Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[Diggers]

First topic message reminder :

Of course there are shades of grey but ultimately nobody can be sent to jail for saying they would like to kiddy fiddle but won't as it's illegal and cannot include consent by definition.
They go to jail when they break the law by looking at images or worse acts. So what do you do, change the laws ? Having an open debate won't change the laws, it will still come down to the same thing.
So whether they are deemed evil by society or not is ultimately fairly irrelevant as far as I can see. The end game remains the same.

[navyblueshorts]

I was thinking more along the lines of processed, high fat foods Navy,

staple and healthy foods therefore become relatively cheaper.


By the way, One of the thing about fat people is that I pay the same for a ticket as they do, but they proportionally use more fuel and have more wear and tear on the seats. How can that be fair? I am effectively supplementing their greed and gluttony.

What is a 'healthy' food? The ridiculous popular descriptions of such just show massive ignorance of the facts and supportive of quack science. There's nothing wrong or unhealthy about, say, a Big Mac and fries. Anyone who thinks that a Big Mac meal is 'unhealthy' of itself just illustrates how poorly educated people actually are re. nutrition, biochemistry and science in general. It's not (in most cases) what you eat but how much of it, the balance of a diet and what exercise you combine with it that matters.

Re. your 'supplementing' someone's greed gluttony. Sorry, you'll have to lump that. That's definitely a nasty 'thin end of the wedge' argument. I can see some logic in theory but then you could argue there's some logic in selective eugenics. Will never happen in reality though.

[Diggers]

I quite fancy a Maccy D's for lunch now everyone is banging on about them.....

[navyblueshorts]

S_R

You still haven't told me where the tax revenue will come from to replace that taken from the tobacco groups?

[super_realist]

I did, I said tax unhealthy food and fat people.

Tax income is not a justification for keeping smoking affordable anyway, and once you've taken off the cost to Smokers in the NHS, you probably aren't left with more than a few billion. Small beans really.

Alternatively I suppose fat people and smokers are doing the nation a favour by dying early, not placing prolonged strain on the NHS.

[Diggers]

S_R

You still haven't told me where the tax revenue will come from to replace that taken from the tobacco groups?

Navy, the economy would adjust to survive one way of the other. There would be savings in medical research and NHS costs.
Stop spending so much money on the forces and wastes of time like Trident. How much money has been sp**ked on utter follys in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past 10 years or so ?

[mystiroakey]

tobacco is an addictive drug- if packs of fags went up to 15 quid- i wouldnt smoke any less..

kinda sad that isnt it!! maybe less poor people would smoke - but i wouldnt stop for the increase!

We all have our faults- right!!

[kwinigolfer]

I'd be amazed if the tax revenue derived from tobacco products compensated anywhere close to the cost to the economy in general and the NHS in particular of loss of productivity, early heart and cancer etc etc.
Obesity probably costs another multi billion.

[mystiroakey]

BTW i would have no problem increasing the tax on tobacco and processed food.

[Diggers]

tobacco is an addictive drug- if packs of fags went up to 15 quid- i wouldnt smoke any less..

kinda sad that isnt it!! maybe less poor people would smoke - but i wouldnt stop for the increase!

We all have our faults- right!!

Its not actually that physically addictive at all. If it was people would be waking up in the middle of the night to spark up and they dont.
Your body should be clear of the actual physical nicotine craving very quickly, what doesnt go away so quickly is the habit. But people make and break habits every day and you can do that with smoking.
Can you tell I was hypnotised ?
Seriously though with me, not only did I stop but I didnt miss it, in fact I just cant believe I eVer did something so stupid. Therefore surely knowing the health and cost implications anyone should have a go down the hypnotism route. Best £140 I ever spent and I genuinely mean that.

[mystiroakey]

btw my mates dad does this hypnotising stuff.. two of friends have had it done- it worked for a month and a week for them- but then they started again!!
i am glad it worked for you though.

My girlfriend hates me smoking- I mean she truely hates it.. She even ripps up my fags sometimes!

[Diggers]

I think Im just weak minded and easily pliable Mysti. Thank the lord !

[mystiroakey]

weak minded -- nah--you gave up-- but maybe the hypnotism only truely works if you really want to give up..

Hypnotism freaks me out, so thats a no for me!

[navyblueshorts]

I did, I said tax unhealthy food and fat people.

Tax income is not a justification for keeping smoking affordable anyway, and once you've taken off the cost to Smokers in the NHS, you probably aren't left with more than a few billion. Small beans really.

Alternatively I suppose fat people and smokers are doing the nation a favour by dying early, not placing prolonged strain on the NHS.

And I asked what you mean by 'unhealthy' food? It'll never fly.

The savings to the NHS won't be realised immediately whereas the lost revenue (£9bn in 2010, 2% of GB tax income, http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/cig-consumption-uk.pdf) will be. In other words, the tax will have to come from the rest of us via some other route. Happy with that? 2% on income tax? I know it's not an argument to say smoking is fine but maybe it's about time to have an honest discussion about what happens if smoking pretty much doesn't exist. Anyway, it'll become a huge illegal trade so we'll still have the NHS issues but without the revenue income.

Navy, the economy would adjust to survive one way of the other. There would be savings in medical research and NHS costs.
Stop spending so much money on the forces and wastes of time like Trident. How much money has been sp**ked on utter follys in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past 10 years or so ?

All possibly true but that's becoming quite a wide argument! Trident's here for the foreseable future anyway so that's a bit of a non-starter.

[navyblueshorts]

BTW i would have no problem increasing the tax on tobacco and processed food.

What, exactly, do you mean by "processed food"?

[navyblueshorts]

Its not actually that physically addictive at all. If it was people would be waking up in the middle of the night to spark up and they dont.
Your body should be clear of the actual physical nicotine craving very quickly, what doesnt go away so quickly is the habit. But people make and break habits every day and you can do that with smoking.
Can you tell I was hypnotised ?
Seriously though with me, not only did I stop but I didnt miss it, in fact I just cant believe I eVer did something so stupid. Therefore surely knowing the health and cost implications anyone should have a go down the hypnotism route. Best £140 I ever spent and I genuinely mean that.

Not actually that true is it? Nicotine itself is highly addictive and the smokers I know all gasp for one as soon as they wake up.

[JAS]

S_R

You still haven't told me where the tax revenue will come from to replace that taken from the tobacco groups?

Going by how much flight prices have rocketed i think theyve already started i.e. Airport/airline passenger duty. It's getting close now to making people alter their leisure travel habits, my trip across the pond this December will probably be my last for a long while, much as I love holidaying in Florida, California, Hawaii & Mexico...governments and airlines can go Donald Duck themselves if they think that current pricing is going to help the travel industry out of recession.

[mystiroakey]

NBS how about we forget the term processed food- because i am sure there is nothing wrong with things like corned beef or proccessed cheese..

The point is i suppose we do have a tax on what is considered unhealthy food. its just VAT applied to it- whereas vat isnt applied to staples- problem is though!! it is all abit of a minefield as to what the govt classes as vatable foodstuffs or not

[navyblueshorts]

JAS

So in other words, although the prices (and taxes?) of flights have risen, the numbers have fallen so the take presumably isn't greatly increased is it?

[Diggers]

Its not actually that physically addictive at all. If it was people would be waking up in the middle of the night to spark up and they dont.
Your body should be clear of the actual physical nicotine craving very quickly, what doesnt go away so quickly is the habit. But people make and break habits every day and you can do that with smoking.
Can you tell I was hypnotised ?
Seriously though with me, not only did I stop but I didnt miss it, in fact I just cant believe I eVer did something so stupid. Therefore surely knowing the health and cost implications anyone should have a go down the hypnotism route. Best £140 I ever spent and I genuinely mean that.

Not actually that true is it? Nicotine itself is highly addictive and the smokers I know all gasp for one as soon as they wake up.

Its highly addictive for a very short time Navy, its nothing like proper class A drugs. Lots of people dont smoke till later in the day, I was one, would never spark up until after work. People dont break into cold sweats because they are deprived of a fag, the problems are mainly mental ones not physical ones.

[super_realist]

Again Navy, I'd already answered that with High Fat and Processed food.

Of course it will never fly because no one has the balls to implement it because there are too many fat, lazy, glutenous people who it would affect to be a vote winner. So much like a Cesna with Shane Lowry aboard sadly it won't fly.

Processed vote is things like processed meats (ie sausages) microwave dinners etc. Sausage Rolls, Pork Pies etc.

The other alternative being that if you choose to be a smoker then you have to pay your own healthcare costs if you haven't given up by a certain time.

[navyblueshorts]

NBS how about we forget the term processed food- because i am sure there is nothing wrong with things like corned beef or proccessed cheese..

The point is i suppose we do have a tax on what is considered unhealthy food. its just VAT applied to it- whereas vat isnt applied to staples- problem is though!! it is all abit of a minefield as to what the govt classes as vatable foodstuffs or not

Ah yes, is a Jaffa Cake a cake or a biscuit?? If this is an argument about obesity, health of the nation etc, lets just impose duty per calorie. Seems simple enough.

[mystiroakey]

"The other alternative being that if you choose to be a smoker then you have to pay your own healthcare costs if you haven't given up by a certain time."

lol did you have to add the certain time in there - because you yourself used to smoke!!

[JAS]

Btw not being a smoker or a fast foodie I'd be all for ramping up the tax on those . Whilst I do like a drink I wouldn't have much objection to booze taxes increasing either
Then there's the whole drugs issue, if you were to legalise the likes of pot & tax it a) you'd get additional revenue and b) you greatly reduce the gateway to other more dangerous substances

[navyblueshorts]

Again Navy, I'd already answered that with High Fat and Processed food.

Of course it will never fly because no one has the balls to implement it because there are too many fat, lazy, glutenous people who it would affect to be a vote winner. So much like a Cesna with Shane Lowry aboard sadly it won't fly.

Processed vote is things like processed meats (ie sausages) microwave dinners etc. Sausage Rolls, Pork Pies etc.

The other alternative being that if you choose to be a smoker then you have to pay your own healthcare costs if you haven't given up by a certain time.

It'll never fly because simplistic "high fat == bad" equations are nonsense. Many foods marketed as 'low fat' have more calories than the regular options as they're packed with massively more carbohydrates than the 'regular' versions. Until people can get away from their 'Holland and Barrett' understanding of nutrition, we'll never get anywhere.

[mystiroakey]

NBS- duty per calorie..

erm tough one isnt it- because there are quality calories and non quality calories out there!

we need a certain amount of fat in our diet!

but yes it would be a very easy simple approach

[super_realist]

"The other alternative being that if you choose to be a smoker then you have to pay your own healthcare costs if you haven't given up by a certain time."

lol did you have to add the certain time in there - because you yourself used to smoke!!

No, I'd happily pay for my time as a smoker (I'm private healthcare anyway so don't need to worry about the NHS ) However I gave up when young and scientifically have the same chance of developing lung cancer or heart disease as a non smoker.
However if you were going to implement it now, you'd have to have a cut off date sometime in the future, i.e a certain year and if you are still a smoker after that date you personally contribute to your time.

Navy i'm well aware of the fat/calorie issue. 100 calories in an apple isn't the same as 100 calories of a Shane Lowry Lard Snack.
But it's hard to argue that there are health benefits to fast food, chips, burgers, sweets, excessive chocolate consumption, cakes etc. No reason not to ramp up some duty on them.

Fresh produce and staples like bread, fruit, vegetables should be encouraged.

[mystiroakey]

SR - well as you mentioned yessterday this is futile because it isnt gonna happen!!

the tax made from smoking pays the nhs anyway

[navyblueshorts]

NBS- duty per calorie..

erm tough one isnt it- because there are quality calories and non quality calories out there!

we need a certain amount of fat in our diet!

but yes it would be a very easy simple approach

Quality calories???? Non-quality calories??? Careful, sounding a bit 'snake oil salesman' there....
A calorie, is a calorie, is a calorie but yes, we need fat in our diet and we need a balanced diet. Trouble is, we have a food requirement and a drive for intake based on physical activity which has evolved over millions of years and over the last 50 years we've almost completely removed the physical activity.

[super_realist]

Oakey, we don't have a society where money raised from a particular demerit source goes to deal with the implications of that.
Road Tax doesn't go straight into maintaining the roads, nor does duty on Cigarettes go directly to the NHS. I'm sure the NHS has better things to spend such money on than fixing up a few hundred thousand smoking induced ailments.

Navy, a calorie is not a calorie. It is more difficult to convert a calorie to energy dependent on where it comes from and what type of foodstuff it's in. 100 calories from a banana is easier to release as energy than 100 calories from Beer/Chocolate.

It makes the calories in v calories out calculation a little different. It's about balancing the types of food you eat, too many people in this country don't hence why we are one of the fattest nations in the world (Still think UK is cool Oakey)

[navyblueshorts]

...Navy i'm well aware of the fat/calorie issue. 100 calories in an apple isn't the same as 100 calories of a Shane Lowry Lard Snack.
But it's hard to argue that there are health benefits to fast food, chips, burgers, sweets, excessive chocolate consumption, cakes etc. No reason not to ramp up some duty on them.

Fresh produce and staples like bread, fruit, vegetables should be encouraged.

Whoops! Try again. 100 calories is 100 calories. Of course there are health benefits to the foods you outline above. They're only an issue if a) that's all you eat (i.e. not balanced) and b) you eat too much (i.e. more calories in than out).

[mystiroakey]

SR it doesnt matter where it goes

its about the contribution.. Smokers pay more tax than the nhs spends each year- thats all- its not complicated

[JAS]

Of course another potential revenue raiser would be legalising and taxing the worlds oldest profession. Never ceases to amaze me how such potential revenue streams are overlooked. Do people stick their heads in the sand and pretend there's no such thing going on? Or is it that too many have a vested interest in keeping it out of sight out of mind?

[navyblueshorts]

...I'm sure the NHS has better things to spend such money on than fixing up a few hundred thousand smoking induced ailments.

But you can't delineate treatment to people based on whether they've smoked or not. Statistically, it might be a bit more likely that, as a smoker, you'll contract cancer but you can't prove a given incidence is directly the result of smoking. Ergo, you can't withhold treatment in that way. At least not on the NHS. If you want to go an insurance-based health route, be my guest but I think we can see what a pile of doo-doo that is by looking over the Pond.

[super_realist]

Ok, keep smoking then. The NHS needs you.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy, a calorie is not a calorie. It is more difficult to convert a calorie to energy dependent on where it comes from and what type of foodstuff it's in. 100 calories from a banana is easier to release as energy than 100 calories from Beer/Chocolate....

What does that have to do with the health, or otherwise, of a foodstuff? Nothing at all.

[navyblueshorts]

Ok, keep smoking then. The NHS needs you.

I don't. I hate the taste of the few I tried.....which is probably lucky for me.

[super_realist]

Of course another potential revenue raiser would be legalising and taxing the worlds oldest profession. Never ceases to amaze me how such potential revenue streams are overlooked. Do people stick their heads in the sand and pretend there's no such thing going on? Or is it that too many have a vested interest in keeping it out of sight out of mind?

If it were the worlds oldest profession than everyone must have been a prostitute as there wouldn't have been any other jobs.

[mystiroakey]

Of course another potential revenue raiser would be legalising and taxing the worlds oldest profession. Never ceases to amaze me how such potential revenue streams are overlooked. Do people stick their heads in the sand and pretend there's no such thing going on? Or is it that too many have a vested interest in keeping it out of sight out of mind?

yep i hear ya..

however there is the notion that countries like ours allow certain blackmarkets so criminals wont get into worse things!!

[mystiroakey]

but then as we are talking about the NHS in all this JAS- the reduction from STD's from taxing and controlling prostitution would significantly reduce NHS spending as well

[super_realist]

Navy, I don't think you are getting the point. Taxing by calorie wouldn't work because all calories are not equal. Well they are in the sense of the energy that each has, however, it's easier to get energy from certain foods than others, and the energy not released as energy can become stored as fat. So you might take in the same amount of calories as someone on a healthier diet, but because your body can't process it as easily, less energy is released and your net balance is skewed and you put on weight.

If you changed your current diet from what it is to an equivalent calorie level in Mars Bars or Lard, you'd put on weight.

[mystiroakey]

i agree sr.

the whole facination of calorie counting when dieting isnt a good thing at all. people need to understanbd what good calories are and what are not!

[super_realist]

Exactly, it's not as easy as people think. If you are into cardio vascular sport you know about stuff like that. A couple of meals of poor quality calorie sources soon affects performance.

By and large though, a steady calorie intake to exercise programme results in a healthy person.

[mystiroakey]

Exactly you feel more lathagic when you eat low quality foodstuffs- I am personally highly senstive to bad foods!!

this has nothing to do with the amount of calories the food cotains..

If i ate a meal of chicken rice and avocado(high in calories) i would feel much better than eating chicken rice and the same amount of calories in mayoniase (as the avocado)

not saying i would eat the above- but there you go

[super_realist]

Sounds like Navy is on a see-food diet. See Food and eat it

[mystiroakey]

Well when i go new york that is what i am gonna be doing!!!

Abit of what you fancy is nice sometimes!!!

[Diggers]

McChicken sandwich and fries for lunch....mmmm

[super_realist]

Hope you paid the extra fat tax/litter tax/smell tax/sewage treatment tax Diggers.

[mystiroakey]

sewage treatment - oh dear sr... you have made me imagine Diggers straining on the toilet!

[Diggers]

Dunno, was about £3.50 though. Apparently if Id cut a voucher out of this mornings Metro would have been £1.99, gutted.

[Diggers]

sewage treatment - oh dear sr... you have made me imagine Diggers straining on the toilet!

Questionable as to which of us finds this comment more disturbing really. You for having the thoughts or me now imagining you having the thoughts......

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