for the other Regions. Also there are 4 Colleges in the 4 main towns already mentioned that come under the same umbrella, if you think that 12 clubs could give the same level of expertise as displayed here you are living in cloud cuckoo land, and I doubt very much that you would need the fingers of more than 1 hand for the number of players that have slipped through our net (Ospreys).

manofgwent wrote:Can't believe the optimism for the regions in the HC! The Ospreys play Leicester and Toulouse twice in the next 3. The Scarlets play Leinster and Exeter twice and The Blues play Toulon and Montpellier twice. Theyll be all out by Christmas! As for The Dragons. Just thankful for good old Mogliano. We'll make them look like right mugs!

Cheers MOG

Last time we read this kind of pessimism from you we got to the Semis of the RWC...!

Keep up the good work mate.

Who was being optimistic about the Welsh in Europe this year? Outside of maestegmafia I can't pinpoint who.

Despite the idea of 12 fully pro teams being a nonsense, their is a lot of sense in Blues model. The Rabo doesn't work for the regions. The amount of money being wasted simply on fulfilling fixtures half way across Europe is ridiculous, and doesn't help with away travel. Our model is currently too much like the Irish one and not enough like NZ.

If we withdrew from the Rabo and restructured the way players are paid we could easily solve a few problems. I'd contract each player into a fully pro Prem of 8 teams initially, so that each player gets a basic wage. These teams enter the league and Welsh Cup. I would then do as Blues suggests and call up players from the Region for an inter-regional comp and the HC, with a top up for those called into the Squad. You could add additional tiers for those playing on development contracts/lv cup etc and a further top up would come in from the WRU if players are called up for international duty. The four regions would have more money, there would be plenty of matches for the elite players, and the club prem would be strengthened by those not on regional duty. Essentially this would be about replacing some of the meaningless Rabo fixtures with matches in a strengthened Prem, and banking the saving made from getting out of our daft league structure.

bedfordwelsh wrote:mog,

I agree about the ko times and Sunday games should be banned full stop, but I can understand the Friday and Saturday evening games.

Having friends and family way down west I know they find it nigh on impossible to get to PYS for a Friday night game but on the flip side it does give people the chance to support their Region on a Friday/Saturday evening then their club side on a Saturday afternoon

I got to be honest it is a nightmare trying to knock off work and then get up to PYS on time for kick-off on a Friday night, and when we have these bleeding thursday games (not often) in the LV= (or re-scheduled matches) it is almost impossible. That said I know a few blokes who are nvolved with local sides who are moaning like hell tha tgames should be played only in the evenings as the local sides play on Saturday afternoons, and the kids teams play on Sundays.

Saturday 18:00 is the ideal time for professional rugby matches.

Friday - come in home after work and relax

Saturday - go out and playing your game at 14:00, you'll be done by 16:00 and the team get the bus down to the stadium which in south wales won't be too far away. Enjoy the evening game - still early enough to bring kids to the match.

Sunday - kids rugby matches on Sunday morning

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:mog,

I agree about the ko times and Sunday games should be banned full stop, but I can understand the Friday and Saturday evening games.

Having friends and family way down west I know they find it nigh on impossible to get to PYS for a Friday night game but on the flip side it does give people the chance to support their Region on a Friday/Saturday evening then their club side on a Saturday afternoon

I got to be honest it is a nightmare trying to knock off work and then get up to PYS on time for kick-off on a Friday night, and when we have these bleeding thursday games (not often) in the LV= (or re-scheduled matches) it is almost impossible. That said I know a few blokes who are nvolved with local sides who are moaning like hell tha tgames should be played only in the evenings as the local sides play on Saturday afternoons, and the kids teams play on Sundays.

SS,

I agree and thats point, with carefully arranged kick off times you could support your local club and Region, if the Regions kicked off at 2/3 O'Clock then it would hamper a lot of getting to the games who play for local/prem clubs but like you said and I know, its hard slog getting down from say Milford or H'West for a friday game.

red_stag wrote:Saturday 18:00 is the ideal time for professional rugby matches.

Friday - come in home after work and relax

Saturday - go out and playing your game at 14:00, you'll be done by 16:00 and the team get the bus down to the stadium which in south wales won't be too far away. Enjoy the evening game - still early enough to bring kids to the match.

Sunday - kids rugby matches on Sunday morning

Yes it would be. That way I could happily play for or watch one of my regional clubs, then go down to watch my region. That said, it'll never happen too often due to the Beeb's coverage.

Being someone who played in the late 60s and early 70s, watched Bridgend, London Welsh and Neath in the 70s and 80s, very disillusioned in the 90s and after illness and injuries in the 00s started supporting the Ospreys, I think I've been to all the extremes and everything in between, in my rugby existence, to think we can go back to anything above 4 proper and a development region in Wales is beyond ridiculous. IMO the development region should be where it is being brought along at the moment North Wales. To think either the WRU or new benefactors or a combination of the both can be found to fund these new Clubs, Regions are as I stated above. To enlighten a few, Mike Cuddy has never been 1 of the main benefactors at the Ospreys, also mentioned on this thread is that the Ospreys let Craig Mitchell go, not true, he left at the end of his contract and the reason for him going is that he wanted first team rugby, which he was obviously not going to get with Adam around, as for televising games are concerned this could be settled very soon, if the PRL get their way BT will get the HC and Aviva games possibly if Sky want to stay in Rugby they well might put in an offer for Rabo games and far less could be televised, which IMO is one of the main reasons for low attendances, another reason for these low figures are as stated above some ridiculous kick off times. There was a Q&A session with I believe Roger Blyth and Andrew Hore in the off season and they were asked about these kick off times and they said BBC and S4C would not even talk about changing their schedules, if Sky became involved perhaps more reasonable KO times could be brought in.

I don't think Sky and reasonable go together - Scottish football were being under-represented/paid by them so they went to Sentanta who promptly went bust, so they had to go back to Sky, who gave them such a poor deal that many clubs are folding in Scotland now.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I don't think Sky and reasonable go together - Scottish football were being under-represented/paid by them so they went to Sentanta who promptly went bust, so they had to go back to Sky, who gave them such a poor deal that many clubs are folding in Scotland now.

There's the difference SS when Setanta went bust Sky had no opposition, in our case they would have BBC,S4C ALBA and possibly the Irish Channels. Is it RTE?

I think that regions provinces etc should do everything in thier power to avoid Sat 1-5 kick off times, as this time should be for the feeder clubs, and they don't what to compete with each other.

For teams in Big population areas. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff Friday night kick offs should be fine (of course not for all supporters but most). The more rural teams, Sat evening kick offs wouold be better, and no Sunday games.

Alot of people bemoan the fri kick off but I and many love them, (OK 7.05 is a bit early 7:30 or 8 would be better) but its leave work, and walk to ravenhill for me, maybe even time for a quick jar on the way.

That's true I suppose - but I would still expect them to be just as awkward/unwieldy with the kick off times than BBC/S4C et al - though they'd probably give a lot more money for the priviledge.

A lot of people dislike Sunday games (and I can understand why) but for me as long as they are at 1-5pm then their great as I can guarentee I can get to them, and as long as I don't drink too much (and I don't usually at rugby games) then there's no worry with having work the next day.

Kings,

I agree and certainly the Regions should look at the area they are supposed to cover abd to utmost to make kick off times accessable to all.

Like you said most of the Blues and Dragons fans could make a 7 30 ko on a Friday but when you bear in mind the Scarlets cover right the way down to Milford and Fishguard etc its nigh on impossible to make a Friday evening kick off

Bedford its even worse for the Scarlets fans in Lampeter and even Aberystwyth.

EDIT: should also note for the Dragons - I can't imagine it's much fun getting from Abergavenny to the Dave and back on a Friday night.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:That's true I suppose - but I would still expect them to be just as awkward/unwieldy with the kick off times than BBC/S4C et al - though they'd probably give a lot more money for the priviledge.

Why would they do that when at the moment they televise the Aviva mainly on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

I don't know just a feeling I guess and the way they televise the football at lots of different days times so they can fit as many games as possible in.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Bedford its even worse for the Scarlets fans in Lampeter and even Aberystwyth.

EDIT: should also note for the Dragons - I can't imagine it's much fun getting from Abergavenny to the Dave and back on a Friday night.

Yeah agree Priest was just using that area as have friends n family that way and know they struggle.

Kingshu wrote:I think that regions provinces etc should do everything in thier power to avoid Sat 1-5 kick off times, as this time should be for the feeder clubs, and they don't what to compete with each other.

For teams in Big population areas. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff Friday night kick offs should be fine (of course not for all supporters but most). The more rural teams, Sat evening kick offs wouold be better, and no Sunday games.

Alot of people bemoan the fri kick off but I and many love them, (OK 7.05 is a bit early 7:30 or 8 would be better) but its leave work, and walk to ravenhill for me, maybe even time for a quick jar on the way.

Kingshu, I said in my earlier post about playing in the 60s and 70s, my local 1st class team were Bridgend and the only time I had a chance to watch them in a meaningful game was the night before Internationals, we played and they did at the same time, I believe the premier team should play at the premier time that is 2.30 -3.00 on a Saturday afternoon

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Bedford its even worse for the Scarlets fans in Lampeter and even Aberystwyth.

EDIT: should also note for the Dragons - I can't imagine it's much fun getting from Abergavenny to the Dave and back on a Friday night.

Yeah agree Priest was just using that area as have friends n family that way and know they struggle.

Its not to bad with trains every 20 minutes or so, from Ebbw is bit more diffiuclt as ther train from there not go to Newport direct

wayne wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I think that regions provinces etc should do everything in thier power to avoid Sat 1-5 kick off times, as this time should be for the feeder clubs, and they don't what to compete with each other.

For teams in Big population areas. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff Friday night kick offs should be fine (of course not for all supporters but most). The more rural teams, Sat evening kick offs wouold be better, and no Sunday games.

Alot of people bemoan the fri kick off but I and many love them, (OK 7.05 is a bit early 7:30 or 8 would be better) but its leave work, and walk to ravenhill for me, maybe even time for a quick jar on the way.

Kingshu, I said in my earlier post about playing in the 60s and 70s, my local 1st class team were Bridgend and the only time I had a chance to watch them in a meaningful game was the night before Internationals, we played and they did at the same time, I believe the premier team should play at the premier time that is 2.30 -3.00 on a Saturday afternoon

If the regions all played on Saturday afternoons, when you the local sides play? Would you want them to be playing on firday nights and sundays?

SS, when Bridgend and Llanelli RFC played in the 1960s,70s, 80s at 2.30-3.00 on a Saturday afternoon at what time on what day did Pontycymmer (my club) and Cefneithin play?