Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[Cari]

Great win Ireland, congratulations
Enjoy it

Commiserations Argie

Breaker - what happened to Oz then? I didn't see any of that match.

[Notch]

Great win Ireland, congratulations
Enjoy it

Cheers mate. Commiserations

[Pot Hale]

Argentina drop to 9th in table with Ireland into 6th.

Samoa take the last Tier Two spot.

For the moment.

[Notch]

Notch - no, Oz won but only by three points.

Oh, thats a shame

[Notch]

Argentina drop to 9th in table with Ireland into 6th.

Samoa take the last Tier Two spot.

For the moment.

Go on Samoa- what a chance. Bet Ireland get Argentina again now!

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Can Wales drop out of the top 8 or are they safe?

[MBTGOG]

Argentina looked tired but that scoreline flattered them.

[Cari]

I think they can Hook.

It's still 6-3 in the Scotland game. Has the england match finished?

I tell you what, the Six Nations is suddenly looking very very interesting!!

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

South Africa are 16-6 up and looking very comfortable.

[Pal Joey]

Great win Ireland, congratulations
Enjoy it

Commiserations Argie

Breaker - what happened to Oz then? I didn't see any of that match.

They were leading 22-3 just before half time, then a penalty either side of HT, then a converted try to make it 22-16 after about 45 mins. Wallabies were all over the place, Italy smelt blood and just kept up the intensity throughout the match. We were very, very lucky.

[rodders]

Graig Gilroy MOTM.

Delighted with that result and more importantly the performance. It wasn't perfect by any stretch but I genuinely thought we'd lose that one so am not going to nit pick.... well until I've had a few later maybe....

For now Irish rugby lives to fight another day.

[Cari]

I see. I do fear for Wales next week though...

[Golden]

So another 4 years for Kidney???

[Cari]

RODDERS - there's some confusion about MOTM. RTÉ gave an award to DOR, and although Gilroy was interviewed by the BBC afterwards, no MOTM award was mentioned - except Inverdale saying it in his introduction to the interview.

[neilthom7]

So another 4 years for Kidney???

You better run Golden

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

The rankings are pretty intense right now come on Samoa.

Strauss, sexton, Ryan, zebo, Bowe, gilroy, Healy all had unreal games

Murray huge improvement won well done

Earls, pom, rog, Ross all looked poor

[Cari]

15-21 in Scotland with seven minutes to go.

[Notch]

Think thats unfair Pete. O'Mahony was poor in that he got on the wrong side of the ref. But on another day, different interpretation, he could have done the same things and won a few very handy turnovers. Just needs to learn a bit quicker how to adapt to the refs interpretation, think he will be an asset in the Six Nations.

ROG was on for 10 minutes, not sure why other than to empty the bench.

Earls had a good game with one or two really sloppy pieces of play. Wish he could cut out the mistakes! But his link play was much improved, so I'm happy with him. D'Arcy and Earls both really improved their distribution this week bar a few sloppy passes for Earls which were very much the exception- in general his passing was good.

Ross still offers not much outside the scrum but thoroughly did his job there today.

[profitius]

Excellent display from Ireland. The only downside was them easing up in the last 10 min.

I'm especially pleased for some of the players. POM showed in the first 5 min that he does have the physicality for international rugby. People who have watched him win numerous MOTM awards were never in doubt. Himself and Henry were outstanding. They covered a massive amount of ground.

Donnacha Ryan had a slow start to the season but hes back to his best now. Mike McCarthy had another good game and offers something different than other locks. Its great to see him establish himself at this late stage in his career. If you're old enough you're good enough and second rows tend to mature later and last longer. McCarthy is in the prime of his career now.

The scrum was very good. The extra games have done wonders for Ross and Schmidt will also be happy to see it. Healy was everywhere again.

The backs... finally! Ireland have finally played a game similar to the way the provinces are playing. Gilroy was electric. That performance will surely earn him a starting place on the Ulster team. He is scoring some cracking tries and can step, twist, accelerate and speeds few international wingers can match. No wonder they're comparing him to Shane Williams. Bowe and Sexton also had very good games. The other players were good too.

Conor Murray deserves some praise for that performance. He is still a young player and went backwards last season but he did everything right today. That has to be the level he plays at every week. The better back play also makes it easier for him.

[profitius]

The rankings are pretty intense right now come on Samoa.

Strauss, sexton, Ryan, zebo, Bowe, gilroy, Healy all had unreal games

Murray huge improvement won well done

Earls, pom, rog, Ross all looked poor

What game were you watching, Pete? POM was outstanding, Ross dominated the scrum. Earls looked threatening but once again showed he isn't an international center. He wasn't poor though. ROG was poor alright. Cost Ireland a try in the few min he was on. Hes Munster third best 10 these days so what he is doing playing for Ireland is a mystery only Kidney knows.

[MrsP]

I just really enjoyed watching an Ireland team that looked like they were enjoying playing rugby!

2 weeks in a row now the men in green jerseys have been playing with smiles on their faces.

Great to see the players supporting each other too. The delight from every one of those lads when Gilroy scored was just wonderful. Sexton nearly killed him mind!

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Notch

He gave away at least 3 penalties. I was at the game but I will watch I again tomorrow, in my eyes pom was poor.

Earls did straighten the line more which I really liked but how many other 13's make mistakes week after week like he does? He was better in contact w the ball but still poor without.

Again I need to see I again

Ps: delighted w the overall approach to this game

[rodders]

RODDERS - there's some confusion about MOTM. RTÉ gave an award to DOR, and although Gilroy was interviewed by the BBC afterwards, no MOTM award was mentioned - except Inverdale saying it in his introduction to the interview.

Yeah I think BBC and RTE had different awards.

Ryan had a cracking game too. I actually think he and Sexton were the leaders out there. Not overly impressed with Heaslip as a captain this Autumn at all.

[Notch]

He gave away at least 3 penalties. I was at the game but I will watch I again tomorrow, in my eyes pom was poor.

Aye, that is a problem but two of those could have been given as fair turnovers. Jaco Peyper was very, very quick to whistle and favoured the attacking side. So O'Mahony gets a pass on the first one; after that, he needs to change his approach.

[rodders]

In hindsight, a poor 40 min against SA apart, this has actually been a very positive AI series for us all things considered. We've maintained our top 8 ranking, put in two very good performances and brought some really exciting talent through (better late than never).

More positives than negatives for me .

Right would love to stay and defend those comments but gotta go watch Wales v NZ ...... .....

[asoreleftshoulder]

Impressed with Murray today,both halfbacks really stepped it up a level.

The Zebo try was a standout moment,Sexton made an excellent decision to go for the blindside,Murray had the ball and was all set to go wide but heard the shout and threw a beautiful pass from an unnatural angle,very tough skill that.Then Sexton ran hard and he had 3 runners to aim at and only 2 defenders covering,he picked out Zebo with a lovely flat pass and with his pace and finishing ability the try was easy.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Great win Ireland, congratulations
Enjoy it

Cheers Argie fan,tough end to what's been a very good year for you guys but you're definitely on the right road.

[The Boss]

Evening lads and ladies. Was working today and looking forward to getting home and watching the match I had recorded. Landed in through the door to find the recording had failed. Could have cried when I heard the score.

I take it from the comments that it was a much improved performance? Great to hear of a performance like this.

[neilthom7]

Yeah mate give it a bit then go to BBC website mate it will be on Iplayer mate.

[Notch]

Evening lads and ladies. Was working today and looking forward to getting home and watching the match I had recorded. Landed in through the door to find the recording had failed. Could have cried when I heard the score.

I take it from the comments that it was a much improved performance? Great to hear of a performance like this.

Yep, Murray was getting the ball out quickly and accurately. Sexton was running onto it, attacking the gainline and varying things more. D'Arcy and Earls were passing a lot more and making better decisions. And Gilroy and Zebo cut some sexy lines, with Gilroy showing all his stepping ability to cross the gainline on a number of occassions as well as scoring his first test try. Tommy Bowe was very hungry getting on the end of several kicks and showing all his ex-GAA skills. Basically, everything we wanted the backline to do they did. It was very gratifying!

Surely you can catch up with it later when it comes on RTE Player/BBC iPlayer?

[The Boss]

Cheers lads will do! Gald to hear it. Hopefully its the start of a turnaround and not another 1 off performance!

[Thomond]

I really don't know what to make of the game, we played well in fairness but Argentina were diabolical from around 5 minutes in, lacking intensity, not making tackles and just all around shoite. We took advantage of that to be fair and there were a lot of bright spots to today's game, like how we attacked the gainline. People were right in the last while to criticise Murray's slow ball but I felt a big part of our problem was how deep our backline was, they were turgid, not looking interested and just shovelling out shoite.


Today and indeed last week, they played at pace took it on the gainline and put some decent stuff together. We showed good hands and for the first time in a long while I actually think we played without a burden on our shoulders. We seemed to actually enjoy playing the game, guys looked for the ball and actually looked like they were having fun.

Gilroy is a slippery basterd, yes the tackling was abysmal but to have the balls and the execution to go for the line there was super stuff. Well done on your first cap kid, had a super game and there's plenty more to come.


We have too many good young wingers lads.

[rodders]

Cheers lads will do! Gald to hear it. Hopefully its the start of a turnaround and not another 1 off performance!

Far better performance Boss, second half went a bit flat but there was some cracking stuff from us and a lot of standout performances -Gilroy, Sexton, Ryan, Henry, Murray, Strauss to name a few.

Scoreline flattered Argentina really who looked very flat after a long hard season.

[profitius]

Notch

He gave away at least 3 penalties. I was at the game but I will watch I again tomorrow, in my eyes pom was poor.

Take off the blinkers pete. This is what you said a few days ago.

I see no comparison physically, if they play 100% and so do we they should win the physical fight

You (and most others) were miles off because you're underrating Irish players. POM was excellent today. The first penalty would have been a great turnover under different ref interpretations. After the ball hit the post POM collected and broke a few tackles to give Sexton a better chance to clear it. This theory about POM not being physical enough is another myth thats doing the rounds. I can only assume that people who think that are not watching Munster regularly. POM was made captain last season and won numerous MOTM awards in big games.

The problem against SA was Ireland offered no threat with the ball. Ireland had most possession which goes against the pack being smashed theory.

This result also shows up Kidneys failings over the past 2 seasons. Credit to him for getting them to perform like that but too little too late. Having ROG on the bench is another joke decision. Even ROG is admitting that hes past it now.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Great game am really pleased with that result. Am more pleased though with the way we played. For me it is an attitude thing with Ireland and like Thomond says above, a case of attacking the gain line. With Ireland it seems to be about urgency and being in an attacking mindset that is important. When lethargy sets in and we worry and play a defensive game it really is depressing. I don't care if we lose the majority of games for the next 2 years as long as we are competitve by being an attacking minded side with intensity and passion and urgency. That combined with picking players on form. Was a bit pished off with how we went soft at the end but all in all more positives than negatives.

Great game from the back 3 and Sexton and Murray much improved also. Also happy with McCarthy and Henry in the pack. To be fair I wasn't overly disappointed with anyone in the pack but the likes of Ryan and Healey I expect good performances from now due to past performances. And Strauss has come through brilliantly too which is great now to have strength in depth at hooker once Best comes back. Still think D'arcy should be dropped even though he didn't play badly today. Was just annoyed at him running sideways a couple of times and reducing the space for those outside him. Also, I am not sure whether Earls is the man for 13. Don't get me wrong I think he did quite well in many respects, but I really want to see the midfield shaken up a bit and and others given a chance.

But that's the thing, due to the injuries we've had, Kidney has been forced into giving younger untried guys starts and all of a sudden we have more strength in depth which we should be upbeat about. If he could just have the guts to give the likes of the Marshall's, Jackson/Hanrahan/Madigan and Cave a go then we could really be sitting in a great position as far as not only first choice goes but strength in depth. Gilroy is the only change he has made where his hand wasn't forced by injury. And even then you could argue it has been forced because Kearney is out meaning Zebo is at FB now and not wing.

If Kidney just gave the form players a chance in meaningful matches then I think Irish Rugby would be in a great position. Oh, and if we go out with an attacking mindset too like I mentioned above!

[Irishhoneymonster]

Just to say though I would be happy if the one change Kidney made with the team that played today for this Six Nations was to put Marshall in instead of D'arcy. I would see that as a big plus and would be happy. Obviously players coming back from injury will mean more changes but that is the one unforced change I want more at the very least.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Oh yes, and ROG off the bench but guess I was thinking that went without saying

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Notch

He gave away at least 3 penalties. I was at the game but I will watch I again tomorrow, in my eyes pom was poor.

Take off the blinkers pete. This is what you said a few days ago.

I see no comparison physically, if they play 100% and so do we they should win the physical fight

You (and most others) were miles off because you're underrating Irish players. POM was excellent today. The first penalty would have been a great turnover under different ref interpretations. After the ball hit the post POM collected and broke a few tackles to give Sexton a better chance to clear it. This theory about POM not being physical enough is another myth thats doing the rounds. I can only assume that people who think that are not watching Munster regularly. POM was made captain last season and won numerous MOTM awards in big games.

Sorry this is nonsense. POM did not have a good match. That is not to say he had a bad match. I said he did earlier but I was just having a WUM. POM is physical, but he uses it in the wrong way. Being captain for Munster is irrelevant. Wining a few MOTM for Munster is irrelevant. By the way, Henry had been Ulster captain many moons ago before Muller came in. Henry also got a good few MOTM performances last season too. You know what relevance that had on todays match? None. Totally irrelevant. All you have stated is POM has performed for Munster. Good for him. Unless I'm mistaken Ireland were playing today and he was in no shape or form 'excellent'. Ryan was excellent. Healy was excellent. Thats it. A few other players like Murray, Sexton, Gilroy, Henry, Strauss and D'Arcy were good or very good.

POM had an average match. You might be right and say that with a different referee and we would be celebrating three turnovers. Here's the thing, he didn't. He gave away three penalties. After being penalised unfairly for the first one which I thought was an excellent steal, he didn't learn. If we were playing a better team, or even a team that was barely competent on the day that would have cost us.

I also was really disappointed with Keith Earls today. He made a few mistakes, but that happens. His distribution was much improved. i thought he moved the ball rather well and better than any previous match for Ireland. He missed a couple of bad tackles which was poor, but it has to be added that so did Gilroy. Again, against a competent side those mistakes from Earls and Gilroy would be punished. Earls' kick for Bowe's try was excellent too. The reason I was so disappointed was that this was a match where with broken up play he should have been in his element. All he did is shovel the ball to others. In reality Earls is absolutely wasted at 13. The position accenuates his flaws and wastes the strengths his possesses.

Also, check out ESPN stats and compare Bent and Ross. Now, this comes with a health warning that ESPN are notoriously unreliable. However they do show that in the short time that Bent was on the pitch he got through more work than Ross. Ross has really helped Ireland out of a huge scrummaging hole, but he is unconditioned and out of weight and adds nothing to the team around the pitch. If Bent even barely performs for Leinster he must start come the Six Nations.

Plenty of other people will mark the players performances over the next few days, but I think one thing most people could agree on was that Murray had his best game for Ireland.

[Thomond]

As much as I like Marshall and want him involved unless he ousts Paddy from the Ulster team I don't want him to start for Ireland. That goes for pretty much everyone, if they can't start for their province I don't know if they should start for Ireland.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

As much as I like Marshall and want him involved unless he ousts Paddy from the Ulster team I don't want him to start for Ireland. That goes for pretty much everyone, if they can't start for their province I don't know if they should start for Ireland.

I would have tended to agree before today Thomond. I think the selection and performance of Gilroy makes a mockery of that suggestion.

[Irishhoneymonster]

As much as I like Marshall and want him involved unless he ousts Paddy from the Ulster team I don't want him to start for Ireland. That goes for pretty much everyone, if they can't start for their province I don't know if they should start for Ireland.

What about Gilroy then?

[LeinsterFan4life]

As much as I like Marshall and want him involved unless he ousts Paddy from the Ulster team I don't want him to start for Ireland. That goes for pretty much everyone, if they can't start for their province I don't know if they should start for Ireland.

I would have tended to agree before today Thomond. I think the selection and performance of Gilroy makes a mockery of that suggestion.

Gilroy should be ahead of Trimble. He's so much more dangerous.

[rodders]

As much as I like Marshall and want him involved unless he ousts Paddy from the Ulster team I don't want him to start for Ireland. That goes for pretty much everyone, if they can't start for their province I don't know if they should start for Ireland.

I don't think its that simple. Its a squad game. Fergus McFadden, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Michael Bent, Sean Cronin and a few other guys who are getting picked for Ireland wouldn't be guaranteed to start for their provinces either.

If a player is regularly getting in the match day squads, and getting game time, then they should warrant consideration. The needs of the province don't always match those of the national squad and the selection criteria isn't always the same.

Disappointed not to see more of Henderson, Marshall*2, Jackson and something of Madigan this Autumn but all things considered more positives than negatives and its a while since I could say that.

[Thomond]

As much as I like Marshall and want him involved unless he ousts Paddy from the Ulster team I don't want him to start for Ireland. That goes for pretty much everyone, if they can't start for their province I don't know if they should start for Ireland.

I would have tended to agree before today Thomond. I think the selection and performance of Gilroy makes a mockery of that suggestion.

I think Gilroy should be starting ahead of Trimble in all honesty, I see him jumping ahead of him soon, it may have to be reevaluated come 6N time.



Sure if ROG isn't starting for Munster he still deserves to be on the bench for Deccie like. It's not a foolproof system.

[ME-109]

Philip Matthews said POM was excellent, that's good enough for me. Earls did very well and he and Darcy played well together..not sure about some missed tackles being mentioned, but considering he missed none against the Boks I wouldn't be too worried. Hopefully now he gets a run at 13 as he is clearly showing himself to be the class player he undoubtedly is.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Notch

He gave away at least 3 penalties. I was at the game but I will watch I again tomorrow, in my eyes pom was poor.

Take off the blinkers pete. This is what you said a few days ago.

I see no comparison physically, if they play 100% and so do we they should win the physical fight

You (and most others) were miles off because you're underrating Irish players. POM was excellent today. The first penalty would have been a great turnover under different ref interpretations. After the ball hit the post POM collected and broke a few tackles to give Sexton a better chance to clear it. This theory about POM not being physical enough is another myth thats doing the rounds. I can only assume that people who think that are not watching Munster regularly. POM was made captain last season and won numerous MOTM awards in big games.

The problem against SA was Ireland offered no threat with the ball. Ireland had most possession which goes against the pack being smashed theory.

This result also shows up Kidneys failings over the past 2 seasons. Credit to him for getting them to perform like that but too little too late. Having ROG on the bench is another joke decision. Even ROG is admitting that hes past it now.

POM is definately phsyical enough. He doesn't look that big on tv but when you see him in real life, he's huge. I thought he had a good game today.

[rodders]

Gilroy should be ahead of Trimble. He's so much more dangerous.

He is but Trimble has plenty to offer to in terms of his physicality, ball carrying and defensive strengths. He's also scored more tries for Ulster this year than Bowe or Gilroy and has been the form player before the AI's.

Gilroy is the form wing now and looks something special but lets not send Trimble into retirement just yet, hes only 27 and has plenty to offer. He's under big pressure though at Ulster and Ireland. Hopefully the competition will keep all 3 on their toes but Gilroy is just too good to ignore now.

[ME-109]

For some reason Trimble doesn't do it for Ireland and DK has given him plenty of chances

[neilthom7]

Well I think Gilroy got playing because of last week most likely plus he has played some role in every match he was made available for Ulster this season so it isn't like hes not playing

[neilthom7]

Also Anscombe ain't stupid if they play well enough and then they will play but Trimble has been playing well for Ulster so Anscombe sticks with him.

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