Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

im hoping so

[Golden]

Jeez Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy maybe Earls a lot of back three players from the one country. Considering the 6 nations will be the main showcase between now and then and they cant all start I cant see them all going. Be great if they did though

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah doesn't make much sense really does it. Someone is really going to lose out. Wonder will Kearney walk back in to the 15 jersey for Ireland or if he will find it tricky

[neilthom7]

Zebo did well but he is no Kearney at Fullback when Rob is at his best. Kearney is still our best FB. Going to be one hell of a battle for the wing spots when he is fit and firing. Gilroy, Earls, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Trimble and Zebo ain't bad options for 2 spots lol.

[clivemcl]

A bit of craic posted by Gilroy of him and Jackson! He mimes well I have to say!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151238469539719

[valjester]

Zebo did well but he is no Kearney at Fullback when Rob is at his best. Kearney is still our best FB. Going to be one hell of a battle for the wing spots when he is fit and firing. Gilroy, Earls, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Trimble and Zebo ain't bad options for 2 spots lol.

Kearney will walk straight back into the team and rightly so, he is the second best full back in the world. The wing spots could be decided based on what happens for Munster and Ulster. If Gilroy is still behind Trimble for Ulster, then I think Kidney will go for either Zebo or Earls, depending on whether Earls stays at 13 or reverts to the wing. Jones being back fit at Munster will be interesting for selections as well. I think it is fairly clear at this stage that, for whatever reason, Kidney doesn't rate Trimble too highly.

Only getting around to watching the game now, Gilroy is lucky he didn't get injured after the first try, Sexton decked him.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah was some hit. I'd hope that zebo plays 15 for munster I think he looked really good there. Gilroy must be very very close to leaping Trimble if Jensen already

[Sin é]

Yeah was some hit. I'd hope that zebo plays 15 for munster I think he looked really good there. Gilroy must be very very close to leaping Trimble if Jensen already

Munster have 2 good fullbacks - Jones is looking good again and we have Hurley as well. Good Ireland has someback-up for Kearney now.

[rapidsnowman]

Great game on Saturday.

The general conclusion regarding the Fiji game was that it didn't serve much purpose and we didn't learn anything from it. However, I wonder if it was instrumental in reviving a 'feel good' facter in the camp, that was very evident on Saturday.

There seemed to be a real togetherness in the squad. Gilroy got hit harder as he tried to get up after scoring his try than he did by the Argies!

I like the cut of Zebo's jib! Seems to be making a seamless transition to international level even if he is not in his normal position.

Not getting too carried away with Gilroy. He has done everything required of him (and more perhaps) so far, but he hasn't been put under pressure in either game the way the French or other tougher nations can. Time will tell, but a great start.

[rodders]

Not getting too carried away with Gilroy. He has done everything required of him (and more perhaps) so far, but he hasn't been put under pressure in either game the way the French or other tougher nations can. Time will tell, but a great start.

So the minimum expected requirement of a young Irish 3/4 is 4 tries and two motm awards in 2 games?

Sorry but I'm sick of this Irish, too good to be true he must have a weakness somewhere attitude.... not sure if its Gilroys silly haircut that is the problem but I really struggle to remember an Irish back who could beat defenders the way Gilroy can, with such an impressive strike rate and who has made such an impact at such a young age....oh yeah well I can think of one anyways....

Notice Gilroy was on the shoulder of Bowe and Sexton for their tries so his off the ball work is excellent too. How many other Irish backs fail to support when breaks are made?

He saw off Simon Danielli, who was still 1st choice for Scotland, two seasons ago and will no doubt see off Trimble/Bowe or AN other to start for Ulster this year too. He is simply too good to ignore for Ulster and Ireland right now.

I'd say he's a real bolter for the Lions too.

[Mickado]

To be fair Rodders, teams will do their homework on him and I don’t think he’ll get the space in the 6nations that he got at the weekend, but that’s all good, if they’re concentrating on him then they’ll be leaving space for others.

I can't fault him for his displays in this series though, he had the best test debut i can remember from any player.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Yeah was some hit. I'd hope that zebo plays 15 for munster I think he looked really good there. Gilroy must be very very close to leaping Trimble if Jensen already

He probably won't ever play 15 again but he has the skills for it,if Jones can't stay fit and O'Dea comes back and keeps playing like he was before he got injured then Zebo might end up there.

[SecretFly]

Could we leave our passports at the door please (and chat/allusions to them). Thanks

[rodders]

They will Mick but he hasn't fallen out of the sky...he's been tearing up defences for Ulster for the past 3 seasons.

Gilroy has pace, power and can step off both feet (which is very rare) and is a natural try scorer. Teams will identify him as a threat but when a player has genuine pace there is only so much analysis can do...the only way to stop someone like Gilroy causing problems is by preventing him from getting the ball.

Teams couldn't stop D'arcy and O'Driscoll for years because of their pace and acceleration.

Gilroy and Zebo bring that unpredictability back into the Irish back line and create space for the likes of Sexton and Bowe to exploit.

They can do for us what Shane Williams and Jason Robinson did for Wales and England respectively.

[rodders]

Could we leave our passports at the door please (and chat/allusions to them). Thanks

Fair cop fly .....can we make allusions to haircuts?.....

[SecretFly]

Look - just live with it guys - we're heading for world domination...............................................

...What? It's true.

[rodders]

Look - just live with it guys - we're heading for world domination...............................................

...What? It's true.

Well I was kinda just hoping to win another triple crown fly

...but then beating Wales and England is the next best thing to World domination anyways......

[SecretFly]

haircuts is allowed.

Ulster modernist, urban haircuts - with 89 degree spike v Munster cattle farmer mop with fringe v Connacht unruly mop of curls and mad-men beards v carefully coiffured'n'combed with 85 degree spike and twist Leinster creations.

That's all allowed

[rodders]

Right if we're all agreed that Gilroy is the new Simon Geohegan can we more on.....

Anyone else delighted with Strauss, Bent, Henry and McCarthy..not to mention Henderson?..... looks like we are building real depth in the pack now and aren't as reliant on a couple of key players.

Thats probably the biggest plus from the Autumn for me.

When you look at the guys to come back in - POC, Ferris, Best, SOB - and the likes of Court, McLaughlin, Jennings, Touhy etc. in the fringes then there's a lot to be positive about there.

[rapidsnowman]

Oops sorry Rodders!

I think I did say he has done more than has been expected of him, but it has been in 2 games where his team were easily on top. He still has to become first choice for Ulster.

He may be better than Geohegan, i don't thnik Geoghan had a pirouet in his armoury!

[rodders]

No one is better than Geoghegan!! ....

Sorry snowman..I'm always grumpy on a Monday....

[rapidsnowman]

Starting to feel a bit sorry for Trimble actually!

Bowe comes back - virtually undroppable, on many fans Lions XV.

Gilroy tearing teams apart - clamour growing for him to start for Ulster and Ireland.

What now for Andy?

[rodders]

Andy just has to keep performing...not sure whether not you have been watching Ulster but Trimble has been one of the form players over the past 4-5 games and has a couple of MOTM performances in the bag.

He's scored more tries than Bowe or Gilroy and seems to link very well with Payne.

The back 3 is very competitive at Ulster right now, I don't think anyone can feel assured of their place in the backline which is a great thing.

[tecphobe]

I would like the team that started against Argentina to start the 6 nations. There should be no more walking back into your starting place this proves we have depth. Gilroy looks the real deal. Our backrow now looks balanced. Imagine Ireland having the ability to to spring Kearney O'Brien Ferris POC BOD from the Bench that would worry a few teams

[MrsP]

Is it really an issue which of our 3 international wingers starts?

Surely the days of having some guy who can step in if one of your wings gets hurt are long gone for Ulster and any team with ambitions for World Domination?

We need one of those guys on the bench so we can change games on our terms not just as injury cover. And we need to stop assuming that the guy on the bench is less talented/highly though of/important than the starters.

That has been the difference for Ulster this year. Not the strength of the starting XV but the talent from 16-23.

[SecretFly]

The greatest - I repeat the greatest - mistake that could now be made is to make a new untouchable select 15 - with their numbers branded onto their backs. This is becoming a more ideal scenario for Ireland than has existed in quite some time - if now managed correctly.

We've all said it that predictability becomes predictable and that the predictables become complacent. The whole idea from the very outset, what we were shouting about for months if not years now, was that a real squad should be developed and we insisted that it meant that Kidney should actually choose some of the fringe players instead of talking about them.

Probably mostly out of need now, he's giving the fringe guys more 'real' time. And this is only becoming an ideal situation - the ideal situation is not that the young ones are now getting a chance of being picked.

The ideal situation is that now there will be a growth of 'real' competition within the squad. The complacency must go for some of the guys who felt they'd never lose out. Now they know they will because Kidney (for whatever reasons) has trusted to youthful enthusiasm and sees that it has its advantages.

I don't see any reason why the emergence of the one true King - Gilroy - should sound the alarms for Trimble. I'm not saying Trimble will be back but I'm certainly saying he knows what it will take for him to get back. He knows that normal service will not now be good enough when and if he gets an opportunity in 6N. That can only be good for Ireland if he accepts that challenge in the right way.

And I'm only using those two as an example - other regulars should be feeling the same renewal of International level honesty. Real squads produce real competition, real edge. If we just lazily adopt a new 'great' 15 and never want them messed with for fear of losing, then we'll be going nowhere and Kidney won't be all to blame.

[tecphobe]

The greatest - I repeat the greatest - mistake that could now be made is to make a new untouchable select 15 - with their numbers branded onto their backs. This is becoming a more ideal scenario for Ireland than has existed in quite some time - if now managed correctly.

We've all said it that predictability becomes predictable and that the predictables become complacent. The whole idea from the very outset, what we were shouting about for months if not years now, was that a real squad should be developed and we insisted that it meant that Kidney should actually choose some of the fringe players instead of talking about them.

Probably mostly out of need now, he's giving the fringe guys more 'real' time. And this is only becoming an ideal situation - the ideal situation is not that the young ones are now getting a chance of being picked.

The ideal situation is that now there will be a growth of 'real' competition within the squad. The complacency must go for some of the guys who felt they'd never lose out. Now they know they will because Kidney (for whatever reasons) has trusted to youthful enthusiasm and sees that it has its advantages.

I don't see any reason why the emergence of the one true King - Gilroy - should sound the alarms for Trimble. I'm not saying Trimble will be back but I'm certainly saying he knows what it will take for him to get back. He knows that normal service will not now be good enough when and if he gets an opportunity in 6N. That can only be good for Ireland if he accepts that challenge in the right way.

And I'm only using those two as an example - other regulars should be feeling the same renewal of International level honesty. Real squads produce real competition, real edge. If we just lazily adopt a new 'great' 15 and never want them messed with for fear of losing, then we'll be going nowhere and Kidney won't be all to blame.

+100 Couldnt agree more

[rodders]

Totally agree fly. Gilroy is the best thing to happen Trimble or even Bowe... he's raised the bar already in two games and those guys know it.

Same with Marshall and Jackson on Sexton and D'arcy respectively. Its no coincidence they played so well on Saturday. Bent the same for Ross and Touhy will have to take up the gauntlet thrown by McCarthy .... Rory Best likewise from Strauss.

Having a top team means quality players can't make the side but the key thing is that the coaches are not afraid to make changes when players aren't delivering.

There is no point having depth if you don't utilise it and players need pressure for their place to keep performing.

[GunsGerms]

We could actually have a very strong squad for the 6n if all our players are available. Fingers crossed.

Hopefully by then ROG will have be eased out the door and PJ or IM are on the bench.

[tecphobe]

imagine ferris henderson obrien and bod coming on to run at tired defences

[clivemcl]

I just want to make sure everyone has seen this!

It will brighten up your Monday. I can't believe he keeps it going right till the end!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMTNV9avpwE&feature=youtube_gdata

[Mickado]

That's actually a little bit weird. Too much eye contact

[Sin é]

We could actually have a very strong squad for the 6n if all our players are available. Fingers crossed.

Hopefully by then ROG will have be eased out the door and PJ or IM are on the bench.

Be careful for what you wish for (though it probably won't affect Leinster as much as Ulster).

[Warthog]

We could actually have a very strong squad for the 6n if all our players are available. Fingers crossed.

Hopefully by then ROG will have be eased out the door and PJ or IM are on the bench.

Be careful for what you wish for (though it probably won't affect Leinster as much as Ulster).

Loved ROGs cameo. Come on and chips the ball straight into Argie's hands for the 2nd soft try.

Soft caps, soft tries. I'd say we've seen the end of ROG in an Ireland shirt. Famous last words, I guess.

[Warthog]

And I loved Earls kick through for Bowes 2nd try.

Did he chip because he was being forced to pass left to right once again? I think so. Pretty basic pre requisite for a centre....

[clivemcl]

And I loved Earls kick through for Bowes 2nd try.

Did he chip because he was being forced to pass left to right once again? I think so. Pretty basic pre requisite for a centre....

Does anyone else think Earls actually mis-kicked and that he was actually meaning a chip and gather himself?

[rodders]

Pete brought it up before Clive.

I don't know...nor care to be honest.... it was one of the better things Earls did this Autumn....

[Sin é]

We could actually have a very strong squad for the 6n if all our players are available. Fingers crossed.

Hopefully by then ROG will have be eased out the door and PJ or IM are on the bench.

Be careful for what you wish for (though it probably won't affect Leinster as much as Ulster).

Loved ROGs cameo. Come on and chips the ball straight into Argie's hands for the 2nd soft try.

Soft caps, soft tries. I'd say we've seen the end of ROG in an Ireland shirt. Famous last words, I guess.

At least he didn't kick it straight out for the first kick-off as Sexton did. Luckily for Sexton he had 70 minutes to rectify his mistakes.

By the way, didn't Ireland score a try before the chip which you seem to have left out of your little gloat.

[KiaRose]

I would like the team that started against Argentina to start the 6 nations. There should be no more walking back into your starting place this proves we have depth. Gilroy looks the real deal. Our backrow now looks balanced. Imagine Ireland having the ability to to spring Kearney O'Brien Ferris POC BOD from the Bench that would worry a few teams

In the Times today their rugby correspondent Mark Souster gives his Lions team in his "Lions Watch column". You say, Tec, that no one should be able to "walk back into their starting place" and I would agree, but Souster includes both Kearney and Ferris in his Lions line-up based on the weekend's matches

[SecretFly]

The Times and rugby always have been an often bizarre mix of reasoning verses reality.

[tecphobe]

I would like the team that started against Argentina to start the 6 nations. There should be no more walking back into your starting place this proves we have depth. Gilroy looks the real deal. Our backrow now looks balanced. Imagine Ireland having the ability to to spring Kearney O'Brien Ferris POC BOD from the Bench that would worry a few teams

In the Times today their rugby correspondent Mark Souster gives his Lions team in his "Lions Watch column". You say, Tec, that no one should be able to "walk back into their starting place" and I would agree, but Souster includes both Kearney and Ferris in his Lions line-up based on the weekend's matches

Lazy Journalism he probably thought they were playing lol.

[GunsGerms]

At least he didn't kick it straight out for the first kick-off as Sexton did. Luckily for Sexton he had 70 minutes to rectify his mistakes.

Didnt think Sexton had a great day in some ways. His goal kicking was poor enough, the kick out on the full was terrible as was some of his line kicking in particular one for a penalty which slid right off his boot.

All that said though he is still better than ROG and there is still no reason why, other than Kidney taught him in school, he would want to continue to pick ROG for the bench and throw him a charity 10 minutes every match. Its getting ridiculous now.

[Sin é]

He'd be doing Paddy Jackson no favours either by giving him 13 minutes between 2 games (SA & Argentina).

I thought Sexton did well - just glad that he got over his first error and his poorish kicking didn't affect his confidence and played well otherwise.

[rodders]

He'd be doing Paddy Jackson no favours either by giving him 13 minutes between 2 games (SA & Argentina).

As opposed to zero minutes between 2 games?

[clivemcl]

He'd be doing Paddy Jackson no favours either by giving him 13 minutes between 2 games (SA & Argentina).

As opposed to zero minutes between 2 games?

Yes Rodders, its common knowledge that playing less than 15 minutes of rugby in one sitting is detrimental to your eventual ability! Dont be silly!

[Kingshu]

I wonder what will happen come 6 nations time if Ferris and SOB are fit.

Kidney said after the game that he was impressed with Henry, but if Ferris and SOB are fit will they go back to 6 and 7, or will just one of them be at 6 and the other on bench? means Henderson drops to wolfhounds?

Is it better to have a top 6 play 7, or a good 7 (as Henry is now) play 7?

Wings, Bowe Trimble Gilroy, Zebo, Earls and would Fizgerald be back? all pushing for two spots.

some tough decisions to be made, even center at 12 is Marshall plays well could become a talking point

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Most of the Welsh squad have only played 2 minutes of actual rugby during the AIs

[Mickado]

Giving any player 13 mins over two games is totally pointless.

Particularly ROG who doesn’t need the exposure at this level and seems increasingly incapable of having a positive effect on the game.

What could and probably should have been done would be to give Jackson 15/20 mins in each game (take Sexton off, don’t move him to 12) to give him a taste of test rugby.

[tecphobe]

Paddy will I suspect get game time in the 6 Nations. We have a serious talent pool developing if i had a few million euro going spare id use it to develop Connaught Rugby then we would have 4 provinces competing at the top level. The Munster-Leinster-Ulster Bickering shows that we have real competition for Irish supremacy. hoepfully the young fella's wont have the 'French issue'

[GunsGerms]

I wonder what will happen come 6 nations time if Ferris and SOB are fit.

Kidney said after the game that he was impressed with Henry, but if Ferris and SOB are fit will they go back to 6 and 7, or will just one of them be at 6 and the other on bench? means Henderson drops to wolfhounds?

Is it better to have a top 6 play 7, or a good 7 (as Henry is now) play 7?

Dont know, ask Shane Jennings.

[Sponsored content]