Keeping the Wheels on - AKA England's next EPS

First topic message reminder :

After a remarkable finish to the Autumn series Stuart Lancaster and his coaches next mission will be the new years EPS. Chosen in January it will not be open for change until Sep that year (except swaps for injuries) so he'll need to plan well and pick not only on current form but prior experience and future potential.

In the final game of the AI's the starting team that day showed the route that England rugby needs to take on the pitch; hard and aggressive up front with the pack sharing the duties of fetching, carrying and rucking amongst a core group of multi skilled players rather then selecting various specialists for one or two specific roles. In the backs we say a few glimpses of the Catt/Farrel/Lancaster triumvirate in action with Youngs getting some quick ball and kicking well, and the 10 drawing his centres up to the line at pace and actually giving Tuilagi good ball to use. The left wing and full back then create momentum from the back by beating their first man when countering and staying tall in the tackle to wait for support.

Of course there were players who failed to cover themselves in glory like wise others who were never deemed good enough to get a chance or who were only in because of multiple injuries. These I expect to see fall by the road side next year.

The current England Elite Player Squad

Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), David Paice (London Irish)
Locks
Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Anthony Allan (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), (Ugo Monye (Harlequins))
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

Players in italics were the latest changes allowed through injury or retirement (potentially the most likely to lose their spots again).

So to me the bulk of that 32 man squad looks about right, there are still quite a few players that are potentially a little worried about their places now:

Mako Vunipola (only came in for an injured Corbs but didn't look too comfy at times)
Rob Webber (Youngs looked a lot better and Hartley is still first choice)
David Paice (only came in for an injured Webber, didn't play better then Youngs or Hartley)
Mauritz Botha (just not an international lock, shown up completely by Launchberry)
Tom Palmer (anonymous around the park and not good enough at lineout time)
Courtney Lawes (injured a lot, is he big enough to partner Parling or athletic enough to partner Launchberry)
Tom Johnson (just doesn't play the style that England seem to need)
Tom Croft (injured and does his style fit England)
Phil Dowson (over 30 and can't make the match day 23)
James Haskell (Only came in for injuries, not sure if he did enough to stay)
Thomas Waldrom (pushed out of the starting lineup and hardly likely to make the bench)
Lee Dickson (can't make the match day 23)
Anthony Allan (can not make the 23, average club player)
Brad Barritt (bar one game looked out of his depth, potentially a new Noone)
Jordan Turner Hall (Like Barritt but less pace and no real vision, injured at a bad time)
Chris Ashton (A media darling but lazy in defence and pretty anonymous in most games, riding on rep at the moment)
Ugo Monye (only called up for injuries, didn't do enough)
Charlie Sharples (poor defence let him down)
Ben Foden (unlucky with an injury and now has two critical players in front of him)

Now I don't think all of these players will go, but there are a few who are near certainties.

Yappysnap's Elite Player Squad
Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchberry (London Wasps), David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), George Lowe (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints),Christian Wade (Wasps)
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The changes are
David Wilson did enough to get in to the EPS permanently
Nick Wood comes in to replace Vunipola as a trial
Tom Youngs replaces Webber as very real competition for Hartley
Dave Attwood comes in for Palmer to add some bulk and physicality if needed
James Haskell takes Johnsons place as he adds a bit more physicality and covers the back three
Billy Vunipola is trialled in Waldroms place to see his carrying game
Freddue Burns gets a permanent spot for Hodgeson
George Lowe, Billy Twelvetrees and Kyle Eastmond all come in to the squad to trial different attributes in the centres as well as cover the wings if needed.
Christian Wade comes in on the wing

Him and Brown would be pretty scary in a kicking contest, two very big boots.

As Robshaw is a Quins boy i do feel that I have to stick up for him a little; he did get through a heck of a lot of work in all of the games, those static balls were from when the ball was coming back too slowly from a ruck and he was looking to stand up in the tackle then either maul or offload to a supporting player. Unfortunately at the top level execution needs to be perfect and too often it wasn't.

Yep they got to have two of the biggest punts in the jeff.

I agree Robshaw played very well in the AI's. Reminds me of Richard Hill in that if you just watch him he gets through a ridiculous amount of ground work. I can just never forgive taking, or more to the point calling for, the ball standing still. Especially when he did it several times whilst trying to be a playmaker for the other forward because in that case not just him but two other guys on his shoulder are made useless.

As you fairly stated though much of it was often from slow ball but even so with slow ball you should just be running as hard/fast as possible to speed it up rather than be cute.

Robshaw did annoy me a little with his carrying...but i forgave him for all his other work...

I thought Tom Youngs and Launchbury made two of the biggest impacts...especially ball carrying. They actually hit the contact at full pace with aggression..really trying to get through the tackles..
Too often i see England players stopping just before impact...it absolutely baffles me why they do this...so it was such a refreshing thing to see.

I wouldnt put Hartley straight back in even ifs he's fit...as i think Youngs offers much more...

How they were allowed to do this was by the work rate and close in work by the rest of the pack...most noteably Wood, Robshaw and Cole. Ill even give Parling some credit...he didnt half get through his work.

There are signs of encouragement.

I too think Twelvetrees must be in the full side...and also must say...Goode got a lot of credit from his performances...but i was hugely impressed with Brown...even on the wing.

Agree with all that Geordie - I've been agreeing a bit to much on here lately, could do with someone aggravating me

Parling carried very well off the SH throughout the AI's I thought - something England sides of late have been terrible at. He ran clever angles, ran very hard, had good body positions and knew very well when to stay on his feet or work to the deck. One of our best players throughout I felt.

If by some miracle Lancaster does plump for 36 at IC I'd probably be happier to see Brown at FB than Goode. With Twelvetrees in we wouldn't need Goode's 'second playmaker' abilities as much. Once that's less necessary I'd say Brown is probably the stronger FB these days. He's very strong in contact, clever in defence and attack plus he's exceptional under the high ball.

One thing about Parling was that he always made sure to keep pumping his legs once he's tackled to make a few more yards and pull in another defender, too often these big players just take the easy option and drop straight to deck. Its something that Sheridan was always guilty of for England and I remember used to drive us all mad.

Watching Para play for Clermont reminded me just how important the 9 is in these situations though, its not just the pack getting us front foot ball but the 9 being quick and decisive with it. Youngs and Care both seem to go through phases of playing hell for leather and then mincing which is massively frustrating.

Agree with all that Geordie - I've been agreeing a bit to much on here lately, could do with someone aggravating me

No probs...

Actually i think Barritt is the best most effective 12 in the Prem...his offensive ability is far beyond anything which Twelvetrees or Allen...or any of the other pretenders can do...and his defence is unsurpassed...something critical at International level...

Indeed he was the very fulcrum for the victory over the full strength ALl Blacks...nothing to do with no virus...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Agree with all that Geordie - I've been agreeing a bit to much on here lately, could do with someone aggravating me

No probs...

Actually i think Barritt is the best most effective 12 in the Prem...his offensive ability is far beyond anything which Twelvetrees or Allen...or any of the other pretenders can do...and his defence is unsurpassed...something critical at International level...

Indeed he was the very fulcrum for the victory over the full strength ALl Blacks...nothing to do with no virus...

That's much better cheers! For optimum aggravation effect we should probably suggest O'Gara as Lions FH

Yappy - There have always been players culpable of 'flopping' in contact and not getting the leg drive going. Paul O'Connell was actually pretty bad for it early in his career, Borthwick and Payne from the England sides of the 'dark ages' were both terrible for it as well!

On the SH, Youngs and Care are both inconsistent but are by far the best options we've got IMO. You just have to look at the lack of quality 9's around the world at any one time to see it's a very tough position to play. Genia is the best probably, then Parra, with Fotuali'i and Aaron Smith in third but other than those 4 sides many International teams are struggling to settle on a SH. Pienaar seems to struggle for SA sometimes, all the home nations are unsettled in selection there and other than Samoa with Fotuali'i the Pacific Isles are struggling. To be honest I can't remember who's been playing there for Argentina so can't comment!

I can't really decide whether it's a recent dip in quality there or just a case that many SH's have often been inconsistent. Looking back to 03 there were a few quality 9's around though - Justin Marshall, Gregan, Joost, Pichot, Redpath, Dawson vs Bracken and Stringer playing well.

And Pichot

For optimum aggravation effect we should probably suggest O'Gara as Lions FH

Well i didnt mention that ...as i thought that was a gimme...

On another note...Wade is proving at the moment against Bath that he MUST be in the Senior EPS...another cracking try.

Pichot is noted and added Chequered. I can't believe I missed him off, when 03 came to mind as a high point for 9's he was one of the first I thought of...

Geordie - yep I would love to see Wade in the EPS. I think it was a different thread I was commenting on the wingers saying that we have loads who can score a try (Ashton,Sharples,Monye,Varndell,etc) but very few who can create one themselves as well - Wade, JSD .... Johnny May? was my thought process at the time and it hasn't changed!

With JSD and May injured Wade's got to be in the EPS at least for me.

First post in a long time! Been enjoying the Christmas celebrations a little too much. Hope everyone else did too, and is enjoying their start to 2013.

Agree with the changes most people have mentioned on here, especially including Kvesic in the EPS. The lad's quality, and was excellent playing at 7 on Friday.

Haven't seen the Wasps Bath game yet, but hearing good things regarding Wade's performance? Anyone that did watch, how was Haskell?

I saw the Northampton game, and Lawes looked very accomplished in the lineout. So much so, that I wouldn't mind seeing the EPS locks as Parling, Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood.

Attwood's inclusion is purelyu because he provides some good muscle in the pack, and what I have seen of him this season has been pretty good. He's not found the form he had at Gloucester yet, but he seems to be heading there.

Backrow is a serious head ache- Lancaster has a plethora of players to choose from, all of whom are playing excellent rugby.

Main improvement for the 6N: Continuing from King Carlos and GF's points- HITTING THE BALL FROM DEEP AND AT PACE.

Vedder

Im beginning to think we've missed the chance with Attwood. He just doesnt seem to be doing it.

I think Launchbury and Parling are starters now.

Lawes..is the biggest frustration...i want to see him stay injury free and get a good run...see how much form he can really show. He's still only 23 isnt he...thats young.

I also think Kitchener is looking a useful operator..but is second fiddle to Parling.

The other one is Kruis at Sarries...who has had some seriously impressive reports...and against Munster i believe was simply stand out and that was at 6. Is he another in the Launchbury mould??

Any read the Nick Easter interview?
The word bitter springs to mind! Nothing new in what he said though, I believe the same sentiments were aired when he was first dropped.

" I may be fat old and useless but so is Waldrom and only one of us is english"

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/175353.html

He has been in the form of his life though, must be very frustrating ...especially as he never really did it for England.
He'd be my pick if the there was no consideration for the future, but Lancaster is trying to build along term ethos and reward those who buy into it. Picking a 34 year old doesnt really sit in that, unless hes related to Simon Shaw.

As I mentioned before its quite annoying as an England fan to see so many of the old donkeys fit an on form now they are no longer part of the long term strategy. When you think of all the god awful games the likes of Borthwick, Stevens, Hodgson and Sheridan have had for England its pretty galling to see them turning it on week in week out for their clubs. Even Matthew Tait has puit a solid couple of months in without going down injured!

True PSW, very true. Although, Tait is still young enough to make a real go at being re-selected into the EPS. Unbelievable he's only 26- he's been around so long that I always think he's older.

Interesting article about Easter!

I would think that ship has sailed though, my impression of him was that he was a bit too 'old school' and maybe wasnt the model pro. I agree with him about Waldrom though, he can't be ditched fast enough.

Of topic, but with regards to Simon Shaw, did he get much better as he got older, or was it more that when Johnson, Kay and Grewcock all retired, nobody as good came onto the scene and so he just looked great when compared to Nick Kennedy etc?

The other thing I would add about Launchbury is that I think they're grooming him for the line-out.

Having watched the Wasps v Bath game, in which he was excellent along with Wade he seemed to be the one calling. If that's to be the case a 4. J Launchbury 5. C Lawes lock pairing could be on for Engalnd. That would look to have the potential of a Johnson/Kay set-up about it.

Kvesic was the best back row on the pitch v Tigers and wouldn't mind seeing him replace Dowson.

We could also see a swap in the SR Botha for L Deacon. I know Deacon is getting on a bit, but his experience and line-out calling will be valuable to England in the short-term.

Deacon still class,ditch palmer and botha for deacon and launchbury.kitchenar,kruis,savage +1 in the saxons (Robson)?

Tom Savage! Yes sickofwendy- get that lad in the Saxons.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I wonder if instead of Dickson he'll find room for another young SH

Young Robson at Glaws is showing well, still with development to come. Might be a bit early for him this 6N, but watch this space.

gregortree wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I wonder if instead of Dickson he'll find room for another young SH

Young Robson at Glaws is showing well, still with development to come. Might be a bit early for him this 6N, but watch this space.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Interesting article about Easter!

I would think that ship has sailed though ...

... but with regards to Simon Shaw, did he get much better as he got older

I find that at little one rule for one, one for the other. As a Quins fan I am bias, but he's been form 8 of the AP year and based on meritocracy he has earnt a place. He has history though, and not all of it good! He act as a great long toothed level head though, and keep Morgan & Thomas the Tank on their toes if they fall off form a little.

Too be fair after years of seriously poor second rows...

If we cant get a top class second row combo..and indeed back up for years to come from the below...then we're doing something sadly wrong...

Launchbury
Parling
Kruis
Savage
Kitchener
Slater
Matthews
Lawes
Garvey

bluestonevedder wrote:True PSW, very true. Although, Tait is still young enough to make a real go at being re-selected into the EPS. Unbelievable he's only 26- he's been around so long that I always think he's older.

+1 He's only 26 (same age as Wood,Robshaw,Hartley) already has 38 caps to his name and hasn't played for England in a couple of years.

If he keeps stringing good performances together for the Tigers, and hopefully stays in the back 3, I'd love to see him back in an England shirt. I've said on a few threads recently we've got a ton of wingers who can finish tries but very few who can also create one with a bit of magic - Wade and JSD I could think of in this category. Hopefully if Tait can get back to form and stay fit we can add another guy with that capability to the squad.

On a side note I've got really high hopes for Johnny May to come into that category alongside Wade and JSD in the coming season or two when he hopefully stays fit!

I don't know why, but I've always been a big fan of Tait. Maybe he just has that spark that others don't have? He certainly has acceleration and pace and is a superb broken field runner.

Big boot too. If he can stay fit and find form I'd happily have him in the side.

AlastairW wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:Interesting article about Easter!

I would think that ship has sailed though ...

... but with regards to Simon Shaw, did he get much better as he got older

I find that at little one rule for one, one for the other. As a Quins fan I am bias, but he's been form 8 of the AP year and based on meritocracy he has earnt a place. He has history though, and not all of it good! He act as a great long toothed level head though, and keep Morgan & Thomas the Tank on their toes if they fall off form a little.

Being the form 8 doesn't necessarily mean he should get picked. On meritocracy C.Hodgson and Borthwick would be back in the England squad too. I doubt most England fans would want that.

True but equally they wouldn't want Dowson Palmer and Waldron either

True and I don't think they'll last long.

So should i be looking for this team in the 6n??

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Goode

And this when i go to KP to watch the Saxons v Scotland...

1 Vunipola
2 Gray / Bucannan / ??
3 PDJ
4 Savage
5 Kitchener
6 Kruis
7 Kvesic
8 Vunipola

9 Simpson
10 ?
11 Wade
12 Waldouck
13 Daly
14 May
15 Foden

Corbs is recently injured, and Jonny May is just coming back from sick list at Glaws.

I reckon that starting 15 will probably be bang on GF (minus Corbs), unless of course, a bolter makes it onto the left wing in place of Brown. Possibly Wade given his performances, or maybe we'll see Foden slot back in. Personally, I think Brown is too good to leave out at the moment, and would see how he goes on the wing. Hopefully he's worked on his support lines.

Saxons squad is an interesting one. I like the lock pairing a lot there, but also wouldn't mind seeing Attwood and Kitchener at 4 and 5, with Savage at 6.

A backrow of 6. Savage 7. Kvesic and 8. Vunipola would be seriously aggressive and stoic.

At hooker, I'd actually go with Mike Haywood of Saints. I think he did a brilliant job deputising for Hartley during his ban, and looks like a class act. A strong carrier, with a turn of pace and good scrummager, he's got the makings of a quality player.

Simpson deserves a shot at 9 in the Saxons.

Who knows about the Saxons fly half position. It all comes down to Flood's inevitable ban. If he misses a few 6N games, Burns will be on the bench for the EPS, so the Saxons 10 could be...Ford?

beshocked wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:Interesting article about Easter!

I would think that ship has sailed though ...

... but with regards to Simon Shaw, did he get much better as he got older

I find that at little one rule for one, one for the other. As a Quins fan I am bias, but he's been form 8 of the AP year and based on meritocracy he has earnt a place. He has history though, and not all of it good! He act as a great long toothed level head though, and keep Morgan & Thomas the Tank on their toes if they fall off form a little.

Being the form 8 doesn't necessarily mean he should get picked. On meritocracy C.Hodgson and Borthwick would be back in the England squad too. I doubt most England fans would want that.

Very true ... That would have been my bias talking there then

beshocked wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:Interesting article about Easter!

I would think that ship has sailed though ...

... but with regards to Simon Shaw, did he get much better as he got older

I find that at little one rule for one, one for the other. As a Quins fan I am bias, but he's been form 8 of the AP year and based on meritocracy he has earnt a place. He has history though, and not all of it good! He act as a great long toothed level head though, and keep Morgan & Thomas the Tank on their toes if they fall off form a little.

Being the form 8 doesn't necessarily mean he should get picked. On meritocracy C.Hodgson and Borthwick would be back in the England squad too. I doubt most England fans would want that.

And Stevens! From what I've seen, the man's found a rich vein of form since retiring from international! Not to mention, he's found some pace

Ah i havent heard about Corbs injury...is it serious?
Does that mean Marler will start the 6n at LH.
Marler, Youngs, Cole....well its certainly aggressive

The Saxons could be all kinds of lineups...so many options. I think Kitchener will be the lineout guy...but yeah...Attwood, Savage, Kruis..even Slater could all fill that power role beside him.

Daly has impressed me at 13 for Wasps...but maybe a bit more power is needed at 12. WHo is Bell who plays 12 for Wasps...is he another young English lad? He looks pretty damn good.

Kvesic is a must at 7 if he is not in the Seniors.

Front row...well TH is a concern. Even the young pretenders are a year or so two early for the Saxons i think.

Anyone thought (with the retirees) that its because theyre not "over training " and constantly away with England etc that they are constantly fresh and able to play at the peak of their game.

See Easter, Stevens, Borthwick (though i think he had a poor team around him ), Johnny W, Sheridan etc etc etc

GeordieFalcon wrote:So should i be looking for this team in the 6n??

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Goode

And this when i go to KP to watch the Saxons v Scotland...

1 Vunipola
2 Gray / Bucannan / ??
3 PDJ
4 Savage
5 Kitchener
6 Kruis
7 Kvesic
8 Vunipola

9 Simpson
10 ?
11 Wade
12 Waldouck
13 Daly
14 May
15 Foden

Something very similar to that is pretty likely, although (contrary to what I said earlier because I forgot about him) Foden would probably oust Brown on the wing for the senior side..and the other would be on the bench ...and Corbiserio is an injury doubt

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah i havent heard about Corbs injury...is it serious?
Does that mean Marler will start the 6n at LH.
Marler, Youngs, Cole....well its certainly aggressive

The Saxons could be all kinds of lineups...so many options. I think Kitchener will be the lineout guy...but yeah...Attwood, Savage, Kruis..even Slater could all fill that power role beside him.

Daly has impressed me at 13 for Wasps...but maybe a bit more power is needed at 12. WHo is Bell who plays 12 for Wasps...is he another young English lad? He looks pretty damn good.

Kvesic is a must at 7 if he is not in the Seniors.

Front row...well TH is a concern. Even the young pretenders are a year or so two early for the Saxons i think.

Think Corbs has got an ongoing knee injury, which keeps flaring. Any knee injury is bad, but especially a reccuring one. Latest I heard was that it's keeping him out of England's 6N opener, but stumbled across this this morning: http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/369209/Injured-Alex-Corbisiero-is-a-worry

Marler would be the obvious starting LH if Corbs is out- though hopefully he's improved from his woeful display against OZ. He looked good at the weekend against the Chiefs, so finfers crossed.

I keep forgetting about Daly! Quality little player. Heck of a boot too and could give 1/2p a run for his money in a kicking comp. Incidently, Ollie Lindsay-Hague looked lethal with ball in hand over the weekend for Harlequins too, if his kicking was a little wayward. He could be a Saxons bolter.

There are two Bells at Wasps- one Tommy is a fly half and is 20. The other is Chris who plays centre and is 30ish...?

Slater is a good shout too GF- he played out of his skin this weekend for Tigers.

Ah i think its Chris im thinking of..wears a scrum cap. He looked good..but if hes in his 30's not much chance of an England call ha ha...

Mate I've made the same mistake loads of times. He's actually quite a slcik player

Would like to see Olly Lindsay-Hague given a chance in the Saxons...proved himself at sevens and tore LW to ribbons last weekend. Just the kind of heads up, play what you see type we could do with more of in the England setup.

The question is how raw or inexperienced are they gonna be going into the Saxons?

I know the Saxons is a Development type team...BUT surely those players should still have at least a season or two of regular top flight rugby under their belt...unless they're really exceptional.

Does this Lindsay Hague fall into that category?

The squad announcement is 12.45, but the Telegraph are annoucing a few selections: Strettle, Launchbury, Twelvetrees, and Burns all set to be promoted apparently.

Eastmond, Billy Vunipola and Tomkins set to be named in Saxons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9789065/England-call-on-David-Strettle-and-rugby-league-imports-Joel-Tomkins-and-Kyle-Eastmond.html

This might mean Waldrom is still in the EPS and likely reserve No.8. Unless of course, Haskell is seen to be the substitute 8...

GeordieFalcon wrote:The question is how raw or inexperienced are they gonna be going into the Saxons?

I know the Saxons is a Development type team...BUT surely those players should still have at least a season or two of regular top flight rugby under their belt...unless they're really exceptional.

Does this Lindsay Hague fall into that category?

Lindsay-Hague has loads of experience on the 7s circuit, hence his wonderful running style that tore apart LW's defence. His kicking from hand wasn't great though, and would need work. It's probably too early for a Saxons call- maybe wait a season or two like you say GF, to get some proper 1st rugby experience. I'm not even sure if fullback is his likely future position??

Im not sure on the Strettle call there...

I really think we have better options...

My thoughts exactly. I think he's a cracking finisher, but he did nothing in SA, and his defence worries me.

Yup...and does he offer anything that Wade, May, or even Varndell and Eastmond dont offer plus more...

How can you include Strettle over players who score regularly in the Prem and are younger.

Think his score this weekend was his first of the season? That's not a great return. I actually think Saracens have a better winger in James Short. I love his style of play, and wish he would get some more game time!

I also don't think Croft will/should be included.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yup...and does he offer anything that Wade, May, or even Varndell and Eastmond dont offer plus more...

How can you include Strettle over players who score regularly in the Prem and are younger.

It wouldn't surprise me if some Wade and May (possibly Varndell) are called up for the Saxons later this afternoon. I have to agree with Bomber's bringing Launchbury, Burn & 36 up into the EPS.

If an EPS player isn't on form i'm sure they'll *cough, cough* be released to their club for medical following a errr ... tight calf muscle ... and we'll see one of the Saxons step up.

I haven't had a chance to see Wade's defense recently as i haven't seen a lot of Wasps games, but his attack is still electric.

AlastairW i'd love Wade and May to be in the Saxons at least, although I know May's just returning from injury and consequently hasn't really had a chance to prove himself this season.

Reckon Daly from Wasps could sneak into the Saxons too...

bluestonevedder wrote:The squad announcement is 12.45, but the Telegraph are annoucing a few selections: Strettle, Launchbury, Twelvetrees, and Burns all set to be promoted apparently.

Eastmond, Billy Vunipola and Tomkins set to be named in Saxons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9789065/England-call-on-David-Strettle-and-rugby-league-imports-Joel-Tomkins-and-Kyle-Eastmond.html

This might mean Waldrom is still in the EPS and likely reserve No.8. Unless of course, Haskell is seen to be the substitute 8...

Are Tompkins and Eastmond getting called up under the Hape/Vanilkolo/Farrel snr/Paul rule that if they used to play League they must be really good regardless of what they are actually producing for their clubs?
Farrel Jnr and Ashton got rescued in time, but Im yet to see much from the other two to suggest they are much of a force in Union

Strettle presumably promoted (again) for his awesome try scoring record of 1 in 12 caps, and 9 in 47 games for Saracens. Any winger who cant even score when hes over the line and pressing the ball on the ground infront the ref has a problem. Now Im the first to say that wingers shouldnt be judged solely on their try scoring record ( although it should be noted) but its not like he offers a lot in other aspects of his play. Hes not a crash ball option or got slick hands to help out in the middle, hes not got strong "fullback" skills ...but he can tackle a bit. So why not pick Wilkinson or Joe Worsely there?
I really dont get why Lancaster has such a hard on for him...its not like hes even young and one who can be shaped and moulded into a player for the future. It smacks of this ongoing issue with the England backs who are hampered by conservatism and risk management rather than seeing them as an attacking force first.


Burns is a no brainer with Hodgson pensioned and Flood in a dubious state, and Twelvetrees surely long overdue. Launchberry didnt givehim much a choice after the NZ game either. BV..fair enough, I dont think he needs rushing into the senior squad yet and really his brother ideally would be in the Saxons with him....one thing Lancasters teams have generally been strong on ( if we ignore robshaws captaincy) is having players who step straight in and dont look overawed by tests....cant really say that for Billys brother.

Shame to say it about my own side but I think there's quite a bit of bias towards Saracens if you are indeed correct bluestonevedder

PSW I agree. I wouldn't have Strettle in the EPS ahead of Wade or Varndell.

To be fair to Strettle though he did score vs Munster too. I think he has 2 tries plus 2 assists from the last 4 games. Not enough though.

Agree about Tomkins and Eastmond. They need more time IMO. To be fair to Tomkins though he's been alright though.