England v Fiji - KO 14:30 Sat 10th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions


England team to face Fiji

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 2 caps)
14. Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 7 caps)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins, 13 caps)
10. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 33 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 3 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 0 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)
4. Tom Palmer (London Wasps, 40 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 8 caps)
8. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)


Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 2 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 0 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 0 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 8 caps)
23. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 7 caps)

[gregortree]

Kia and AWOP are poured all over the Argy / Wales thread like a bad Cloudy Bay Sauvignon, but over here on the England thread, the Land of The Long Cloud speaks a thundering silence

[gregortree]

Well its a fb thing, when someone abuses your laptop when you are not looking and posts nonsense. Sorry if it is not the case. I take it you did watch the game ?

[LondonTiger]

Forgot to say, Care's sin-binning was an utter joke.

Watching the replay on the big screen - it looked like the hips were always lower than the shoulders but that he had cocked his leg in the air like a dog having a pee.

Some real dicks in the crowd - barbour brigade singing the dirge that is swing low during the (slightly dull) fijian haka and then booing when Robshaw elected to go for goal .

There was a lot of space out there today that England failed to use either by keeping the head down or passing poorly. However a better result than any 606 poster had predicted on SB.

[mystiroakey]

nah tree i didnt watch the game!!

i only just realised we were playing- i forgot about all this rugby stuff.. gutted - wish i watch it..

What the heck is going on ireland game hey- beating up SA!!!

[majesticimperialman]

A nice win for England astill alot to work on. Alex Goiode looked goood at full back will go Foden a run for the shirt when he is fit again.

There was quite a few handling errors, was that because of wet conditions or nerves?

Still one game and one win under their belt.

[thomh]

Sharples been class today.

What do people think of tuilagis game

Seems to be a bit more subtle today, running more at the space and offloading rather than trying to blast his way through. Would like to see him get more ball though

yeah I agree with that, he's certainly trying to offload more. there not always coming off though.

His handling skills seemed to have gone up a level, though he didn't look quite as threatening with the ball in hand as usual - his second try aside.

[nobbled]

Goode was just sublime - turning up like Foden at his best.

[lostinwales]

Makes you sort of wonder why Goode is a full time full back and not a full time fly half really. It really helps having a couple of smart adaptable players.

I think Tom Youngs is quite a handful in the loose. He is very dynamic, has great hands, a low center of gravity and a lot of power. It is so early in his career as a hooker you have to wonder if he is going to get a real hiding in the scrum sometime but it was a great start.

[belovedfrosties]

Have to be honest i thought Tuilagi looked more like the player we hoped he would become. A lot less brainless charging into the closest person to him, he passed more, drew defenders before offloading, and when he decided to charge he did it at the right times. He made more metres than any other player on the pitch according to the beeb stats.

I agree with Geordie on the BR, Waldrom isn't that good, Morgan does the same but better and is younger and english. Johnson, again is a bit on the old side whilst not contributing as much as other options. Croft, Wood, Haskell and Morgan are very good players we could replace either of those with, and i hope lancaster does just that.

Thought Parling was very good today, his partnership with Youngs will help too. Didn't see much of Palmer and thought Launchberry didn't look out of place at all when he came on.

Sharples played very well, as did Monye, Ashton may have his work cut out to get back into the team. I can't see him scoring a try like Sharples first.

[lostinwales]

Sharples had no right to score that try - it was quite something. The previous internationals he had played in he never seemed to get a chance to do anything and looked a bit lost, but this game was different. He certainly deserves more chances to see if he has got what it takes or not.

Johnson looked like one of those players who are basically good all rounders but lack that real X factor. He must surely be a stopgap for one of the others. Waldrom was a poor man's Nick Easter. Someone did have to do the job he did and reports suggest he did do a lot of work, but he was hardly inspiring

[nathan]

Have to be honest i thought Tuilagi looked more like the player we hoped he would become. A lot less brainless charging into the closest person to him, he passed more, drew defenders before offloading, and when he decided to charge he did it at the right times. He made more metres than any other player on the pitch according to the beeb stats.

I agree with Geordie on the BR, Waldrom isn't that good, Morgan does the same but better and is younger and english. Johnson, again is a bit on the old side whilst not contributing as much as other options. Croft, Wood, Haskell and Morgan are very good players we could replace either of those with, and i hope lancaster does just that.

Thought Parling was very good today, his partnership with Youngs will help too. Didn't see much of Palmer and thought Launchberry didn't look out of place at all when he came on.

Sharples played very well, as did Monye, Ashton may have his work cut out to get back into the team. I can't see him scoring a try like Sharples first.

Where are those beeb stats?

[belovedfrosties]

It mentioned it in one of the articles, said something like Tuillagi made 95m, more than any player on either team.

[George Carlin]

Thinking of the next game, the first thing that England should target is the Aussie scrum which was turned into oeufs brouillés by the French. Marler and Cole should take their opposite numbers to the cleaners.

[emack2]

England have more players,money,resources than any team in the World,Fiji hardly any.Fiji hardly have any time together at all,to have any realistic chance they needed to score early and often.For the first 20 minutes they were in the game,England due to whatever were rusty.Combinations,and a heap of unforced
errors ruined there first half.Fiji`s defence was poor especially of the Maul,there Scrum pretty much non existent.Most of Englands tries came from forward power.Seven tries looks convincing,but Lancaster afterwards was frank about the display.Take the win,not happy about the many butchered chances,things to work on etc.
As to the Sky presentation,flashy chalk boards all pretentous rubbish,contrast it withBBC.For the Wales match when the commentators were just laying out what was before them.Fair to both sides with some incisive analysis Argentina won well .Wales were it seemed badly handicapped by injuries during the game
more so than Argentina .What is evident this year Defence is again a key area for victory.That when you get into the redzone you MUST keep the score board ticking by whatever means.

[Hood83]

England have more players,money,resources than any team in the World,Fiji hardly any.Fiji hardly have any time together at all,to have any realistic chance they needed to score early and often.For the first 20 minutes they were in the game,England due to whatever were rusty.Combinations,and a heap of unforced
errors ruined there first half.Fiji`s defence was poor especially of the Maul,there Scrum pretty much non existent.Most of Englands tries came from forward power.Seven tries looks convincing,but Lancaster afterwards was frank about the display.Take the win,not happy about the many butchered chances,things to work on etc.
As to the Sky presentation,flashy chalk boards all pretentous rubbish,contrast it withBBC.For the Wales match when the commentators were just laying out what was before them.Fair to both sides with some incisive analysis Argentina won well .Wales were it seemed badly handicapped by injuries during the game
more so than Argentina .What is evident this year Defence is again a key area for victory.That when you get into the redzone you MUST keep the score board ticking by whatever means.

One big issue I have with England is the defence. Not so much the organisation or commitment, but for a good 20 minutes Fiji were getting over the gainline a lot. We don't seem to be stopping them or knocking them back effectively. I think it's a personnel thing, as much as players like Johnson bring to the team, i think there's a lack of pure beef.

[Hood83]

Thinking of the next game, the first thing that England should target is the Aussie scrum which was turned into oeufs brouillés by the French. Marler and Cole should take their opposite numbers to the cleaners.

Sadly, the scrum I think is still the best chance we have of beating Oz. Strangling penalties out of them at scrum time. Nowt wrong with that but I hope we can develop a more all court game.

[Geordie]

Absolutely agree...our defence is not the best...Fiji were making big yards when they got the ball...and in the summer SA players were making huge gains.....

They need to improve that.

[yappysnap]

Launchberry, Youngs and Marler are all well known for being physical players, I don't know why this hasn't transcended to Int level though

[yappysnap]

Oh and btw I thought Waldrom was painfully average today. Morgan or Easter would be far better

[belovedfrosties]

I thought Youngs carried very well tbh, Marler however, has not brought his premiership carrying game yet. Think its too early to judge Launchberry though.

Defence was great in the 6N last year, if we can get back to that sort of level we should do ok. Attacking actually rather good, there seemed to be a definite shape and plan to what we were trying to achieve, something which we have been sorely lacking in years gone by.

[nathan]

Launchberry, Youngs and Marler are all well known for being physical players, I don't know why this hasn't transcended to Int level though

Errrrr, because they're pretty new to internationals. Jeez give them a chance!

[yappysnap]

True true.

Much better result then I was expecting and great to see both our centers featuring prominantly in attack.

[nathan]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the ref, which I think speaks volumes about how good he was on his international début.

[EngInAuck]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the ref, which I think speaks volumes about how good he was on his international début.

Agreed , not to sure about the Yellow Card to Care , but even then he was only going with what his touch judge told him.

[DaveM]

I thought England did ok. Yes they left some chances out on the pitch, but we were creating chances with the ball in hand, the shape really was luch better and it actually looked like there was an attacking gameplan yesterday and I'd expect us to build from there.

Youngs was excellent. SL thinks scrummaging is a particular strength of his, his line out was immaculate, he was prominent in the loose - he couldn't really have done more. Goode was deservedly MoM. He was playing as a FH for large chunks of the game and it will be interesting to see if he ever makes that transition permanantly now. At present if Barritt (who had a good game) or Tuilagi are at IC I think we'll be seeing Goode at FB.

With Sharples, Vunipola and Launchbury also doing ok there's plenty to build on.

[mystiroakey]

From my POV England havent had a bad game with lancaster in charge.

I am very positive. Every game we seem to have moved on

[HERSH]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the ref, which I think speaks volumes about how good he was on his international début.

[Morgannwg]

Either that or you can't blame him for losing due to winning.

[HERSH]

I thought Romain Poite had a good game too.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

The only grave error was the extremely dubious call from the TJ.

[Jimpy]

I thought England did ok. Yes they left some chances out on the pitch, but we were creating chances with the ball in hand, the shape really was luch better and it actually looked like there was an attacking gameplan yesterday and I'd expect us to build from there.

Youngs was excellent. SL thinks scrummaging is a particular strength of his, his line out was immaculate, he was prominent in the loose - he couldn't really have done more. Goode was deservedly MoM. He was playing as a FH for large chunks of the game and it will be interesting to see if he ever makes that transition permanantly now. At present if Barritt (who had a good game) or Tuilagi are at IC I think we'll be seeing Goode at FB.

With Sharples, Vunipola and Launchbury also doing ok there's plenty to build on.

Agree.... but for the first 17 minutes of the match, Fiji had all the posession and looked the more dangerous team. Ring rusty or what, I don't know - but what I do know is that teams like NZ can and do put 20+ points on you in the same period of time if you give them room to play (like Scotland did). Although the result was good, the team must work on playing hard for 80 minutes, otherwise they will be found wanting against better opposition.

[mystiroakey]

"Although the result was good, the team must work on playing hard for 80 minutes, otherwise they will be found wanting against better opposition."

that old chesnut hey..

come on, it is what it is.

and to be honest it is very normal for the weaker team to be in the hame early- but later on there fitness levels drop and it becomes easier for the better team

[gregortree]

And there is talk of citing the Care 'tip' to upgrade it to a red card offence.
What a load of billox I hope the commissioner is wise enough not do anything stupid.

[gregortree]

England did start slowly, bit rusty, and oddly I thought NZ did too. I was thinking NZ look pretty mortal here (for first quarter) then after they settled in the AB went up through the gears and blew poor old Scots away. I feel good about England's recent trajectory, but remain apprehensive about the final test v NZ.

[Jimpy]

"Although the result was good, the team must work on playing hard for 80 minutes, otherwise they will be found wanting against better opposition."

that old chesnut hey..
come on, it is what it is.

and to be honest it is very normal for the weaker team to be in the hame early- but later on there fitness levels drop and it becomes easier for the better team

It might bore you, i'm so terribly sorry, but unfortunately, its a perfectly valid observation. And whilst 'there' (sic) fitness levels may drop, the fitness levels of the vast majority of teams that England regularly face in competition and for world rankings, wont.

Yes there are many positives, but there are negatives, if Fiji are such weak opposition, why were they able to dominate periods of the game that upcoming teams will ruthlessley exploit? If Fiji were so poor, how were they able to score very good tries by waltzing through the defence?

Presumably SL and co will work on these deficiencies in the week, not bury their (see what I did there?) heads in the sand, like some seem to want to do on this site...

[gregortree]

Some 'deficiancies' (sic) which need fixing, sure, SL & team will be on the case.

[pjm1]

Agreed Dave... I was particularly encouraged by the clever tactics SL put in place for Goode. If it is persevered with and fine-tuned, it should really help bring out the best in our otherwise limited centres. (I don't mean that unkindly, but Barritt & Tuilagi are not as strong in distribution, despite their very obvious other exceptional capabilities).

It will be interesting to see whether Aus find a way to exploit what we are doing - perhaps turnover ball will be even more dangerous as there is a good chance our FB will be buried under a ruck? NZ will, for sure, but then they usually score off turnover ball anyway. I hope it will give us something of an edge which might make the difference against the top teams (ex NZ)...

[beshocked]

Agreed Dave... I was particularly encouraged by the clever tactics SL put in place for Goode. If it is persevered with and fine-tuned, it should really help bring out the best in our otherwise limited centres. (I don't mean that unkindly, but Barritt & Tuilagi are not as strong in distribution, despite their very obvious other exceptional capabilities).

It will be interesting to see whether Aus find a way to exploit what we are doing - perhaps turnover ball will be even more dangerous as there is a good chance our FB will be buried under a ruck? NZ will, for sure, but then they usually score off turnover ball anyway. I hope it will give us something of an edge which might make the difference against the top teams (ex NZ)...

Personally I would rather have Barritt and Tuilagi up against Nonu and Smith than most other potential centre combos.

[pjm1]

Agreed Dave... I was particularly encouraged by the clever tactics SL put in place for Goode. If it is persevered with and fine-tuned, it should really help bring out the best in our otherwise limited centres. (I don't mean that unkindly, but Barritt & Tuilagi are not as strong in distribution, despite their very obvious other exceptional capabilities).

It will be interesting to see whether Aus find a way to exploit what we are doing - perhaps turnover ball will be even more dangerous as there is a good chance our FB will be buried under a ruck? NZ will, for sure, but then they usually score off turnover ball anyway. I hope it will give us something of an edge which might make the difference against the top teams (ex NZ)...

Personally I would rather have Barritt and Tuilagi up against Nonu and Smith than most other potential centre combos.

It's not the centre-on-centre issue that worries me; it's more that we're seeking to play a higher-tempo, higher-risk brand of rugby (which is great!) which will inevitably lead to turnovers. When we get turned over without a fullback on his feet, we'll be ripped apart by NZ, more than any other team.

[beshocked]

It's a risk England must take if they are to win.

[pjm1]

It's a risk England must take if they are to win.

I agree. I'm utterly fed up of the old England approach of "let's not lose my too many"... I know it wasn't quite what they set out to achieve, but it was invariably the effect, against NZ at least.

To be honest, while the scoreline was a bit painful, I was actually more impressed by Scotland against NZ yesterday than I have been of England vs NZ for a long time. They tried, they succeeded a couple of times (plus one intercept) and although NZ didn't really look like losing, it felt more of a case of having to keep scoring because Scotland might well keep the tries coming, too...

[Ozzy3213]

Agree with beshocked. I want to see England going out to try to win, rather than going out to try not to lose.

Goode has looked made for international rugby in his couple of appearances so far. I am really looking to see how he goes against Australia.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

This England is under reconstruction.

Any thoughts of getting anything from the All Blacks has to be treated is fanciful at best. Indeed it might prove to be harmful in the 6Ns campaign in the long run.

Narrow, scraped wins against Oz and the bokke followed by a good old-fashioned Kiwi happy-slapping in the final test would help keep the team grounded and focused on the task in hand.

[ChequeredJersey]

What is the "task in hand?" I don't think these results will have any being in the 6N campaign at all- we must finish in tge top 4 of the world ranking at the en of the AIs. That is the task in hand. We can build a team for the future and te Spring and get good performances and blood players at the same time, I don't understand the notion that we can only focus on one target and any of tge above preclude each other, but we must aim to beat New Zealand and win all our matches this Autumn to come at least 4th in the world. Aiming for a more "attainable" target out of fear of being judged for not reaching our target is unacceptable, pointless and frankly deplorable

[Bathman_in_London]

beshocked, do you think Goode is going to be quick enough defensively against the top teams? I haven't particularly noticed it in the premiership but for the Fiji kick ahead try he seemed to be trying to hold back the Fijian rather than backing his pace to get back on the ball.

He does of course bring other attributes to the team and he has impressed in his games so far, I just wonder if he will have the cover tackling of say Foden?

[propdavid_london]

I was reasonably happy with the England performance.
Solid scrum, Lineout was OK.
Player notes -
Waldrom had an iffy game - would have preferred Morgan (or Easter).
Palmer wasnt great but Launchbury did well when he came on and showed good pace for 1 break. (I actually confused him and Robshaw on a few occasions).
Care was decisive as was Flood.
Farrell is still 2nd choice as is youngs.
Tom Youngs did well for his 1st start - looked strong and if Rowntree backs him then that will do for me.
Sharples and Monye looked Good.

1 area of concern on tactics - we didnt create too many oportunities. Lots of our scores just came from smashing through the tackle and poor Fiji defence. Better organised teams will not give us these chances, then a game becomes really tight and England may struggle.

[propdavid_london]

I should also have said that Mako Vaunipola also had a solid first run out and made a good few carries aswell as continuing the wrk rate at scrum time.

Control at the back of the scrum was a bit of an issue when going forward.
Needs to be worked on before the Oz game.
After seeing the French game, this is an area we really need to attack - but I dont expect England to make as many gains there as France did.
Oz will have some big guns returning - Ben Alexander, Pocock, Digby Ione etc.

[nathan]

I was reasonably happy with the England performance.
Solid scrum, Lineout was OK.
Player notes -
Waldrom had an iffy game - would have preferred Morgan (or Easter).
Palmer wasnt great but Launchbury did well when he came on and showed good pace for 1 break. (I actually confused him and Robshaw on a few occasions).
Care was decisive as was Flood.
Farrell is still 2nd choice as is youngs.
Tom Youngs did well for his 1st start - looked strong and if Rowntree backs him then that will do for me.
Sharples and Monye looked Good.

1 area of concern on tactics - we didnt create too many oportunities. Lots of our scores just came from smashing through the tackle and poor Fiji defence. Better organised teams will not give us these chances, then a game becomes really tight and England may struggle.

pretty much agree although I wasn't 100% happy with Care, i'm still undecided if he should start next week or not.

[propdavid_london]

I just think that Care offers that bit more structure than Youngs.
Also there is that level of consistent play from Danny where Ben has blown a bit hot and cold.
Other candidates - Wigglesworth (solidity but nothing more than that)
Simpson (injured again I believe).

[Hood83]

Launchberry, Youngs and Marler are all well known for being physical players, I don't know why this hasn't transcended to Int level though

I suppose it's early days for all of them but my thoughts are this:

Launchbury - We don't know until he gets a full run out but my thoughts at this point are that his athleticism is his big plus point alongside his work rate rather than his carrying. He's still very young and i'd expect this to improve, but if we're looking for an Etzebeth/Shaw type enforcer as suggested, I think it may come from elsewhere. Obviously, early days.

Youngs - I fear he may just be too small against the very top sides. He looks like a shrunken version of Bismarck, and that is no bad thing. His carrying against Fiji looked decent because he could spin and keep going. I think if he's gang-tackled like SA often manage, his lack of bulk may count against him. However, unless Hartley etc step up again, he may be the best option. By far and away the best thing about T Youngs is his rucking, which is 100% committed and the only example of SH rucking in our team. His tackling is pretty tenacious as well, he has great line speed.

Marler - His carrying was good, but I think people have talked it up at Prem level. He's mobile for a guy his size and bullied people at age grade level. But like youngs, i think his work-rate is the most impressive part of his game. For a prop, he's actually not that big, i think 17.5 stones I read. Compared to Connie Oustheizen (sp?) that's about 2.5 stones lighter! Personally if Corbs gets back to fitness I think he and Mako might edge ahead of Marler, with Marler providing a very good group of young LHs.

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