Regions at lowest point

First topic message reminder :

Surely I can't be the only fan of regional rugby to be feeling really down on the state we're all in. Before I know this wont go down well with Scarlets and O's fans, as they really are making the best of what they've got. My biggest worry is the standard of rugby on display. I attended the Dragons v Blues game and not only were they the weakest sides I've seen from these regions, the standard of play was appalling. Even Blues fans stood near me were commenting at how dire their side is, so what does that say about the Dragons?? I dont want to rubbish my region as I'm passionate about them, but the display on Friday was a complete embarrassment. Look at the Blues, getting thumped at home on consecutive weekends.
For me, I think that in Wales, we have several world class players, some very good players and below that, there is a big drop-off in standards. We have very little depth and it makes me wonder when people want a 5th region!! How poor would they be?
I watched the game on Friday and thought to myself that I hope Toby Faletau leaves the Dragons. If he stays at the Dragons he could well lose his welsh place. He's such a talent that he deserves so much better and I've no doubt that he and Lydiate will have no option other than to go go.
I take my hat off to the Scarlets. A few seasons ago they were the 4th placed region. They've turned that on it's head and how? Not by splashing cash, but by bringing through what seems like an endless amount of talent.
You know that by the end of the season, in the Rabies league, the 3 Irish provinces will be in the play-offs with 1 other from Wales or Scotland. The regions simply cannot compete in Europe. Not one will get into the quarters and yet Wales are grand slam winners!! Not that many players have gone abroad.
With the standard being so poor, attendances will surely decrease even further, yet Wales will sell-out for the autumn tests. I'd love to see the regions given more money to attract bigger names. That's the difference with the regions and the rest of Europe. I would like to see a limit on overseas players though to stop gross being brought in. But what would people rather, a successful national team or successful regions? Why can't we have both?
The national coaches must love seeing the youngsters blooded in the Rabies, but it doesn't bring success and only attracts die-hard followers. I watched the Gloucester v Bath Aviva game yesterday and was jealous. Jealous that there was a big derby, a packed house, two quality sides, high intensity and kicked off on a Saturday afternoon. What incentive was there for me to attend the Scarlets game on Friday? I couldn't possibly make a 7.05 KO on a Friday, but if I could, I'd have to be mad to go and watch that performance.
On a side-note. Just how bad is Sean Holley on Scrum V? Terrible!

Oh I see...

But there is a ceiling on the prem as an amateur comp that just isn't high enough to produce enough talent to each region.

I dunno mate, its certainly doing a good job so far of providing a platform for regional prospects to perform. Contracts or no, if they aren't performing in the prem they won't get called up to the region. That alone provides motivation for these players to up their performance. It would help if all clubs were on good terms with their regions, but its certainly starting to work well where I'm from

thebluesmancometh wrote:If anyone is suggesting that the prem is of anywhere near standard of professional rugby then this argument is over.

If you can't understand the difference between professional and amateur status then there is no point debating this at all.

Firstly the Welsh prem is not amateur, it is semi pro, secondly nobody is saying it is anywhere near the standard for pro rugby, yet, what we are saying is that it is there for the regions to use, to give squad and academy players a place to gain valuable game time, match fitness, you cannot tell me that Bucharest Wolves and Bucharest Oaks are better than our prem sides, yet the Blues are willing to give trials to players from their league before they give any players from the prem a chance. The prem is what it is, it will get better in time, that is why it has been altered so many times over the last few years, it is supposed to be a breeding ground for the regions to cut players, and this is what it should be used for, not Romania's top league which is amateur by the way.

Good spot about it being semi pro ant not amateur ld

Welcome again to Phil btw. I may be prone to exaggeration but I love my rugby, just appreciate it more when people can back up their own views instead of spending their time trying to unravel others'

I am also quite suspicious of this 40hr v 6hr thing, may have to investigate.....

Maes had sold it to me that there was nothing wrong with the regions and that everything was fine and dandy?

nathan wrote:Maes had sold it to me that there was nothing wrong with the regions and that everything was fine and dandy?

Maes thinks all things in the universe are fine and dandy. His eternal optimism is endearing.

After laying in a darkened room for several hours I have come to the conclusion that philBB is the fictitious product of a drunken collaboration between SmirnoffPriest and ScarletSpiderman at the Halfway - designed to drive Casartelli insane.

I will try my best to forgive. I will never forget.

LD, RD

I don't buy into semi pro, just because the players are receiving monetary gains from playing doesn't mean it is professional in any way (all though thats exactly what it is by definition)

And not sure who mentioned 40 hours in comparison to 6, the difference is far more like 16 hours compared to 6 (on field training/physiological work)

The very fact that the Blues are looking outside the prem to second rate teams/players highlights my point. The prem doesn't provide the development, it's the years the regions put into the players and the investment at age grade gives the players the platform, then it's the huge investment of the academies and colleges that turn the player into a regional player, the prem is suppose to be where the player hone their skills at the highest level before regional, which is exactly what it does, unfortunately that level is depressingly low, and so is the regional level directly above it.

If the prem was pro it would give every region 3/4 prospects per position all comitting their livelyhood and future to the game in wales. We wouldn't have a case of journeymen turning out with the kids/prospects, we'd have a player in every position looking to step up to regional level.

As in my original post, competition breeds competition!!!!

Well according to some Prem clubs they do 6-8hrs a week. Will see if I can find out from the Scarlets what they do

The scarlets will do double that, but it's not just the time spent training that makes the difference...

Theres the SnC sessions, individual gym time, the analysis work, recovery, active dynamic recovery, prehab/rehab, but most importantly the full comitment, knowing your career and livelyhood are based on your gains and performance. The absence of any outside stressors such as a full time job (Physiological and psychological).

And the most pertinent point is that generally the regional players are the ones spotted at s younger age and highlighted as most talented, they then recieve the higher calibre training from as young as 13, meaning senior academy players and prem players of the same age may have as much as 9/10 years quality coaching difference.

So the only example of an an enormous gap between WP and Rabo we have is Gareth Davies, who has had one or two games at Regional level, really? He looks alright from what I've seen.

thebluesmancometh wrote:The scarlets will do double that, but it's not just the time spent training that makes the difference...

Theres the SnC sessions, individual gym time, the analysis work, recovery, active dynamic recovery, prehab/rehab, but most importantly the full comitment, knowing your career and livelyhood are based on your gains and performance. The absence of any outside stressors such as a full time job (Physiological and psychological).

And the most pertinent point is that generally the regional players are the ones spotted at s younger age and highlighted as most talented, they then recieve the higher calibre training from as young as 13, meaning senior academy players and prem players of the same age may have as much as 9/10 years quality coaching difference.

We've been doing all that stuff in the Welsh regions for the last 9-10 years??? Blimey, what have they been doing in Irish provinces to win all them Heineken cups!

rugbydreamer wrote:Good spot about it being semi pro ant not amateur ld

Welcome again to Phil btw. I may be prone to exaggeration but I love my rugby, just appreciate it more when people can back up their own views instead of spending their time trying to unravel others'

I am also quite suspicious of this 40hr v 6hr thing, may have to investigate.....

Investigate away.

And I did back up my views concisely./

Morgannwg wrote:So the only example of an an enormous gap between WP and Rabo we have is Gareth Davies, who has had one or two games at Regional level, really? He looks alright from what I've seen.

Not only him, but I could easily point to players like Copeland and Czekaj who are ridiculously good at WP level but struggle at Pro12 rugby. Others would include James Down, Damien Welch, Watts-Jones.

When the Rags get a good number of first team players then they stroll to victory.

Surely we want our professional players to be more than "alright"?

Casartelli wrote:We've been doing all that stuff in the Welsh regions for the last 9-10 years??? Blimey, what have they been doing in Irish provinces to win all them Heineken cups!

Keeping all of their better players in Ireland.

rugbydreamer wrote:And yet still refuse to acknowledge that academy players/regional players getting game time in the Prem won't improve the standard of the players around them? You really don't think their experiences and approach don't influence them?

And I must have missed the list of players you gave sorry, or is it simply just Gareth Davies?

In which teams? I've already told you that you cannot use Llanelli and Cardiff as examples.

You seem to have missed quite a lot, which is a little bit frustrating as you then go on to claim things which have already been addressed and dismissed.

rugbydreamer wrote:No man, the debate was that someone thought the gulf was enormous without saying why, while the other tried to say it wasn't that big a gap and that standards were improving as they have to prove themselves in the prem first (despite academy/development contracts).

One then has spent their time trying to disprove the other whilst coming up with no reasons of their own

Personally I'm happy with how standards are improving at clubs like Llanelli and llandovery, still a long way to go but the quality is improving

There you go again....

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:And yet still refuse to acknowledge that academy players/regional players getting game time in the Prem won't improve the standard of the players around them? You really don't think their experiences and approach don't influence them?

And I must have missed the list of players you gave sorry, or is it simply just Gareth Davies?

In which teams? I've already told you that you cannot use Llanelli and Cardiff as examples.

You seem to have missed quite a lot, which is a little bit frustrating as you then go on to claim things which have already been addressed and dismissed.

Llandovery have a welsh international centre playing for them from the Scarlets, and a handful of other players with Scarlets experience and are sitting at the top of the Prem. If you look at the teams named by the Prem sides on any given weekend (and you know the regional squads) you would be very supirsed by how many regional players are playing in the Prem, and the way they are very evenly spread across the whole of the league.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Llandovery have a welsh international centre playing for them from the Scarlets, and a handful of other players with Scarlets experience and are sitting at the top of the Prem. If you look at the teams named by the Prem sides on any given weekend (and you know the regional squads) you would be very supirsed by how many regional players are playing in the Prem, and the way they are very evenly spread across the whole of the league.

The Llandovery team for the home game against Llanelli, Saturday 6 October 2012

15. Lee Rees
14. Chris Knight
13. Adam Warren
12. Jack Roberts
11. Matthew Jacobs
10. James Garland
9. Rhodri Williams

1. Owen Evans
2. Adam Yelland
3. Pete Edwards
4. Shaun Jones
5. Bryn Griffiths
6. Phil Day (Captain)
7. Shaun Miles
8. Richard Brooks

Subs from:

Andrew Jones
Wyn Jones
Luke Kendall
Lloyd Phillips
Llewellyn Jones
Thomas Ball
Rob Walters
Sam Soul
Cerith Rees

That's just two players, isn't it? Warren and Edwards.

Rhodri Williams is another, he played Heino rugby for the Scarlets last year, Jack roberts is also on the Scarlets' books. Actually so are Luke Kendall and Llewellyn Jones on the bench.

Tis nice to see Adam Yelland and Matthew Jacobs playing rugby though, i went to school with them both.. Both have had stints with the Scarlets

Oh and Phil BB, as I said y'day, most of my examples came from Llandovery, not Llanelli or Cardiff

Hasn't Lee Rees been on the bench for the Scarlets or played a game?

I dunno about him, not confusing him with Lee Williams? Mind you he could have played in some LV games I suppose.

rugbydreamer wrote:Rhodri Williams is another, he played Heino rugby for the Scarlets last year, Jack roberts is also on the Scarlets' books. Actually so are Luke Kendall and Llewellyn Jones on the bench.

Tis nice to see Adam Yelland and Matthew Jacobs playing rugby though, i went to school with them both.. Both have had stints with the Scarlets

Oh and Phil BB, as I said y'day, most of my examples came from Llandovery, not Llanelli or Cardiff

Williams is an Academy player. As is Llewellyn Jones.

Roberts seems to have been let go: w-ww.scarletfever.org/forum/jack-roberts-to-exeter_topic35006.html

I can't find any link about Kendall being involved. Do you have one? It would be an interesting read.

Which returns us to the point that the only regional players are Edwards and Warren.

No, def not thinking of Lee Bach (is he playing for Llanelli at the mo, by the way?). I think maybe Rees may have been on the bench for a LV game, not positive as my memories not the best, but I can remember seeing his name and thinking "who was he?", thinking he could have been part of another raft of young backs to start breaking through.

Then again I could have dreamed it in a vodka enduced haze!

Getting a bench spot for an LV= game doesn't make a "regional player".

I'm surprised by the lack of qualified definitions shown by many in this thread.

because there are rumours the Chiefs are interested you're automatically assuming we've let him go?

kendall has been discussed numerous times on the SF forum, or gasp shock horror, if he's not involved he's definitely one on the Scarlets' radar who could make the step up from the prem.

Williams has played for the Scarlets more than Warren, yet you're insiting on discounting him? tidy.

To be honest Phil, I think this is just a difference in opinion and if the best you can come up with is that "oh I watch both and I can see there's an enormous difference" and that's all you've got, I'm not sure how we can discuss this further.

So by playing for your region in a competition.....you're not a regional player? Right.

I still don't get why you're basing how competitive the Welsh Prem is, on examples of the system not working, PhilBB?

If the system works correctly then all the young promising players get taken up into the regional system, they get coaching SnC work, tactical advice, BUT also train with their prem team, play with their Prem team and learn from other similar players who are further down the road, and seasoned semi-pros. If the system works then no promising players should be missed from joining an academy (obviously a few do, but their the minority).

These players then play in the prem week-in week-out and are, to all intents and purposes Prem players and can form the spine of a Prem team - or at least give it an extra edge.

Yet you wish to ignore all the players that have come through the system and prove it's working and concentrate on the the few minority ones who have slipped through the net and have been picked up at a later date.

Surely once you have played for a regional team you become a regional player, pretty straight forward isn't it?

rugbydreamer wrote:because there are rumours the Chiefs are interested you're automatically assuming we've let him go?

kendall has been discussed numerous times on the SF forum, or gasp shock horror, if he's not involved he's definitely one on the Scarlets' radar who could make the step up from the prem.

Williams has played for the Scarlets more than Warren, yet you're insiting on discounting him? tidy.

To be honest Phil, I think this is just a difference in opinion and if the best you can come up with is that "oh I watch both and I can see there's an enormous difference" and that's all you've got, I'm not sure how we can discuss this further.

You're right, there's nowhere else to go with this because of your complete inability to read the posts written in reply to you. It's a pretty poor message board trick, by the way.

Rhodri Williams has played 19 first team games. Adam Warren has played 24. If you're going to try to be a smartarse then get your facts right.

rugbydreamer wrote:So by playing for your region in a competition.....you're not a regional player? Right.

Come back when you know the difference between prem player on loan, academy player, development contract player, regional player.

As noted before, research the pathway.

PhilBB wrote:
I'm surprised by the lack of qualified definitions shown by many in this thread.

Probably coz you seem to keep changing your point and I'm not sure many people quite know what your on about any more - other than "the Prem must be rubbish coz Gareth Davies is good at Prem level yet poor in the 2-3 games he's played for the Blues"

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:because there are rumours the Chiefs are interested you're automatically assuming we've let him go?

kendall has been discussed numerous times on the SF forum, or gasp shock horror, if he's not involved he's definitely one on the Scarlets' radar who could make the step up from the prem.

Williams has played for the Scarlets more than Warren, yet you're insiting on discounting him? tidy.

To be honest Phil, I think this is just a difference in opinion and if the best you can come up with is that "oh I watch both and I can see there's an enormous difference" and that's all you've got, I'm not sure how we can discuss this further.

You're right, there's nowhere else to go with this because of your complete inability to read the posts written in reply to you. It's a pretty poor message board trick, by the way.

Rhodri Williams has played 19 first team games. Adam Warren has played 24. If you're going to try to be a smartarse then get your facts right.

Ahh I see because you need to play 19+ games for the Scarlets to have been deemed a Scarlets player? Or am I missing the point again?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I still don't get why you're basing how competitive the Welsh Prem is, on examples of the system not working, PhilBB?

If the system works correctly then all the young promising players get taken up into the regional system, they get coaching SnC work, tactical advice, BUT also train with their prem team, play with their Prem team and learn from other similar players who are further down the road, and seasoned semi-pros. If the system works then no promising players should be missed from joining an academy (obviously a few do, but their the minority).

These players then play in the prem week-in week-out and are, to all intents and purposes Prem players and can form the spine of a Prem team - or at least give it an extra edge.

Yet you wish to ignore all the players that have come through the system and prove it's working and concentrate on the the few minority ones who have slipped through the net and have been picked up at a later date.

The young promising players enter the regional system at 15 years of age. The "system" starts well before WP rugby.

That's another point many on here seem to be missing.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Ahh I see because you need to play 19+ games for the Scarlets to have been deemed a Scarlets player? Or am I missing the point again?

No, that was my error. I was surprised by how many games he had played.

I'll add Williams to Warren and Edwards, to make 3 players in total.

ha Phil, you're an absolute hoot

Love taht you're wasting your time looking up these facts btw.

Honestly now, you have given what, 4 names? trying to back up that there's an "enormous" difference between the Prem and the regions. you've given nothing else, you've just been getting ratty about what qualifies as a regional player and what doesn't.

You don't let people count academy players because they get too much regional input, yet when an academy player plays for their region, they aren't then allowed to be called a regional player? why not then, is it because there's too much prem input?

You've not made much sense to me sorry Phil, think perhaps you haven't explained yourself properly (even if you think you have). Certainly no one else seems to be getting where you're coming from either.

Also it might help in terms of debating, if you don't tell people what they can and can not say. Just a suggestion

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Probably coz you seem to keep changing your point and I'm not sure many people quite know what your on about any more - other than "the Prem must be rubbish coz Gareth Davies is good at Prem level yet poor in the 2-3 games he's played for the Blues"

I haven't changed my point at all.

And it's 15 games, by the way. Not 2-3.

rugbydreamer wrote:ha Phil, you're an absolute hoot

Love taht you're wasting your time looking up these facts btw.

Honestly now, you have given what, 4 names? trying to back up that there's an "enormous" difference between the Prem and the regions. you've given nothing else, you've just been getting ratty about what qualifies as a regional player and what doesn't.

You don't let people count academy players because they get too much regional input, yet when an academy player plays for their region, they aren't then allowed to be called a regional player? why not then, is it because there's too much prem input?

You've not made much sense to me sorry Phil, think perhaps you haven't explained yourself properly (even if you think you have). Certainly no one else seems to be getting where you're coming from either.

Also it might help in terms of debating, if you don't tell people what they can and can not say. Just a suggestion

An Academy player remains an Academy player until he either signs a development contract or a full contract. That's the pathway.

In terms of debating, reading what is written in reply to you is a good starting point. Maybe you could give it a go?

And then you can have a learn of the development pathway.

So, you still aren't going to explain yourself as to the "enormous" difference between the Prem and Regions? You're just sticking to your four names? Nice.

You could also learn from reading whole responses too, instead of handpicking sections you prefer to disprove, instead of trying to actually explain yourself

rugbydreamer wrote:So, you still aren't going to explain yourself as to the "enormous" difference between the Prem and Regions? You're just sticking to your four names? Nice.

You could also learn from reading whole responses too, instead of handpicking sections you prefer to disprove, instead of trying to actually explain yourself

The sections that aren't disproven are, on the whole, agreed with. It's a shame that you try to pass off factual inaccuracies as the truth of the matter.

I've explained the gulf between the levels of Welsh rugby but I'm trying to explain that to somebody who doesn't even know of the pathway in place so maybe we should agree to differ and both be happy with our sentiments.

Fight! Fight! Fight!

I know there's a gulf Phil, I've even admitted to it, yet I haven't seen any other explanation from you that it's an "enormous" gulf other then you've watched both and you think that it is so therefore it's a fact


ha aye lucky

Well done on knowing the exact ins and outs on the pathway development btw Phil, can't believe even despite knowing it though, you're still of the view point that the gulf is "enormous".

Baffling, but aye, we'll agree to disagree

rugbydreamer wrote:Well done on knowing the exact ins and outs on the pathway development btw Phil, can't believe even despite knowing it though, you're still of the view point that the gulf is "enormous".

Knowing that pathway and watching both levels of rugby has allowed me to form that opinion. But, there we go.

Priest - Yeah Lee Rees has played for us in the LV=, and possibly the start of the league once. I remember because he made Lee Bach look like a giant.

PhilBB - Just thinking about the Scarlets boys in Llandovery, I believe Rhodri Williams, Pete the meat and Warren have all played HEC rugby, and Warren has played international. That is pretty good experience.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:PhilBB - Just thinking about the Scarlets boys in Llandovery, I believe Rhodri Williams, Pete the meat and Warren have all played HEC rugby, and Warren has played international. That is pretty good experience.

Yep, three full time players.

PhilBB - I said your changing your point as you started off sayuing there was a huge gulf, then instead of backing this up with proof you then go on to make claims about the differences between Prem players and acadmey players, and how academy players can't be counted as prem players regardless of if they play in the prem, you then following this start making claims that academy players can't be counted as regional players even if they play for the region.

And any time some one asks you for proof you just say that you've already provided proof, and occasionally say that your proof has already dismissed anothers claim - yet there's quite a few posters on here who didn't see this proof/evidence other than Gareth Davies (apologies for not realising he'd played 15 games), and mentions of Czcekai, Copeland and Welch - Czcekai has international experience, and Welch was a decent player for the Scarlets, def not great but seemed to be let go for attitude problems.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:PhilBB - I said your changing your point as you started off sayuing there was a huge gulf, then instead of backing this up with proof you then go on to make claims about the differences between Prem players and acadmey players, and how academy players can't be counted as prem players regardless of if they play in the prem, you then following this start making claims that academy players can't be counted as regional players even if they play for the region.

And any time some one asks you for proof you just say that you've already provided proof, and occasionally say that your proof has already dismissed anothers claim - yet there's quite a few posters on here who didn't see this proof/evidence other than Gareth Davies (apologies for not realising he'd played 15 games), and mentions of Czcekai, Copeland and Welch - Czcekai has international experience, and Welch was a decent player for the Scarlets, def not great but seemed to be let go for attitude problems.

Sigh.

The gulf is huge and I confirmed that by noting how players shine at the lower level but struggle at the higher level. There are a number of examples of this kind of player. Maybe you'd all like Trevett and Harford, too?

The conversation was then hijacked by those seemingly unaware of the development pathway of players as they were pointing to already professional players as potentially professional players.....

What made you think that Welch was let go for attitude problems?

Which players?

So far (correct me if I'm wrong) you've listed
Gareth Davies
Damien Welch
Czcekai
Copeland
Trevitt
Harford

I don't think that anyone was unaware these players were part of the academies, just that people were arguing that they add to the quality within the Prem by playing in the prem for Premiership teams and training with the other Prem players. nothing more, nothing less (as far as I'm aware).
re: Welch, It's what I heard on here and on Scarlets fever, and that's why he wasn't played above Welch, Day, Timani and our backrow players (who were prefered as lock cover to him). I can't say it's gospel truth, just what I heard.

Thank you for the list by the way

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Which players?

So far (correct me if I'm wrong) you've listed
Gareth Davies
Damien Welch
Czcekai
Copeland
Trevitt
Harford

I don't think that anyone was unaware these players were part of the academies, just that people were arguing that they add to the quality within the Prem by playing in the prem for Premiership teams and training with the other Prem players. nothing more, nothing less (as far as I'm aware).
re: Welch, It's what I heard on here and on Scarlets fever, and that's why he wasn't played above Welch, Day, Timani and our backrow players (who were prefered as lock cover to him). I can't say it's gospel truth, just what I heard.

Thank you for the list by the way

None of them were Academy players.

What was stated was a clear misunderstanding of the role of the full time players playing WP rugby. These players were shown as some kind of example of how the WP creates players who can become full time professionals, despite them already being full time professionals.

Apologies - I wasn't very clear, I meant "nobody was unaware they were academy players" in regards to the players dreamer and others had listed ie Warren, Rhodri Williams, Lee ect.

PhilBB wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Which players?

So far (correct me if I'm wrong) you've listed
Gareth Davies
Damien Welch
Czcekai
Copeland
Trevitt
Harford

I don't think that anyone was unaware these players were part of the academies, just that people were arguing that they add to the quality within the Prem by playing in the prem for Premiership teams and training with the other Prem players. nothing more, nothing less (as far as I'm aware).
re: Welch, It's what I heard on here and on Scarlets fever, and that's why he wasn't played above Welch, Day, Timani and our backrow players (who were prefered as lock cover to him). I can't say it's gospel truth, just what I heard.

Thank you for the list by the way

None of them were Academy players.

What was stated was a clear misunderstanding of the role of the full time players playing WP rugby. These players were shown as some kind of example of how the WP creates players who can become full time professionals, despite them already being full time professionals.

But that point doesn't relate to the gulf between the Prem and the Rabo