Regions at lowest point

First topic message reminder :

Surely I can't be the only fan of regional rugby to be feeling really down on the state we're all in. Before I know this wont go down well with Scarlets and O's fans, as they really are making the best of what they've got. My biggest worry is the standard of rugby on display. I attended the Dragons v Blues game and not only were they the weakest sides I've seen from these regions, the standard of play was appalling. Even Blues fans stood near me were commenting at how dire their side is, so what does that say about the Dragons?? I dont want to rubbish my region as I'm passionate about them, but the display on Friday was a complete embarrassment. Look at the Blues, getting thumped at home on consecutive weekends.
For me, I think that in Wales, we have several world class players, some very good players and below that, there is a big drop-off in standards. We have very little depth and it makes me wonder when people want a 5th region!! How poor would they be?
I watched the game on Friday and thought to myself that I hope Toby Faletau leaves the Dragons. If he stays at the Dragons he could well lose his welsh place. He's such a talent that he deserves so much better and I've no doubt that he and Lydiate will have no option other than to go go.
I take my hat off to the Scarlets. A few seasons ago they were the 4th placed region. They've turned that on it's head and how? Not by splashing cash, but by bringing through what seems like an endless amount of talent.
You know that by the end of the season, in the Rabies league, the 3 Irish provinces will be in the play-offs with 1 other from Wales or Scotland. The regions simply cannot compete in Europe. Not one will get into the quarters and yet Wales are grand slam winners!! Not that many players have gone abroad.
With the standard being so poor, attendances will surely decrease even further, yet Wales will sell-out for the autumn tests. I'd love to see the regions given more money to attract bigger names. That's the difference with the regions and the rest of Europe. I would like to see a limit on overseas players though to stop gross being brought in. But what would people rather, a successful national team or successful regions? Why can't we have both?
The national coaches must love seeing the youngsters blooded in the Rabies, but it doesn't bring success and only attracts die-hard followers. I watched the Gloucester v Bath Aviva game yesterday and was jealous. Jealous that there was a big derby, a packed house, two quality sides, high intensity and kicked off on a Saturday afternoon. What incentive was there for me to attend the Scarlets game on Friday? I couldn't possibly make a 7.05 KO on a Friday, but if I could, I'd have to be mad to go and watch that performance.
On a side-note. Just how bad is Sean Holley on Scrum V? Terrible!

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:So by playing for your region in a competition.....you're not a regional player? Right.

Come back when you know the difference between prem player on loan, academy player, development contract player, regional player.

As noted before, research the pathway.

I think they should have to wear coloured armbands during games, and off the field actually, so we have a chance of spotting the difference.

Do the WRU have the definitions on their website? Can players move between categories mid season? And back again?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
But that point doesn't relate to the gulf between the Prem and the Rabo

Those claiming the gulf to be small were using already professional players as an example of this, forgetting that the number of this professionals is small when compared to the number of basically paid amateurs.

PhilBB wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
But that point doesn't relate to the gulf between the Prem and the Rabo

Those claiming the gulf to be small were using already professional players as an example of this, forgetting that the number of this professionals is small when compared to the number of basically paid amateurs.

When does a paid amateur become a professional????

Knew I should've stayed off here today, goddammmmit.

No one said it was small, Phil, they were arguing that it wasn't enormous, while pointing to players that haven't come up through age grade who have been able to make the step up (which is where you then git bogged down with trying to disprove that instead of explaining your own view) .

And here we are, at an impasse. Although I do quite like cas' suggestion of diff coloured armbands.

rugbydreamer wrote:No one said it was small, Phil, they were arguing that it wasn't enormous, while pointing to players that haven't come up through age grade who have been able to make the step up (which is where you then git bogged down with trying to disprove that instead of explaining your own view) .

And here we are, at an impasse. Although I do quite like cas' suggestion of diff coloured armbands.

That was easy to disprove. Fenby being my favourite.

PWC to Newcastle to Llanelli is some form of proof of the WP not being that far behind Pro12 in terms of quality.

No. Goodness, you really did miss the point didn't you?

rugbydreamer wrote:No. Goodness, you really did miss the point didn't you?

I seem to have done so, yes, as I seem to think that you raised Fenby as a positive for the WP.

I must admit to being surprised at your general level of excitement for all of this. It's almost as though Lydon's enforced reforms were unnecessary.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:No one said it was small, Phil, they were arguing that it wasn't enormous, while pointing to players that haven't come up through age grade who have been able to make the step up (which is where you then git bogged down with trying to disprove that instead of explaining your own view) .

And here we are, at an impasse. Although I do quite like cas' suggestion of diff coloured armbands.

That was easy to disprove. Fenby being my favourite.

PWC to Newcastle to Llanelli is some form of proof of the WP not being that far behind Pro12 in terms of quality.

I thought your point of view was that the Prem WAS a long way behind the Rabo?

I no understand any more!!!!

Me neither cas.

Think we've a new poster that can't back up their own statements other than "ive watched, I think this therefore its fact"

Although he does seem to take delight in nit picking the comments of others.

Still at least we've an expert on pathways now in our midst

Ah, the final piece of the jigsaw. If you cannot play the ball then play the man.

rugbydreamer wrote:
Me neither cas.

Think we've a new poster that can't back up their own statements other than "ive watched, I think this therefore its fact"

Although he does seem to take delight in nit picking the comments of others.

Still at least we've an expert on pathways now in our midst

As an aside, is that you researching the training hours per week via twitter?

PhilBB wrote:Ah, the final piece of the jigsaw. If you cannot play the ball then play the man.

Assuming, phil, that you are not, in actual fact, ScarletSpiderman pulling off the greatest wind-up ever seen on 606, then I still salute you as bringing something never seen before to the table. I can't work out whether this makes you a Christian Cullen or a Derwyn Jones, but I respect the hint of evil genius that is lurking here somewhere. Bravo, sir.

I give up, I'm sorry for the 2nd time on this thread I'm too exhausted to continue - maybe tomorrow though...

PhilBB wrote:Ah, the final piece of the jigsaw. If you cannot play the ball then play the man.

???

Ha my goodness, its a welsh portnoy! Not sure I can cope


For your info Phil, portnoy was a rather unusual English character on these forums.

rugbydreamer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Ah, the final piece of the jigsaw. If you cannot play the ball then play the man.

???

Ha my goodness, its a welsh portnoy! Not sure I can cope


For your info Phil, portnoy was a rather unusual English character on these forums.

And did you research the training hours per week via twitter?

Yet more proof you haven't read my posts properly

Careful Dreamer, Philly is fishing. He didnt get a rise yet so is changing tact

rugbydreamer wrote:Yet more proof you haven't read my posts properly

And proof positive that you were writing on here on a topic you clearly knew next to nothing about.

Fair enough. I'll try to read more of your stuff to see where you're coming from.

red_stag wrote:Careful Dreamer, Philly is fishing. He didnt get a rise yet so is changing tact

I know.

And maybe dear Phil, you've given me an article idea, and i want to hear facts from actual clubs, not posters that think paid players are amateurs

The telling bit was that you had to use twitter.

It's funny how you take this snide approach on a topic you've been found wanting on. Hey ho, on to the next one.

Snide? Huh,no not really.

And Twitter is one of the quickest ways of getting feedback these days. Not white sure why its "telling".

And yet we still await you to back up your point. Hey Ho indeed

rugbydreamer wrote:Snide? Huh,no not really.

And Twitter is one of the quickest ways of getting feedback these days. Not white sure why its "telling".

And yet we still await you to back up your point. Hey Ho indeed

Continually writing "you've not backed up your point" when it has been backed up is a message board game of old. It only makes the author look daft.

It's telling because a) it shows that you didn't know and b) it shows that you couldn't telephone somebody who would know.

Still, that's done now. I'll look forward to reading your article on your weekend away. Enjoy Clermont. It's awesome. Ask Regan how he's getting on with the horses.

What on earth difference does it make whether you telephone or tweet? You get the info either way
And you can't have backed up your point as no one else on this thread seems to think.so either.

And cheers, article could be slightly delayed, depends on how long I take to recover!

Joe Lydon backed up my point.

Well done Phil on sticking with this debate. For a new member I think you've been treated quite poorly yet you've replied with facts, great knowledge and good grace. The suggestion nobody knows what you are getting at is untrue, just because we don't always comment does not mean we are not reading and agreeing. I hope to see more of your observations and opinions and hope this thread has not put you off expressing them.

Much as I hate agreeing with a pair of tarts from Cardiff Phil and The Blues Man are right here. The game time and skills learnt in the Prem are no doubt a valuable contribution but the gulf between amateur and pro is largely about conditioning. You cannot develop the strength, speed and durability to play against other pros by playing against amateurs. Hence why players move down and look good and move up and look poor. Darren Waters was held up as an example from my region but as much as I am a fan he has all the skills and gamesmanship he needed nearly a full season of conditioning before he was ready and is horrendously snappy now he's made the step up. There are numerous other examples from the Dragons as our demand on the Prem is arguably greater, Burns, Coombesy, Poole, etc - all good enough rugby players no doubt but they will never be as good athletically as the academy boys who've been at it since their teens.

Valleys Boy, Phil, Stone; sorry I got lost. What are you talking about again?

The gap between pro rugby and semi pro rugby - or any contact sport I guess - imo is all about conditioning and physicality. That's why I agreed with Phil above, in that the Welsh Prem is insufficient for developing pro level players. Skills and game management etc can be applied at both levels but to make it as a full pro imo requires a level of conditioning beyond those who have not been exposed to it at an early age.

I can see where people are coming from that there is a gulf between semi-pro and pro level, the same as there is a gulf between regional and international rugby.

But surely that is common sense. However I do believe that there are probably enough players int he semi-pros who are capable to make the step up to regional rugby, and that the welsh prem is doing what is required of it. Look at the under 20s side, the majority of them are playing in the welsh prem. Yes they are (or most are) on regional developement contracts, but they are getting the majority of their game time at the semi-pro level.

Stepping up from semi-pro to pro may take a bit of adjustment, but that is to be expected as people would expect to see a player given a bit of time to bed into the international setup. After all there are very few players who get called up into the welsh squad, and start every game from then on are there.

Ill give my two cents on the original post. I think that the answer to the question are the regions at their lowest point depends from what point of view you are coming from.

In terms or pure rugby results if you are a regional fan and only concerned with regional results it is a mixed bag. The Scarlets are truly an exciting team with a good young potent backline, which, with the platform will compete with the best in Europe. However now, as in recent years they struggle to provide the platform against the bigger packs. However I think they have recruited well in their SH signings in the second row and I am genuinly excited by Samson Lee, and not just because he duffed up a very poor Dragons pack. The guy demolished the AB U 20 scrum in the JWC.

I think the Ospreys are doing ok. They still have a very good tight 5 and will do well this year. Biggar seems to have developed nicely and is now making good decisions and not just sticking to his strong kicking game.

From a rugby perspective it is only the blues and Dragons who are struggling. This is point blank due to both sides not having a front five. However for all four regions to have strong front fives that compete in Europe consistently you are asking for 4 sets of tight five forwards who are close to international standard. When at any point in time have Wales as a nation been able to do that? Answer probably never. Could even England or France be able to put out 4 sets of French or English tight 5 probably not. The reason why others are able is becuase they buy it in. Hence Blues/Dragons are having to promote from within (the likes of phil price, buck, coundley, sam parry, coombes) and frankly and unfortunately they are perhaps not up to the standard, fact of life im afraid.

However from a national point of view howley and co must be licking their lips. They have near as dam it four options in every position in Wales to look at to to see who has potential, and porbably another 20 players playing in high level leagues abroad, why is that so bad for the national game?

Gavin - I think that people forget who is playing abroad, and in what positions. The backs who are not longer based in Wales all have players who are international standard (or nearing it) replacing them in their regions. Phillips left, and Rhys Webb has looked good. Brew left and Tom Prydie and Dan Evans are looking good. Hook leaves and Biggar and Beck are getting better, etc etc. The only place where the players going to play outside of Wales has weakened the regions is in the front row, Gethin Jenkins and Paul James are notable absences from their regions, but are playing in leagues where their abilities as props are going to be tested, and hopefully improved, so for the international side that is not really too much of an issue either.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I can see where people are coming from that there is a gulf between semi-pro and pro level, the same as there is a gulf between regional and international rugby.

But surely that is common sense. However I do believe that there are probably enough players int he semi-pros who are capable to make the step up to regional rugby, and that the welsh prem is doing what is required of it. Look at the under 20s side, the majority of them are playing in the welsh prem. Yes they are (or most are) on regional developement contracts, but they are getting the majority of their game time at the semi-pro level.

Stepping up from semi-pro to pro may take a bit of adjustment, but that is to be expected as people would expect to see a player given a bit of time to bed into the international setup. After all there are very few players who get called up into the welsh squad, and start every game from then on are there.

the welsh prem is doing what is required of it.

Dying, I agree!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Gavin - I think that people forget who is playing abroad, and in what positions. The backs who are not longer based in Wales all have players who are international standard (or nearing it) replacing them in their regions. Phillips left, and Rhys Webb has looked good. Brew left and Tom Prydie and Dan Evans are looking good. Hook leaves and Biggar and Beck are getting better, etc etc. The only place where the players going to play outside of Wales has weakened the regions is in the front row, Gethin Jenkins and Paul James are notable absences from their regions, but are playing in leagues where their abilities as props are going to be tested, and hopefully improved, so for the international side that is not really too much of an issue either.

I think young welsh lads are filling the void left by players moving abroad.

Front row is now looking an area of promise not concern. Bevington, Jarvis, Sampson Lee are all showing that they do have what it takes. I think Ken Owen has already done that, Scott Baldwin is waiting in the wings.

We have four good locks, three of which are still in Wales and in very very good form.. Youngsters coming through look good and have five years to mature into future internationals. James Goode and Down. Richard Kelly and young Joel Galley also look promising.

Competition for the backrow is superb, with all four regions supplying guys who could fit in and out of the welsh XV.

Half back is the issue really. There are plenty of young lads wanting to step into the room left by Stephen Jones and Mike Phillips, they are generally playing well, yes even Priestland (despite his poor goal kicking).

Centres coming out of everywhere from the recently established lads like Scott Williams and Beck, the first choice regulars like Roberts and JD2 then the up and coming players like Dixon, Warren, Williams.

Back three losing Shane and Byrne has not left as huge a gap as we anticipated the youngsters look potentially as strong too, North and Cuthbert are proven at International level, Robinson, Prydie, Walker, below them Morgan.

We are in a good place to focus on a good European year for the regions, many players are not known to others but are playing very well.

Good start by the ospreys last night, lets hope Scarlets, Blues and Dragons impose their game and trust their ability too.

"We are in a good place to focus on a good European year for the regions, many players are not known to others but are playing very well."

Sorry mate but wish I had seen this comment yesterday and I wouldve eluded to 3 hidings for the others!!!!

The names you mention in your lists are depressing more than anything, I mean Down the Blues lock is 25/26 isn't he??? oh and rubbish!!!

There are a few real promising props coming through but most other players are hugely flawed in key ways!!!

Down is so badly conditioned (i.e. way too light and slight) that it can only be by design. Davies employed so many conditioners in the summer, mostly interns, to get the players lighter and "fitter".

It's now, as was obvious, nicely backfiring.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Sorry mate but wish I had seen this comment yesterday and I wouldve eluded to 3 hidings for the others!!!!

Cardiff Blues lost by one point away from home and you call that a thrashing....? The got an away LBP.

Scarlets were doing just fine until a man down, then the competition was over.

Dragons picked a weakened team to play Wasps, god only knows why.

Ospreys garnered their compulsory five points

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Sorry mate but wish I had seen this comment yesterday and I wouldve eluded to 3 hidings for the others!!!!

Cardiff Blues lost by one point away from home and you call that a thrashing....? The got an away LBP.

Scarlets were doing just fine until a man down, then the competition was over.

Dragons picked a weakened team to play Wasps, god only knows why.

Ospreys garnered their compulsory five points

To be honest looking at it as points in the table

it was 6 for and 18 against. That is to be fair a poor result.

maestegmafia wrote:Dragons picked a weakened team to play Wasps, god only knows why.

Because Darren Edwards is a complete idiot and ridiculously out of his depth.

Risca Rev wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Dragons picked a weakened team to play Wasps, god only knows why.

Because Darren Edwards is a complete idiot and ridiculously out of his depth.

Dragons fans said the same thing about every single coach after Mike Ruddock. It takes you about a year to come to the conclusion it is the coaches fault and nothing else and then he gets frustrated and either steps down or gets sacked.

Dragons problems aren't with Edwards. Your forwards need a better coach. You need more talented players in your squad, backs and forwards.

A first team Dragons XV is a good side, on their day they can give anyone a bloody nose. But a few injuries and they are stuffed.

Robling is not as good as Jones, Davies as Evans, Evans as Lydiate etc etc etc

Last year's Dragons forwards coach seems to be doing well as this year's Turks forward coach......

PhilBB wrote:Last year's Dragons forwards coach seems to be doing well as this year's Turks forward coach......

You noticed that too...!

There was nothing wrong with the first choice Dragons pack a year ago and previously to that.

maestegmafia wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Last year's Dragons forwards coach seems to be doing well as this year's Turks forward coach......

You noticed that too...!

There was nothing wrong with the first choice Dragons pack a year ago and previously to that.

Apart from it being full of players rejected elsewhere and generally being of a relatively poor standard, of course.

The Newport GD just have some woefully poor players.

It is nobody else's fault when he decided to send a weakened side on our first game in a competition. That's complete idiocy.

We need better forwards, not backs. There's nothing new there and I can't entirely blame Edwards for that, though he has had enough time to build his squad.

There was nothing wrong with the forwards last year? Really?

Risca Rev wrote:It is nobody else's fault when he decided to send a weakened side on our first game in a competition. That's complete idiocy.

We need better forwards, not backs. There's nothing new there and I can't entirely blame Edwards for that, though he has had enough time to build his squad.

There was nothing wrong with the forwards last year? Really?

Last year they were probably the best pack in Wales after the Ospreys...!

maestegmafia wrote:
Last year they were probably the best pack in Wales after the Ospreys...!

Give over.

maestegmafia wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:It is nobody else's fault when he decided to send a weakened side on our first game in a competition. That's complete idiocy.

We need better forwards, not backs. There's nothing new there and I can't entirely blame Edwards for that, though he has had enough time to build his squad.

There was nothing wrong with the forwards last year? Really?

Last year they were probably the best pack in Wales after the Ospreys...!

Cobblers!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:It is nobody else's fault when he decided to send a weakened side on our first game in a competition. That's complete idiocy.

We need better forwards, not backs. There's nothing new there and I can't entirely blame Edwards for that, though he has had enough time to build his squad.

There was nothing wrong with the forwards last year? Really?

Last year they were probably the best pack in Wales after the Ospreys...!

Cobblers!

Actually your right Im thinking the season before when they had Burn and Adam jones in great form as well as Toby, GT, Bearman and Lyds.

Billy Vunipola definitely outplayed his 2 year older cousin Toby Faletau on Sunday.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Billy Vunipola definitely outplayed his 2 year older cousin Toby Faletau on Sunday.

And neither pay any relevence to their native Tonga.

Bad day for Faletau, unusual for him he is far more often the best player on the pitch.