Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[dublin_dave]

thoroughly uninspiring. We will try and beat them in an arm wrestle. We may just be fresh enough to do so. Will paper over the cracks for another few months i guess. 8th place secured job done more guff spouted by Thornley, Keith Wood and this Conor George wally.

good luck to gilroy he will need it outside that 9,10,12,13 combo. Hope he is good at chasing boxkicks

Darcy must have set the record for appearances over an 18month period with an average rating out of ten of less than 6. Swapping wings with Deccies game plan is horses for courses. I would have loved to see a change at 9 and 12, 13 at a push.

[GunsGerms]

We will scrape a no try win and Kidney will be kept on. The question is would anyone sacrifice a win for a guarantee of a new manager? I would.

[profitius]

DK does the usual

Drop Trimble first chance he gets.

Keep a tired center partnership.

talking points for me was henderson not starting, think he deserved that.

Gilroy starting, it was 50/50 between him and Trimble.

Earls starting, he does every team DK picks as long as he's at least 75% fit, and D'arcy at 12?

I think Trimble may have started, if there had been a change somewhere else in the team, but he had to make a change.
Also while we are saying D'arcy is sound defensivly, do we need a defensive 12, against the hard hitting Springboks yes, against Argentina no, a creative 12 would be better. but Marshall Earls is a bit light weight, would have needed Marshall Cave, but that would have ment droping Earls, and DK won't do that, or move Earls to wing, and Gilroy doesn't get in?

I'd have played Luke Marshall and Cave. They've better skills than Earls and D'Arcy. Its fair to say that Earls might be lacking that extra bit of class that an international center needs. Its also fair to say that Trimble lacks some of the basic skills international wingers need. Thats not to say he is a bad player - he isn't - but at international level any faults will be exploited. Look at Bowes contribution against SA compared to Trimbles. I wouldn't say Kidney is being harsh on Trimble but maybe him being the only change makes it seem that way.


Going back to the game, its a great opportunity for Argentina to win and prove the doubters (like myself) wrong.

[dublin_dave]

i dont care whether we drop below 8th. If it means we change our way of playing and give youth its fling il run the risk of a poxy world cup group thank you very much. If things don't go your way in the WC draw even ranked 8th you can get the group of death.

I just want to come back from 2 or 3 games Irish in a row and not have a 1000 post post mortem on here about our failings.

I want watching Ireland to be fun. It has been terrible for the last 2 years terrible. Winning is important but not everything. At the moment we are terrible to watch and not getting good results

[rodders]

oh here we go...Rodders has been cowered by Boynes slagging off and is now doing the classic team up move......this could get interesting...

or not as the case may be...

shhhh DOD I'm just keeping Boyne sweet.....between you and me the real elephant isn't even Earls......its Jonny Sexton.......

[GunsGerms]

I dont think Earls nor David Skrela lack class at all. Earls is a Lion and Skrela has almost 50 caps. The match v Argentina would have been his 50th.

[ME-109]

oh here we go...Rodders has been cowered by Boynes slagging off and is now doing the classic team up move......this could get interesting...

or not as the case may be...

shhhh DOD I'm just keeping Boyne sweet.....between you and me the real elephant isn't even Earls......its Jonny Sexton.......

[GunsGerms]

Speaking of which Paddy Jackson had a good game v Fiji. Though obviously its tough to tell how good he is from that match he would be worth a run out as sub.

[Mickado]

15 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/2 caps)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/50)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster/33)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/70)
11 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster) *
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster/33)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/13)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/34)
2 - Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/1)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/23)
4 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/22)
5 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/5)
6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/8)
7 - Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/3)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster/51) (capt)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/22)
17 - David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/1)
18 - Michael Bent (Leinster/1)
19 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/89)
20 - Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster/1)
21 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/46)
22 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/125)
23 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/15)

Well done Craig.

[MrsP]

If all we learned from the Fiji game was that we couldn't learn anything from a game against Fiji, why did we arrange a game against Fiji?

[clivemcl]

Some folks on here dont see the stupidity of their arguments.

The same people who are saying 'Bravo Gilroy, well deserved after that great individual performance against FIJI!'
are also saying 'You can't just assume Marshall is up to the standard on one performance - i mean it was only FIJI after all'

And thats already hypocritical before you even consider the fact that the distance by which Marshalls performance against Fiji was better than Darcy's v SA, is a significantly greater gap than the distance by which Gilroys performance v Fiji was better than Trimbles outing v SA.

In summary:

Trimble wasnt great v SA - Gilroy was great versus Fiji - Gilroy takes Trimbles place - Everyones happy

D'arcy wasnt great v SA - Marshall was great versus Fiji - The very idea of Marshall taking D'Arcys shirt - NOT ON YER NELLY!

[Notch]

Good luck to gilroy he will need it outside that 9,10,12,13 combo. Hope he is good at chasing boxkicks

This is the thing. Trimble is the better player without the ball.The reason Trimble has been starting ahead of him at provincial level is Trimble is a better defender, better positionally, more physical and his chasing game is key for Ulster.

Ireland would actually probably be getting better use out of Trimble if we gave him box kicks he could chase! Most of our boxes against the Boks were either clearances from inside the 22 or down the middle. When you see Trimble going terrier like after box kicks and restarts for Ulster, challenging well and causing havoc it is depressing to see those things fall by the wayside for Ireland. If he transferred his Ulster form he'd still be starting.

But yeah- Gilroy is a less effective chaser or tackler. He is, however, more likely to create something out of nothing. He has this low centre of gravity and a killer step off both feet- give him a slight gap and he seems to slip and spin through it. I think thats our whole plan from 10.

a) Ship it wide
b) It gets to a back who tries to create something from nothing
c) ???
d) Try!

[Notch]

Trimble wasnt great v SA - Gilroy was great versus Fiji - Gilroy takes Trimbles place - Everyones happy

D'arcy wasnt great v SA - Marshall was great versus Fiji - The very idea of Marshall taking D'Arcys shirt - NOT ON YER NELLY!

Steady now!

There's actually a lot of truth in that. Though it's also true that Gilroy already has a lot more experience than Marshall despite being roughly the same age, which is probably the main reason for this in Kidneys mind at least.

D'Arcy is something of a sacred cow. It's confusing.

[MunsterMac]

I always find it very amusing to see the rubbish posted on occasions like these by our many 'hurlers on the ditch'.

I can just imagine that if most of them were suddenly dropped into the position of HAVING to pick the team against Argentina many of them would suddenly swing from being extreme left liberals to ardent conservatives overnight when faced with the reality of the situation i.e. multiple injuries to key players, critical game which affects our seeding for the next WC, instructions / interference from the IRFU as to team picking policy etc, etc.

I'll bet in such circumstances we'd find that 'over the hill' players would suddenly become 'experienced campaigners' and 'exciting young talent' would become 'raw and inexperienced'.

[The Great Aukster]

Gilroy coming in for Trimble - thought Kidney didn't pander to the media?

Then again it doesn't really matter who is on the wing if they don't see the ball, but it will be interesting to see whether losing Trimble's work at the ruck makes any difference, good or bad.

[Keesie_kee]

@Munster: Love sacks.......even jeremy bloody guscott knows that we should be harnessing our youths talent!

[clivemcl]

I always find it very amusing to see the rubbish posted on occasions like these by our many 'hurlers on the ditch'.

I can just imagine that if most of them were suddenly dropped into the position of HAVING to pick the team against Argentina many of them would suddenly swing from being extreme left liberals to ardent conservatives overnight when faced with the reality of the situation i.e. multiple injuries to key players, critical game which affects our seeding for the next WC, instructions / interference from the IRFU as to team picking policy etc, etc.

I'll bet in such circumstances we'd find that 'over the hill' players would suddenly become 'experienced campaigners' and 'exciting young talent' would become 'raw and inexperienced'.

But then again, most of the top stars in world rugby were probably picked out early in their careers and gambled on. But sure, we will just wait until they are all 27 or so and have lost that youthful exuberance. They are easier to force into a limited game plan when they are older having been forced to jump through hoops to eventually get their due rewards in the national team.

[MunsterMac]

But then again, most of the top stars in world rugby were probably picked out early in their careers and gambled on. But sure, we will just wait until they are all 27 or so and have lost that youthful exuberance. They are easier to force into a limited game plan when they are older having been forced to jump through hoops to eventually get their due rewards in the national team.

I'm not argueing the rights or wrongs of whether players should be introduced I'm just saying that it's very easy to come on here and castigate DK but if most of us were put in his position tomorrow we could well find ourselves picking largely the same team and probably for the same reasons that he picked that team.

I've always thought that I'd run the country far better than any of our politicians........that is of course until someone asks me.

[Mickado]

But then again, most of the top stars in world rugby were probably picked out early in their careers and gambled on. But sure, we will just wait until they are all 27 or so and have lost that youthful exuberance. They are easier to force into a limited game plan when they are older having been forced to jump through hoops to eventually get their due rewards in the national team.

I'm not argueing the rights or wrongs of whether players should be introduced I'm just saying that it's very easy to come on here and castigate DK but if most of us were put in his position tomorrow we could well find ourselves picking largely the same team and probably for the same reasons that he picked that team.
I've always thought that I'd run the country far better than any of our politicians........that is of course until someone asks me.

That's probably why most of us are not the Ireland coach. It doesn't explain why Kidney IS though.

[GunsGerms]

CONOR MURRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrsP]

I reckon we could have picked a better team if we had reverted to the old trick of just finding a player who fitted the jersey.

Who plays 9?

Well this is our smallest jersey so it'll never fit you Conor! PMarsh or Earls......Earls, you're too tall, just. So Paul Marshall it is.

12?

Darcy you are too thin .....L Marshall.

13?

Don't be silly Keith! Too thin and too short.........Cave!

Sorted.

The only exceptions are that the lad who brought the oranges and the lad who owns the ball both get to start.

I think we all know who those are!



.

[MunsterMac]

That's probably why most of us are not the Ireland coach. It doesn't explain why Kidney IS though.

My way of thinking is that it wouldn't matter who was in charge.

You could get Joe Schmidt in in the morning but as part of the appointment process he would be sat down in front of the IRFU and told exactly what his selection policy should be i.e. ALWAYS pick your apparently strongest team in the 6N and against other tier one countries.

That doesn't leave alot of room for experimentation or bold selection policies unless of course you're crippled with injuries.

Consequently coaches with strong independent characters won't take the job and you're left with the compliant ones who do what they're told.

The IRFU is an ultra ULTRA conservative organisation.

[GunsGerms]

That's probably why most of us are not the Ireland coach. It doesn't explain why Kidney IS though.

My way of thinking is that it wouldn't matter who was in charge.

You could get Joe Schmidt in in the morning but as part of the appointment process he would be sat down in front of the IRFU and told exactly what his selection policy should be i.e. ALWAYS pick your apparently strongest team in the 6N and against other tier one countries.

That doesn't leave alot of room for experimentation or bold selection policies unless of course you're crippled with injuries.

Consequently coaches with strong independent characters won't take the job and you're left with the compliant ones who do what they're told.

The IRFU is an ultra ULTRA conservative organisation.

Where is your evidence that the IRFU is conservative? In fairness to the IRFU Ireland have probably progressed more that any nation in the professional era and they are very smart in how they have structured rugby in the country to ensure that we maximise our resources at all times.

Yes they have made mistakes, ticket pricing, contingency plans in terms of props etc., not sacking Kidney yet. However, they remain one of the best run sporting organisations in ireland.

Even if it were true that the IRFU influence team selection to the extent that you are illuding to the biggest difference that someone like Schmidt would make is in coaching. He has never-ending imagination for improvements that can be made, innovation and creativity. Kidney by contrast is bereft of any clue how to take this team forward. Thats have been clear for years now. Its no surprise Drico contstatly sings Schmidt's praises and has been known to say that he learns something new from Schmidt every day.

[dublin_dave]

Munster Mac i dont disagree with you with regards the IRFU being a conservative organisation

However do you honestly think Kidney lets them interfere this much in the day to day running of the Irish team?

I think on here we all agree on at least 12 of Kidneys selected starting 15 for all gaames. We just love an argument about the contentious 3. But the overriding issue is the style of play and the fact are results and performances by in large are quite poor

I think our backline would be significantly more potent if Joel Schmidt was at the helm. Likewise Eddie O'Sullivan even that horrible little Aussie toe rag David Knox and at a push Alan Gaffney

[MunsterMac]

Where is your evidence that the IRFU is conservative?

Well for one Eddie O'Sullivan has made it clear many times in interviews that when he was in charge he was instructed to always pick his strongest team for each match and that the 6N was no place for experimentation i.e. always use tried and trusted players.

That basically leaves you with the November Internationals and the Summer tour & when you boil it down as most of those matches are against RC sides we're only left with the likes of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga to experiment against except of course in a Lions year when we play the likes of Canada, USA and Japan.

[Mcgavin Sean]

Conor George is essentially kidneys fluffer. He makes Farrelly look balanced.

It shows how impotent Kidney is that he now requires two fluffers Thornley and George to boost his flagging stock.

[MunsterMac]

Dublin Dave

Yes but I'm not talking about style of play I'm talking about the people who want wholesale changes to personnel for the Argentina match.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Dublin_Dave just posted something really insightful by mentioning David Knox, the only coach that had the balls to criticise the IRFU openly. FIVE years ago he had a few choice words to say about Kidney. I thought I'd post some of them just as a term of reference.

"It's a big mistake to choose Declan Kidney as the new coach...The Irish international team badly needed a foreign coach. After the Eddie O'Sullivan era, they wanted someone to test these guys, show them a new way to play."

"The Munster people think he [Kidney] is a messiah but I just don't understand that."

"I have been here for three years and I have never seen him [O'Gara] create space for anybody. Yet over here he ranks with Dan Carter as the best fly-half in the world. I have never heard such rubbish."

"To me, guys like Ronan O'Gara and Stephen Jones of Wales are very similar. They're great provincial players for their team because they have a way of playing and they've been doing it for years. But when they go to the next level and they face the very best players in the world, they are out of their depth. You need to do more than that at Test level but they can't do it."

He also criticised Munster's limited style of rugby as part of the reason for Ireland's players' continual inability to succeed internationally.
"Munster's record is fantastic but you can't tell me they play anything but 10-man rugby. Unfortunately, players can't just switch on style play when they get into the international arena."

He also criticised the selection policies. "I have watched Ireland for three years and it's been the same every time, nothing different. No variety, no attacking runners coming around the back of the man on attacking runs. And the personnel hasn't changed either." Thank goodness Kidney had rectified this.

In particular he looked at playing people out of positions.
"Horgan's best position is wing yet they picked him at centre when O'Driscoll and/or D'Arcy was injured. They had no one else. But they never put any pressure on the guys in the team. Yet that's what coaching is about: finding people and improving them, evolving a different game and making sure you move forward as a team." This is of course the complete opposite to playing a winger at 13 who cant even throw a 5 yard pass. But sure, its Bowe's fault for being too slow.

Knox also cited Ireland's inability to counter the speed rush defence they encountered in the 2007 World Cup as an example of how they had prepared poorly with a blinkered approach. "They didn't have any answer to that but I suppose they felt everything was going well and they didn't need to worry," he said. Sure that absolutely nothing like the 2011 and defeat the Wales.

Now as we all know, because I have quoted this from the press as some posters do it absolutely should be treated as gospel and 100% undisputable fact.

[dublin_dave]

Knoxy was a class backs coach for Leinster. Pity our pack were dreadful.

[Warthog]

Dublin_Dave just posted something really insightful by mentioning David Knox, the only coach that had the balls to criticise the IRFU openly. FIVE years ago he had a few choice words to say about Kidney. I thought I'd post some of them just as a term of reference.

"It's a big mistake to choose Declan Kidney as the new coach...The Irish international team badly needed a foreign coach. After the Eddie O'Sullivan era, they wanted someone to test these guys, show them a new way to play."

"The Munster people think he [Kidney] is a messiah but I just don't understand that."

"I have been here for three years and I have never seen him [O'Gara] create space for anybody. Yet over here he ranks with Dan Carter as the best fly-half in the world. I have never heard such rubbish."

"To me, guys like Ronan O'Gara and Stephen Jones of Wales are very similar. They're great provincial players for their team because they have a way of playing and they've been doing it for years. But when they go to the next level and they face the very best players in the world, they are out of their depth. You need to do more than that at Test level but they can't do it."

He also criticised Munster's limited style of rugby as part of the reason for Ireland's players' continual inability to succeed internationally.
"Munster's record is fantastic but you can't tell me they play anything but 10-man rugby. Unfortunately, players can't just switch on style play when they get into the international arena."

He also criticised the selection policies. "I have watched Ireland for three years and it's been the same every time, nothing different. No variety, no attacking runners coming around the back of the man on attacking runs. And the personnel hasn't changed either." Thank goodness Kidney had rectified this.

In particular he looked at playing people out of positions.
"Horgan's best position is wing yet they picked him at centre when O'Driscoll and/or D'Arcy was injured. They had no one else. But they never put any pressure on the guys in the team. Yet that's what coaching is about: finding people and improving them, evolving a different game and making sure you move forward as a team." This is of course the complete opposite to playing a winger at 13 who cant even throw a 5 yard pass. But sure, its Bowe's fault for being too slow.

Knox also cited Ireland's inability to counter the speed rush defence they encountered in the 2007 World Cup as an example of how they had prepared poorly with a blinkered approach. "They didn't have any answer to that but I suppose they felt everything was going well and they didn't need to worry," he said. Sure that absolutely nothing like the 2011 and defeat the Wales.

Now as we all know, because I have quoted this from the press as some posters do it absolutely should be treated as gospel and 100% undisputable fact.

Yip. Agree with all of that. Lets see what Munstermicko, eh, Sin E, comes up with in defence... probably an essay he did in school about how great Munster is...

[ME-109]

This the same David Knox who is such a good coach that he is now coaching some high flying team....any one know which one????

[dublin_dave]

I do not even know where he is now DOD By all accounts the fella would start an argument in an empty room and could be a bit of a dose so he may struggle in interviews

He was however responsible for some of the best back play i have seen by a team on this island thats for sure and that was without anything that resembles a platform up front to provide go forward.

[GunsGerms]

This the same David Knox who is such a good coach that he is now coaching some high flying team....any one know which one????

The same team as Eddie O'Sullivan coaches I assume?

[Notch]

David Knox may be famous for being, ahem, 'outspoken' but he's just about nailed a whole host of the things that are holding us back as a rugby nation there.

[Notch]

My way of thinking is that it wouldn't matter who was in charge.

You could get Joe Schmidt in in the morning but as part of the appointment process he would be sat down in front of the IRFU and told exactly what his selection policy should be i.e. ALWAYS pick your apparently strongest team in the 6N and against other tier one countries.Consequently coaches with strong independent characters won't take the job and you're left with the compliant ones who do what they're told.

And MunsterMac nailed the rest of the ones Knox didn't. The IRFU want a yes man, and they've got him. I can envision them deciding to keep him too so long as results don't go totally south.

[Sin é]

David Knox may be famous for being, ahem, 'outspoken' but he's just about nailed a whole host of the things that are holding us back as a rugby nation there.

But the thing is, Leinster won nothing with him as backs coach until they got rid of him and brought back Gaffney.

Didn't he accuse Mike Brewer of bullying him. He was a bit of a disaster in Leinster. You don't hear too many of the players mentioning him kindly. They thought he was a lunatic as well.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

David Knox may be famous for being, ahem, 'outspoken' but he's just about nailed a whole host of the things that are holding us back as a rugby nation there.

But the thing is, Leinster won nothing with him as backs coach until they got rid of him and brought back Gaffney.

Didn't he accuse Mike Brewer of bullying him. He was a bit of a disaster in Leinster. You don't hear too many of the players mentioning him kindly. They thought he was a lunatic as well.

Mike Brewer was pretty good at falling out with people over the years too

[Sin é]

Apparently they wouldn't talk to each other - great that your backs coach won't talk to your forwards coach. Poor Cheika!

I can't wait to read some of the Leinster boys bios of that era. Throw in Contempomi into the mix and the place would have been em, very excitable!

He never forgave Munster for the way they beat Leinster in the '06 semi (known as Black Sunday in Leinster circles)!

[dublin_dave]

sin look at our pack the year we beat Toulouse and you hockeyed us in the semis. It was terrible really bad.

bryce williams, an ancient will green, cameron jowitt, brian blaney all starters.

that year was a classic example of how packs win games backs decide by how much. Cant blame Knox for that

[LeinsterFan4life]

Apparently they wouldn't talk to each other - great that your backs coach won't talk to your forwards coach. Poor Cheika!

I can't wait to read some of the Leinster boys bios of that era. Throw in Contempomi into the mix and the place would have been em, very excitable!

He never forgave Munster for the way they beat Leinster in the '06 semi (known as Black Sunday in Leinster circles)!

We got revenge in 09'

[JmD]

One of the big problems with Irish rugby right now is the ridiculous attitude held by fans and coaches alike that it's somehow 'risky' to make a change to a team. Why? Why is the whole team suddenly going to collapse if a player is dropped? Especially when that player is contributing very little to the team.

Do you think anyone from New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, England, France, Wales, Scotland or whoever would bat an eyelid at a change being made? Of course they wouldn't, yet somehow it would put the Irish team in danger if the under-performing (for the last 5+ years) D'Arcy was dropped for a much more exciting prospect who is in better form. It's total nonsense.

I wish any Irish fan and coach who thinks changing selection is a risk would take look at how teams much better than Ireland pick their in form players regardless of experience, and don't call it a 'risk' to drop someone.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Which fans on here dont want players to be droped?

[Notch]

David Knox may be famous for being, ahem, 'outspoken' but he's just about nailed a whole host of the things that are holding us back as a rugby nation there.

But the thing is, Leinster won nothing with him as backs coach until they got rid of him and brought back Gaffney.

Didn't he accuse Mike Brewer of bullying him. He was a bit of a disaster in Leinster. You don't hear too many of the players mentioning him kindly. They thought he was a lunatic as well.

Logical fallacys 101- an ad hominem argument is an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument.

Yep, lunatic and a headcase as well as a good thinker on attacking play in the modern game. And absolutely on the money about this. Would I want him back in some capacity? No, not really. Is he right about the pretty abysmal selection decisions and backs coaching we've had from 10 out over the years? I think so. His blaming of Munster sounds rather out of date, Munster have realised they need to evolve from their 'traditional values' to get back on top of the pile. But its not about Munster- it's a mindset, and he's skewered it. Munster are moving on from it but Ireland are still rather more reactionary in some way. In some ways.

I await the second tactic of Sin...

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Attacking a straw man is an attempt to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition and to refute that, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

[ME-109]

omg you would a actually think old knoxy knew what he was talking about.....he was like a poor extra from Kath & Kim..the fact that someone quoted him says it all

[profitius]

Christ if this inter provincial sh!te continues I'll have to avoid these threads. Its becoming so smegging boring at this stage.

[Pot Hale]

With the two sides fielded, I predict at least four/five tries in this match.

And Gilroy will score one of them.

[dublin_dave]

omg you would a actually think old knoxy knew what he was talking about.....he was like a poor extra from Kath & Kim..the fact that someone quoted him says it all

hahahaha .

on a lighter note lads i trust you have seen the Tommy Bowe Subway ad. Its up there with the Cian Healy berocca ad,

Heres to an improved performance and a win on Saturday a sentiment we can all agree on.

[ME-109]

omg you would a actually think old knoxy knew what he was talking about.....he was like a poor extra from Kath & Kim..the fact that someone quoted him says it all

hahahaha .

on a lighter note lads i trust you have seen the Tommy Bowe Subway ad. Its up there with the Cian Healy berocca ad,

Heres to an improved performance and a win on Saturday a sentiment we can all agree on.

+1 I completely agree

[Sin é]

David Knox may be famous for being, ahem, 'outspoken' but he's just about nailed a whole host of the things that are holding us back as a rugby nation there.

But the thing is, Leinster won nothing with him as backs coach until they got rid of him and brought back Gaffney.

Didn't he accuse Mike Brewer of bullying him. He was a bit of a disaster in Leinster. You don't hear too many of the players mentioning him kindly. They thought he was a lunatic as well.

Logical fallacys 101- an ad hominem argument is an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument.

Yep, lunatic and a headcase as well as a good thinker on attacking play in the modern game. And absolutely on the money about this. Would I want him back in some capacity? No, not really. Is he right about the pretty abysmal selection decisions and backs coaching we've had from 10 out over the years? I think so. His blaming of Munster sounds rather out of date, Munster have realised they need to evolve from their 'traditional values' to get back on top of the pile. But its not about Munster- it's a mindset, and he's skewered it. Munster are moving on from it but Ireland are still rather more reactionary in some way. In some ways.

I await the second tactic of Sin...

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Attacking a straw man is an attempt to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition and to refute that, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Knoxy is now coaching Sydney Boys High School rugby team. That is all.

[ME-109]

David Knox may be famous for being, ahem, 'outspoken' but he's just about nailed a whole host of the things that are holding us back as a rugby nation there.

But the thing is, Leinster won nothing with him as backs coach until they got rid of him and brought back Gaffney.

Didn't he accuse Mike Brewer of bullying him. He was a bit of a disaster in Leinster. You don't hear too many of the players mentioning him kindly. They thought he was a lunatic as well.

Logical fallacys 101- an ad hominem argument is an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument.

Yep, lunatic and a headcase as well as a good thinker on attacking play in the modern game. And absolutely on the money about this. Would I want him back in some capacity? No, not really. Is he right about the pretty abysmal selection decisions and backs coaching we've had from 10 out over the years? I think so. His blaming of Munster sounds rather out of date, Munster have realised they need to evolve from their 'traditional values' to get back on top of the pile. But its not about Munster- it's a mindset, and he's skewered it. Munster are moving on from it but Ireland are still rather more reactionary in some way. In some ways.

I await the second tactic of Sin...

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Attacking a straw man is an attempt to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition and to refute that, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Knoxy is now coaching Sydney Boys High School rugby team. That is all.

Apparently they are rubbish

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