England v Fiji - KO 14:30 Sat 10th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions


England team to face Fiji

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 2 caps)
14. Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 7 caps)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins, 13 caps)
10. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 33 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 3 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 0 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)
4. Tom Palmer (London Wasps, 40 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 8 caps)
8. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)


Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 2 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 0 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 0 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 8 caps)
23. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 7 caps)

[ChequeredJersey]

I'm quite happy with that squad. Couldn't Be much better given The EPS

[BamBam]

Opportunity missed to give one of Burns/Twelvetrees a bench spot maybe? Not bad though, Vunipola and Launchbury will hopefully get a good 20 mins or so

[majesticimperialman]

It will be interesting to see who get selected for the fiji game. Will the likes of Freddie Burns get a spot on the bench? and what about Billy Twelve Trees. will he start or again be on the bench.

Can't wait untill the team is selected.

[LondonTiger]

Maj as the squad has been announced the answer is no and neither.

http://www.rfu.com/news/2012/november/newsarticles/061211_squad_update


I am sure Lancaster will be pilloried on here - but he has taken the time to look at some extra players and decided to promote Launchberry into the match day squad but not Burns or Twelvetrees. Flood and Barritt have been in pretty good form this season nad after their efforts in SA and 6Ns respectively deserve a chance. Only real question is whether Farrell deserves a spot on the bench. Again he has shown he has the temperament for international play and has done little wrong. Personally i would prefer to see him playing at Sarries and gaining more experience, but.......


Perhaps Lancaster takes loyalty a bit too far but showing somew faith in the men in possession is not a bad thing. We could of course chop and change the side based on transient form - i am old enough to remember the period post 1980 GS and prior to Geoff Cooke taking over when this was prevalent. God we were shambolic.

[Geordie]

LT, if Launchbury will get some minutes v Fiji i wont be slating SL....

[majesticimperialman]

I can remember times when the coach change players like half the team when the team lost a game one week in the hope they would win the second week.

[Cumbrian]

Considering the 23 left, the team almost writes itself to be honest. I'm 'guessing':

01. Joe Marler
02. Tom Youngs
03. Dan Cole
04. Geoff Parling
05. Tom Palmer
06. Tom Johnson
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Thomas Waldrom

09. Danny Care
10. Toby Flood

11. Charlie Sharples
12. Brad Barritt
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Ugo Monye
15. Alex Goode

I'm only slightly unsure about a couple of position (Hooker and Full back)

It's a feather in Launchbury's cap though, he must have impressed them in training to get a chance ahead of Botha (assuming they aren't just resting him for next week! )

[rugbyathletics1]

I would think Goode will start at 15 despite Brown's inclusion. He has trained all week and is obviously part of the gameplan. I think Brown is only in the 23 due to JJ being unfit.

I have a feeling Launchbury will start ... Just a hunch. Palmer seems to own that 18/19 shirt.

[Geordie]

Launchbury is a class act though....however its important to say hes not superman....hes a young lad who should over time make one of those SR positions his own....he needs to play at this level...

[Cumbrian]

True GF, I still think he's already a better player than Botha. His handling skill are certainly better and he is quicker. Physicality wise they aren't that far apart either (one of the things that Botha has going for him). In a couple of years Launchbury will be (far) ahead in these stakes too. Exciting times.

[Geordie]

Absolutely mate....

[yappysnap]

Like the look of that team and only two issues, I feel sharples is being rushed into the team and has done little to justify it. Also I have no problem with Goode at 15 but if Brown isn't starting then he should be released to Quins, he's completely the wrong type of player to wear the 23 shirt and come on with 5 mins remaining.

On an upbeat note it'll be great to see more of Marler, Youngs, Cole, launchberry, Robshaw, Care and the Vunipolas at Int level. All still so young and there's so much potential in that nexus of players.

[Guest]

England should put a cricket score on Fiji,
Wales Nilled this team in the World cup.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

So happy for Joe Launchbury & well deserved hope he gets a good amount of game time.

[rugbyathletics1]

England should put a cricket score on Fiji

That's what I'm afraid of.

[Geordie]

1 Marler
2 Youngs (Possibly...need to see him in more big games )
3 Cole
4 Launbury
5
6
7 Robshaw
8

Now that is the beginnings of a very interesting looking pack!

[EnglishReign]

When I said Morgan had played his last game for England once signing for Glaws, I was joking...

[yappysnap]

I can't see Waldron being anything other then a bit of competition for Morgan, he's just so average. Once Morgan has jumped through which ever hoops SL decides are suddenly important for him but no one else then he'll be the starter with Billy V on the bench. I'd be surprised if TTT starts anything other then the Fiji game.

[yappysnap]

1 Marler
2 Youngs (Possibly...need to see him in more big games )
3 Cole
4 Launbury
5
6
7 Robshaw
8

Now that is the beginnings of a very interesting looking pack!

Who cares about the pack its the boys in the backs that win these games!

Care/Youngs
Flood/Burns
Barritt/Twelvetrees
Manu/Joseph
Goode/Brown

Are all going to be great shirt battles to watch in the future (with Lowe in there too)

[DaveM]

Decent matchday squad. I don't like us having a specialist fullback on the bench, but I'm never going to agree with every selection decision.

SL made clear that Burns wouldn't be involved yet as he doesn't know the systems. Still it's good he and Twelvetrees got some training time with the senior side. I'm sure they will both be back. I see SL thinks Farrell's basics are really outstanding, and we know Catt has been working on his game management, so it will be interesting to see how he plays.

It'll be interesting to see how the centres go. Unless they have a great game then I wouldn't be surprised to see changes there next week with Tuilagi to IC (where Greenwood reckons he'll end up) or to the wing in order to accommodate JJ.

[ChequeredJersey]

Like the look of that team and only two issues, I feel sharples is being rushed into the team and has done little to justify it. Also I have no problem with Goode at 15 but if Brown isn't starting then he should be released to Quins, he's completely the wrong type of player to wear the 23 shirt and come on with 5 mins remaining.

On an upbeat note it'll be great to see more of Marler, Youngs, Cole, launchberry, Robshaw, Care and the

Vunipolas at Int level. All still so young and there's so much potential in that nexus of players.

+1

[LondonTiger]

with Tuilagi to IC (where Greenwood reckons he'll end up) or to the wing in order to accommodate JJ.

Jerry Guscott and Michael Lynagh have said the same.

[EnglishReign]

Like the look of that team and only two issues, I feel sharples is being rushed into the team and has done little to justify it.

Again, we're back to that "can't replace non-injured players" rubbish. I admit Sharples isn't in scintillating form, but a player with that sort of pace has bags of potential even when not at their best. He recovered from injury in time to be fit for the Autumn (opposite of JSD!), so hasn't played much but is still a threat.

Also, he's someone who I think should've been brought into the set-up far earlier, when he was tearing up the premiership. Not as a replacement for the injured Strettle during a dip in form!

[ChequeredJersey]

Just seen Glen Jackson is the ref! He got there fast!

[Geordie]

1 Marler
2 Youngs (Possibly...need to see him in more big games )
3 Cole
4 Launbury
5
6
7 Robshaw
8

Now that is the beginnings of a very interesting looking pack!

Who cares about the pack its the boys in the backs that win these games!

Care/Youngs
Flood/Burns
Barritt/Twelvetrees
Manu/Joseph
Goode/Brown

Are all going to be great shirt battles to watch in the future (with Lowe in there too)

The thing is Yappy, that for the first time in years...we're beginning to see a few players come through in the pack that will be making that spot their own. Yes they have competition...but their name would always be first choice...and i'd go back to 2003 when we last really said that.
Four players there who nearly every England fan would select in that position.
After the AI's we maybe will add Morgan to that list...it just feels like we are potentially moving forward at last....

[LondonTiger]

Now that is the beginnings of a very interesting looking pack!

Who cares about the pack its the boys in the backs that win these games!

Packs win matches, backs decide the margin

(Yes I know, not always true - but without a competitive pack you are in trouble)

[Chjw131]

It's a distinct shame that Morgan hasn't made the team. He steadily improved through the 6N and set up some cracking scores winning MOTM in the Ireland game.

Shaun Edwards named Morgan and Tuilagi as the only players Wales consistently missed tackles on. His work rate this season has gone up and once again he's been carrying incredibly well. Judging him on a poor game in SA as his first game back from a hamstring tear is I feel a little unfair.

What surprises me is that he was seen as so important for the SA first Test that he had to be rushed in with no game time (he didn't even make the Barbarians game the previous week) but now is surplus to requirements behind a steady but fairly average Kiwi.

[Chjw131]

Having said that, bar Morgan, Farrell and Brown i'm happy with the selection. Particularly enjoyable to see Launchbury make the bench ahead of Botha and Robson despite only being there for two days.

His game for Wasps on the weekend v Saracens was absolutely outstanding for a Second Row I felt.

[Mr Taff]

Fiji to sneak this by 2 points.

[Geordie]

CHJ

I too am a little surprised that Waldrom has moved ahead of Morgan in the selection stakes. He had the jersey in the last test so i guess thats the way SL is working it...but i would be far happier with Morgan there.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

In a moment of pure, pointless conjecture I wondered what differences would be between a team picked by MJ and SL. Probably the only significant difference would be no Andy Farrell as backs/defence coach. Who knows?

[Adam]

As usual, I can't find too much fault in Lancaster's selection - seems to be a good blend of youth, form but also continuity.

As others have said, I'd prefer to see Morgan start at 8, but given that this is the 'softer' of the AI fixtures, I'm hoping that this doesn't necessarily reflect Waldrom's overtaking of Morgan as England's 1st choice 8.

Also, I would expect Brown to start over Goode at fullback - as others have said, he's not the most versatile of benchers. Plus, he is the incumbent from the summer tour (unless I am mistaken) and his form has done nothing to earn a demotion. Thinking about it, we suddenly have awesome depth at 15 - Foden was one of our genuine game-changers last season, but his injury lay-off has given us no problems whatsoever. When he's back SL will have a welcome headache...

A little worried about both set pieces with Youngs at hooker, but he's a talented lad so fingers crossed he can step-up. Also reassured to see Marler fit as he's been on cracking form and held up pretty well in the summer against an uber-physical bok pack, I thought.

[Geordie]

A little worried about both set pieces with Youngs at hooker, but he's a talented lad so fingers crossed he can step-up. Also reassured to see Marler fit as he's been on cracking form and held up pretty well in the summer against an uber-physical bok pack, I thought..

Marlers scrummaging is getting batter and better...thank you Mr Rowntree.

I also wouldnt worry too much about Youngs in the scrums....despite his height hes a powerful guy...at least these AI's will give us an idea if he can handle it...

[Chjw131]

A little worried about both set pieces with Youngs at hooker, but he's a talented lad so fingers crossed he can step-up. Also reassured to see Marler fit as he's been on cracking form and held up pretty well in the summer against an uber-physical bok pack, I thought..

Marlers scrummaging is getting batter and better...thank you Mr Rowntree.

I also wouldnt worry too much about Youngs in the scrums....despite his height hes a powerful guy...at least these AI's will give us an idea if he can handle it...

Definitely, I wouldn't be too worried scrummaging-wise. Palmer is good in that regard as well so I expect the scrum to be a real weapon. Line-out wise we'll just have to see what happens. What I don't want to see though is people going off on one if Youngs has one or two wayward throws, he's a work in progress and we all need to keep that in mind.

Without wanting to be too doom-mongering about it this team is Lancaster's strongest available to him and with the exception of Hartley, Lawes and Ashton is the one I expect to continue starting throughout this Autumn. Given Morgan hasn't made it I can't see him featuring at all this Autumn unless Waldrom has a poor game or gets injured.

Looking forward to how the pack goes, as Geordie point out above there's starting to form a real kernel of quality in the pack and with some superb back-up in the likes of Marler, Vunipola, Wilson etc in the front row adding to some serious quality elsewhere, we could be looking at a really good pack with some difficult choices for a change!

A pack of

1. A Corbisiero
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. G Parling
6. T Croft
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

16. T Youngs 17. J Marler 18. D Wilson 19. C Lawes 20. T Wood

..looks to be a seriously good set-up. That's without players such as Carl Fearns, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, James Haskell etc.. at the next level down.

[LondonTiger]

6. T Croft
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

That I like.

[Adam]

Geordie, you're right - I was really meaning from an 'untested front row' perspective when it looked as if Marler wouldn't make it. Now he's in I'm a lot happier with the scrum outlook - he coped pretty handily with SA and front rows don't come much tougher than that.

Will be nice to see Corbisiero back in the frame as well - gather he's playing for LI at the weekend...

How concerned are you about Youngs' throwing? I haven't seen too much of the guy, but what I have seen of his lineout wasn't crazy bad. People overstating the problem? Minor tweaks or fundamental issues?

[LondonTiger]

Adam - until the first half against Gloucester it has been OK. He occasionally tweaks a not straight but usually the problem seems to be throwing the ball early - so it passes over the jumper before he is at the top of his jump.

Those first 40 minutes against Glaws were not good, but he pulled it round in the second half, nailing a series of high pressure throws.

To context - George Chuter missed his man about 5 times against Saints.

[Geordie]

Again, have no fear Rowntree will be marching them up the pitch using the scrum machine...getting used to each other. The one thing i have absolute confidence in is that front row WONT be a weakness against any of the SH teams.

The real question is....IF Marler reproduces his club form on the International stage...what chance of Corbs remaining first choice? Not much i would say...but that gives you serious options at LH.

We badly need that at TH aswell...as despite Davy Wilson, PDJ etc being ok they're not really gonna challenge Cole.

Hooker is a dilema...but we need the "potentials" to start producing... Youngs has a big chance to show he can handle it...Lindsay and George need to prove to us they are genuine challengers...
Would Webber have started over Youngs for this Fiji game?

[Chjw131]

Again, have no fear Rowntree will be marching them up the pitch using the scrum machine...getting used to each other. The one thing i have absolute confidence in is that front row WONT be a weakness against any of the SH teams.

The real question is....IF Marler reproduces his club form on the International stage...what chance of Corbs remaining first choice? Not much i would say...but that gives you serious options at LH.

We badly need that at TH aswell...as despite Davy Wilson, PDJ etc being ok they're not really gonna challenge Cole.

Hooker is a dilema...but we need the "potentials" to start producing... Youngs has a big chance to show he can handle it...Lindsay and George need to prove to us they are genuine challengers...
Would Webber have started over Youngs for this Fiji game?

On the TH front I agree Geordie it's been looking a bit bare, particularly unlucky for young Henry Thomas to have been injured. With some work on his scrummaging he could've caused some more headaches.

As far as Wilson goes i've been really very impressed with his workrate and scrum performances at Bath. If he gets the bit between his teeth and gets some incentive from England he could very well make that final push at the end of his development and be an excellent TH sub for Cole. Sinckler and Knight are the next two possible superstars to keep an eye on.

At hooker I would've said Webber would have started with Youngs on the bench but the last game I remember of Webber's was against Tigers at the end of last season and he had about sixteen not straights that day. He's a heavyweight but has never really impressed me like that.

George is a tragedy at the moment. I don't blame Saracens as with Smit and Brits it's no wonder those two would be ahead. What Jamie George needs to do is up sticks and move to Wasps or London Irish to get some serious game time. We've seen with Launchbury and Freddie Burns etc.. there's no substitute for consistent game time in the Jeff.

[Geordie]

We'll take Jaime George...perfect for him...rapidly improving pack (and team) history of developing top players, tremendous coaching team...and desperately need a top notch hooker....

I wonder if i should have a word with Deano...

[beshocked]

Geordiefalcon you would have to suggest someone in return.

It would be quite a switch.

The only thing these sides offer is gametime. Albeit a good reason to move but is moving to a smaller pond is a risk too.

[RubyGuby]

Get Dave Ward in there the mans a beast

[Chjw131]

Geordiefalcon you would have to suggest someone in return.

It would be quite a switch.

The only thing these sides offer is gametime. Albeit a good reason to move but is moving to a smaller pond is a risk too.

I don't know about Falcons Geordie, but a team like Wasps seem to have some real ambition, the makings of a good pack and other youngsters also signing on with them for extended contracts (Launchbury).

I know Saracens are an excellent team, but I wouldn't necessarily feel Wasps are the minows of the league Beshocked. It just seems he needs to be getting some consistent game time at this stage to force his case. Not only that England are in need of his development at present.

[Geordie]

If its ambition...you wont find a more ambitious team in the country at the moment under our new chairman...and coaching team.
George is getting absolutley nothing sitting behind those two hookers...

At Wasps, he'd be up against the other prospect Lindsay...so i dont see that happening...

Whilst now might not be the right time (as we're in the championship)...should we come back up...then i couldnt think of a better place for him to be next season...

Who knows....but...hes just a wasted talent at the moment....

[beshocked]

When did I say Wasps are minnows?They have a good looking pack from numbers 4-8. Also their 1st XV on paper looks pretty good.

On the other hand Wasps still have a pretty abysmal looking frontrow. I agree having Jamie George would help a lot.

Though saying that B.Vunipola might move in the opposite direction.

[Chjw131]

Geordiefalcon you would have to suggest someone in return.

It would be quite a switch.

The only thing these sides offer is gametime. Albeit a good reason to move but is moving to a smaller pond is a risk too.

That's what I interpreted from this comment. There is a fine line between staying put in a club system where you can learn from some greats in your position and being slowly integrated into the first XV, and playing one game in the last 10 or so. In my opinion George has had plenty of time to take on board some nuances of the position and now he needs to put his own stamp on his own game.

If Saracens are prepared to get him some serious game time and not drop him immediately after the odd mistake then great, but he's not even in a position where he's bench-warming at present.

As far as Billy V goes he may well move off with his brother. I have a suspicion though that Young will do everything he can to keep him there and with Launchbury signing on today he may be edging that battle.

[Chjw131]

Also rumours are that they're going to sing PDJ from Saints. I would say he's not a top line international TH but I think he'd do well with Wasps as a first choice. Then all they need is a young pretender to take over from Payne.

[Chjw131]

If its ambition...you wont find a more ambitious team in the country at the moment under our new chairman...and coaching team.
George is getting absolutley nothing sitting behind those two hookers...

At Wasps, he'd be up against the other prospect Lindsay...so i dont see that happening...

Whilst now might not be the right time (as we're in the championship)...should we come back up...then i couldnt think of a better place for him to be next season...

Who knows....but...hes just a wasted talent at the moment....

I've got the solution. Get Lindsay to move to Falcons. Deano would do wonders with him!

[beshocked]

Geordiefalcon sorry but Saracens will always be more ambitious than Newcastle until you do something that proves that notion wrong.

I agree he is wasted talent.


chjw131 I was referring more to Newcastle but as it stands Wasps have not been doing as well as Saracens. You could argue they are no longer at the top table. They are going through a rebuilding phase after last season's narrow escape from relegation. Wasps with their prestigious history can't be called a minnow but are no longer the force they were.

They might well get there though if they continue the rebuilding phase.

I am sure Young will want to keep Billy Vunipola but ultimately it's up to the guy himself. To be fair Wasps have treated him well. If he moved to Saracens he probably wouldn't get as much game time due to rotation.

I agree PDJ would be an excellent signing for Wasps. If they could sign him and George they would make their frontrow options looks much healthier.

[englandglory4ever]

With 3 rookies (Youngs, Launchbury, Vunipola) likely to be in the matchday squad I'm starting to feel a little nervous. OK we all expect England to beat Fiji but with so little experience across the squad I fear the other SH giants could give us a spanking.

On the plus side SL is sounding confident that the squad have prepared well and will give a good account of themselves.

We will know the answer very soon now.

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