England v Fiji - KO 14:30 Sat 10th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions


England team to face Fiji

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 2 caps)
14. Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 7 caps)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins, 13 caps)
10. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 33 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 3 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 0 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)
4. Tom Palmer (London Wasps, 40 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 8 caps)
8. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)


Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 2 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 0 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 0 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 8 caps)
23. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 7 caps)

[LondonTiger]

With 3 rookies (Youngs, Launchbury, Vunipola) likely to be in the matchday squad I'm starting to feel a little nervous.

With so many moaning that Lancaster should have selected more rookies, it is nice to see the alternative view.

TBH though of those 3 only Launchbury was by choice - the other two due to injuries.

[majesticimperialman]

With 3 rookies (Youngs, Launchbury, Vunipola) likely to be in the matchday squad I'm starting to feel a little nervous. OK we all expect England to beat Fiji but with so little experience across the squad I fear the other SH giants could give us a spanking.

On the plus side SL is sounding confident that the squad have prepared well and will give a good account of themselves.

We will know the answer very soon now.

Have faith in SL, i certainly have a lot of faith in him....since he took over England have looked more of a settled side with no one garanteed to get in the squad. Every player knows that if they dont perform they wont get in the team, no favourites, its play your best and play for the team and the country.

Looking forward to watching the game and hopefully for a good win.

[maestegmafia]

By Gavin Mairs
11:00PM GMT 07 Nov 2012

Lancaster is expected to name a starting XV with a combined total of just 215 caps, an average of 14.3 per player. England’s bench is even more inexperienced, with an average of just 8.6 caps per player.
That takes the combined squad total to just 284 – reducing the average to 12.35 – despite the increase from 22 to 23 players for national squads this season as part of an International Rugby Board trial.
There will be three uncapped players in the squad, with Tom Youngs set to start at hooker after just nine appearances for Leicester, while Saracens prop Mako Vunipola and Wasps second row/flanker Joe Launchbury will be on the bench.
Only six players in the starting XV have won more than 10 caps, with the most experienced set to be fly-half Toby Flood, who has made 50 appearances.
With Tom Johnson and Thomas Waldrom expected to start in the back row ahead of Tom Wood, who will be named on the bench, and James Haskell, who has been released back to Wasps, England’s back row average just 4.6 caps between them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9662920/Stuart-Lancaster-to-give-inexperienced-England-side-their-chance-to-shine-against-Fiji.html

[HammerofThunor]

This seems to keep happening. Every year we seem to be putting out a really inexperienced side.

I'm guess the Tom Youngs bit should be 9 starts for Leicester as I'm pretty sure he had 8 replacement appearances last year and has started all/most games this season so far.

[LondonTiger]

Injury (or suspension) have ruled out some more experienced players such as:

Dylan Hartley 42 caps
Tom Croft 39 caps
Chris Ashton 26 caps
Ben Foden 30 caps

[HQ matt]

maestag

this is a good point, there many england supporters that would have more inexperienced players involved, I think lancaster has found the right balance as his hand has been forced by injuries and retirements.

[Cumbrian]

This seems to keep happening. Every year we seem to be putting out a really inexperienced side.

I'm guess the Tom Youngs bit should be 9 starts for Leicester as I'm pretty sure he had 8 replacement appearances last year and has started all/most games this season so far.

I though that, so I had a quick dig. According to the Premiership rugby site he has started ten games for Leicester and come on as sub in 14. Plus, that doesn't include the games he has played in the Heineken and LV cups...Saying that, I still reckon is a fair way short of even 50 Leicester games. I was under the impression he had played a lot more for some reason.

[Geordie]

Just really pleased to see Launchbury likely to be on the bench.

[LondonTiger]

Youngs started all the matches this season, until the Saints game when he was with England.

In total he has started 20 matches for tigers and come off the bench 20 times. About 25% of those are prior to converting to hooker.

He played most of the 2009/10 and the entire 2010/11 season at Nottingham.


He is very inexperienced. (though more experienced than Mako )

[Cumbrian]

I think experienced is overrated as long as you've got a couple of guys who have been about a bit. Some people (not accusing anyone here) seem to get so hung up on it, a good player is a good player.

Experience will give a player more composure and new tricks, but he isn't inherently rubbish because he is untestested.

[RubyGuby]

England have consistently failed to blood young players for many years - This is a refreshing change by Lancaster and should be encouraged

[HERSH]

England team to face Fiji

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 2 caps)
14. Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 7 caps)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins, 13 caps)
10. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 33 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 3 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 0 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)
4. Tom Palmer (London Wasps, 40 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 8 caps)
8. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)


Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 2 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 0 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 0 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 8 caps)
23. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 7 caps)

[Jimpy]

With 3 rookies (Youngs, Launchbury, Vunipola) likely to be in the matchday squad I'm starting to feel a little nervous. OK we all expect England to beat Fiji but with so little experience across the squad I fear the other SH giants could give us a spanking.

On the plus side SL is sounding confident that the squad have prepared well and will give a good account of themselves.

We will know the answer very soon now.

Fiji are a SH giant aren't they? Just ask the Welsh team.

[Geordie]

England have consistently failed to blood young players for many years - This is a refreshing change by Lancaster and should be encouraged

Disagree with this actually...i think Martin Johnson gave a whole host of youngsters their first caps...which seems to be long forgotten.

[ChequeredJersey]

It's fine, except the backs on the bench. Brown should start or not play, Farrell probably shouldn't play based on form and Youngs should get his game backto its best at Tigers as he is so similar to Care in many respects that having him stops us from changing the gameplan mid match

[Geordie]

Well if things go to plan...and Fiji are tiring...and England are ready to open up...we will bring on ..........Farrell to shut things up and keep it tight.... oh lordy lordy.

Aside from that...pretty much as we expected.

[Alex_Germany]

So 215 caps for the starting 15, makes 165 caps for the 14 excluding Flood. Or about 12 each.

List of cap numbers is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_rugby_union_team

Other "seasoned" players are Palmer, Care, Cole.

If Robshaw has to go off, who will take over as Captain? Flood? Or Wood from the bench?

Floods experience means he has to be favourite to start in all tests. Farrell does offer something different from the bench, so it'll be difficult to get Burns in.

[thomh]

England have consistently failed to blood young players for many years - This is a refreshing change by Lancaster and should be encouraged

Disagree with this actually...i think Martin Johnson gave a whole host of youngsters their first caps...which seems to be long forgotten.

Yeh, the 04-08 period was when we failed to give youngsters a chance. That's probably also the answer to Lancaster's question about why the squad he was left with had so many players aged 30+, so many aged 23-25, and almost no-one in their late twenties. Johnson had given a load of guys their first England caps:

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5.
6. Wood
7.
8

9. Care/Youngs
10.
11. Monye
12. Tuilagi
13. Armitage
14. Ashton
15. Foden

There's also guys like Flood, Croft, Haskell etc who did have a few England caps but were by no means established when Johnson took over.

[ChequeredJersey]

Robshaw won't go off. If he does, Palmer or Wood to lead

[Geordie]

If Robson has to go off, who will take over as Captain? Flood? Or Wood from the bench?

If Robshaw goes off...you have a few who can take over...Dan Cole is an experienced head now...Palmer...obviosly Wood from the bench...so there are options...

Floods experience means he has to be favourite to start in all tests. Farrell does offer something different from the bench, so it'll be difficult to get Burns in. .

What does Farrell offer though that Burns hasnt this season? Farrell offers composure and a supposed good tactical kicing game....well personally i think that part of Burns game has been excellent this season...controlling the game tactically....but then he has that creative ability to make things happen in the right places...unlike (at the moment) Farrell.

Ill be watching Farrell with interest in this game particularly...as we "should" be creating a lot of space for the backs...and i want to see he is able to do with that...

[EnglishReign]

SL said it's difficult for a new 10 to become familiar with the system in such a short time, but Farrell made his debut out of nowhere in the 6 nations.

Surely if Burns is ever gonna play and learn the "system", put him up against Fiji!

Back to the actual matchday squad, I like it. Considering the injuries, it's looking good. Should be a good win.

[thomh]

SL said it's difficult for a new 10 to become familiar with the system in such a short time, but Farrell made his debut out of nowhere in the 6 nations.

Farrell made his debut at centre after being with the squad for the whole training period. By the time he started at fly half he'd been with the squad 5 weeks. Burns was called up a week in and had two days with the squad before they chose the team.

[IanBru]

Any idea when the Fiji squad are announced?

I'm very much hoping that Nikos Matawalu will start at scrum half - playing for Glasgow last friday, he had a simply incredible game. Worth watching the highlights.

[Adam]

Broadly, I've always been a big fan of Lancaster's starting XV selections, but slightly questioning of his bench, and this selection is no different.

I don't see what Farrell offers from the bench. Would prefer to have seen Burns given 20 mins at the end. Although Farrell, in fairness to him, hasn't really done anything to be dropped from the squad so I can see the case for a bit of loyalty and encouragement for the lad.

I'd like to have seen Brown starting, but fair enough: Goode is hardly a weak option. In fact, this probably hints more at gameplan than at who Lancaster feels is the better player.

Re: the earlier point about experience - I agree with those saying it's not the be all and end all. E.g, I feel pretty confident in that backrow in spite of the meagre 13 caps between them!

[gregortree]

England (v Fiji, 2.30pm Saturday, Twickenham Stadium)
15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 2 caps)
14. Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 7 caps)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins, 13 caps)
10. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 33 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 3 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 0 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)
4. Tom Palmer (London Wasps, 40 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 8 caps)
8. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)

Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 2 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 0 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 0 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 8 caps)
23. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 7 caps)

[gregortree]

Taking it totally seriously then, plus one or two virgin newbies sprinkled judiciously in. Hope Tom Youngs has practised his pie chucking.

[nathan]

Taking it totally seriously then, plus one or two virgin newbies sprinkled judiciously in. Hope Tom Youngs has practised his pie chucking.

it's nowhere near as bad as people make out, of course he's going to throw a couple that go wayward but he'll just get on with it.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

FLYING FIJIANS NAMED FOR ENGLAND TEST:

01. Penijamini Makutu
02. Viliame Veikoso
03. Deacon Manu (c)
04. Leone Nakarawa
05. Api Ratuniyara
06. Api Naikatini
07. Malakai Ravulo
08. Akapusi Qera
09. Nikola Matawalu
10. Metuisela Talebula
11. Watisoni Votu
12. Sireli Naqelevuki (v-c)
13. Vereniki Goneva
14. Samu Wara
15. Simeli Koniferedi
RESERVES
16. Setefano Somoca
17. Seremaia Naurere
18. Manasa Saulo
19. Seko Kalou
20. Iliesa Ratuva
21. Kelemedi Bola
22. Ravai Fatiaki
23. Josh Matavesi

[Effervescing Elephant]

Typical Fijians poaching young Cornish talent. When will enough be enough?

[RubyGuby]

England have been poaching Cornish talent for years mate

[gregortree]

Yes, I 'm sure if left alone Cornwall could make it into an RBS 7 nations.
To be coached by Phil Vickery and Gaham Dawe. Who else did we nick from the Tin Kingdom in more recent years ? I'm sure there are a few over the years.

[LondonTiger]

Manu v Goneva at 13 will be interesting. Goneva has good feet and could cause Manu some problems. However his tackling is a bit lightweight so in turn Manu could cause him some issues.

A lot of tackling for Barritt on Naqelethingy

[RubyGuby]

Martin Haag
Ollie Barkley and many many others

[LondonTiger]

Yes, I 'm sure if left alone Cornwall could make it into an RBS 7 nations.
To be coached by Phil Vickery and Gaham Dawe. Who else did we nick from the Tin Kingdom in more recent years ? I'm sure there are a few over the years.

Chris Martin of Bath and England. His display against Scotland (I think) was the worst I have ever seen from an England Full Back. Yes, worse than Monye.

[Chjw131]

It's fine, except the backs on the bench. Brown should start or not play, Farrell probably shouldn't play based on form and Youngs should get his game backto its best at Tigers as he is so similar to Care in many respects that having him stops us from changing the gameplan mid match

Spot on Chequered that's exactly my view. Poor bench selections seem to be a Lancaster trait at the moment that he hasn't really addressed. As you say Brown either needs to play or not be in the 23. He covers only one position and whilst being an excellent player there are better impact subs I could think of.

I'm quite happy to see Youngs there, he had an excellent game against The Ospreys but was a little more subdued against Saints. Dickson would've brought something different and may have been a better bench option.

Farrell...well as Geordie noted above when it starts to break up gone 60 minutes what would possess you to bring on Farrell to kick the life out of it?! And let's not say development of his attacking skills. That needs to be done at AP level not throwing risky passes in an international fixture.

[Geordie]

We sent Ollie Barkley back....!

I think this could be an interesting game for England. Looking at this Fiji actually have some decent players...not sure who their FH is mind...but they could certainly give us a decent run for 60 mins

[Effervescing Elephant]

England have been poaching Cornish talent for years mate

Well until Cornwall gain their independence (please make it soon, i can't stand the moaning anymore) we're all they've got boy-chap!

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Martin Haag
Ollie Barkley and many many others

Not forgetting Luke Charteris, of course.

[Chjw131]

I think we'd have plenty of front rowers ( Phil Vickery, Julian White, Dawe etc..) i'm just not so sure about the backs.

[RubyGuby]

Chris Martin of Bath and England. His display against Scotland (I think) was the worst I have ever seen from an England Full Back. Yes, worse than Monye.[/quote]

plus 2

[Chjw131]

Naqelevuki is a unit among units in that Fiji team. Come 60 minutes though I would expect them to tire, unless they're still within a score. In which case it could be an interesting game. Mako Vunipola to come on and score a hat-trick in 10 minutes.

[gregortree]

Ruby, thanks, did not realise those 2 were. I kinda presumed Haag was Dutch, without having really giving it any proper thought. Olly has gone over the water for French Gold. Did Wales nick any Cornishmen ? Or only the Glos lads ?

[RubyGuby]

England have been poaching Cornish talent for years mate

Well until Cornwall gain their independence (please make it soon, i can't stand the moaning anymore) we're all they've got boy-chap!

Wrong again mate try Andy Reid and Luke Charteris for starters joinging their celtic bretheren I'm surprised you guys didn't snatch Josh Matevisi

[Effervescing Elephant]

England have been poaching Cornish talent for years mate

Well until Cornwall gain their independence (please make it soon, i can't stand the moaning anymore) we're all they've got boy-chap!

Wrong again mate try Andy Reid and Luke Charteris for starters joinging their celtic bretheren I'm surprised you guys didn't snatch Josh Matevisi

Very good point there Ruby it seems more natural for the Cornish to play for Wales for some reason, that could be my natural Devonshire aversion to all things Cornish showing! Although Josh is a talented young player (ex Chief and all) he wouldn't get near an England or Wales side. Blydi nice bloke though.

[RubyGuby]

Ex Chief!! You Devon boys like the Cornish when it suits you eh!

[Effervescing Elephant]

Ex Chief!! You Devon boys like the Cornish when it suits you eh!

He, we have an 'arrangement'. We come in the night with sticks and whistles and drive 'em over the border. By morning they're all good Devon men and true!

[RubyGuby]

At least that saves them going to Bath A very successful Truro School team is producing a lot of future talent so the future looks bright for you apart from 1 of those young prospects who's destined for Wales

[Effervescing Elephant]

At least that saves them going to Bath A very successful Truro School team is producing a lot of future talent so the future looks bright for you apart from 1 of those young prospects who's destined for Wales

Bang on mate, Truro are a hot bed of rugby talent. They get loads of help from Chiefs academy and with the dual registration deal with Pirates the future is rosy for Cornish rugby

[RubyGuby]

I'm actually sitting in my office in Truro writing this

[gregortree]

This is an England International we are supposed to be talking about.
Not a W Country inter-county grudge match !

[Sponsored content]