Regions at lowest point

by manofgwent Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

Surely I can't be the only fan of regional rugby to be feeling really down on the state we're all in. Before I know this wont go down well with Scarlets and O's fans, as they really are making the best of what they've got. My biggest worry is the standard of rugby on display. I attended the Dragons v Blues game and not only were they the weakest sides I've seen from these regions, the standard of play was appalling. Even Blues fans stood near me were commenting at how dire their side is, so what does that say about the Dragons?? I dont want to rubbish my region as I'm passionate about them, but the display on Friday was a complete embarrassment. Look at the Blues, getting thumped at home on consecutive weekends.
For me, I think that in Wales, we have several world class players, some very good players and below that, there is a big drop-off in standards. We have very little depth and it makes me wonder when people want a 5th region!! How poor would they be?
I watched the game on Friday and thought to myself that I hope Toby Faletau leaves the Dragons. If he stays at the Dragons he could well lose his welsh place. He's such a talent that he deserves so much better and I've no doubt that he and Lydiate will have no option other than to go go.
I take my hat off to the Scarlets. A few seasons ago they were the 4th placed region. They've turned that on it's head and how? Not by splashing cash, but by bringing through what seems like an endless amount of talent.
You know that by the end of the season, in the Rabies league, the 3 Irish provinces will be in the play-offs with 1 other from Wales or Scotland. The regions simply cannot compete in Europe. Not one will get into the quarters and yet Wales are grand slam winners!! Not that many players have gone abroad.
With the standard being so poor, attendances will surely decrease even further, yet Wales will sell-out for the autumn tests. I'd love to see the regions given more money to attract bigger names. That's the difference with the regions and the rest of Europe. I would like to see a limit on overseas players though to stop gross being brought in. But what would people rather, a successful national team or successful regions? Why can't we have both?
The national coaches must love seeing the youngsters blooded in the Rabies, but it doesn't bring success and only attracts die-hard followers. I watched the Gloucester v Bath Aviva game yesterday and was jealous. Jealous that there was a big derby, a packed house, two quality sides, high intensity and kicked off on a Saturday afternoon. What incentive was there for me to attend the Scarlets game on Friday? I couldn't possibly make a 7.05 KO on a Friday, but if I could, I'd have to be mad to go and watch that performance.
On a side-note. Just how bad is Sean Holley on Scrum V? Terrible!

by Morgannwg Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:16 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Billy Vunipola definitely outplayed his 2 year older cousin Toby Faletau on Sunday.

Are they related? It is no surprise. Toby has been off form since just before getting a lengthy lay off courteousy of an injury.

by Morgannwg Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:24 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Dragons picked a weakened team to play Wasps, god only knows why.

Because Darren Edwards is a complete idiot and ridiculously out of his depth.

Dragons fans said the same thing about every single coach after Mike Ruddock. It takes you about a year to come to the conclusion it is the coaches fault and nothing else and then he gets frustrated and either steps down or gets sacked.

Dragons problems aren't with Edwards. Your forwards need a better coach. You need more talented players in your squad, backs and forwards.

A first team Dragons XV is a good side, on their day they can give anyone a bloody nose. But a few injuries and they are stuffed.

Robling is not as good as Jones, Davies as Evans, Evans as Lydiate etc etc etc

Do you know what you're talking about? Paul Turner was a good coach but made some curious signings over the years and got to the point where he could not take the team no further. He should have stepped down at the end of the summer instead of halfway through the following season. But that was probably a management error/ Edwards came in and breathed some new lease of life into the team and the performances showed that. Instead of pushing on from there things seemed to go stale and now look to be going backwards. He hasn't picked the best 22 for a game of rugby all season. It's widely agreed that the Dragons should target the ACC for a number of solid, possitive reasons. But we threw away the game before KO against Wasps. Therein the problem lies with the coach doesn't it?

Buck doesn't look to be going anywhere. Hopefully halfway through the season somebody else from the premiership will be given a chance. Unless we get a big TH from elsewhere. Jury is still out on Coundley and Robling. We also lack depth at 2nd row and could do with an experienced backline leader type of player capable of holding a starting place in the team, a player guys like Jones, Robling, Amos and Dixon can learn from.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:36 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Billy Vunipola definitely outplayed his 2 year older cousin Toby Faletau on Sunday.

Are they related? It is no surprise. Toby has been off form since just before getting a lengthy lay off courteousy of an injury.

Yes they are cousins -

The pair grew up together in Wales when Toby’s dad Kuli played at lock for Ebbw Vale and Pontypool and Billy’s dad Fe’ao at hooker for Pooler, Caerphilly and Pontypridd.
Billy's elder brother is prop for Sarries both are destined for full caps IMO.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:05 am

Are they looking to be capped by Tonga?

Impressive family fair play.

by bedfordwelsh Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:22 am

There was nothing wrong with Turner as coach until afe wdubious signings and dis-agreements with the board and our forwards have struggled since Charvis left.

I was never convinced about Edwards and would have loved to Kingsley Jones take over but doubt we could have afforded him.

I have always said that the Amlin is our right level, I don't think we will ever challenge for honours in the Pro12 or the HC if we managed to finish as 3rd Region again.

However if we gave the Amlin a concerted effort then I think we coukld go a decent way like Connacht did previously.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:28 am

I think if you managed to get the WRU to sell their half of the region to a interested party within the region then in a few years I reckon you could compete, with extra money you'd be able to keep hold of your stars and ramp up your academy prospects, a few shrewd signings later (like D Evans and Prydie) and you'd be a front row away from a very good side.

It's just such a shame that you are hamstrung

by Guest Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:16 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:However if we gave the Amlin a concerted effort then I think we coukld go a decent way like Connacht did previously.

That's what annoyed me with the selection for Saturday. Looks like we have given up on the Amlin already.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:44 am

It is a real shame, as I think a good run (up to say the semi's) in the Amlin would really lift the supporters and would also help improve their European ranking as well, and maybe attract some bigger players to them.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:58 am

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Are they looking to be capped by Tonga?

Impressive family fair play.

Not sure if that comment was tongue in cheek or not but..

No they have played through the England grade levels similar to Toby with Wales.

by Stone Motif Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:00 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think if you managed to get the WRU to sell their half of the region to a interested party within the region then in a few years I reckon you could compete, with extra money you'd be able to keep hold of your stars and ramp up your academy prospects, a few shrewd signings later (like D Evans and Prydie) and you'd be a front row away from a very good side.

It's just such a shame that you are hamstrung

Do you reckon that the likes of Tony Brown, reportedly worth in excess of £70m, and the owner of the ground, has not broached this with the WRU? They are refusing to sell for a reason, and my two penneth is to fold the region once North Wales are ready. The loss of pro rugby in Gwent will then no doubt be laid squarely at the door of 'Newport', for refusing to be more regional Rolling Eyes

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:23 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Are they looking to be capped by Tonga?

Impressive family fair play.

Not sure if that comment was tongue in cheek or not but..

No they have played through the England grade levels similar to Toby with Wales.

Ahh I see, apologies the way you mentioned them originally lead me to believe that they were born in Tonga and brought up in Pontypool yet now play for Sarries, as such I figured they'd only qualify for Tonga. If they'd grown up/gone to school in England then obviously thats a lot different.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:25 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think if you managed to get the WRU to sell their half of the region to a interested party within the region then in a few years I reckon you could compete, with extra money you'd be able to keep hold of your stars and ramp up your academy prospects, a few shrewd signings later (like D Evans and Prydie) and you'd be a front row away from a very good side.

It's just such a shame that you are hamstrung
Do you reckon that the likes of Tony Brown, reportedly worth in excess of £70m, and the owner of the ground, has not broached this with the WRU? They are refusing to sell for a reason, and my two penneth is to fold the region once North Wales are ready. The loss of pro rugby in Gwent will then no doubt be laid squarely at the door of 'Newport', for refusing to be more regional

I wasn't having a go at the Dragons/Brown, but the WRU for letting their half of the Dragons rot, and thus discouraging investment in the 'other half', putting the Dragons at a continual disadvantage as a result.

I hope your wrong, but it could be one reason.

by maestegmafia Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:38 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think if you managed to get the WRU to sell their half of the region to a interested party within the region then in a few years I reckon you could compete, with extra money you'd be able to keep hold of your stars and ramp up your academy prospects, a few shrewd signings later (like D Evans and Prydie) and you'd be a front row away from a very good side.

It's just such a shame that you are hamstrung
Do you reckon that the likes of Tony Brown, reportedly worth in excess of £70m, and the owner of the ground, has not broached this with the WRU? They are refusing to sell for a reason, and my two penneth is to fold the region once North Wales are ready. The loss of pro rugby in Gwent will then no doubt be laid squarely at the door of 'Newport', for refusing to be more regional

Thats quite a sad supposition.

I would have thought/hoped that the WRU would look for a more positive future for Rugby in Gwent.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:35 pm

squarely at the door of 'Newport', for refusing to be more regional

I cannot stand this sentence, I spent the last 3 seasons travelling to the back end of beyonds all over the gwent region for player development, selction etc... There isnt much going on in Newport that you cant find in Ponty, Cwmbran, Ebbw, Treforest, Chepstow, MM, Risca, Bargoed, Aber etc...

by Stone Motif Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:42 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:squarely at the door of 'Newport', for refusing to be more regional

I cannot stand this sentence, I spent the last 3 seasons travelling to the back end of beyonds all over the gwent region for player development, selction etc... There isnt much going on in Newport that you cant find in Ponty, Cwmbran, Ebbw, Treforest, Chepstow, MM, Risca, Bargoed, Aber etc...

Yes I know Blues. Do you ever read posts before jumping in? I was merely stating that if the lack of interest from the WRU/lack of ability to invest from the other Gwent clubs kills off the Dragons as it appears the WRU would like, Newport will no doubt get the blame for the region folding.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:48 pm

Context stone.

It wasn't a shot at you, just an observation that I see that quote all the time and it winds me up!!!

by Stone Motif Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:51 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
I wasn't having a go at the Dragons/Brown, but the WRU for letting their half of the Dragons rot, and thus discouraging investment in the 'other half', putting the Dragons at a continual disadvantage as a result.

I hope your wrong, but it could be one reason.

I know you're not having a dig, tbh it's refreshing to see fans of other regions realising what a fridge on our backs the WRU 50% ownership has been. A note of caution as we move towards top up contracts as this is more centralisation of control by the back door. The regions need to be run as businesses. Certain dinosaurs on our board are as culpable in all this as Roger Lewis and his mates mind.

by Stone Motif Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:58 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Context stone.

It wasn't a shot at you, just an observation that I see that quote all the time and it winds me up!!!

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:02 pm

Just thinking about it, the WRU own the Dragons 50%, and now they are talking about paying 50% of Lydiates wages (if the dual contract goes ahead), so why ain't they doing that now?

by Stone Motif Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:02 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Context stone.

It wasn't a shot at you, just an observation that I see that quote all the time and it winds me up!!!

Fair do's, Blues. It winds me up too.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:18 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just thinking about it, the WRU own the Dragons 50%, and now they are talking about paying 50% of Lydiates wages (if the dual contract goes ahead), so why ain't they doing that now?

Who chuffing knows.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:15 pm

"Who chuffing knows"

Polite version of my answer whenever foreign friends ask about the WRU...

by LordDowlais Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:31 pm

This thread is a non starter now, the regions are not at their lowest point, in fact Welsh rugby is as strong as ever, it was always going to take a generation for us to rebuild and this is where we are at now, ten years down the line and we have emerged from the shadows and we have a raft of very tallented youngsters to start to take a strangle hold on things, the trouble is some people want things now, I would say this much, I would take the regions now,rather than what they were when they were first setup, full of overpaid journeymen, now we are starting to see more WQ players playing when these youngsters come of age, the ones who are now knocking on the door will be pushing and there will be more behind them, so are the regions at their lowes point ? No, the bitter fans who want nothing to do with regionalism are now being replaced by kids who are ten years older, this will keep on until the club rivalries are forgotten and we jus have regional rivalries. king

by thebluesmancometh Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:06 pm

yay, we can finally put to bed all that pesky tradition and heritage we used to have...

In reality the regions are still full of overpaid journeymen!!! and the regions are about to accumulate their worst ever showing both domestically and in europe.

by glamorganalun Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:46 pm

bluesman:

Is that true, the Blues got to a semi in Cardiff in the HC and that's it I believe since regional rugby, Welsh teams had more success during club rugby. The Ospreys are still competitive as are the Scarlets, the Blues have been up and down over 10 years the Dragons have been consistently poor and always struggled.

I agree with your overpaid journey men creaming money out of Welsh rugby, some players have been good but what has Welsh club rugby got out of the imports, no finalists in the HC.

by thebluesmancometh Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:01 pm

We've seen a Blues semi, Scarlet semi?? and an Amlin win. But they are of squads who were bundled together at inception with internationals all over, of which we are losing and not replacing.

I foresee all 3 regions crashing out of europe at the first hurdle this year!!!

by Morgannwg Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:04 pm

Most predicted that anyway as soon as we seen the French teams the Regions were grouped with.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:39 am

Yeah not many people expected the Scarlets to get out of a group with Clermont and Leinster in. Not sure which Welsh clubs in the pre-regional professional era would be expected to beat the top two sides in Europe? From my memory none, we did get to some semi finals (as we're currently doing) but top two? definately not.

Ospreys have Toulouse, one of the richest and best teams in Europe and Leicester always difficult, so it's a toss up if the Ospreys will get through - but it hardly proves your an awful side if you lose to Leicester and Toulouse.

Blues are rebuilding (which they should have done after the Amlin win), poor management but they look like their beginning on the road the Scarlets went down 4 years ago and in a few seasons should be chock full of talented youngsters who are knocking on the Wales door - hardly a bad thing. Even so they may get out of their group, and should do better than the Scarlets did 3-4 years ago when we lost all our games.

Again not sure any clubs with semi-pro players promoted to professional contracts with 2-3 internationals (instead of 6-10) would do any better - particularly as they'd be used to playing other similarly weakened Welsh teams instead of the cream of Ireland and Scotland each week.

by bedfordwelsh Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:43 am

Were the clubs really any better than the Regions now are?

by Smirnoffpriest Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:07 am

Some people think so Bedford

Personally I think many of the clubs would be bankrupt by now if we'd kept the previous system...

by bedfordwelsh Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:30 am

Sorry I will re-phrase that.

The atmosphere at games was better and even some of the crowds but a lot of this seems to be evolving around our success (or lack of it) in Europe.

So were the clubs anymore successful in Europe than the Regions, the National side certainly wasn't.

by Morgannwg Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:31 am

Definitely not. Cue people saying Cardiff made the European final (the year no English or Scottish teams were entered into the competition). Seriously have people forgot Leinster and Toulouse coming down to South Wales and beating teams 70 odd nil?

by bedfordwelsh Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:07 pm

Morg,

I remember them putting 103 on Ebbw away but we did beat them in the return leg at ECP

by thebluesmancometh Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:20 pm

YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE CLUBS WITH THE REGIONS!!!!!

I'm sick of telling people over and over, the clubs were amateur, run by guys who wouldn't know good investment if it slapped them in their face, oh and the mates they had on board. The clubs were still amateur in the prof era when everyone else left us for dead. The clubs that existed then, and were run by the people then would certainly be extinct.

A new prem run by business men, with professional players would be a whole different ball game, new set up, new mindset, new era (not that I'm saying they would compete in europe initially)

The regions until recently were very competitive, Blues and Ospreys would qualify regularly, Blues beat Tolouse on numerous occasions, Leicester and Ospreys developed a great rivalry where they matched each other... lets see how Blues and Ospreys do against Leicester and Toulon who they have beaten away from home in recent years shall we?!

Anyone thinking the regions are not in decline is kidding themselves!!!

by bedfordwelsh Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:27 pm

Blues,

Where would these 12 business men come from though and would you go back to the original 12 clubs?

I have always said that the Regions were set up hap-hazardly and are still not right but for me going back to 12 clubs would be a far bigger step backwards than setting the Regions up in first place.

by Kingshu Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:44 pm

Think theres about 4 threads all saying the same thing.

Ahh boo hoo regions are as good as they were, I feel left out, I want the clubs back, boo hoo hoo

by thebluesmancometh Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:52 pm

There wouldn't necesarily need to be 12 business men, 5/6 are around at present capable of running a prof prem club each, models such as the valleys initiative could become reality, and the WRU can help fund a few. Initially the WRU would offer little if any funding to the clubs with owners, with a view to a 12 amount fair distribution system.

3 HC spots and 3 AC spots ensures the league is competitive and extra income for those competing.

Now I know we would go from being competitive)ish) at present to getting a few tonkings here and there, but domestic success and the push of quality and depth of young talent would take it's toll in a few years.

I would also like to see a prof prem that reverts to regions come HC time, so international players would be contracted centrally, the excitement of HC would be even greater with player selection from the 3 prof clubs, and competitiveness both domestically and in europe.

Lots of holes in the logic and finances, but I prefer to call them wrinkles, and a prof prem is very workable.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:54 pm

Also Bluesman - is it just the attraction of the reinstated rivalries/pride of wearing the hometown shirt that would keep the best players in Wales?

If not then how would all 12 teams find the money to pay for competitive squads? - the regions seem to have shown that even a playing budget of £5m a year doesn't guarentee European success - other than an Amlin and a HEC semi-final.

by thebluesmancometh Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:55 pm

"Ahh boo hoo regions are as good as they were, I feel left out, I want the clubs back, boo hoo hoo"

You couldn't be more wrong,

firstly I am Cardiff born and bread and therefore represented better than anyone else in Wales.

Secondly I'm barely old enough to remember the club system.

Thirdly From what I remember about the club system it was run by morons and their mates, for fun. They were not professional entities, or business style sport clubs.

Fourthly the regions are exactly what they were, unfortunately what they were were short term fixes to a long term problem, a problem that threatens the club games existence in Wales!

by Smirnoffpriest Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:00 pm

The Valleys business plan (besides being ludicrous) is for a development region with a playing budget of £1.2m and is not supposed to be competitive - though it does still need a 1,000 fans to pay a £100 on top of their season ticket each year.

And which money men are these 5/6 people? Or do you mean the current ones at the regions? If so there are only Peter Thomas, Brown and Cuddy and Cuddy wants out.

by thebluesmancometh Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:04 pm

Good point Smirnoff, and one that doesn't just apply to a possible prof prem system but to the regional system we currently have.

Why would our best players stay at the regions when they could get more money elsewhere?

IMO a prof prem working towards something would give the players a sense of ownership, a sense of responsibility, a sense that you are contributing to the game in Wales. Do they get that at regional level?

Then we move on to the rivalries with old enemies up the road, the thought of not having to travel 4/5/6 hours or get on flights week in week out, knowing their freinds and families are involved in their club in some form.

I don't want my kids to be in a clubhouse with me when the locals start singing something like 'the pontypool front row' and ask what it's about.

The regions have failed to inspire the public who are not onboard, I went to the Shed a few seasons back and it's embarrassing compared to the CAP or CCS, there was history there, tradition, passion, everything that has been eliminated from the club game in Wales.

The Welsh fans used to be renowned for the welcoming atmosphere, the party atmosphere, the in club qoirs etc... Now we are just known for standing quiet while the 50 away fans humiliate us in our own back yards!!!

Ive been to the RDS, Murray, Thomond, and most club grounds all over the UK, Ireland and France, following The Blues and Dragons and it's so sad to see just 20/30 away fans. A fully prof prem would give us our identity back, it would allow us to follow our clubs, and would maybe inspire us to travel on the rare HC away game in numbers...

by thebluesmancometh Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:08 pm

The Valleys business plan is a bit far fetched, but with a prof prem 1.2 mill would be a large playing budget, it would be competitive domestically as a club in Ponty.

Of the ones who are within the regions now ye Cuddy wants out but why is that? If he were offered to own Neath RFC for a prof prem do you think he would be interested???

There are plenty of business men in South Wales, they just need to be inspired and offered an opportunity that excites, like the fans!

by Smirnoffpriest Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:33 pm

My point is that in the modern professional game £1.2m is enough for a development team or a team with no aspirations in Europe, it also isn't enough money to keep any internationals (unless you are expecting all the Welsh internationals to take pay cuts of 30% at a rough guess).

What you will almost definately find is a league with teams with just over £1m to spend, losing all the internationals, and better players to foreign leagues (not just the 5-10 players currently) and the average, mediocre and older/younger players playing it out in a poor quality league, while every European game would see 70 points put on them by the likes of Toulouse/Leicester/Munster.

And IF this system suddenly increases the professional player pool by 150% you would see most of the best of these players playing abroad as the clubs wouldn't be able to afford them.

An example (and I know it's taken from the shameture days but as you dismiss anything before regional rugby as amature anyway there is not any other examples) is the many waves of Wales internationals who have left the country/clubs inspite of their connections with their traditional home grown clubs to other countries and even other sports when more money was on offer.

And even within Wales the huge swaths of players who have been tempted to the bigger money in Cardiff/Swansea on offer inspite of the strong identity and represntation they felt at clubs like Pontypridd and Bridgend. Ending up playing for their rivals instead of against them.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:34 pm

I also can never see Cuddy buying Neath after all that's gone on between them and the Ospreys/him.

Or can see the money men in the regions or the WRU kissing goodbye to the millions and millions they've invested in the the regions to go back to the system they had before which would need further money men and much more millions for these same people to get it up and running.

by Kingshu Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:41 pm

what it sounds like to me thebluesmancometh is your wanting the Welsh prem back, at a higher level than currently, but would be lower level than the regions.
"with a prof prem 1.2 mill would be a large playing budget"

You may get teams that are good domestically but would be hammered when they play in Europe, even Zebre would be getting BP wins over them, how long would fans stay supporting them? Fans would drop off as they are enbrassed by them in Europe, would it be better at developing players?

No the good players would be in teams with average players, and play against weaker teams, as in chess "the only way to get better is to play a better opponent", this was the reson the regions came about, to concentrate the best players, and against play the best players on a regular basis, and it appears to be working for Wales and Ireland.

I cannot see any benefit for Wales, going back to clubs.

The regions were formed badly, but it was clearly right to go regional.

by Stone Motif Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:48 pm

Not enough talent for 12 teams. You'd end up scratching for players and journeymen getting pro wages just to turn a squad out. All this of tradition and rivalry is a no goer, it certainly didn't work in the decades preceding regions did it?

by Kingshu Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:12 pm

Sometimes I wonder, the Welsh glory age 70's build on the clubs,
But how much of it was down to the clubs going well, and how much was it down to them being shamateur.

In the amateur its know the Welsh clubs were working round paying players by giving them money for other things.

Now I don't want to single out the Welsh clubs as there were other clubs doing it in England as well.

But how much was success of that era was down to the Welsh clubs being more shamateur than the others, that in effect the players were professional and were playing against amateurs.

I think in effect that as other clubs became shamateur to the same level the Welsh team lost their advantage and totally lost it in the Pro era when all clubs could offically professionalise.

So people look back to the glory days when the Clubs were among the best in Europe, but did they have an advantage then? (they did also have some very good players and would have been up thier regardless, but did it help them more?)

by Morgannwg Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:37 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE CLUBS WITH THE REGIONS!!!!!

I'm sick of telling people over and over, the clubs were amateur, run by guys who wouldn't know good investment if it slapped them in their face, oh and the mates they had on board. The clubs were still amateur in the prof era when everyone else left us for dead. The clubs that existed then, and were run by the people then would certainly be extinct.

A new prem run by business men, with professional players would be a whole different ball game, new set up, new mindset, new era (not that I'm saying they would compete in europe initially)

Run by guys and their mates? Yeah okay....

The only part of this that is correct is the bold. The rest is a pipedream. As others have said all the top internationals will be playing overseas because the clubs can't afford them. Younger and inexperienced players get rushed in to recieve pastings from every other team in Europe. If a few good players emerge then they'll get nicked by richer clubs outside of Wales too. Your ideology is just ridiculous.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I would also like to see a prof prem that reverts to regions come HC time, so international players would be contracted centrally, the excitement of HC would be even greater with player selection from the 3 prof clubs, and competitiveness both domestically and in europe.

Lots of holes in the logic and finances, but I prefer to call them wrinkles, and a prof prem is very workable.

You've slammed central contracts previously and now you say this. I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean a Premiership that competes domestically and come Heineken Cup time they merge into Regions and play as Regions? It's not much different to what we have now. Moot points.

A professional prem is not workable.

by thebluesmancometh Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:46 pm

"Or can see the money men in the regions or the WRU kissing goodbye to the millions and millions they've invested in the the regions to go back to the system they had before which would need further money men and much more millions for these same people to get it up and running."

First key point Ive heard that isn't regurgatated nonsense. It would be difficult but at the end of the day some sort of compensation/ deal could be struck to ensure everyone was happy.

Stone please don't keep blurting out stuff that is far from true, we've adressed why there isnt enough talent, because of localisation and regionalism, not instead of it.

Morg
I havn't slammed central contracts, Ive always maintained they would be part of a prof prem, top 30 players possibly 2/3 per team. I have slated the way they are about to be doled by the WRU mind.

I've still heard nothing to state that a fully prof prem couldn't work.

RE the reasoning behind not being competitive in europe...

Scarlets just got smashed
Blues lost to the worst team in England
Dragons got pounded by a very average Wasps

Not to mention the Blues getting demolished by Ulster, Dragons smashed and Ospreys beaten by Italian club and Scottish clubs at home.

In what way are the regions hugely competitive against european teams now?

by bedfordwelsh Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:53 pm

But in the time since Regions have been formed we have won 3 Grand Slams. The players are obvioulsy there and seem to perform at an International level so maybe its the coahces are not good enough.

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