Regions at lowest point

First topic message reminder :

Surely I can't be the only fan of regional rugby to be feeling really down on the state we're all in. Before I know this wont go down well with Scarlets and O's fans, as they really are making the best of what they've got. My biggest worry is the standard of rugby on display. I attended the Dragons v Blues game and not only were they the weakest sides I've seen from these regions, the standard of play was appalling. Even Blues fans stood near me were commenting at how dire their side is, so what does that say about the Dragons?? I dont want to rubbish my region as I'm passionate about them, but the display on Friday was a complete embarrassment. Look at the Blues, getting thumped at home on consecutive weekends.
For me, I think that in Wales, we have several world class players, some very good players and below that, there is a big drop-off in standards. We have very little depth and it makes me wonder when people want a 5th region!! How poor would they be?
I watched the game on Friday and thought to myself that I hope Toby Faletau leaves the Dragons. If he stays at the Dragons he could well lose his welsh place. He's such a talent that he deserves so much better and I've no doubt that he and Lydiate will have no option other than to go go.
I take my hat off to the Scarlets. A few seasons ago they were the 4th placed region. They've turned that on it's head and how? Not by splashing cash, but by bringing through what seems like an endless amount of talent.
You know that by the end of the season, in the Rabies league, the 3 Irish provinces will be in the play-offs with 1 other from Wales or Scotland. The regions simply cannot compete in Europe. Not one will get into the quarters and yet Wales are grand slam winners!! Not that many players have gone abroad.
With the standard being so poor, attendances will surely decrease even further, yet Wales will sell-out for the autumn tests. I'd love to see the regions given more money to attract bigger names. That's the difference with the regions and the rest of Europe. I would like to see a limit on overseas players though to stop gross being brought in. But what would people rather, a successful national team or successful regions? Why can't we have both?
The national coaches must love seeing the youngsters blooded in the Rabies, but it doesn't bring success and only attracts die-hard followers. I watched the Gloucester v Bath Aviva game yesterday and was jealous. Jealous that there was a big derby, a packed house, two quality sides, high intensity and kicked off on a Saturday afternoon. What incentive was there for me to attend the Scarlets game on Friday? I couldn't possibly make a 7.05 KO on a Friday, but if I could, I'd have to be mad to go and watch that performance.
On a side-note. Just how bad is Sean Holley on Scrum V? Terrible!

rugbydreamer wrote:Phil - you are right in saying that a lot of the academy players train with the regional team, however you are ignoring where it is they are playing week in, week out. THey are playing in the premiership. If the premiership was so poor, then they would not be catching the eye of the regional coaches now would they?

They've already caught that eye because they are full time professionals on full time contracts.

40 hours versus 6.

And it's not "a log of the academy players train with the regional team". They ALL do. That's the point of being in the Academy.

Throwing round cement bags and catching falling bricks?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Throwing round cement bags and catching falling bricks?

The things people will do to get a pro contract!

I don't get your point PhilBB - 1st you say the Prem isn't of a high standard and players can't make the step up to Rabo, then when a list of players who have made the step up is show, you say that it's only because they train with the region that they can make the step up - yet that's how the system is supposed to work - players aren't meant to fall through the gaps, they are meant to train with the Prem club AND the region to improve, play in the Prem to develop until they are ready to make the step up to the region. A by-product is that it improves the quality of the Prem.

Casartelli wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Throwing round cement bags and catching falling bricks?

The things people will do to get a pro contract!

Well I bet he gets much bigger things coming at him now he's got a pro contract (like North in training and Adam Jones in games )

Some people would prefer a brick...

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I don't get your point PhilBB - 1st you say the Prem isn't of a high standard and players can't make the step up to Rabo, then when a list of players who have made the step up is show, you say that it's only because they train with the region that they can make the step up - yet that's how the system is supposed to work - players aren't meant to fall through the gaps, they are meant to train with the Prem club AND the region to improve, play in the Prem to develop until they are ready to make the step up to the region. A by-product is that it improves the quality of the Prem.

There seems to be a confusion here about who plays in the WP. For the most part, it is paid amateurs. Ex-professionals or good second rate players making a tidy "living" out of the game.

Amongst that majority, there are a minority of younger players who are contracted full time professionals. They play WP rugby because there is no other environment for them to play in, but their rugby education comes from the 40 hours a week they are working for their employers, not the 6 hours a week on secondment.

The first group won't make the step up. Some from the second group will but that is primarily because of the 40 hours they spend being full time professionals rather than the 6 hours they spend on secondment.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Phil - you are right in saying that a lot of the academy players train with the regional team, however you are ignoring where it is they are playing week in, week out. THey are playing in the premiership. If the premiership was so poor, then they would not be catching the eye of the regional coaches now would they?

They've already caught that eye because they are full time professionals on full time contracts.

40 hours versus 6.

And it's not "a log of the academy players train with the regional team". They ALL do. That's the point of being in the Academy.

Sorry - I'm so confused now that I've started bleeding out of my eyes. Just to clarify, with some specific examples, would, say Matthew Morgan and Tom Prydie, who came through an 'academy' but went straight into a premiership team, be classed as 'premiership players' or 'pros who happen to play in the premiership'??? For the purposes of this discussion?

Because if we have to discount all the players who have been at an academy, then I agree the prem is krappe. And I will abandon my web based research.

Casartelli wrote:Sorry - I'm so confused now that I've started bleeding out of my eyes. Just to clarify, with some specific examples, would, say Matthew Morgan and Tom Prydie, who came through an 'academy' but went straight into a premiership team, be classed as 'premiership players' or 'pros who happen to play in the premiership'??? For the purposes of this discussion?

Because if we have to discount all the players who have been at an academy, then I agree the prem is krappe. And I will abandon my web based research.

Feel free to abandon your research.

Yet these players who are deemed good enough for the regions, play in the Premiership, yet the Premiership is still deemed as sbwriel?

Doesn't make sense to me I'm afraid.

rugbydreamer wrote:Yet these players who are deemed good enough for the regions, play in the Premiership, yet the Premiership is still deemed as sbwriel?

Doesn't make sense to me I'm afraid.

If you submerged 60 lemons in a huge tub of manure, would it still smell of pwp?

The majority of the players in the Prem are crap, that's why.

PhilBB wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Sorry - I'm so confused now that I've started bleeding out of my eyes. Just to clarify, with some specific examples, would, say Matthew Morgan and Tom Prydie, who came through an 'academy' but went straight into a premiership team, be classed as 'premiership players' or 'pros who happen to play in the premiership'??? For the purposes of this discussion?

Because if we have to discount all the players who have been at an academy, then I agree the prem is krappe. And I will abandon my web based research.

Feel free to abandon your research.

So we've agreed that the Welsh (Academy Discounted) Premiership, which isn't a thing that actually exists anywhere, is big drop down from the Rabo.

Thanks phil, a worthwhile debate, welcome to the forum. Need a nurofen...

Casartelli wrote:So we've agreed that the Welsh (Academy Discounted) Premiership, which isn't a thing that actually exists anywhere, is big drop down from the Rabo.

Of course it exists. It exists in many of the teams, for starters.

I suppose if you remove all the international players from the Jeff, Pro 12 and Top14 then they'd be pretty poor as well, though not sure you could argue that the internationals are only good because of the time they spend with the international squads.

Ahh I see the basic argument is that if you add just 1 single shot of premium vodka into a whole glass of non-alcoholic coke then the drink you create is still non-alcoholic, as you need to discount the vodka as it's been distilled in a professional distillery while the coke hasn't been.

You can't have it both ways PhilBB I'm afraid.

It's rubbish without the academy prospects, yet you are refusing to acknowledge what it's like with the academy prospects playing in it??

Baffling.

Think you're also forgetting just what the Welsh Premiership is actually there for. It's there to develop players to make the step up. I've given you examples. It's where those that have academy/development contracts go to get their game time. And it's working. It's certainly improved over the last few years or so anyway (again I'll reiterate, more so for those clubs that are actually working together with their region)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Ahh I see the basic argument is that if you add just 1 single shot of premium vodka into a whole glass of non-alcoholic coke then the drink you create is still non-alcoholic, as you need to discount the vodka as it's been distilled in a professional distillery while the coke hasn't been.

trust you to come up with a vodka related explanation!

rugbydreamer wrote:You can't have it both ways PhilBB I'm afraid.

It's rubbish without the academy prospects, yet you are refusing to acknowledge what it's like with the academy prospects playing in it??

Baffling.

Think you're also forgetting just what the Welsh Premiership is actually there for. It's there to develop players to make the step up. I've given you examples. It's where those that have academy/development contracts go to get their game time. And it's working. It's certainly improved over the last few years or so anyway (again I'll reiterate, more so for those clubs that are actually working together with their region)

last year it was won by a club barely in converation with its "region".

The standard is poor even with the Academy players (players, not prospects).

If the WP was there to develop players for the step up then I question how Pontypridd are still going. The examples you gave were of full time professionals gaining matchday time in the WP.

I thought they fielded 6 Blues academy players though, no? They certainly did the season before, although I know how little they like to acknowledge it!

You can't beat matchday experience PhilBB. No matter how much training you do, it's the playing that truly counts. They get that in the Welsh Prem.

There was loads of moaning from certain fans when my club won the Welsh Prem two years ago claiming they were "cheating" by fielding some of the academy palyers who had gained experience at regional level. I can only surmise they believed then that these academy players returning to their prem side improved the standard and quality of the side and was thus an unfair advantage (despite them playing the majority of their season with that Prem side) . But oh wait no, it can't be that, because the acadmey players don't help improve the quality Prem and it's still sbwriel, right?

You aren't making sense sorry Phil.

rugbydreamer wrote:I thought they fielded 6 Blues academy players though, no? They certainly did the season before, although I know how little they like to acknowledge it!

You can't beat matchday experience PhilBB. No matter how much training you do, it's the playing that truly counts. They get that in the Welsh Prem.

There was loads of moaning from certain fans when my club won the Welsh Prem two years ago claiming they were "cheating" by fielding some of the academy palyers who had gained experience at regional level. I can only surmise they believed then that these academy players returning to their prem side improved the standard and quality of the side and was thus an unfair advantage (despite them playing the majority of their season with that Prem side) . But oh wait no, it can't be that, because the acadmey players don't help improve the quality Prem and it's still sbwriel, right?

You aren't making sense sorry Phil.

I think that the source of your confusion is a misunderstanding as to who is a full time academy player and who is a part time player, plus who played for your club's second team having qualified by playing 5 league games that season.

The source of confusion amongst Pontypridd supporters that day was the question of the 5 game qualification. From memory, players like Shingler, Williams and John qualified for that game by having played 5 league games despite having spent more of the season playing first team rugby (please excuse me if I've got the wrong players but the sentiment is right). This is because that was the first year when the number of professionally contracted players wasn't limited in WP rugby.

It used to be limited to, from memory, two per game with unlimited use of Academy and Development contracted players. Now, thankfully, it is unlimited.

And in that final Pontypridd had Hill, Hobbs and Downes (Cardiff players) all on the bench.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Ahh I see the basic argument is that if you add just 1 single shot of premium vodka into a whole glass of non-alcoholic coke then the drink you create is still non-alcoholic, as you need to discount the vodka as it's been distilled in a professional distillery while the coke hasn't been.

The basic argument seems to centre on a belief that WP players can step up to be full time professionals.

The examples of such players who had made that leap were given, only to note that 90% of those players were already full time professionals.

rugbydreamer wrote:I thought they fielded 6 Blues academy players though, no? They certainly did the season before, although I know how little they like to acknowledge it!

You can't beat matchday experience PhilBB. No matter how much training you do, it's the playing that truly counts. They get that in the Welsh Prem.

There was loads of moaning from certain fans when my club won the Welsh Prem two years ago claiming they were "cheating" by fielding some of the academy palyers who had gained experience at regional level. I can only surmise they believed then that these academy players returning to their prem side improved the standard and quality of the side and was thus an unfair advantage (despite them playing the majority of their season with that Prem side) . But oh wait no, it can't be that, because the acadmey players don't help improve the quality Prem and it's still sbwriel, right?

You aren't making sense sorry Phil.

For once Dreamer you are saying something I can whole heartily agree with, the Welsh Prem is being designed to benefit the regions, they have reduced the amount of teams so that we can condense the talent thus making the league a lot more competitive thus the players play to a higher level, this league is filled with academy players which also increases the level, Cross Keys got to the BI cup final last season, beating some good sides on the way, I remember the grizzling that went on when Llanelli won the league but that is what Llanelli are there for, to give the Scarlets players more game time, look at how good Llandovery are doing, as time goes on more players who have been through academies at regional sides will be drip fed into the Welsh prem and it will only get stronger, the gap between the Prem and the regions is closing, it's just getting the gap to close between the regions and the top HC cup sides that we need to be addressing.

I understand your sentiment but it wasn't as though Llanelli were fielding players such as George North, Stephen Jones, Rhys Priestland etc.

They were fielding players who to my knowledge had played most of their season at Llanelli but had moved up for certain Scarlets games (players like Nick Reynolds, Rheon James etc)

Nothing wrong with that then, and as Ponty fans acknolwedged, it helped improve our side (even if they did label it as cheating).

Proof then that academy players that get experience at regional level but play most of their rugby at Prem level, improve the quality of that Prem side. It's working.

If more clubs actually embraced their feeder club status and had closer links with their region (not just what's happening in the Scarlets region for example) then it would imrpove the Prem even more.

It's those that are refusing to embrace the structure of Welsh rugby as it is that is causing a lack of quality in some areas in the Welsh Prem.

rugbydreamer wrote:I understand your sentiment but it wasn't as though Llanelli were fielding players such as George North, Stephen Jones, Rhys Priestland etc.

They were fielding players who to my knowledge had played most of their season at Llanelli but had moved up for certain Scarlets games (players like Nick Reynolds, Rheon James etc)

Nothing wrong with that then, and as Ponty fans acknolwedged, it helped improve our side (even if they did label it as cheating).

Proof then that academy players that get experience at regional level but play most of their rugby at Prem level, improve the quality of that Prem side. It's working.

If more clubs actually embraced their feeder club status and had closer links with their region (not just what's happening in the Scarlets region for example) then it would imrpove the Prem even more.

It's those that are refusing to embrace the structure of Welsh rugby as it is that is causing a lack of quality in some areas in the Welsh Prem.

How so? There's not enough players to go around.

Of the Cross Keys BIC Final team last year, how many have progressed to professional rugby? They fielded Groves and Tovey, for example.

You can't use Llanelli and Cardiff as examples for the benefit of the WP. That's just showing the benefit of having a second team.

PhilBB wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Ahh I see the basic argument is that if you add just 1 single shot of premium vodka into a whole glass of non-alcoholic coke then the drink you create is still non-alcoholic, as you need to discount the vodka as it's been distilled in a professional distillery while the coke hasn't been.

The basic argument seems to centre on a belief that WP players can step up to be full time professionals.

The examples of such players who had made that leap were given, only to note that 90% of those players were already full time professionals.

you really are quite funny Phil.

The Prem is there for the development of players that also in turn help to improve the Prem. You maintain that the gulf between the Prem and Regions is 'enormous'. You are then told that those that play week in, week out in the Prem to a good enough standard that the region offers them a contract, are then full time pro's now and therefore don't count. How on earth do you think they get to a good enough standard in the first place?

I've also yet to see you give me an example as to how the difference between the Prem and the regions is 'enormous'.

I just think you're missing the point of what the Welsh Prem is actually for sorry mate

rugbydreamer, didn't something happen in the Ospreys region and as a result ended up with Bridgend going down ? I think they ploughed a lot of players into the Swansea side to keep them up and totally ignored the Ravens, don't quote me on this though as I might be wrong.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:I understand your sentiment but it wasn't as though Llanelli were fielding players such as George North, Stephen Jones, Rhys Priestland etc.

They were fielding players who to my knowledge had played most of their season at Llanelli but had moved up for certain Scarlets games (players like Nick Reynolds, Rheon James etc)

Nothing wrong with that then, and as Ponty fans acknolwedged, it helped improve our side (even if they did label it as cheating).

Proof then that academy players that get experience at regional level but play most of their rugby at Prem level, improve the quality of that Prem side. It's working.

If more clubs actually embraced their feeder club status and had closer links with their region (not just what's happening in the Scarlets region for example) then it would imrpove the Prem even more.

It's those that are refusing to embrace the structure of Welsh rugby as it is that is causing a lack of quality in some areas in the Welsh Prem.

How so? There's not enough players to go around.

Of the Cross Keys BIC Final team last year, how many have progressed to professional rugby? They fielded Groves and Tovey, for example.

You can't use Llanelli and Cardiff as examples for the benefit of the WP. That's just showing the benefit of having a second team.

Most players I listed for you are from Llandovery The regional/feeder club system is working, for those that actually want to acknowledge it

LordDowlais wrote:rugbydreamer, didn't something happen in the Ospreys region and as a result ended up with Bridgend going down ? I think they ploughed a lot of players into the Swansea side to keep them up and totally ignored the Ravens, don't quote me on this though as I might be wrong.

Bridgend were due to go down, along with Carmarthen Quins but as far as I'm aware the Ospreys and Scarlets had to pay extra to keep them up in the Welsh Prem.

I know a lot of development has been going on in Bridgend recently, but I think Shifty might be the best person to ask on that club

rugbydreamer wrote: you really are quite funny Phil.

The Prem is there for the development of players that also in turn help to improve the Prem. You maintain that the gulf between the Prem and Regions is 'enormous'. You are then told that those that play week in, week out in the Prem to a good enough standard that the region offers them a contract, are then full time pro's now and therefore don't count. How on earth do you think they get to a good enough standard in the first place?

I've also yet to see you give me an example as to how the difference between the Prem and the regions is 'enormous'.

I just think you're missing the point of what the Welsh Prem is actually for sorry mate

Erm, you seem to be laughing at your own misunderstanding.

They become full time professionals in the Academy, having graduated from u18 rugby and are then placed with a WP team. That's where they "get to a good enough standard in the first place".

Thanks for your advice, but it seems that it is only one of us unaware of the development pathway.

rugbydreamer wrote:Most players I listed for you are from Llandovery The regional/feeder club system is working, for those that actually want to acknowledge it

They were placed in Llandovery having already been contracted.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Most players I listed for you are from Llandovery The regional/feeder club system is working, for those that actually want to acknowledge it

They were placed in Llandovery having already been contracted.

Yes but where are they getting the game time to actually develop? Training alone isn't enough.

rugbydreamer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:I understand your sentiment but it wasn't as though Llanelli were fielding players such as George North, Stephen Jones, Rhys Priestland etc.

They were fielding players who to my knowledge had played most of their season at Llanelli but had moved up for certain Scarlets games (players like Nick Reynolds, Rheon James etc)

Nothing wrong with that then, and as Ponty fans acknolwedged, it helped improve our side (even if they did label it as cheating).

Proof then that academy players that get experience at regional level but play most of their rugby at Prem level, improve the quality of that Prem side. It's working.

If more clubs actually embraced their feeder club status and had closer links with their region (not just what's happening in the Scarlets region for example) then it would imrpove the Prem even more.

It's those that are refusing to embrace the structure of Welsh rugby as it is that is causing a lack of quality in some areas in the Welsh Prem.

How so? There's not enough players to go around.

Of the Cross Keys BIC Final team last year, how many have progressed to professional rugby? They fielded Groves and Tovey, for example.

You can't use Llanelli and Cardiff as examples for the benefit of the WP. That's just showing the benefit of having a second team.

Most players I listed for you are from Llandovery The regional/feeder club system is working, for those that actually want to acknowledge it

I fully acknowledge what the Welsh prem is for, this is why I argue so strongly about regions bringing in young Romanians and the rest.

rugbydreamer wrote:
Bridgend were due to go down, along with Carmarthen Quins but as far as I'm aware the Ospreys and Scarlets had to pay extra to keep them up in the Welsh Prem.

I know a lot of development has been going on in Bridgend recently, but I think Shifty might be the best person to ask on that club

No payment was made. RRW made a request for those two to remain in the WP. Clarification of this is shown in the Judge's summation of the Pontypool vs WRU court case.

A lot of development may now be going on at Bridgend because it is owned by the Ospreys.

rugbydreamer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Most players I listed for you are from Llandovery The regional/feeder club system is working, for those that actually want to acknowledge it

They were placed in Llandovery having already been contracted.

Yes but where are they getting the game time to actually develop? Training alone isn't enough.

You're conflating "training" with "how they got their contract".

Can we deal with one issue at a time here, please?

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote: you really are quite funny Phil.

The Prem is there for the development of players that also in turn help to improve the Prem. You maintain that the gulf between the Prem and Regions is 'enormous'. You are then told that those that play week in, week out in the Prem to a good enough standard that the region offers them a contract, are then full time pro's now and therefore don't count. How on earth do you think they get to a good enough standard in the first place?

I've also yet to see you give me an example as to how the difference between the Prem and the regions is 'enormous'.

I just think you're missing the point of what the Welsh Prem is actually for sorry mate

Erm, you seem to be laughing at your own misunderstanding.

They become full time professionals in the Academy, having graduated from u18 rugby and are then placed with a WP team. That's where they "get to a good enough standard in the first place".

Thanks for your advice, but it seems that it is only one of us unaware of the development pathway.

So what exactly do you want the Welsh Prem to be, if not the place where academy and agre grade prospects get game time? With the amount of players coming through the acadmies, where exactly are they supposed to go?

I have a clear understanding of the development pathway thanks, and it's one that's been confirmed by coaches of prem clubs that I've spoken to ta

Of those I named for you, only George North has come up through age grade.

Keiran Murphy, Andy Fenby and Liam Williams were all picked up later (although in Sanjays' case still quite young, but certainly not through the traditional route).

Edit: Adam Warren only got picked up at age grade for the U20's, not before that either.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:
Bridgend were due to go down, along with Carmarthen Quins but as far as I'm aware the Ospreys and Scarlets had to pay extra to keep them up in the Welsh Prem.

I know a lot of development has been going on in Bridgend recently, but I think Shifty might be the best person to ask on that club

No payment was made. RRW made a request for those two to remain in the WP. Clarification of this is shown in the Judge's summation of the Pontypool vs WRU court case.

A lot of development may now be going on at Bridgend because it is owned by the Ospreys.

Ah cool ta, didn't know that

rugbydreamer wrote:
So what exactly do you want the Welsh Prem to be, if not the place where academy and agre grade prospects get game time? With the amount of players coming through the acadmies, where exactly are they supposed to go?

I have a clear understanding of the development pathway thanks, and it's one that's been confirmed by coaches of prem clubs that I've spoken to ta

Of those I named for you, only George North has come up through age grade.

Keiran Murphy, Andy Fenby and Liam Williams were all picked up later (although in Sanjays' case still quite young, but certainly not through the traditional route).

You keep conflating the issues which leads the debate nowhere. To recap:

Academy players should play in the WP. My point was that it was claimed that WP players should go on to be full time professionals but the players mentioned were already full time professionals.

I'm at a loss as to how you can claim to know how the development pathway works when your posts in this thread show the complete opposite. You've been unaware about how players ended up at certain clubs, how players are awarded development contracts and how Academy players train and work.

So of course the already full time professional players playing in the WP should be able to step up, but those are small in number compared with the older, semi professional players who dominate that league. Those players aren't capable of stepping up.

You've named me three players, one of which is a Gog and the other two were overlooked by the Ospreys, as some kind of proof of something or other, although I'm not quite sure of what.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Most players I listed for you are from Llandovery The regional/feeder club system is working, for those that actually want to acknowledge it

They were placed in Llandovery having already been contracted.

Yes but where are they getting the game time to actually develop? Training alone isn't enough.

You're conflating "training" with "how they got their contract".

Can we deal with one issue at a time here, please?

Right, so, as a mildly interested party, Phil's hypothesis is that the Premiership is not producing/identifying late bloomers*. That should be easy enough to test. Are there many players currently established with a region who played in the premiership without going through a region's academy? If there are more than a handful, he's wrong. If not, then there's something wrong with the Welsh system.


*He's then surmising that the if it doesn't do so then it's rubbish. The fact that it provides gametime and therefore extra development to ex-academy players is a mitigation of his argument - the extent to which that makes the Prem good/adequate/poor is very subjective and could go around in circles for ages

Kieran Murphy wasn't a full time professional until v recently. It was the quality of his performances for Llandovery last season that got him calls up to the Scarlets.

And I wasn't ware Murphy was an ex-Osprey?

Phil you said that there was an 'enormous' gulf in class between the Welsh Prem and the Regions and have provided absolutely nothing to back up that statement.

You are given examples of players that play week in and week out in the Prem. Yes they might train with the regions, but the fact is that they are able to make the step up when it comes to the actual match. There is a big (not enormous) difference in match intensity between the Welsh Prem and the regions, yet those that actually play for the prem week in week out are making the step up (again I've given you examples). Training no doubt helps but if the game time experience they were getting in the Welsh prem was so 'enourmously' below that of the regions, how are they then able to compete so ably? training alone as already stated isn't enough of a difference.

I am not pretending to be an expert on the ins and outs of Welsh rugby. I am simply going on that which I've been told about regional and feeder club contact, the highlighting of players, the itneractions they have between club and region and how that works. Murphy is a clear example.

You can refuse to acknowledge that if you like but what this comes down to is that you think there is an enormous gulf between the Welsh Prem and the Regions without giving an actual reason, whilst I think that the standard of the Welsh Prem has been improving over the last few years, largely due to the introduction of the academy players.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Right, so, as a mildly interested party, Phil's hypothesis is that the Premiership is not producing/identifying late bloomers*. That should be easy enough to test. Are there many players currently established with a region who played in the premiership without going through a region's academy? If there are more than a handful, he's wrong. If not, then there's something wrong with the Welsh system.


*He's then surmising that the if it doesn't do so then it's rubbish. The fact that it provides gametime and therefore extra development to ex-academy players is a mitigation of his argument - the extent to which that makes the Prem good/adequate/poor is very subjective and could go around in circles for ages

I'm "surmising" that the gulf in standard between WP and Pro12 rugby is huge. I know this to be true by watching top WP players struggle in the Pro12 and by watching average professionals make hay at WP level.

That's it.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Most players I listed for you are from Llandovery The regional/feeder club system is working, for those that actually want to acknowledge it

They were placed in Llandovery having already been contracted.

Yes but where are they getting the game time to actually develop? Training alone isn't enough.

You're conflating "training" with "how they got their contract".

Can we deal with one issue at a time here, please?

Right, so, as a mildly interested party, Phil's hypothesis is that the Premiership is not producing/identifying late bloomers*. That should be easy enough to test. Are there many players currently established with a region who played in the premiership without going through a region's academy? If there are more than a handful, he's wrong. If not, then there's something wrong with the Welsh system.


*He's then surmising that the if it doesn't do so then it's rubbish. The fact that it provides gametime and therefore extra development to ex-academy players is a mitigation of his argument - the extent to which that makes the Prem good/adequate/poor is very subjective and could go around in circles for ages

This is the bit I tried commenting on earlier. The regions and academy systems ahve been in place now for 10 years. Those that were missed by the academies system at the start of it would be about 28+ now. it's rare anywhere, for players of that age to suddenly make the leap up now. Which is why I pointed to Fenby and Murphy who are circa 24-27 years old and have already played well enough to earn themselves contracts.

PhilBB wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Right, so, as a mildly interested party, Phil's hypothesis is that the Premiership is not producing/identifying late bloomers*. That should be easy enough to test. Are there many players currently established with a region who played in the premiership without going through a region's academy? If there are more than a handful, he's wrong. If not, then there's something wrong with the Welsh system.


*He's then surmising that the if it doesn't do so then it's rubbish. The fact that it provides gametime and therefore extra development to ex-academy players is a mitigation of his argument - the extent to which that makes the Prem good/adequate/poor is very subjective and could go around in circles for ages

I'm "surmising" that the gulf in standard between WP and Pro12 rugby is huge. I know this to be true by watching top WP players struggle in the Pro12 and by watching average professionals make hay at WP level.

That's it.

Which WP players have you seen struggling in the Pro12? (finally we might get an example!)

rugbydreamer wrote:Kieran Murphy wasn't a full time professional until v recently. It was the quality of his performances for Llandovery last season that got him calls up to the Scarlets.

And I wasn't ware Murphy was an ex-Osprey?

Phil you said that there was an 'enormous' gulf in class between the Welsh Prem and the Regions and have provided absolutely nothing to back up that statement.

You are given examples of players that play week in and week out in the Prem. Yes they might train with the regions, but the fact is that they are able to make the step up when it comes to the actual match. There is a big (not enormous) difference in match intensity between the Welsh Prem and the regions, yet those that actually play for the prem week in week out are making the step up (again I've given you examples). Training no doubt helps but if the game time experience they were getting in the Welsh prem was so 'enourmously' below that of the regions, how are they then able to compete so ably? training alone as already stated isn't enough of a difference.

I am not pretending to be an expert on the ins and outs of Welsh rugby. I am simply going on that which I've been told about regional and feeder club contact, the highlighting of players, the itneractions they have between club and region and how that works. Murphy is a clear example.

You can refuse to acknowledge that if you like but what this comes down to is that you think there is an enormous gulf between the Welsh Prem and the Regions without giving an actual reason, whilst I think that the standard of the Welsh Prem has been improving over the last few years, largely due to the introduction of the academy players.

Murphy was picked up by Llanelli whilst playing for Mumbles: w-ww.scarletfever.org/forum/kieran-murphy-and-ben-morgan_topic30164.html

I didn't claim that he was an ex-Osprey.

To back up my statement about the gulf in qualify I have named players who fail at one but shine at the other.

If you can't accept that 40 hours of work brings more benefit than 6 hours of work then I guess we'll never agree.

Clearly Murphy isn't a clear example as you got that one wrong.

I've given you the reason for the gap in quality.

rugbydreamer wrote:Which WP players have you seen struggling in the Pro12? (finally we might get an example!)

You must have missed this previously.

A classic example is Gareth Davies. The best 10 in the WP but struggles significantly at the higher level even now whilst contracted.

And yet still refuse to acknowledge that academy players/regional players getting game time in the Prem won't improve the standard of the players around them? You really don't think their experiences and approach don't influence them?

And I must have missed the list of players you gave sorry, or is it simply just Gareth Davies?

Are we still on this.

Not to rehash all I spouted earlier but the prem has no development systems put in place to bring youngsters through... AT ALL!!!

All development is at the hands of the regions!

Well aye bluseman that's what the regions are for, surely?

And ha yes we are still on this, it's been a delightful way to pass a rather boring afternoon

game time in the Prem won't improve the standard of the players around them?

Mate I'll name an example, Prydie!!!

Whilst playing at Swansea early last season he came down to bedwas (obviosly post welsh cap) he tried to direct the backline from fullback and I won't name any names but was told to shat the fudge up or he'd get a broken nose by his own teammate...

Would you say that aided Prydies development? Or was it the Ospreys conditioning sessions, strength work, SAQ work or lifestyle awareness training he received?

If anyone is suggesting that the prem is of anywhere near standard of professional rugby then this argument is over.

If you can't understand the difference between professional and amateur status then there is no point debating this at all.

No man, the debate was that someone thought the gulf was enormous without saying why, while the other tried to say it wasn't that big a gap and that standards were improving as they have to prove themselves in the prem first (despite academy/development contracts).

One then has spent their time trying to disprove the other whilst coming up with no reasons of their own

Personally I'm happy with how standards are improving at clubs like Llanelli and llandovery, still a long way to go but the quality is improving