Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

by Diggers Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

Of course there are shades of grey but ultimately nobody can be sent to jail for saying they would like to kiddy fiddle but won't as it's illegal and cannot include consent by definition.
They go to jail when they break the law by looking at images or worse acts. So what do you do, change the laws ? Having an open debate won't change the laws, it will still come down to the same thing.
So whether they are deemed evil by society or not is ultimately fairly irrelevant as far as I can see. The end game remains the same.

by super_realist Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:45 pm

Exactly, independence is the most stupid, backward thing I can think of.

by JAS Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:05 pm

Indeed...I did think slightly differently when Thatcher was in the midst of ripping the industrial heart out of Scotland but what's done is done and it can't be undone by now going it alone.

Can you just imagine the mess if independence had actually happened 5 or 6 years ago? So it's Oct 2008 and Fred the Shred phones up SPM Soapy...
"Eh hello Alec howzit gaun?"
"Oh everything is hunky dory my all conquering favourite banker, what can I do you for?"
"Erm, wee bit of a cash flow issue Eck, see aw that Oil money you keep banging on about...gonnae gie me some, on Tic like, I'll pay ye back"
"How much Fred?"
"45 billion Alec"
"Whiiiiitttt!!!!"
"Haud on Fred, the other lines ringing"
"Hello Alec it's me the heid of HBOS - we need some dosh mate, a good few billion"
"Och naw....weeer DOOOOMED!!"

by super_realist Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:07 pm

I passed Salmond on a university stairwell once. Should have pushed the fat git down.

by JAS Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:10 pm

Must've been a wide staircase!!!

by super_realist Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:16 pm

Used to see his lego haired halfwit deputy in a coffee shop in Edinburgh too. I could have assassinated most of the SNP and I missed my chance.

by McLaren Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:35 pm

If Scotland goes independent I wonder if we get to keep our UK passports?

I am not defending RBS or Fatty but there is no way to predict what would have happened to Scottish banks in an independent Scotland.

If we still use the pound our monetary policy would be set by the bank of England for starters.

I would assume the banks would have the choice to remain UK registered companies and remain regulated by the FSA?

It is certainly possible that our biggest banks will end up as UK banks and not Scottish banks.

Therefore it would still be the UK government that would bail them out. Even if they were Scottish banks their collapse would have brought down the UK/London banking system.

Which makes you wonder whether an independent Scotland faces a moral hazard problem when setting its own banking regulations. It knows that any bank integrated into the UK banking system will be bailed out by the UK government. So Scotland does not have to ensure its banking regulations protect against all the crazy practises of old as someone else will pick up the tab.

Whatever the structure of banking I really hope fatty fails in 2014 never to be heard of again.

by dynamark Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:41 pm

Lance Armstrong anyone.?
Banged to rights and unlike Jimmy Saville still around to defend himself.

by McLaren Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:47 pm

I am not defending lance but where is the science and actual evidence. I dont much care for a document full of people he beat for years and who have the need to vindacte thier own drug usage.

If anyone has read the report or has a link to the parts where his samples are analysed or other forensic evidence is put forward I would be very interested to read it.

There is no doubt he took something I just want to read the hard facts.

by JAS Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:50 pm

I think the banking crisis is a good example of something that wasn't foreseen and therefore poses questions about how to deal with such an event that the SNP havent got the first clue about how to start answering.

It also illustrates how intrinsically linked we are and how tedious it would be to pick things apart in a way that everybody agreed. To me, national governments and other collective groupings have got FAR more serious things to concern themselves with than sorting out our independence.

Incidentally Mac if the worst happened, you couldn't call the UK the UK any more as it simply wouldn't be U. To be pedantic the Union Jack would become obsolete (or changed to just include the red & white bits.

by SmithersJones Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:55 pm

Cycling has always been full of drug cheats. If these allegations are true, they'll be by no means unique. It just so happens that USADA have for whatever reason gone after Armstrong in a big way, for whatever reason (how long ago did he retire?).

Can't imagine there is a FADA, and even if there is they're not going to drag their national sport down, same goes for Italy, Belgium, Spain etc. Lance must have peed off the wrong person!

by incontinentia Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:59 pm

super_realist wrote:Used to see his lego haired halfwit deputy in a coffee shop in Edinburgh too. I could have assassinated most of the SNP and I missed my chance.

super you're in flying form today, Cyclops Harrington another classic.

by Diggers Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:02 pm

So does Armstrong end up in clink and having to repay all his prizemoney ?
How the mighty fall.

by JAS Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:05 pm

I'd like to know the hard facts on Armstrong too, there is no doubt he took EPO as it is an essential part of the recovery process from Chemo.

The question is I suppose, did he systematically keep taking it afterwards and if so why did testing never pick it up? Did he dodge the tests? Were test results held back? What? Why is it that all the allegations finally took their toll after he retired? There were rumours during his career but why never a declared positive test?

by kwinigolfer Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:10 pm

Perhaps the "Jack" would have room for a dragon?

I'm with Mac on Armstrong; we have similar in the USA with Major League Baseball:
Benign indifference while so many top guys were strutting their stuff and bringing gazillions into the game. Then widespread villification when someone squeals, whether in their self-interest or not.
Draw the line when players/participants are caught red-handed, but TDeF officials, like MLB owners, were too busy pocketing the proceeds to worry too much about how performances might have been enhanced.

To carry the discussion further, the whole issue of drugs in golf has been swept aside since Gary Player's premature ejaculation on the subject and the banning of Doug Barron. Do we really think there's nothing going on? Not aware that there was anything other than a boys will be boys reaction when Garrigus spouted on about doing joints during Nationwide play.
We'll find out more when these guys retire, no doubt.

by super_realist Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:11 pm

I imagine Armstrong could potentially be held liable for defrauding the US taxpayer VIA his US postal sponsorship which wouldn't have stumped up for a team without his fame.

by incontinentia Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:20 pm

kwini, i'm sure no-one minds that much about recreational drug use in golf (or any sport) but rather performance enhancers.

Anyway I would have thought for a golfer the less drugs in your system the better, Tiger Woods has given up caffeine to prevent hand twitching during putts and even went without painkillers in Torrey Pines because of how they would affect his touch on the greens.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:26 pm

JAS wrote:I think the banking crisis is a good example of something that wasn't foreseen and therefore poses questions about how to deal with such an event that the SNP havent got the first clue about how to start answering...

Hmm. Don't know about you but loads of people I know were all wondering how things appeared so rosy with a housing bubble etc etc. Loads of lay people said it couldn't last and didn't make any rational sense but oh no, those Masters of the Universe ( Laugh

) knew better.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:32 pm

Armstrong guilty as charged it would seem and there's significantly more evidence than re. Saville. Independent expert blood analyses, evidence of payments to UCI, witness statements etc etc.
Always had the impression he was a nasty piece of work. Hope the mud sticks when USADA's info has been analysed. One thing's for sure, Armstrong's unwillingness to challenge USADA on this is damning and this from someone who's such a 'fighter'.

by McLaren Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:41 pm

Navy

Not sure any lay person really understands the financial markets and macroeconomics but I agree that some academics did see the current economic situation coming. And in quite great detail from at least 2005.

On armstrong

I see no difference between him and Contedor other than one's national union went after them and the others didn't.

Given that it seems no one has won a TDF clean for quite some time what are the chances Wiggins is clean?

by SmithersJones Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:53 pm

Of course Wiggins is clean. He's a British national hero. It's only because Johnny Foreigner has had to cut down on the drugs that we're finally able to compete on a level playing field, and hey presto suddenly we're world class. Coincidence? I don't think so! Whistle

by JAS Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Aye it does make you wonder about the other TdF legends...Indurain, Hinault, Mercx even. Of course us Brits never took drugs....what did wee Tommy die of on Mont Ventoux again?

by **navyblueshorts** Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:49 pm

Mac

Wasn't academics I was thinking of. Even lay people couldn't see how the bubble could be sustainable.

Re. Armstrong, what difference does it make if others are doping? That's no justification for Armstrong doing it. Why should Armstrong be a multi-millionaire when what's allowed him to get all those endorsements etc is out and out cheating?

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:08 am

SmithersJones wrote:Of course Wiggins is clean. He's a British national hero. It's only because Johnny Foreigner has had to cut down on the drugs that we're finally able to compete on a level playing field, and hey presto suddenly we're world class. Coincidence? I don't think so!

He might be clean but of course he might not. Time will tell. Was he tested after his Olympics medal?

by Doon the Water Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:23 am

mystiroakey wrote:BTW have you all not heard the romours about him before- I could have sworn there have been allegations made about him even since his fame on TV(fix it) but none stuck for lack of evidence- Am i imagining this, because everyone now keeps saying these women have waited untill he died..

I used to play golf with a Radio 2 DJ in the early 1970's, he told me about Saville then.
The BBC must have known for over 40 years and did nothing. Makes you sick.
That is the story and I think it will roll on.

by Diggers Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:01 am

I was listening toa program a couple of months ago about road cycling. Basically it was a sceintific study and they had been doing if for years. The findings when Contador and Armstrong where at their peak were off the scale, as she put it beyond normal human capabilities. However this year they are at a high but believeable level.
So basically they arent as quick ast hey were, so maybe they are clean or maybe its just a bad bunch of racers who are also juiced but just arent as quick.
Id like to think it was the former but who knows. Lets face it we'd all like to think Bolt was clean but if we were to examine the history of the very best sprinters in recent years then maybe its dioubtful though again I seriously hope that is not the case. It would virtually kill track and field.

by super_realist Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:13 am

Is there a sport where there isn't a drugs culture? I doubt it.

by McLaren Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:23 am

Super/digs

Some good points there. I often wonder if cycling has such a wide spread doping issue because the authorities actually want to find those that cheat. Cycling has probably the longest history of doping, and one which is littered with doping tragedies and scandals. Other sports do not seem to have suffered the public issues of doping for as long as cycling has and therefore when athletes dope in other sports it is seen as a rogue athlete and not a fundamental issue in the sport.

Given the particularly poor public image it has, cycling has more pressure to get clean compared to other sports. If another sport had its reputation so badly damaged by doping that it needed to ensure it was clean would they start to find just as many cases as in cycling? Maybe some of the US guys can shed some light on how baseball reacted?

If football, for example, decided to spend millions developing techniques to catch even the most advanced doping methods would we suddenly find the same rate of doping in football?

I just don’t believe cycling is alone in the rates of doping that it has, rather, other sports just haven’t looked hard enough.

by super_realist Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:32 am

I'm pretty sure there has to be some drugs in football Mac, it's such a big sport that at some level there must be some cheating going on, although it's not the most demanding of sports physically there must be some who know they won't be tested and feel they can get some sort of benefit from it.

I'm presuming in golf there might be some who don't take drugs so they can train harder (it is golf after all, and 99% could never consider themselves proper athletes) but perhaps emotional stabilisers, or nerve inhibitors might be at large in golf.
There has certainly been some suspicious "injury" layoffs.

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:35 am

super_realist wrote:Is there a sport where there isn't a drugs culture? I doubt it.

Surely golf? Mind you I know a guy that supplies cocaine to one of the US Ryder cup team every time he is in Ireland.

by super_realist Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:37 am

What makes you think there isn't a culture of golf? Fair play and honesty?

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:38 am

super_realist wrote:What makes you think there isn't a culture of golf? Fair play and honesty?

Just not sure how drugs would be of a huge benefit in golf as obviously it isnt an endurance sport.

by super_realist Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:43 am

Like I say, drugs that help a player control emotions and nerves to control pressure, like Beta Blockers or ones that improve concentration.

by McLaren Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:44 am

gunsgerms

Really. So who on the US Ryder cup team is being supplied cocaine?

by Diggers Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:47 am

GunsGerms wrote:
super_realist wrote:What makes you think there isn't a culture of golf? Fair play and honesty?

Just not sure how drugs would be of a huge benefit in golf as obviously it isnt an endurance sport.

If indeed its even a sport...

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:51 am

McLaren wrote:gunsgerms

Really. So who on the US Ryder cup team is being supplied cocaine?

Obviously I'm not going to say. That would be pretty dumb. Though Im sure most people have tried it at some point.

by super_realist Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:52 am

I haven't, and I never would. Mugs game.

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:04 pm

super_realist wrote:I haven't, and I never would. Mugs game.

Agreed, though the odd reefer might do you the world of good SR.

by McLaren Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:06 pm

"Obviously I'm not going to say. That would be pretty dumb. Though Im sure most people have tried it at some point. "

Why would you not say?

I doubt the FBI are monitoring 606v2. Just admit that you made it up, or cough up a name.

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:09 pm

McLaren wrote:"Obviously I'm not going to say. That would be pretty dumb. Though Im sure most people have tried it at some point. "

Why would you not say?

I doubt the FBI are monitoring 606v2. Just admit that you made it up, or cough up a name.

Ok I made it up.

by super_realist Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:12 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
super_realist wrote:I haven't, and I never would. Mugs game.

Agreed, though the odd reefer might do you the world of good SR.

Been through that stage when I was a teenager. Adults shouldn't do it.

by JAS Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:43 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
McLaren wrote:"Obviously I'm not going to say. That would be pretty dumb. Though Im sure most people have tried it at some point. "

Why would you not say?

I doubt the FBI are monitoring 606v2. Just admit that you made it up, or cough up a name.

Ok I made it up.

Shouldn't be that difficult to narrow it down to a shortlist.

12 players, minus the ones who haven't been multiple times to Ireland, minus the likes of Furyk & Stricker who are surely too old for that nonsense (mind you Furyk is incredibly well equipped in the capacity to snort stakes).
So who does that leave? Gies a clue... Does he like cocktail waitresses with it??

by JAS Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:52 pm

Getting back to the Armstrong thing...I'm just astounded that if its true and there is such an irrefutable body of evidence, why wasn't he outed much much earlier. If its the case that the authorities knew and did nothing at the time then that is just a bad if not worse than the cheating itself. I have heard that if he is stripped of his titles the authorities will have a REAL problem allocating a winner in some of his "winning" years. One year apparently they'd have to go down to about 6th place!!! Shocking indictment of professional cycling and its governing bodies and drug testing capabilities.

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:18 pm

JAS wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
McLaren wrote:"Obviously I'm not going to say. That would be pretty dumb. Though Im sure most people have tried it at some point. "

Why would you not say?

I doubt the FBI are monitoring 606v2. Just admit that you made it up, or cough up a name.

Ok I made it up.

Shouldn't be that difficult to narrow it down to a shortlist.

12 players, minus the ones who haven't been multiple times to Ireland, minus the likes of Furyk & Stricker who are surely too old for that nonsense (mind you Furyk is incredibly well equipped in the capacity to snort stakes).
So who does that leave? Gies a clue... Does he like cocktail waitresses with it??

Not Woods though he does come to Ireland a lot.

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:26 pm

JAS wrote:Getting back to the Armstrong thing...I'm just astounded that if its true and there is such an irrefutable body of evidence, why wasn't he outed much much earlier. If its the case that the authorities knew and did nothing at the time then that is just a bad if not worse than the cheating itself. I have heard that if he is stripped of his titles the authorities will have a REAL problem allocating a winner in some of his "winning" years. One year apparently they'd have to go down to about 6th place!!! Shocking indictment of professional cycling and its governing bodies and drug testing capabilities.

One year he actually tested positive for performance enhancing drugs but TdF organisers in the end accepted a back dated medical presciption as proof that the drugs were for a legitimate reason.

Paul Kimmage award winning Sunday Times journalist has been claiming that Armstrong is a cheat for years and he was often seen as a bit of a fruit bat. The below clip is from around '09 I think and it is a interview with Lance where Kimmage rather crassly refers to Armstrong as "the cancer of our sport". It is pretty entertaining and I bet he feels vindicated now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgns7CXeUI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Apologies if this was already posted.

by JAS Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:36 pm

"Paul Kimmage award winning Sunday Times journalist has been claiming that Armstrong is a cheat for years"

Based on what exactly, don 't get me wrong I'm all for good investigative journalism. But I (and I don't suppose I'm alone) really struggle with journalistic integrity these days. Such a story would certainly boost sales. So....where's the irrefutable hard evidence?? He didn't hack Armstrongs phone did he?

by McLaren Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:37 pm

Jas

As I said above, at least it seems the cycling authorities are making an effort to catch the cheats. I really don’t trust other sports are looking as hard as they could be for doping infringements.

by incontinentia Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:50 pm

This article outlines it nicely http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19912623

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:13 pm

JAS wrote:"Paul Kimmage award winning Sunday Times journalist has been claiming that Armstrong is a cheat for years"

Based on what exactly, don 't get me wrong I'm all for good investigative journalism. But I (and I don't suppose I'm alone) really struggle with journalistic integrity these days. Such a story would certainly boost sales. So....where's the irrefutable hard evidence?? He didn't hack Armstrongs phone did he?

What do you mean wheres the hard evidence. There are so many people willing to testify that they have seen Armstrong do drugs. Is that not enough for you? One of them was a Irish physio who claims that she was asked by Armstrong to buy him makeup to cover his injection marks. There have been so many similar stories floating around for years now.

He failed a drugs test during one of his first tour de France races but was let off. That alone is hard enough evidence for me.

I doubt Paul Kimmage tapped anyones phone. he is a former cyclist himself and is motivated by the love of the sport and probably some biterness that he had to compete against drugs cheats. Granted journalism in Britain has come under fire recently but that really was just sneeky tabloids anyway and I dont read tabloid newspapers ever.

by GunsGerms Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:23 pm

There is actually a good chance Armstrong will end up in jail for perjury. my guess is that he must have done something to really pi$$ some people off that USADA are persuing this so fervently.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:47 pm

Good. A spell in clink would be a good thing for him I think. Pi$$ people off? If I was one of his former team mates watching him deny everything while I got caught/fessed up and watched him basking in the glory and rolling in the money I'd be seriously pi$$ed off. I'd be doing everything that I legally/honestly could to expose him.

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