Saints v Ulster Friday HEC 7th December

First topic message reminder :

So the big double header kicks off at Franklin's Gardens on Friday evening. Both teams will believe a win is possible but who will prevail?

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe says Ulster will need to improve on the current form. I would agree, though the disruption of Autumn Internationals wouldn't have helped.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19701.php#.ULyVo-RWySo

Interesting interview with Pat Lam (Former Saints captain) who actually thinks these sides could face each other in the Final next May.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv?play=media&id=13581

Ulster XV & replacements to face Northampton Saints, Heineken Cup, Friday 7th December, Franklin's Gardens (8.00pm):
(15-9): J Payne; T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble; P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c), D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Brady, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, N Williams, P Marshall, L Marshall, C Gilroy.

Northampton XV.

(15-9): B Foden; K Pisi, G Pisi, D Waldouck, J Elliott; R Lamb, M Roberts;

(1-8): S Tonga'uiha, D Hartley (c), B Mujati, S Manoa, C Lawes, C Clark, T Wood, G van Velze;

Replacements (16-23): M Haywood, A Waller, P Doran-Jones, M Sorenson, P Dowson, L Dickson, S Myler, T May.

MrsP wrote:Believe me Neil, it's nowhere near your house!

oh thats good i can rest easy............................................................................................
wait.............................................................
howd you know where u live? ....................................................

MrsP wrote:Maybe I should explain that DrG is the operator not the victim....I mean patient in this hypothetical hip replacement to which I referred.

Ach but my material is brilliant.

neilthom7 wrote:

MrsP wrote:Believe me Neil, it's nowhere near your house!

oh thats good i can rest easy............................................................................................
wait.............................................................
howd you know where u live? ....................................................

It's pretty easy as I go here everyday.

If was ever to forget I could just look outside.

Do you find it tricky to know where you live?

neilthom7 wrote:

MrsP wrote:Believe me Neil, it's nowhere near your house!

oh thats good i can rest easy............................................................................................
wait.............................................................
howd you know where u live? ....................................................

Neil I'd be worried. Mrs P once guessed the name of the girl I'd been out with the night before with limited information. I'm 70% certain witchcraft or black magic was involved.

Honestly. You guys!

It's amazing what you can do with a little bit of skill at hacking especially now that almost everyone has a web cam.

neilthom7 wrote:

MrsP wrote:Maybe I should explain that DrG is the operator not the victim....I mean patient in this hypothetical hip replacement to which I referred.

And what hospital would this be MrsP, it's just if I get injured I want to know where not to go

Today was a good day. Three shoulders, no screw-ups. Not bad for my first day out of re...re...rehab. Was.......was.........wasn't.......nervous. No not nervous. Not nervous at all. I....was........fine.
Happy...........no...loud...noises...in...the...OR.

One patient was kind of a jerk and I wanted to remove the entire arm but the OR nurse wouldn't let me. So we put a flap on the tendon and called it a day.

Anyone need medical assistance now???????????????

I think the boys are all busy putting Duct Tape over their web cams!

MrsP wrote:I think the boys are all busy putting Duct Tape over their web cams!

Silly boys.

Absolutely!

Although I have to say, the day I told WillyG who he had been out with the night before was one of the funniest moments I have witnessed on here!

The look on his face when he read my answer....

MrsP wrote:Now now!



That's quite enough of that!

Away and replace a hip or something!



....strength of an ox and half the brains....hope they also have the eyesight of a mole....and don't use magnifying specs during surgery!....

To all,
This was MrsP's polite and delicate way of telling me to never, ever mention in public the 2011 Heineken Cup Quarter Finals played in Milton Keynes at Stadium MK. (final result: Saints 23 - Ulster 12)
To never bring up the lovely and mellifluous quality of play by the Saints on that beautiful afternoon.
To not discuss Tiny's beautiful score through about eight Ulstermen.
That I should not even contemplate bringing up the beautiful sweeping Try in the second half by Lee Dickson.

She is truly a subtle one, our MrsP.

MrsP wrote:Absolutely!

Although I have to say, the day I told WillyG who he had been out with the night before was one of the funniest moments I have witnessed on here!

The look on his face when he read my answer....

You are a voyeur?
Thare are laws against that kind of things.



Can you send me a copy of the video?

Its available on pay-per-view

I'm sitting naked behind my webcam at the moment Mrs P.

What do you reckon?.........

I promise not to tell Mr P.

Webcam's have limited zoom abilities Jenny.

Well, I wouldn't want to ....

I was brought up to believe that if you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything!




Anyway,

Back to the rugby,

Stop that WillyG!

As I was saying, the rugby.

You could add highly illegal scrummaging to your list DrG.

And that day we were without our very own superhuman talisman 1F whereas this time around......



And, Jenny is fibbing by the way!

MrsP wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

MrsP wrote:Believe me Neil, it's nowhere near your house!

oh thats good i can rest easy............................................................................................
wait.............................................................
howd you know where u live? ....................................................

It's pretty easy as I go here everyday.

If was ever to forget I could just look outside.

Do you find it tricky to know where you live?

Whoops meant where I live lol

WillyGilly wrote:Webcam's have limited zoom abilities Jenny.

doctor_grey wrote:

MrsP wrote:Now now!



That's quite enough of that!

Away and replace a hip or something!



....strength of an ox and half the brains....hope they also have the eyesight of a mole....and don't use magnifying specs during surgery!....

To all,
This was MrsP's polite and delicate way of telling me to never, ever mention in public the 2011 Heineken Cup Quarter Finals played in Milton Keynes at Stadium MK. (final result: Saints 23 - Ulster 12)
To never bring up the lovely and mellifluous quality of play by the Saints on that beautiful afternoon.
To not discuss Tiny's beautiful score through about eight Ulstermen.
That I should not even contemplate bringing up the beautiful sweeping Try in the second half by Lee Dickson.

She is truly a subtle one, our MrsP.

sssh don't make her angry

MrsP wrote:You could add highly illegal scrummaging to your list DrG.

And that day we were without our very own superhuman talisman 1F whereas this time around......

Illegal?
Illegal?
Shock.
Horror.
Creative scrummaging, Madam. Creative scrummaging.
We are incapable of doing anything illegal. After all, we are SAINTS.

A talisman? You have one too?

I just had a wee juke at the squad we fielded that day and I'd say the one we put out on Friday night is likely to be stronger in at least 10 of the 23 places and will not be weaker in any spot.

That is of course on paper and we all know that the match will not be played on that surface.

How do you think your "now" squad compares with your "then" Grey?

Dunno if this was already posted but 1F had his operation today for the injury v Edinburgh no return date set yet.
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11009.php

Then;

(15 - 9) A D'Arcy; A Trimble, N Spence, P Wallace, S Danielli; I Humphreys, R Pienaar

(1 - 8) T Court, R Best (c), BJ Botha, J Muller, D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, P Wannenburg

Replacements (16 - 23) A Kyriacou, P McAllister, B Young, T Barker, W Faloon, P Marshall, I Whitten, C Gilroy

Now (expected);

(15-9) J Payne, T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble, P Jackson, R Pienaar

(1-8) T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c) , D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson

Replacements (16-23) R Herring, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, N Williams, P Marshall, L Marshall, C Gilroy

We are stronger almost universally across the board. Payne is better than D'Arcy, Bowe is better than Danielli, Cave is better than the sadly missed and still mourned Nevin Spence. Afoa is better than Botha, Henderson and Wilson are at least on a par with Diack and Wannenburg. The quality of replacement we have is up a gear too. Jackson is better than Humphreys already in my opinion- slightly less a match winner, but much, much less of a match loser.

The players who are still in the matchday squad- can't think of one who isn't playing better rugby now. Every single one has either improved or at least maintained the same level of performance.

I've been giving this one a bit of thought and this is the team I'd go with.

Front Row - Court, Best and Afoa. Currently one of the best units in European Rugby. Black is a good cover for Court. Court to tighthead if the situation arises.

Second Row - Muller and Tuohy. Our strongest pairing though McCombe hasn't done much wrong in any of his games. There has been a bit of criticism of Tuohy on this thread that I believe is unwarranted. He was unlucky to be yellow carded on Sunday. Look at the game again and you will see he was putting in the hits and making carries in the time he was on the pitch.

Back Row - In August if I had been picking our best back row without 1F I would have gone for Diack, Henry and Wilson. Obviously there has been the impressive form of Williams and the emergence of Henderson. McComish as well has been a revelation considering his form of last year. So thats my back row and I'd have Williams as cover and bring him on with Paul Marshall for the last quarter if we are on the front foot. Henderson to just miss out on this one as McComb will offer a bit more grunt in the scrum if needed.

Half Backs - Pienaar and Jackson. Paul Marshall as back up 9 as I said above.

Centres - Wallace and Cave. Luke Marshall as cover. Paddy Wallace's form and consistency has bee fantastic this season and while Marshall did well in Limerick and Llanelli recently, I think we need Paddy's experience in this one. Unless you play Payne at 13 (I wouldn't) then Cave is a shoo in.

Back Three - Trimble, Bowe and Payne. Trimble was excellent against Scarlets and we will need his aggressive play in this one. Gilroy would walk into most teams but in this one I am giving Bowe the nod over him. Payne is such a class player and I believe full-back is where he can be most effective for us.

Great to be at (almost) full strength and have our leaders back again. Perhaps one of the most influential returnees will be Chris Henry. We maybe missed him more than any of the others in the past month.

neilthom7 wrote:Dunno if this was already posted but 1F had his operation today for the injury v Edinburgh no return date set yet.
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11009.php

Hmm bad news there, clearly the injury wasn't clearing up itself. That's the comeback against Saints at Ravenhill out the window. The plus side is more game time for Henderson I suppose.

neilthom7 wrote:Dunno if this was already posted but 1F had his operation today for the injury v Edinburgh no return date set yet.
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11009.php

Given that we had been told he was targeting the home game against Saints I would be thinking he must have had a setback or an aggravation hence the surgery. Otherwise why wait a month unless we are depending on the NHS!

My guess is that the hope was that conservative treatment would allow him to get to the end of the season but that has not proved to be the case so the decision to just go for the op has been made.

I just hope he gets the full recovery time and it doesn't occur again. Best of luck in the recovery big fella

Anscombe Welcomes 'Tough Selection Calls'

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/27898.php

MrsP wrote:I just had a wee juke at the squad we fielded that day and I'd say the one we put out on Friday night is likely to be stronger in at least 10 of the 23 places and will not be weaker in any spot.

That is of course on paper and we all know that the match will not be played on that surface.

How do you think your "now" squad compares with your "then" Grey?

Interesting question. I haven't seen the Saints line-up, but this is based upon whom I guess we will play:

Overall I think the talent levels are about the same between the 2011 and 2012 teams. But I think the 2012 team has a bit more upside, at least as of now.

The 2011 team was unfortunately already showing the wear and tear of a long season without any real depth. The starting XV were very good, but really tired. We saw that with a dulsatory win against Perpignan in the Heineken Cup Semi final and the losses to Leicester in the Premiership semi-finals and Leinster in the Heineken Cup final. Really starting to limp towards the finish line.

The 2012 team has much better depth. But the props are a hair off the level of 2010-2011. This is such a critical part of the Saints game plan, that it might be the place to attack Saints. The problem is if that fails, then Saints do have more game breakers than 2011 and that could leave a team open.

Front Row - 2012 Tiny, Hartley, Mujati (2011 Tiny, Hartley, Mujati)
should be the same players as then. But I think Tiny and Brian M are a half step behind where they were that year. Hartley is better than before.

Second Row - 2012 Manoa, Lawes (2011 Lawes, Day)
Manoa is clearly better than Christian Day was. Lawes is a better player now than he was then, but a lot depends on how his recovery is going. His recovery plan was developed with exactly this match in mind.

Back Row - 2012 Clark, Wood, Dowson (2011 Dowson, Wood, Wilson)
This back row is probably on par. Wood is really coming into his own, Clark is getting back to the growth curve he was on. Dowson and Wilson are similar players. But they made each other better and that woin't happen on Friday. Wilson is a natural 8 and Dowson is not.

Halfbacks - 2012 Dickson, Myler (2011 Dickson, Myler)
Should be slightly better. Dickson continues to improve at Saints. His time with England will have helped a bit. Stevie is Stevie. Constant.

Centres - 2012 Waldouck, Pisi (2011 Downey, Clarke)
Tough call. Downey and Clarke were a terrific pair, better than the sum of the parts. Waldouck is more creative but something is clearly lacking. Pisi is fantastic and is a true game breaker

Wings - 2012 Artemyev, Pisi (2011 Diggin, Ashton)
Even. Artemyev is better than Diggin was, but Ashton was terrific at the time.

Fullback - 2012 Foden (2011 Foden)
Even.

Bench - the 2012 bench is much better and deeper than 2011.

Well that is good news for us then since the only place you were stronger than us was the (highly illegal) scrum!

Mind you, I don't remember the Saints looking tired in the quarter final, quite the reverse. I think the "tired" excuse only surfaced when they lost in the Final, no?

Did you say you would get over for the game at Franklin Gardens?

Rava wrote:Anscombe Welcomes 'Tough Selection Calls'

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/27898.php

Ancombe has sold me out!..... might have to hide my hat.....

MrsP wrote:Well that is good news for us then since the only place you were stronger than us was the (highly illegal) scrum!

Mind you, I don't remember the Saints looking tired in the quarter final, quite the reverse. I think the "tired" excuse only surfaced when they lost in the Final, no?

Did you say you would get over for the game at Franklin Gardens?

Saints are creative at the scrum and almost never, ever, never, ever, never, ever get penalised for illegal scrummaging. Seriously. Every referee in the world can't be wrong (well almost).

The tired excuse was already there well before that glorious/horrible final. The lads were runing on fumes for most of the last two months of that season. However, to be fair, I did watch the Ulster match again last might and Saints did look good. There were a lot of matches where they clearly were dragging.

I am coming over to Northampton only. My dad has been in and out of the hospital down in London since early November with a rapid/irregular heartbeat. I have been over two of the last three weekends to see him and are flying over again on Thursday night. Can't get to Belfast unfortunately since I need to be with him. However, as Pat Lam says, we will meet in the final.........

Best wishes to Dr Grey senior!

thanks, mate.

rodders wrote:Best wishes to Dr Grey senior!

+1. An Ulster win will sort out the heartbeat

I tell you. If we play the way we've played the last few weeks there won't be a defib battery left in the Province!

See that 1F had an ankle tendon operation yesterday out for a minimum of 12 weeks, why on earth was it not done earlier ??? That's the six nations out as well probably.

theshanker wrote:See that 1F had an ankle tendon operation yesterday out for a minimum of 12 weeks, why on earth was it not done earlier ??? That,s the six nations out as well probably.

Alternative treatments probably failed or he had a major setback. Surgery should usually be the last option, due to the risks involved!

How come teams haven't been announced yet?

Ulster XV & replacements to face Northampton Saints, Heineken Cup, Friday 7th December, Franklin's Gardens (8.00pm):
(15-9): J Payne; T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble; P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c), D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Brady, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, N Williams, P Marshall, L Marshall, C Gilroy.

Very interesting.....no second row on the bench so Diack will be covering there, but I think its a good call to include Nick Williams as an impact sub. Its a gamble leaving McComb out but I like it. Lets hope Henry doesn't get injured.

As expected really. Can't wait to see Williams come on at some point and do the 'hulk smash'. AD don't forget Hendo can cover second row as well.

Are the Saints fans confident? I think the packs will be about even but Ulsters backline will be the difference.

That's right Willie G. And Diack showed last week he can cover openside as well.
Marshall and Williams could be crucial for us in the last 15-20 minutes.
Lets hope the weather is reasonably good because there are tries in that back line. Id like to see us play some open rugby.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Very interesting.....no second row on the bench so Diack will be covering there, but I think its a good call to include Nick Williams as an impact sub. Its a gamble leaving McComb out but I like it. Lets hope Henry doesn't get injured.

Called it! Diack to cover 4-7, Henderson to cover lock.

Well presumably both Diack and Williams will get on at some point Williams to do Hulk smash and Diack to go into back row when Henderson has to move to Lock for when Muller gets tired he has been out for a while so I imagine he won't last the whole game. So good call by Anscombe having them both on the bench.

profitius wrote:Are the Saints fans confident? I think the packs will be about even but Ulsters backline will be the difference.

Profitius,
I will speak for all the Saints fans here on 606. We are cautiously optimisitc, as people should be when two good teams play each other. But certainly not more than that. My thoughts:
I think our pack is slightly better than yours:
Both front rows are terrific.
Your second row is better in the set piece, ours better and quicker in the loose.
Our back row is somewhat better.

Your halfbacks are better. Dickson is very good, but Pienaar is great.
Centres are about even (admittedly I am not too familiar with your centres)
Your wings are much better.
Our fullback is better.

My biggest concern, which I have stated before, is we cannot shut off at all during the match. If we don't play full out for all 80 minutes, I have nightmares of your wings running sprints against us.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Michael Allen
Nigel Brady
Mike McComish
Nick Williams
Are the 4 I would leave out of that bunch.

Only half right.

I would have picked the same starting 15. But I would have had McComb and Herring on the bench ahead of Brady and Williams. Not a whole heap in it at hooker though, and possibly not a bad gamble having an extra back rower either.