Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[rodders]

For some reason Trimble doesn't do it for Ireland and DK has given him plenty of chances

Agreed. He'll have to earn his way back in and bide his time now. Bowe just keeps delivering on the big stage and Gilroy and Zebo have leap frogged him with their pace, youth and flair.

McFadden is a good utility man but if I was playing against a top 5 side I'd rather have Trimble on the wing for his power and defensive ability but I'm sure others will feel different.

Trimbs has slipped down the pecking order in a competitive position but I don't think he should be written off.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Kidney has used Trimble badly for Ireland. His strengths are running on the inside channel and using physicality or lines of running to make hard yards or make a break. If you aren't going to use him in that way then there are better alternatives. And even if you are, then him and Bowe are too similar in many respects. Even with an effective plan that uses them both I think it makes our wing play one dimensional. Maybe if Bowe was injured Trimble might come back into the side, but right now I don't see him replacing Gilroy or Zebo. Heaven knows what will happen if Fitzgerald gets fit and starts playing well.

[ME-109]

Also I have to say as someone who has criticised Sexton today was the first time he played like he plays for leinster. Was very good. I hope he continues in this frame for Ireland and does it consistently

[rodders]

Is Rob Kearney now the elephant in the room...... .....

[ME-109]

Sorry Hook blaming kidney for the way Trimble plays is not good enough. He makes too many mistakes with the basics when he plays for Ireland.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Also I have to say as someone who has criticised Sexton today was the first time he played like he plays for leinster. Was very good. I hope he continues in this frame for Ireland and does it consistently

Jesus. I didn't think he was as amazing as people say he was. It was a 7 out of 10 for me. He did a lot of things really well, but a lot of basic errors at times, and he still persisted in standing far too deep too often. I thought we might bond over this DOD. I even had t-shirts made.

[Rory_Gallagher]

The criticism against POM is pretty unjustified in my opinion. I thought he had a very good game. He was fantastic in the line-outs, made good ground almost every carry he made, beating defenders and setting up a good platform. He was also unlucky on occasions at the breakdown, where he is very effective. I think he could be the next irish 8. He has the attributes to play there, but he might do well to bulk up a little more.

I don't think Earls had a good game however. He was rather weak, and made a few silly mistakes. I just don't think he is cut out to play at 13, I wanted to see him prove me wrong, but he hasn't. How many more chances will he get?

Oh and Gilroy is going to be a star. That is all.

[rodders]

The tactics haven't helped Trimble but for a guy on the fringes he hasn't taken his chances enough.

But lets not make out he has never performed for Ireland..he just hasn't did it enough. He's a confidence player I think, great when on song but can go for spells where he's out of sorts and tries too hard I think.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Also I have to say as someone who has criticised Sexton today was the first time he played like he plays for leinster. Was very good. I hope he continues in this frame for Ireland and does it consistently

So will you stop saying that our players aren't good enough now? That was a fantastic performance in the first half. The best attacking performance by Ireland under Kidney. When you think that was without BOD, Kearney, SOB,Ferris and POC. We do have the players!

[Artful_Dodger]

Earls put in a good dink for one of Bowe's trys but aside from that he didnt have a great game, and his distribution on a couple of occasions made it evident that hes not a 13.

[ME-109]

Ok I will qualify that..by very good Sexton actually controlled the game and varied his game as well. In other words he did his job something he hasn't done before enough. 7/10 is about right

[rodders]

I thought O'Mahoney was ok actually but Earls hasn't convinced me at all....sorry DOD .

[rodders]

Earls put in a good dink for one of Bowe's trys but aside from that he didnt have a great game, and his distribution on a couple of occasions made it evident that hes not a 13.

Yup that's fits my assessment too.

[Rory_Gallagher]

If you watch the little grubber kick Earls made, I don't think he meant it at all. Immediately after kicking it he looked straight ahead of him, before realising it went towards his right. Nobody else notice?

[Thomond]

Seems to hit it with the outside of his foot, around 2:30 here. I think he meant it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ld-4rZg9HI

[rodders]

If you watch the little grubber kick Earls made, I don't think he meant it at all. Immediately after kicking it he looked straight ahead of him, before realising it went towards his right. Nobody else notice?

Maybe but I'm not sure ibrahimovic meant that overhead bicycle kick either so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there...

[Rory_Gallagher]

Seems to hit it with the outside of his foot, around 2:30 here. I think he meant it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ld-4rZg9HI

You could see him immediately look straight ahead before realising he kicked it on the outside and readjusts his line. It worked though!

[Cari]

Are Tommy's tries on Boob Tube too?

[rodders]

Tommy who?

[ME-109]

Clearly earls didn't kick the ball..oh well that's that then...-100

[rodders]

I'm not sure ROG meant that kick off straight to the Argentinian either but hey a rugby ball is a funny thing.......

[Artful_Dodger]

O'Gara was going for a chip over the opposition line which he has now tried on several occasions in at least the last five games he's played ........... I don't think one has come off yet.

[neilthom7]

O'Gara was going for a chip over the opposition line which he has now tried on several occasions in at least the last five games he's played ........... I don't think one has come off yet.

That's why he's still doing it ROG is persistent he wont give up till he makes one.

[profitius]

Notch

He gave away at least 3 penalties. I was at the game but I will watch I again tomorrow, in my eyes pom was poor.

Take off the blinkers pete. This is what you said a few days ago.

I see no comparison physically, if they play 100% and so do we they should win the physical fight

You (and most others) were miles off because you're underrating Irish players. POM was excellent today. The first penalty would have been a great turnover under different ref interpretations. After the ball hit the post POM collected and broke a few tackles to give Sexton a better chance to clear it. This theory about POM not being physical enough is another myth thats doing the rounds. I can only assume that people who think that are not watching Munster regularly. POM was made captain last season and won numerous MOTM awards in big games.

Sorry this is nonsense. POM did not have a good match. That is not to say he had a bad match. I said he did earlier but I was just having a WUM. POM is physical, but he uses it in the wrong way. Being captain for Munster is irrelevant. Wining a few MOTM for Munster is irrelevant. By the way, Henry had been Ulster captain many moons ago before Muller came in. Henry also got a good few MOTM performances last season too. You know what relevance that had on todays match? None. Totally irrelevant. All you have stated is POM has performed for Munster. Good for him. Unless I'm mistaken Ireland were playing today and he was in no shape or form 'excellent'. Ryan was excellent. Healy was excellent. Thats it. A few other players like Murray, Sexton, Gilroy, Henry, Strauss and D'Arcy were good or very good.

POM had an average match. You might be right and say that with a different referee and we would be celebrating three turnovers. Here's the thing, he didn't. He gave away three penalties. After being penalised unfairly for the first one which I thought was an excellent steal, he didn't learn. If we were playing a better team, or even a team that was barely competent on the day that would have cost us.

And what if another ref was reffing and he wasn't penalised but got the turnovers? Would he have been excellent then? Do you see things in black and white?

You think Munster would make an average player captain in his first full season? Its very relevant. You think he would be winning MOTM awards playing in the backrow in the HEC if he wasn't a good player? Once again it is relevant.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

And what if another ref was reffing and he wasn't penalised but got the turnovers? Would he have been excellent then? Do you see things in black and white?

You think Munster would make an average player captain in his first full season? Its very relevant. You think he would be winning MOTM awards playing in the backrow in the HEC if he wasn't a good player? Once again it is relevant.

What has any of that got to do with his performance today and how it should be analysed? What you are stating speaks to his selection. None of it has anything to do with his performance.

In short to your other statement, yes. Maybe he would have three turnovers in his column rather than three penalties. He was penalised and they weren't penalties. What if Stephen Jones had slotted over than penalty against us and stopped the Grand Slam. Would you turn round and say to Paddy Wallace, 'chin up son. At least you got in position to try for turnover. On another day you would have got the decision'. Nonsense. POM knew the ref was extremely quick on the whistle, maybe unfairly so. He didn't alter his game. That speaks to immaturity and a lack of clear thinking in the match.

[theslosty]

A lot of guys stood up today but I thought Ryan, POM and Gilroy were particularly excellent. Just a little bit worried if this is going to buy Kidney extra time, he better not get a new contract before the 6N...
Anyway, will be interesting to see if the fresh blood can stay in this team. I mean I Gilroy and Zebo have been fantastic and really deserve to start but Earls in my eyes is still a quality winger and Kearney is actually quite good.
Team I'd like to see for 6N:
Healy
Strauss or Best
Ross (haven't seen much of Bent apologies)
Ryan
POC
Ferris
O'Brien
Heaslip
Murray (but P Marshall deserves a shot)
Sexton
Earls/Zebo/Gilroy - to be fair let's not overhype Gilroy after a good first twenty minutes - he needs to start for Ulster
Fitzgerald/Marshall
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

[ME-109]

Yes Hook POM was very poor..even if possibly the best blindside flanker for Ireland says otherwise. Pom was the pick if the backrow today. That is all

[KiaRose]

I would really like to see BOD and POC go!! And D'Arcy (although to be fair D'Arcy has played very well in the AIs)

Just retire, fade into the sunset of two great careers.

POC has said he won't make the Lions tour next year. I think that is what BOD was hanging on for - he has always said the blemish on his career is that he has never been on a winning Lions tour ...

[rodders]

Earls/Zebo/Gilroy - to be fair let's not overhype Gilroy after a good first twenty minutes - he needs to start for Ulster

A good first 20 minutes? He's scored 4 tries in two games and won 2 back to back motm awards! Tough crowd.....

[dublin_dave]

just watching the re run on Setanta and confirmed a lot of what i thought from watching it earlier

Overall a really good performance by the team. They were bunched but you can only beat whats in front of you. From the getgo we set about giving a tired Argentinian pack the runaround and we did it very well. We really went for the juglar in the first half and played with a ruthlessness we do not see too often when we are on top. No closing off the game here. Kidneys Ireland sometimes are obsessed with closing off the game codeword for ceasing to attack. We simply battered them

Save the third test v NZ there has never been a lack of commitment or spirit from the Irish team just a lack of direction and strategy. Today like all good performances under Kidney we had it in abundance and a bit more in attack. The reaction to Gilroys try said it all about the spirit in the camp

Murray and Sexton as a partnership delivered for the first time. Murray was massively improved fair play to him. Sexton is class and showed it today stood so much flatter. Gilroy was electric, the Irish Vincent Clerc. Darcy, Bowe, Zebo all did well. Earls was not great but there you go.

Watching earlier i thought Heaslip and OMahony were not great but watching re run they were everywhere. OMahony would start a row in an empty room and is still a bit raw but his commitment is infectious. Heaslip was everywhere particularly in defense. Ryan had a huge game after a slow start to the season.

Anyway if i was the IRFU i would be saying to Deccie - Want another 4 years? at least 2nd in the six nations please. Last chance saloon. We have the raw materials to do it and if we play with similar levels of creativity and pace on a more consistent basis the future should be bright

A good end to a poor year. Roll on the 6 nations

[rodders]

POC has said he won't make the Lions tour next year. I think that is what BOD was hanging on for - he has always said the blemish on his career is that he has never been on a winning Lions tour ...

He has? Well judging by the AIs I'd say both, especially POC, are well in with a shout of captaining a second tour. POC is contracted for another season isn't he?

[dublin_dave]

the setanta commentator is comically posh as an aside. Anybody know who he is

Might be the fella from the Aviva ad.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Yes Hook POM was very poor..even if possibly the best blindside flanker for Ireland says otherwise. Pom was the pick if the backrow today. That is all

I didn't say he was poor. I disagreed that he was 'excellent'. By the way Henry carried the ball for more yards, made more tackles, effected the same amount of turnovers and gave away fewer penalties. The only thing he doesn't have for your column of stats is that POM has 100% in the Munster column and Henry zero. Those pesky facts- they always get in the way.

[ME-109]

I never said anything about Henry, who was adequate. Here are some more stats you might like, pom won a number of lineouts, apparently beat a defender or two, made good ground when he carried etc etc...stats are quite amazing things like Henry received the ball from kick off at least twice, could be where the extra came from, a massive two metres more.

As was said he and heaslip were everywhere and an eminent Ulsterman like P Matthews singled him out...that is all

[rodders]

Wasn't impressed with Heaslip actually, as a player or captain.

POM and Henry seemed to do a lot more. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.....

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

I never said anything about Henry, who was adequate. Here are some more stats you might like, pom won a number of lineouts, apparently beat a defender or two, made good ground when he carried etc etc...stats are quite amazing things like Henry received the ball from kick off at least twice, could be where the extra came from, a massive two metres more.

As was said he and heaslip were everywhere and an eminent Ulsterman like P Matthews singled him out...that is all

He was 'everywhere' yet managed to be less influential than Henry. Maybe he was doing all that 'unseen work' again. That must be it. It's unseen so you can't see it. But sure, at least he has a wobblier head that David Gray, shaking it at all the mistakes he made. He needs to be careful, he'll get a neck strain doing that. That actually explains him trying to start a fight with an Argentinian. 'If you want it, come and get it. Crying out loud!'
Henry also held up more men in the tackle to effect Irish turnovers in the scrum, but ESPN don't count that. Awk but sure, he was only adequate. If only his name was O'Henry from Cork or Limerick. Then you'd like him. But sure, you follow what one person said on commentary. At least it means you don't have to think independently for yourself. That would be such a stretch on your poor ickle brain and we wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.

[SecretFly]

Seven tries, easy win (sloppy end ok) and still we fight?

Perspective please, gentlemen

[ME-109]

Yawn...its late and you are talking rubbish Hook and not for the first time. I told you that knock on the head playing AIL has done more damage than you thought.

POM was much more influential all over the park...

Feel free to put me on ignore...please

[Notch]

Kidney has used Trimble badly for Ireland. His strengths are running on the inside channel and using physicality or lines of running to make hard yards or make a break. If you aren't going to use him in that way then there are better alternatives. And even if you are, then him and Bowe are too similar in many respects. Even with an effective plan that uses them both I think it makes our wing play one dimensional. Maybe if Bowe was injured Trimble might come back into the side, but right now I don't see him replacing Gilroy or Zebo. Heaven knows what will happen if Fitzgerald gets fit and starts playing well.

This is true, but Gilroy ran a lot of good, positive inside lines today- the lines Trimble hasn't been running. Bit inexplicable really, Trimbles form, bit enigmatic. In the RWC warm-ups he made (at least he should have made) the shirt his own by running those hard lines and getting through a ton of work in midfield and chasing everything. In 2012, that completely dropped off for Ireland. Change in backs coach probably had an influence but he is hanging out wide and it's just not his game.

Whats doubly frustrating is he's still doing all those things so well for Ulster, well enough to keep Gilroy out of the team initially.

[rodders]

I don't like the way Henry pulls rank at those restarts.That's the orange man coming to the fore. I wouldn't blame O'Mahoney for stealing his wallet from the changing room at all.

[Notch]

I never said anything about Henry, who was adequate. Here are some more stats you might like, pom won a number of lineouts, apparently beat a defender or two, made good ground when he carried etc etc...stats are quite amazing things like Henry received the ball from kick off at least twice, could be where the extra came from, a massive two metres more.

As was said he and heaslip were everywhere and an eminent Ulsterman like P Matthews singled him out...that is all

He was 'everywhere' yet managed to be less influential than Henry. Maybe he was doing all that 'unseen work' again. That must be it. It's unseen so you can't see it. But sure, at least he has a wobblier head that David Gray, shaking it at all the mistakes he made. He needs to be careful, he'll get a neck strain doing that. That actually explains him trying to start a fight with an Argentinian. 'If you want it, come and get it. Crying out loud!'
Henry also held up more men in the tackle to effect Irish turnovers in the scrum, but ESPN don't count that. Awk but sure, he was only adequate. If only his name was O'Henry from Cork or Limerick. Then you'd like him. But sure, you follow what one person said on commentary. At least it means you don't have to think independently for yourself. That would be such a stretch on your poor ickle brain and we wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.

So good.

[Notch]

I don't like the way Henry pulls rank at those restarts.That's the orange man coming to the fore. I wouldn't blame O'Mahoney for stealing his wallet from the changing room at all.

Lads, stop it, I don't want to seem like I'm on your side but at least your WUMs have some humour behind them!

[rodders]

It was a good day lads, have a and go to bed...they'll be plenty of time for whinging ahead....

[neilthom7]

It was a good day lads, have a and go to bed...they'll be plenty of time for whinging ahead....

i just dream of a day when an ulsterman and a munsterman can have a pint and be friends, we can make this happen rodders

[Biltong]

Congratulations to Ireland, great win.

[MrsP]

Just heard a wee post match interview with Zebo.

They asked about his move to FB and what he thought about it and he said he would turn out in the front row if he was asked!

That's the kind of thing you want to hear!



You know those young lads have a lot to teach!

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Notch

He gave away at least 3 penalties. I was at the game but I will watch I again tomorrow, in my eyes pom was poor.

Take off the blinkers pete. This is what you said a few days ago.

I see no comparison physically, if they play 100% and so do we they should win the physical fight

You (and most others) were miles off because you're underrating Irish players. POM was excellent today. The first penalty would have been a great turnover under different ref interpretations. After the ball hit the post POM collected and broke a few tackles to give Sexton a better chance to clear it. This theory about POM not being physical enough is another myth thats doing the rounds. I can only assume that people who think that are not watching Munster regularly. POM was made captain last season and won numerous MOTM awards in big games.

Sorry this is nonsense. POM did not have a good match. That is not to say he had a bad match. I said he did earlier but I was just having a WUM. POM is physical, but he uses it in the wrong way. Being captain for Munster is irrelevant. Wining a few MOTM for Munster is irrelevant. By the way, Henry had been Ulster captain many moons ago before Muller came in. Henry also got a good few MOTM performances last season too. You know what relevance that had on todays match? None. Totally irrelevant. All you have stated is POM has performed for Munster. Good for him. Unless I'm mistaken Ireland were playing today and he was in no shape or form 'excellent'. Ryan was excellent. Healy was excellent. Thats it. A few other players like Murray, Sexton, Gilroy, Henry, Strauss and D'Arcy were good or very good.

POM had an average match. You might be right and say that with a different referee and we would be celebrating three turnovers. Here's the thing, he didn't. He gave away three penalties. After being penalised unfairly for the first one which I thought was an excellent steal, he didn't learn. If we were playing a better team, or even a team that was barely competent on the day that would have cost us.

I also was really disappointed with Keith Earls today. He made a few mistakes, but that happens. His distribution was much improved. i thought he moved the ball rather well and better than any previous match for Ireland. He missed a couple of bad tackles which was poor, but it has to be added that so did Gilroy. Again, against a competent side those mistakes from Earls and Gilroy would be punished. Earls' kick for Bowe's try was excellent too. The reason I was so disappointed was that this was a match where with broken up play he should have been in his element. All he did is shovel the ball to others. In reality Earls is absolutely wasted at 13. The position accenuates his flaws and wastes the strengths his possesses.

Also, check out ESPN stats and compare Bent and Ross. Now, this comes with a health warning that ESPN are notoriously unreliable. However they do show that in the short time that Bent was on the pitch he got through more work than Ross. Ross has really helped Ireland out of a huge scrummaging hole, but he is unconditioned and out of weight and adds nothing to the team around the pitch. If Bent even barely performs for Leinster he must start come the Six Nations.

Plenty of other people will mark the players performances over the next few days, but I think one thing most people could agree on was that Murray had his best game for Ireland.

Profitus

Nothing about blinkers man I really am not a Murray fan but have already said if he can play like that every week the jersey should be his. Better decision making, much more accurate passing, quicker service, great stuff sunshine, best game he has had in a while.
I haven't watched the game back I just didn't think pom was that good if im honest. When I think of physicality in that game I think of Ryan, McCarthy and Healy not pom. Penalties were obviously a minus, not sure how many turnovers he won (ref may have influenced that)

Also in the quote above: you can't tell me Argintina were playing at 100% or anything even close to it.

Earls I thought was an improvement too as in attack he challenged the gainline with straighter running and switches. He and Darcy did crab a bit too and he threw 2 howlers, his defence was 'ok'. Great little kick through.

Overall very positive. I'm glad argentina didn't turn up though if they had the way they did against Wales we could have been in trouble

[Pal Joey]

Nice summary Mrs P.

I'll go with what she says.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Also I have to say as someone who has criticised Sexton today was the first time he played like he plays for leinster. Was very good. I hope he continues in this frame for Ireland and does it consistently

I'd say the same about Murray, I think he has been a god awful scrumhalf the last 8 months or so but he really, really delivered yesterday. His accuracy was transformed and service speed much better.

Keep it up conor

[Rory_Gallagher]

Murray and Hanrahan will be an exciting half back partnership in the future for Munster, possibly bringing out the best in both players.

Otherwise, Marmion is the 9 to watch for the near future.

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